Power Kite Forum - LEI's are better after all

LEI's are better after all

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Drewculous - 22-7-2009 at 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tridude
have to say for turns, the 13m Venom is fast.........Im looking forward ro flying BBobs 12m Syn

That charger vid that was posted looks like the charger has some mean turning abilities... Turns faster than the other arc vids ive seen :thumbup:

snobdr - 22-7-2009 at 06:10 AM

But thats kinda lost if you on a 15 to match the power of my 12 isnt it?

DenisLaMenace - 22-7-2009 at 06:36 AM

end of file

this thread is now in read-only mode

:wee::wee::wee:

leebrianh - 22-7-2009 at 08:00 AM

All those talks make me want Speed2 10M and North Vegas 08 8M.

nwsurfwakeskate - 22-7-2009 at 09:00 AM

read only mode? hmm I guess this shouldn't work then.

I was out on my 12m S2 the other day. matching and outperforming the power of a 10m-15m SLE

Funny thing happened while I was out. I had to rescue a guy on a north kite while I was on the speed 2 12m. he was up wind farther then anybody sitting in the water without his board and his kite taco'ed slowly pulling him downwind. his board was about 30 yards up wind of him.

I was about even with his kite when I saw this. got to his board in one tack. downwinded back to him dropped his board off went on another tack. came back asked if he was alright. he said something was wrong with his kite. so I went down next to his kite. parked mine at zenith and started fiddling with his. turns out it just seemed like the wingtips were hooked up on eachother keeping it taco'ed and therefore impossible to relaunch. So I messed with it. freed up the wingtip and relaunched him. got my kite away from his and watched him ride away.

He thanked me later on for saving his @SS

I feel the need for speed :smug:

one last thing about durability. I'll phrase this as a question so you guys can figure it out.

what would you rather do? spend a few hours/days searching for a pinhole leak and then waiting a few hours after patching it before you can pump your kite and fly?

or

spend 5-10 minutes doing a mixer test and resetting things back to you're preferred tune?

snobdr referenced leaks vs stretching as similar. I don't see them as similar at all. leaks require repairs and repair materials. bridles stretching requires a pair of hands and eyes to make some adjustments. maybe someone else can blow holes in my argument though.

dylanj423 - 22-7-2009 at 11:31 AM

blow holes.... lol

tridude - 22-7-2009 at 01:01 PM

it sure does say enough....................my 15 has more top end than a 12m bow...............snob where on the coast are you? I wouldnt mind flying a weekend session with you...........................

_thephantom_ - 22-7-2009 at 05:33 PM

these kites have potential for real fun factor

bert-ernie-kites.jpg - 28kB

bloah - 22-7-2009 at 06:08 PM

Was just out on my 16 LEI in 8 knots. Staying upwind on spleene door no problem. At times had to sign the kite when it was lulling. Then wind died suddenly completely, was swiming with it for 20 minutes. Thanks god I had an LEI, Can't imagine myself swimming with my ex 17 meter speed in 2 meter waves for half kilometer.

nwsurfwakeskate - 22-7-2009 at 07:38 PM

wow that sounds like it sucked big time....

that's why I don't even bother with wind less then 14mph. its just too unpredictable and can die or pickup without warning.

I've self rescued on a SA1.5 17m a few times....
depending on how rough those seas were i would almost prefer to roll up the kite and swim in with it on my board regardless of if its a foil or an LEI. swimming in kites sucks and is incredibly slow. on the other hand, if you had enough wind for the kite to pull you back in self rescue mode then odds are you probably would have been able to keep an arrow flying.

snobdr - 23-7-2009 at 01:00 PM

heres a question
what would u rather have?
I kite that flys like it should the first time you fly it or
One that flys like crap the first time, then in frustration you spend endless hours on the internet searching for the cure, then another session of frustration trying to get it to fly right , more searching , more tinkering with lines, more frustration..............

I can find a pinhole leak in a bladder in less then 5 minutes, Another 5 to pull the bladder, Stick on a patch wich comes with the kite, or if i dont have one borrow one from another kiter because most fly LEIs anyway, another 5 mins to put the bladder back in, and it flies like new.

carltb - 23-7-2009 at 01:23 PM

OR JUST FLY ARCS!!!!

snobdr - 23-7-2009 at 01:35 PM

LOL

nwsurfwakeskate - 23-7-2009 at 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
heres a question
what would u rather have?
I kite that flys like it should the first time you fly it or
One that flys like crap the first time, then in frustration you spend endless hours on the internet searching for the cure, then another session of frustration trying to get it to fly right , more searching , more tinkering with lines, more frustration..............

I can find a pinhole leak in a bladder in less then 5 minutes, Another 5 to pull the bladder, Stick on a patch wich comes with the kite, or if i dont have one borrow one from another kiter because most fly LEIs anyway, another 5 mins to put the bladder back in, and it flies like new.

a kite that flies like it should when you first buy it.

so the link must have been designed to fly like crap then right?

at least it will never be as bad as the 06 waroo :smilegrin:

I think that's my new favorite quote

to be fair. all the 09 kites seem to be pretty good. makes me a little excited for 2010 :shocked2:

csa_deadon - 23-7-2009 at 09:26 PM

Ice cream is the best!!!!!!!

Soft serve is for sissies

:moon:

csa_deadon - 23-7-2009 at 09:31 PM

One other thought.

All you guys who fly on spectra are just plain goofy.
Why fly spectra when you can fly with KEVLAR lines, and have the entire beach/soccer field/snow field/ocean to yourself!!!

:evil:

awindofchange - 24-7-2009 at 11:08 AM

Kevlar....LOL!!! CSA, I love reading your posts, thanks for the chuckle. You know I will be thinking about that next time I am at the soccer park.

nwsurfwakeskate - 24-7-2009 at 11:16 AM

no no no kevlar is crap...you gotta be using aramid!

wait....those 2 things are the same.....lol

csa_deadon - 24-7-2009 at 11:32 AM

Back in the day of Catch the wind the fly line of choice was kevlar. Those of us on the kite crews wouldn't be caught dead flying anything else at D-river or Moolack Beach. Due to the large number of Gayla "Bat" kites in the air.

The real reason ARCS are better in the water

vtliter - 24-7-2009 at 12:18 PM

As no one else has touched on the REAL advantage of ARCS and autozenith, please allow me to verbalize the most important attribute:
The ability to stop your session, stand in waist deep water, pull your "stuff" out of your shorty, and take a good long piss while the kite just floats over your head. Hands off the bar, no worries, no diving kites, no getting yanked around while you try to take care of business.
Now let's see if you LEI flyers can pull that off with as little hassle.
Bet you're reconsidering ARCS now eh?

DenisLaMenace - 24-7-2009 at 12:21 PM

Hey mr Vermont

dont do that in Lake Champlain, I ride there too ;-)

Quote:

Originally posted by vtliter
As no one else has touched on the REAL advantage of ARCS and autozenith, please allow me to verbalize the most important attribute:
The ability to stop your session, stand in waist deep water, pull your "stuff" out of your shorty, and take a good long piss while the kite just floats over your head. Hands off the bar, no worries, no diving kites, no getting yanked around while you try to take care of business.
Now let's see if you LEI flyers can pull that off with as little hassle.
Bet you're reconsidering ARCS now eh?

awindofchange - 24-7-2009 at 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by csa_deadon
Back in the day of Catch the wind the fly line of choice was kevlar. Those of us on the kite crews wouldn't be caught dead flying anything else at D-river or Moolack Beach. Due to the large number of Gayla "Bat" kites in the air.

I got a couple team chevron Hawiians and a few NRS's that I need to pull out and fly. Got a couple dozen sets of Kevlar lines too. Guess it's about time to dig those babies out of the bag and put em back in the air. Hmmmm, I just remembered I also have a custom made 7 stack of 3/4 Hawaiian's.....Yea, I gotta get out a bit more.

burritobandit - 24-7-2009 at 02:10 PM

Quote:

Auto-Peenith?

tridude - 24-7-2009 at 04:12 PM

i just do in the board shorts or wet suit.........................its a surf thang...................... :lol:

:duh::duh:

csa_deadon - 24-7-2009 at 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by awindofchange

Quote:

Those Hawaiian Team kites were great for turning heads. IMO probably the loudest framed kite ever produced, next to the NSR when it was set up right. Speaking of stacks gonna have to reenter the garage and dig around. May have a 24 stack of "Rainbows, or Hyperkites" (I hope)

DenisLaMenace - 24-7-2009 at 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tridude
i just do in the board shorts or wet suit.........................its a surf thang...................... :lol:

:duh::duh:

last time I pee'd in my wetsuit, that's how it ended

csa_deadon - 24-7-2009 at 08:18 PM

:lol:

csa_deadon - 24-7-2009 at 08:22 PM

Alright I have to make this official. So after 13 reply's in a row that are off subject this thread has been officially hijacked!:P

speleopower - 26-7-2009 at 09:30 AM

LEI's suck and that's final! Show me a 10 year old LEI that rips. Oh oopss sorry....there's none.

Thread back on topic.

I have a classic very rare '02 North Rhino for cheap since they are such great kites I'll let a PKF member have it for $300. Oh, it's barely been used mostly since it pretty much sucks. But's it's a classic collectors kite now!

Thread back on topic.

snobdr - 26-7-2009 at 05:09 PM

But no foil guys seem to be able to explain why they suck.

Todd - 26-7-2009 at 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DenisLaMenace

Quote:

Originally posted by tridude
i just do in the board shorts or wet suit.........................its a surf thang...................... :lol:

:duh::duh:

last time I pee'd in my wetsuit, that's how it ended

Back off topic! How did you get that picture of me!?! :ticking:

snobdr - 26-7-2009 at 06:15 PM

Cant explain it so go off topic huh

csa_deadon - 26-7-2009 at 08:47 PM

I won't even try to explain why one is better, or why one is worse. I for one have never flown an LEI. I have no ambition to fly one cause I'm to lazy to use a pump. I like what I got. I'm sure when compared fixed bridal vs. closed fixed bridal vs. LEI vs. Twin skin each has it's pros and cons.
snobdr if you prefer LEI's over everything else, great fly what makes you happy. I like fixed bridal and twin skin. I also like Lamborghini over Ferrari, Ford over GM, and strawberry ice cream over chocolate.

Bottom line is this people. Don't knock what other people fly. Keep an open mind and try to learn from others experience. snobdr feel free to u2u me. I would love to hear your take on LEI's in general and which model you prefer.

This kind of reminds me of the hay day of sport kiting. T.O.L. vs Chicago Fire vs etc.
We each know what we love, and everything else sucks!! :crazy:

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 08:32 AM

So im out this weekend kiting with my buddy that flys foils. Winds are right around 15 but up and down with some gusting. We both setup, me my Rebel 12M him his 12M P4. Oh course his setup is half the time. I help him launch and go over and get my harness on. By the time i have my harness on he's back. I land him and he explains he tried a mod to get it to fly better but obviously didnt work. About 15 min later hes ready to go again, so i launch him and out he goes. I quickly self launch and join him. Hes riding his 54 door and im on a 40 WLF. Im having no problem staying upwind pulling some small floaty jumps, watching him struggle just to stay upwind at all.
After about maybe a 35-45 min session hes a few hundred yards downwind walking back up as im getting landed. We chill for a bit and i help him doing mixer test and making adjustments (2 sets of hands and 2 sets of eyes). We fuel up and head out again, I have to help him launch and i self launch. Wind is up a bit more and hes staying upwind for now. Struggling the whole time with tip tucking and the kite generally not holding shape with the little bit of gusting. Im nicely powered trying new moves. Within 20 mins the wind dropps and hes again gowing downwind. with another walk back.
In the meantime i see a guy setting up his Neo 11M so i head over and chat with him a while. Hes been kiting for little over a year. Got this kite for a deal. Watch him setup and help him launch. He heads out and also goes downwind having all kinds of problems Its not long before he puts the kite into the water and then struggles for 10 or so mins trying to relaunch to no avail and gathers things up. Once hes back on shore he says it was hard to handle, and it was like carring 50 pounds of wet back pack. Shame his other kite was only a 9M LEI or he would have been riding.
Back to helping my bud make yet another Bridal adjustment and our 3rd session wasnt much better. This time he didnt let himself go as far downwind, Guess he was tired of walking back.
Me, i was still holding ground still jumping. Good thing he was having such problems with the P4 as he was able to watch me from shore trying air to blind landings. Thanks to his tips i actually landed one.
So for that day, everyone on an LEI(id say probably 25 people) had good riding. My bud did some riding, some walking, and some adjusting. The other guy with the neo did some uncontrolled downwind, a bit of trying to relaunch, and a walk with 50 pounds of wet kite.
LEIs better? They sure were that day!!!

nwsurfwakeskate - 27-7-2009 at 09:04 AM

I used to ride my 15m P4 when people were on 11-14m inflatables. it seems to me that a 15m P4 has less pull then a 15m SLE.

I have also found it very difficult to go upwind on a P4 unless I am "powered"

if you were on a 12m Rebel its no surprise someone on a 12m P4 would be underpowered. that kite is basically C-shaped and has little to no low end. not to mention flysurfer screwed up big time and released it before they got the tune right. that's wasn't the case with the Pulse 2 or Speed 2.

As for the NEO. I don't know anything about them. personally I was very skeptical of them being a good water kite since they are HQ's "FIRST" water kite. I assume that means its bound to have some quirks. Flysurfer has been making water relaunchable kites for I think almost 10 years now. I think Peter Lynn has been doing it for a similar amount of time too.

I can't believe you're still trying to argue this point. You aren't going to convert anybody here. Just make people irritated that you can't seem to "agree to disagree"

I flew C-kites before I switched to foils. I switched to foils because I liked them better. I have since tried several new bow's and hybrids and I am still keeping my foils. I'll continue to try new kites regardless of there design as long as I can. if I decide to switch to a new design I will do so based off of my own opinion. not the one someone else tried to shove down my throat.

nwsurfwakeskate - 27-7-2009 at 09:19 AM

btw since some of you guys think inflatables are so great I figured I'd throw this up there.

2008 10m Eclipse Thruster Kite, Bar, Bag, Lines

arguably the best SLE on the market by some.....

I need money to pay bills. u2u me if interested. I'll be putting it on ebay today or tomorrow.

$450obo + shipping

kiteNH - 27-7-2009 at 09:30 AM

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 09:48 AM

Oh well in another thread people were saying how great Neos were and recomending it as a good crossover kite to someone who was new to depower. Didnt look to good from what i saw.
As far as the P4 it has a much flatter shape then my rebel. Its nowhere even close to a c shape. It should rival the power of my 12 rebel. I didnt even add that my bud is like 20 pounds lighter then me.

_thephantom_ - 27-7-2009 at 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
Oh well in another thread people were saying how great Neos were and recomending it as a good crossover kite to someone who was new to depower. Didnt look to good from what i saw.

You are unfortunately suffering from the "last word syndrome" and like all zealots on a mission, you are prone to errors of fact.

I fly NEO's on Water, land and last weekend snow for the first time so perfect for me. I do not give a toss if they are for you or not, nor do I value your opinion for telling me what is best for me.

NEOS as the thread you have mentioned above are rated as intermediate to expert, and I still think it is a good cross over foil for some one looking to advance - so why dont you reread the post and correct your statement.

In fact can i quote you on the same thread

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr

posted on 7-20-2009 at 12:15 AM

Yea ok, im sorry the neo is the perfect first depower kite.

Snobdr -I think that speaks volumes for your credibility

for people who want a good crossover kite, i like the NEO, but like all good multipurpose devices its ok at everything, not a specialist at one thing. Make your own mind up as to what you want to do.

As for Snobdr, people will make their own mind up - you have had a opinion, its a good one - but- along with my favourite saying "opinions are like arseholes - everyones got one" you have unfortunately disappeared up yours.

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 02:35 PM

Lets see my post you have quoted was in sarcasm. If you had truley read the whole post you would see i was against it. The originator of that thread had posted he had been static flying for some time and wanted to try a depower for mostly landboarding and possibly in water. He also stated he might just buy a water specific kite.
Everyone chimed in and said how wounderful the neo was, and it was the perfect kite for him. I even think he bought one.
I bet if you asked the guy that had one this weekend he wount agree with you at all. Thought it was said that they were so easy to relaunch off water which seemed to be total BS as this guy tried for 10 mins.
GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!!!
Once again it seems that rather then post facts or experences for or against, sum would rather throw stones. I have never told someone what they should ride. I have only posted my experences on why in general LEIs are a better all around kite.

Maven454 - 27-7-2009 at 02:41 PM

I do so love the way that snobdr will use watching a single person having problems as a total condemnation of a kite. Apparently the possibility that maybe the person involved was lousy never occurs to him...

nwsurfwakeskate - 27-7-2009 at 02:44 PM

I saw this guy once who was having a terrible time trying to drive this car with a manual transmission. some guy came up to him and said my car always goes 100% of the time when I push the gas pedal down, its an automatic. the guy with the manual thought that was great and was frustrated and pissed off that he had been "tricked" in to buying a car with a manual.

not exactly a true story but you get the idea. manuals aren't for everybody but the people who drive them know that there is something very special about them.

snobdr will you hurry up and reply to this with the last word again so this thread can die?

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 02:48 PM

The kiter in question was still a novice, but could stay upwind. This was a new kite to him. This same kite was sugested as a good kite for a kiter with no depower experence, and no water experence.
Now is it really the best choice for him?
He was willing to get another water specific kite when the time came.
Wouldnt an apex or montana been a better choice? Then have bought a water specific kite when he was ready for that?

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 02:57 PM

Heck this same LEI vs Foil can be discussed in a civil manner on other forums but cannot here. I thought with all the foil guys here there would be some valid points made. No just useless banter and let this die. In the beginning i stated that this site jams foils down your throat. It does. the neo thread proves it. It was not the best kite for the guy. Yet you all posted how great a kite it was. Yea for a good kiter, not a beginner. Im sure he will have a great intro to water kiting.

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 02:58 PM

I apologize, there were a few good points made by some posters.

rudeboysaude - 27-7-2009 at 04:03 PM

I learned on bridled closed cell foils. Yeah, it was tougher then an LEI. I drug my water filled kite in lots of times. But I made a choice to kite with foils. I didn't like LEIs, still don't. It was a personal choice because they work the best for me and it's what I like to ride. After a few crappy sessions I got the relaunch down. Now it's a piece of cake. I haven't drug in a wet foil for many many years and never miss a launch.

It basically all comes down to what you want to choose and whatever you choose, you're going to suggest to others. Obviously it made sense to you why you went that path, but try to be open to the fact that others don't always agree with you and will choose different paths.

Foil vs LEI is never a civilized debate and never will be. Fly lots of kites, pick the route you want to go, and have fun with it. The grass is never greener. Each side has it pluses and minuses and this topic will go on forever and in the end, people will choose what they want anyway. That's why forums are great. A bunch of people voicing opinions on things which basically all come down to making a personal choice on whether you believe it or not.

domdino - 27-7-2009 at 04:03 PM

" I thought with all the foil guys here there would be some valid points made. No just useless banter and let this die."

this is exactly why i've given up replying to this thread. You believe one thing and clearly don't listen to any of the very pertinent points made for the argument on both sides, so whats the point? You'll just shun any opinion opposing your own and tell us about an inexperienced kiter having a hard time on a kite not designed for him, the psycho4 is an advanced kite for someone who knows what they're doing and knows how to get the most out of the kite, if that makes it a bad kite then so be it, but if you know what you're doing then you can have a bloody amazing time on that kite, just as you can on a zillion other kites out there of all shapes and sizes.

Can we just all agree with this one closing statement?

KITES ARE GOOD.

csa_deadon - 27-7-2009 at 04:26 PM

SINGLE LINE KITES ARE THE BOMB. MULTI LINE KITES SUCK!!! :lol:

_thephantom_ - 27-7-2009 at 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
Lets see my post you have quoted was in sarcasm.

oh ok well when reading your posts its important for the readers to discern whether you are being sarcastic, helpful, obtuse, or well meaning.

So when I read what you write I will in future take it with a raised eyebrow and learn to ignore you. {sound advice for others as well}

For what its worth and I know it wont make a shred of difference to you - I have never had any trouble relaunching my foils from the water, my experience has always been positive and I can recommend these sorts of kites based on my experience with them.

I have also never had any problem relaunching my Waroo either.

:singing::singing:

PHREERIDER - 27-7-2009 at 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PHREERIDER
i loved tube kites for all the same reasons until.....i started loosing sessions to leaking/failing bladders and did not want to deal with it EVER ! new stuff, used stuff it will happen , but not to me!

BTW thanks BLOAH for the V10 that Vucker ROCKS! in 30+

glad you got something you like, get comfortable and have some blowout FUN!

it's why we're here folks

right on bloah !

tridude - 27-7-2009 at 05:00 PM

one time at band camp............................................. :lol:

:duh::duh:

tridude - 27-7-2009 at 05:07 PM

hey if it feels good fly it however, there was a guy Saturday on a 13m Venom that pretty much owned Folly...................

most folks here (Folly beach) dont care what you fly just fly it....................we keep and eye on each other and the rest is gravy................ Snob you do make some good points and kudos to you for working a mixer adjustment on the beach........................

:lol:

:duh::duh:

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 05:13 PM

Domdino made a few points, along with NWsurf , tridude and mabye one or two others made a point, mostly about light wind performance, jumping, setup, durability. They have added to this thread, the rest of the people who posted added nothing to the thread, just pointless remarks. I guess the other 15 or so posters on this thread cant think for themselfs/ have no opnion.

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 05:15 PM

Tridude i was hoping everyone would kick in and make good points. only a few did. Thanks for those that did.

Its all the same, ..... just different

Bladerunner - 27-7-2009 at 05:25 PM

If I remember the person who was told a Neo would be a good 1st depower kite was going to primarily ride on land but hoped to move to water ?

These are the people I suggest a closed cell foil to. Beginers are better off with a foil if they are mostly going to be ( crash ) on land.

Do you really think a novice is better off with a LEI when he will mostly be on land ?

I saw a girl the other day with one of those North Rebels. She couldn't even get up on her board. Lousy kite ???

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 05:35 PM

Once again adding nothing to the thread
The neo guy said he wouldnt mind getting a water specific kite later on.
There are better kites for land for him, and if you are going to get a specific kite for water, then why not get one thats easy to use in the water.
A friend lost her kite in hatteras so i let her borrow my rebel and she liked it so much she bought one.

Bladerunner - 27-7-2009 at 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
Once again adding nothing to the thread
The neo guy said he wouldnt mind getting a water specific kite later on.

Wow you are closed minded!!!

The NOTHING I was adding was posed in the form of a question that you ignored !

Not the question about the Girl and the Rebel. I was just having fun with that.

Only your jokes and your opinions seem to count though!

You are so bent that you have never noticed that I agree with you in 99% of what you cram down our throats !

nwsurfwakeskate - 27-7-2009 at 05:52 PM

just found someone posted this saying on nwkite.com.

"kind of like a johovah's witness at the front door. you cant really argue with the final point they make. you just have to shut the door.

so true, laughing......"

felt very applicable to this thread :lol:

carltb - 27-7-2009 at 06:02 PM

ANYWAY, IF YOU DONT FLY A FULL ON C KITE WITH ZERO WIND RANGE THEN YOU ARE GAY. NO BOWS NO HYBREDS NO 5TH LINE.

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 06:03 PM

Yes blade he will be better on land with a foil. There are better foils suited to his needs then the neo.
didnt meant to hurt your feelings

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 06:06 PM

Carl I asked my foil bud if he were to switch to LEI what he would fly. Answer 08 vegas. Fast turning, smooth power, holds power through turns. This was after the p4 experence.

domdino - 27-7-2009 at 06:15 PM

Ahh see, again EACH TO THERE BLOODY OWN - i PERSONALLY disliked the 08 vegas. The 06 vegas on the other hand is amazing that thing has so much power! Talking about stability when i rode the 08 vegas i thought it was less stable than any foil i've ever flown, but definitely very very very fast, twitchy and sensitive a bit to gusts. Also took me a while to relaunch the sucker but i'm a little out of practice relaunching 5th liners... Kite had hardly any float but it did whip me up there pretty nicely, also didn't think it had much range, i was on a 12m and the wind started off 18-24, then when it dipped below 18 it lost power quickly, I had a full days session on one a couple of months ago. Still nice, i've just flown many kites i consider for myself to be much better.

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 06:19 PM

Yea dom you do loose some stability to get the speed out of it. I think any c kite will feel less stable then a foil. And we all know that c kites dont have the windrange. maybe a step better then a fixed bridal huh.

carltb - 27-7-2009 at 06:23 PM

He would make a good choice then. the vegas is an excellant kite and is one of the kites of choice for top riders at my local, along side the fuel. but i still rip it up along side them on my arcs. which goes to show that you can put a good rider on any kite and they will be a good rider but you cant put a numpty on "the best" kite and expect them to ride like a pro!!!
i think the point im trying to make is a kite is only a conduit for the pilots skill.

nwsurfwakeskate - 27-7-2009 at 06:25 PM

snobdr I think its interesting that you're arguing foil vs LEI but as I read through this thread really you're arguing North vs Flysurfer and HQ

Are you a North Rep or something? You kinda sound like it.

I detect the persistence of someone trying to sell a brand name. :smug:

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 06:35 PM

If i was a rep i would be flying a brand new quiver of one style of kite. My 4 faves are 07 12m rebel 07 14m rhino 07 9m caution answer and an 07 ozone 13m. My wife is learning also so i dont mind the crossover in wind range we both have a kite for the conditions. I wouldnt mind a set of the cautions. They are quick and make a ton of power. Almost a c shape but bow relaunch and depower. Simple bar setup also .

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 06:37 PM

Carl your right but you can also agree that the right kite will make u a better rider.

ThePixelGuru - 27-7-2009 at 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
Depower most new bow/sle kites depower 100%

So if you let go of the handles/bar it won't go anywhere? If you're going to claim that evidence like the power/depower test at the beginning of this thread isn't any good you're really going to have to back up a claim like that with some amazing evidence of your own. I would assume you didn't mean that literally, but some evidence would add a lot of weight to your arguments, especially if you're going to dismiss the evidence provided by others.

I might be a power kite newbie but I still know a flawed argument when I see one.

carltb - 27-7-2009 at 06:56 PM

exactly. the best kite for me is an arc (synergy) and i rip on it but put me on an lei and i dont ride to my potential.

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 07:50 PM

Pixel we covered this in another thread but ill break it down. If i were on a bow kite and im ripping along and wipeout, i let go of the bar and the kite falls out of the sky, in essence all of the realitive power is gone. Thats why the say 100%. The kite is still out there still creating drag so some pull exisits.
The test was flawed. They tested at zenith(the least powerful position),no kite sizes were posted(in general a foil will have more power then an equal sized LEI, c kite being the least), the kites were not being flown, they were instead being pulled like a parafoil. no consideration for apparent wind or how fast the kite will fly in given wind. Or to say one kite may fly faster then another kite thus it may produce more power.

Did make me think how to do an accurate test though. Food for another thread.

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 08:12 PM

another curious tidbit on why foils have more power
North rhino 12M projected area=7.4m
Speed 2 12m projected 10.3M WOW no wounder
And heres what got me
Synergy 12m=7.4M
Is a 12m PL compairable to a 12M LEI? In power and windrange?

nwsurfwakeskate - 27-7-2009 at 08:21 PM

snobdr....

maybe you stated this before but what is your personal experience with depower water relaunchable foil kites?

I don't care to hear what you've heard from other people or what you've seen people do. I want to know what your personal experience hooked into a water specific foil kite has been.

before you answer I would suggest you consider that any kite takes a few hours of time riding behind it in order to start REALLY feeling how that kite is supposed to perform. so I don't care if you traded kites for a half dozen tac's that doesn't count either. I'm talking a good day maybe 2 of evaluating a kite as a minimum.

I'm curious to hear what your response is.

Regards,
Christian

snobdr - 27-7-2009 at 09:06 PM

Ive had a few sessions on some flysurfers. I can tell what a kite is doing without having to ride them for a few days. Sure i wont have the timing to get the max out of jumps ect. But i can get a feel after a few runs. I guess i havent flown the kites in every different condition if thats what your getting at.
I flew enuff to know they wernt for me.

nwsurfwakeskate - 27-7-2009 at 10:37 PM

hey c'mon now...you gotta give me more details then that. if you're going to talk #@%$#! about kites you need to back it up with something.

lets hear what model flysurfers you've ridden, in what sizes and what conditions.

also I'd like to know that someone was having success on them. Otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if the kite was setup incorrectly.

For instance sometimes powerzone will let me try one of his kites. I'll fiddle with it a bit and not really do anything impressive. and then he'll take it back and boost bigger then I've ever seen. all I'm saying is that in order to bash something you need to have done a thorough evaluation first.

Also, I'm not sure if you know this but not all flysurfers are the same.

Speed 2 and Psycho 4 are worlds apart. the pulse 2 is totally different animal as well.

Pulse 1 and Pulse 2 are totally different too as well as the Speed 1.5 vs Speed 2

I have flown about 8 different flysurfer models and they all performed totally different from each other. Hell, my 15m P4 would fly totally different depending on if I moved the mixer C gallery -1cm vs -2cm

I would really like to know what 1 or 2 kites, however many it was that you tried that caused you to make up your mind that all LEI's are better then all foil kites.

snobdr - 28-7-2009 at 04:59 AM

Ive flown the s2 15 and 19 and the p4. Ive also flown the outlaw 8 a few ozones. I really liked the sa for the lightwind ability. In winds that light the slow speed dosent bother me much and i like the floaty feel of it. If i had the extra cash i would probably pick one up. The p4 was gusty and didnt hold its shape very well and was on the slow side compaired to what im used to. I noticed with all the foils i flew they like to do weird things when you get a little slack in the lines, like when in the waves, where as my Leis tend to hang there better. I mostly dont like the slow turning of the kites. Makes me feel like im flying a kite 3 sizes bigger. Im not much into messing with bridals and such. I did convert an old century air 7.3 to depower and pretty much had my fill of tuning with that. Ive never tangled a kite but have helped others untangle and thats something else id rather not deal with. Untangling 4 lines is enuff for me.

PHREERIDER - 28-7-2009 at 05:15 AM

specific rig dependency limits a riders growth and blunts there total knowledge.

equipment dependency is dangerous.

self reliance and choices gives control to the rider

choices should be appropriate to skill and knowledge

i'm glad bloah has chosen kites that will allow him to progress.

bloah - 28-7-2009 at 05:49 AM

just flew my 12 meter rhino, bottom end around 10 knots on spleene door and had it out later in the day during 20 avaraging, gusting 25. Hang time and jumping is way better than in psycho 4. Handless gusts, turns, jumps, hang time, wind range, are all better compared to P4. Also not a single pulley on that kite. Flat delta kite, WOW.
My buddy was out on 16 in 20 knots, and he didnt even felt overpowered as depower is huge on the new hybrids.

snobdr - 28-7-2009 at 05:52 AM

Yea i like my 14 wish it was a 16 though.

nwsurfwakeskate - 28-7-2009 at 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
Ive flown the s2 15 and 19 and the p4. Ive also flown the outlaw 8 a few ozones. I really liked the sa for the lightwind ability. In winds that light the slow speed dosent bother me much and i like the floaty feel of it. If i had the extra cash i would probably pick one up. The p4 was gusty and didnt hold its shape very well and was on the slow side compaired to what im used to. I noticed with all the foils i flew they like to do weird things when you get a little slack in the lines, like when in the waves, where as my Leis tend to hang there better. I mostly dont like the slow turning of the kites. Makes me feel like im flying a kite 3 sizes bigger. Im not much into messing with bridals and such. I did convert an old century air 7.3 to depower and pretty much had my fill of tuning with that. Ive never tangled a kite but have helped others untangle and thats something else id rather not deal with. Untangling 4 lines is enuff for me.

ha, that's funny. so basically you don't like the P4 is what all this is about. well, there's a lot of flysurfer guys that don't like the P4 either. they complain that it flies too much like an LEI except it can also collapse too. I wish flysurfer would have focused more on making foil kites that do the things foils are good at instead of trying to turn a foil into an SLE. it just isn't going to work right....

btw the P4's are very fast kites when they are properly tuned. I have compared my 10m and 15m to equivalently sized SLE's and the turning speed was very comparable. I can kiteloop the 10m as well.

unfortunately flysurfer really screwed up and made a kite that needed to be tuned before it flew right. I didn't like my 15m for 3 months until I got it tuned right and I'm still not sure how much I love the 10m. it seems to require a lot of wind. and when it is in that amount of wind it gets unstable.

People should not be required to tune a kite before they fly it out of the box. my guess is this kite design was supposed to make a lot of people cross over to foils from inflatables and I think instead it has caused the exact opposite.

on the bright side though I think they may have addressed the problem finally. powerzone just recently got a new P4 10m in and it flew right right out of the box so maybe its not too late to revive that kites reputation.

snobdr - 28-7-2009 at 08:19 AM

Its not only the p4, I dont like the general slow turning of the foils, I dont like having to deal with tangles, I dont like having to keep a kite in tune. I dont like a kite that loses its shape in a lull. I dont like the relaunch. I dont like how they handle gusts. I dont like the sloppy feel when depowered.
Yes i havent tried every foil out there to see if there is one that suits me more. Im just not really interested.
Theres a reason why foils are trying to match the performance of LEIs.

Maven454 - 28-7-2009 at 08:25 AM

Sure, because they're trying to get EVERYONE to buy their kite. Which is not the same thing as saying that LEI are better. It's the difference between a Cadillac Deville and a Corvette. Sometimes you want sheer power and turning, other times you don't want to feel even the slightest bump in the road.

nwsurfwakeskate - 28-7-2009 at 08:29 AM

You tried 2 of the slowest turning flysurfers out there that in my opinion have no competition (S2 15 and 19) and a P4 in some unknown size that probably wasn't tuned right. if that means "in general" foils are slow in your opinion then okay that's your opinion. I disagree but I'm willing to do so respectfully...

I'm glad you were able to explain where your bad experience was coming from. thanks for sharing and good luck on your north and caution kites.

A lot of people around here love north kites. There is a few caution kites on the water but I think they are more of a Cali thing.

snobdr - 28-7-2009 at 09:26 AM

the p4 was a 12m and i tried it at the end of the day when it was tuned. When i say they turn slow, i mean they turn slower then my other kites of the same size. And i know the SA 15 and 19 are probably the slowest, but they aren ment to perform in a specific area, and they do that well.
I have no problem saying that they are "better" then my kites in this area. Most have more power for the same size, they are "better" as far as power per size, They float "better", heck they might even be better jumpers. Not a problem for me to say that. But there are areas where they dont perform, but i guess we cant talk about that.
And just because most people fly LEIs just means that most people perfer them over other kites. I guess theres no reason for that either. they would just rather fly them.

Maven454 - 28-7-2009 at 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
I have no problem saying that they are "better" then my kites in this area. Most have more power for the same size, they are "better" as far as power per size, They float "better", heck they might even be better jumpers. Not a problem for me to say that. But there are areas where they dont perform, but i guess we cant talk about that.
And just because most people fly LEIs just means that most people perfer them over other kites. I guess theres no reason for that either. they would just rather fly them.

And I'm not saying that there aren't areas where LEIs out perform foils. In fact, I wouldn't even know, never having flown an LEI. But you never seem to say that there are areas where the LEI excels, you always seem to say that LEIs out perform foils as a blanket statement. I'm not trying to disprove your arguments, I'm simply picking at the problems in the manner in which you present them.

nwsurfwakeskate - 28-7-2009 at 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
the p4 was a 12m and i tried it at the end of the day when it was tuned. When i say they turn slow, i mean they turn slower then my other kites of the same size. And i know the SA 15 and 19 are probably the slowest, but they aren ment to perform in a specific area, and they do that well.
I have no problem saying that they are "better" then my kites in this area. Most have more power for the same size, they are "better" as far as power per size, They float "better", heck they might even be better jumpers. Not a problem for me to say that. But there are areas where they dont perform, but i guess we cant talk about that.
And just because most people fly LEIs just means that most people perfer them over other kites. I guess theres no reason for that either. they would just rather fly them.

snobdr,

you must have missed it early on in this thread but I layed out:

I like foils because they do (A,B,C)

I still fly them instead of inflatables even though foils have problems (X, Y, Z) I still consider the advantages outweighing the disadvantages for my style. I wouldn't say they are perfect for everyone and I never did say that. but I do think they are the best solution for some people because they are different then any inflatable on the market and they can excel beyond inflatables in SOME areas.

If you stop making statements that include works like "never" "always" and instead use phrases like "my experience" or "I think" then I think people on this forum will be more willing to discuss it with you in a civil manner instead of snapping back and pointing out the flaws with how you represent your opinion.

snobdr - 28-7-2009 at 09:51 AM

Like i have said there are a few that have made points, then there are the rest that have added nothing. And like i said theres a reason why most people fly LEIs and theres a reason why Foil makers are trying to match their performance.
Top riders choose what they ride, and they dont ride LEIs cuz they suck.

Maven454 - 28-7-2009 at 09:55 AM

And once again... Blanket statements. But, of course, it's us being completely unreasonable. You remind me of someone else I've had a discussion with, she stated "Logic is irrelevant" :wee: At which point you really are forced to stop bothering...

snobdr - 28-7-2009 at 10:07 AM

and once again someone adds nothing.

Maven454 - 28-7-2009 at 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
and once again someone adds nothing.

There are the words of a man who has no viable argument.

powerzone - 28-7-2009 at 10:25 AM

one last posting for me here.

it is quite interesting how something like this comes up every year, and we've all seen how it still gets nowhere... because there is nowhere to go. its an endless conversation with zero achievable effect. We should continue to be thankful that there is more than 1 type of product to fly out there..... we have a choice of what we buy/fly so that is great. its not kite communism.... its a free market to choose whatever you want which will work for you, your style, your location....

yea, i still don't see the point of the discussion... all our experiences and viewpoints are personal, therefore remain biased no matter what. and guess what... that is OK ! its funny that when some facts and data were included into the mix... it is considered "flawed" information so its useless ..... if facts don't help to answer your questions, and opinions don't help to answer your questions.... what is left? therefore this thread will go on forever.

if you changed your posting header to display "LEI's are better FOR ME after all" , then this thread would have been over 5 pages ago. because feelings and opinions are yours alone. no one can change that.

what do you expect the responses here to be.... .this is a predominantly 'foil-based' forum.... so statements made which are attacking and condescending will be countered with similar regard.... why not post something similar on foil-zone and see what you get... and just to be consistant, make sure and speak in absolutes to achieve the same effect.

its obvious by now who will continue to fly what type of kite, and who will continue to pursue their certain types of equipment .... and we're all stubborn in what we like.... so why can't we just be content with that, part our ways and move on here....

just go out there and have fun you guys... the point is whataver you fly is a KITE. isn't that what the sport is about? FLYING KITES .... which is a means to and end of having FUN and enjoying yourself.... no matter if its a stunt kite, power kite, quad line, foil kite, box kite, lei kite, indoor kite, etc.... we all have that in common, we like to fly something.

snobdr - 28-7-2009 at 10:33 AM

Quote:

This post isnt about how i present my argument. And you admit you woldnt even know if one was better or not. So why post? You obviously cant add anything meaningful. Have to jump on the bandwagon though huh.
I have made statements about where LEIs excell, I am making the general statement because we are talking in general. Foils and LEIs, This post would be 100 pages if we compaired each idividual kite, or for that matter each type of kite, Foil, twinskin, bow,c kite, sle,delta,npw.

f0rgiv3n - 28-7-2009 at 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr

Quote:

This post isnt about how i present my argument. And you admit you woldnt even know if one was better or not. So why post? You obviously cant add anything meaningful. Have to jump on the bandwagon though huh.
I have made statements about where LEIs excell, I am making the general statement because we are talking in general. Foils and LEIs, This post would be 100 pages if we compaired each idividual kite, or for that matter each type of kite, Foil, twinskin, bow,c kite, sle,delta,npw.

I don't understand how you think snobdr... he just posted a neutral argument attempting to nullify the entire argument with some great points and you dig up the dead? Quit cutting people down man.

snobdr - 28-7-2009 at 10:40 AM

What i expected from this forum, was experenced based responces either for or against. Some have given that. Most here have come and add nothing but useless banter. Maven454 has posted numerous times, then states he wouldnt even know the difference. Then why post?

f0rgiv3n - 28-7-2009 at 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
What i expected from this forum, was experenced based responces either for or against. Some have given that. Most here have come and add nothing but useless banter. Maven454 has posted numerous times, then states he wouldnt even know the difference. Then why post?

You've said this many times. Just drop it please.

either that... or edit your signature to say:

"Signed,
Mr. Negativity"

nwsurfwakeskate - 28-7-2009 at 12:40 PM

I Agree with powerzone 100%

It has become apparent that there is no light at the end of this tunnel and the circular arguement seems to be going round and round with biased opinions and weak arguements being thrown all over the place. This tunnel seems to be getting darker and darker. whats it take to get a thread locked around here? I expected this one to be locked about 150 or so posts back.

snobdr - 28-7-2009 at 01:14 PM

I have become bored with this thread anyway. It ceases to amuse me.

oldrestless - 28-7-2009 at 02:08 PM

Haha. Way to bail out Snob, but it's a little late in my opinion.

carltb - 28-7-2009 at 04:10 PM

196 posts and 2500 views and the conclusion is ............................

just fly what you feel is right for you!!!!:wee::wee::wee:

AD72 - 28-7-2009 at 05:02 PM

Anybody want to bid on my 2002 Singshot on Ebay currently at 99cents?

bloah - 28-7-2009 at 05:48 PM

powerzone one of the purpuses of creating this thread was to put some foil riders on LEI's and see the other side...

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