General Born-Kite discussion.

Well just looking at the wing shape, its got to be faster and prolly his best upwind skin design yet. I'm still on the fence with this, or just grabbing a Peak.

Curious how this bar setup will look and work, and how the kite's depower range. I really like how the Stars and Peaks both have the push out depowering of the kite.

Congrats on the Long Star too! Mama's got to be about ready to ring your neck

Man I wish I had more money

So much stuff to love and so little greenbacks to trade for it

Now accepting donations for the annual JWC get Spencer a new kite fund... Donations are tax deductible so long as the IRS doesn't audit you :D

I was thinking about it when I went out the other day to fly static on my lunch break.

The original post on this thread by Jason (3shot) was about the sluggish turning of his 7m and the new longer bar he had modded in order to help with that... So I paid attention to the turning habits of my NS3 7m in flight and what I found was this: my 7m is slow turning in sub 10 mph winds, but once it blows up over that, it turns IMO just as fast as my smaller sizes... now I've little experience flying any Nasa Star under 5.5m so that may be an unfair comparison, (I don't own a 2.5m and I've only flown the 4m a hand full of times), and I'm not saying that Jason is wrong by any means, but I just wanted to pay attention and share my observations.

It seems obvious with ANY kite that the speed of the turn is correlated to the windspeed, but I DO think that with the Stars it is probably more exaggerated. It may have to do with the ram air aspect of foils combined with their use of apparent wind, that they hold their shape and can continue moving at speed in lighter air... just thinking out loud.

Maybe this is conjecture but one reason the smaller sizes turn so quick is because we use them in stronger winds... that's the reason we have them, they are high wind engines... the bigger ones ARE slower moving because we use them in lighter winds... their mass is bigger combined with lighter forces on them to turn. I'm pretty sure if you put up a 4m in sub 10 - 10 mph wind it would turn pretty slow too... yes faster than a 7m, but still slower than in a 15 mph breeze. Still just thinking out loud...

Someone tell me if you think I'm wrong, cuz really I'm just waxing intellectual and spitting out what I'm thinking... but it makes sense to me.

I shot the following with the iPhone while flying one-handed hoping to see something and I feel like I did... a little ... I think that there is a visible difference (esp with the upturn at the end). Forgive the camera work... it was tricky work holding the phone and flying at the same time.

(click the pic for the vid).

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Join us abkayak:bigok:

ha...funny, im so twin skin im just getting around to peruse this thread now....you guys really drink this 1le skin cool aid all up

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre   Join us abkayak:bigok: ha...funny, im so twin skin im just getting around to peruse this thread now....you guys really drink this 1le skin cool aid all up

Yes we do. :D Hopefully still an entertaining thread even if your not a single skin fan.

Spencer, I think your right. turning is slower in light air and using large ones in light air does contribute. I find the same thing. When wind is up then turning is always much better. Working the lighter stuff, I do think a longer bar would be beneficial. I've been wanting to try a longer bar with my short lines and longboard since I'm usually working a much lighter wind than with buggy.

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

Man I wish I had more money So much stuff to love and so little greenbacks to trade for it Now accepting donations for the annual JWC get Spencer a new kite fund... Donations are tax deductible so long as the IRS doesn't audit you :D

Or you could do as Jeb Bush suggests, and just work more hours! :o

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Spencer... Fine use of the English language BTW right at the end of the clip. :saint:

Hey.... I'm about 90% sure that was "shoot"... just the "sh" and the "t" were exaggerated! :saint::saint::saint:

Fellow Star enthusiasts: I found a link to the Universal bar I ordered for adjusting the outside lines for my Stars. I measured the bar that I got from Steffen and center to center of the tie-in holes seemed to measure at 465mm give or take. That was exciting news for me because I had ordered this bar while I was on a business trip so I didn't have the bar to measure against when I pulled the trigger.

Since the Universal bar I'm getting adjusts in 5cm increments from 45-60cm that seemed pretty sweet! 45 cm for the smallest Stars, 50-55cm for the mid range, and 60cm for the Mac Daddies.

I'm figuring I'll get the bar in about 7-10 days from now as it came out of England. I didn't dig into the website too deeply, but at first blush it doesn't look as if they have a US distributor. If you click on the site's online store they offer the bar "naked" (yikes!) for 85 Eur. The bar appears to come with rear pre-lines.

Here's the link to the main site:

http://www.kiteattitude.com/english/control_bar_features.htm

Here's the link to the buying page:

http://kiteattitudefr.votreboutiquepro.fr/barres-de-kitesurf...

I got my bar for GBP 40 which is about 55 EUR or about $62 US. So a little cheaper than 85 EUR, but not much (dang! thought I was getting a better deal).

Once I get it I'll rig it up, test it, and report out to this crew. Who knows, maybe it will be the next BIG THING!
:bigok:

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Dang, everytime I see a picture of a nasa star, I want to go fly mine and take some decent pictures to add to the thread.

Nothing special, but I liked the colors in these pics. I also like Born-Porn :D

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre   Join us abkayak:bigok: ha...funny, im so twin skin im just getting around to peruse this thread now....you guys really drink this 1le skin cool aid all up

And just for you abkayak...
OOOOH YEAAAA

John posted this on Vimeo with my vid, so I decided to respond here.

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate (on Vimeo)

Hey Spencer. The other note I might make is that you're turning the kite at the very edge of the window as it's starting to run out of steam. Try turning it in the middle of (or well before the edge of) the window while it's got some power - I think you'll find it's a little faster again. That was very, very light wind you're turning the 7m in by the looks too!

Thanks for the comment John, I am actually pretty pleased with how my larger NS3's turn. My intent was to show that I believe that they have a good quick turn rate on the standard bar that Steffen supplies. You are right that I was turning near the edge of the window and at first, yes the wind was pretty light (thats about all we get around here this time of year), but when it kicked up a little, it was turning faster... Jason helped solve this with a longer bar.

SWEEEEEEEEEEET, Sean!!!

And Love your JIBE pics there Jason... you know I recognize that spot... looks like you're just north of the tidal sign... YES! Born-porn

One last remark about the longer bar. What John said about keeping the sine more in the middle of the window is true, as we all know. Obviously, that's especially true for Stars. That's the money spot. Stars have a smaller window as compared to foils, so I want to maximize the smaller sweet spot. In the lower wind, I was able to make my sine much smaller, faster, and tighter. Of course, this may all go out the window once in motion with a buggy, but all points says the 65cm bar will be more efficient with the larger sized Stars at the lower wind range. God Speed

You can't have too much Born Porn can you?

What is this Kool-Aid you speek?

Dang, I'm trying so darn hard to fly my NS3s! Got the 8.5m up in the air again today, took two slow laps on a field with my bug and put it away. Once again my 12m P2 saved my session. This summer wind stuff bites. I think if it ever blows steadily over 10 knots before Fall around here I'm going to sport a chubby! I've got a 10m NS3 on order, maybe that will save me!

WOW!!! An NS3 10m, and a 7m LongStar, and digging for a 6m peak2????? Dude, is your company hiring?? I think I might like Utah

Quote: Originally posted by 3shot

WOW!!! An NS3 10m, and a 7m LongStar, and digging for a 6m peak2????? Dude, is your company hiring?? I think I might like Utah

me too, me too!!!

PKF friends moving to Utah - whippee!:wee:

You know what they say around here: "Bring home a six-pack for the wives."

Sorry my friends, but im a remote employee for a NY-based company.

Hey, back to Born stuff - in my (very) limited experience buggying with my NS3s I seem to be noticing that working the kite by sine waving it seems to do less to boost power than other kites I've flown. As noted before, folks don't seem to get a boost from down turning with these beauties either. Have folks noticed this or am I just lacking enough time in the saddle to notice the benefit of working the kite for a power boost?

Fellow Star enthusiasts - Wind was howling today! I clocked it over 15 knots steady with gust probably double that. Major league janky conditions. I took some time over lunch to buggy with my smaller NS3s. After some experimentation with my 2.5, 3.2, and 4.0s in the air, I settled with the 4.0. Overpowered with the gusts, but enough grunt for the steady underlying wind.

Man, did the 2.5 and 3.2 (and to a lesser extent, 4.0) move FAST! I've gotten so used to low-wind Peak 2 12m flying that today's session seemed like warp drive!

One problem I was having (likely pilot error) is the chicken loop would come off of the spreader hook during the lulls and then I'd have to bare the weight of the kite on my arms during the gusts if I didn't fumble it back onto the hook in time. That was a workout!!! :o

I suspect I was involuntarily pulling on the bar during steering so it would pop off when the force slackened. I'd gotten used to that with my DP bar on the P2. The chicken loop did not fall off as much when I was very deliberate about keeping a very light touch.

When I got home I fashioned a, err, donkey dick (hey, I didn't come up with that name!) out of a piece of semi-flexible tubing. I forced a doubled-over length of small rope I had laying about through the tube so a loop stuck out of one end. I used that loop to tie a larkshead knot around the chicken loop and then tightened everything up at the other end of the tube by tying a square knot with the loose ends, ending with a simple overhand knot on each end just to keep the rope from fraying. It was a cotton rope; had it been what I would have rather had (nylon) I would have skipped the overhand knots and just burnt the ends closed with a lighter.

Anyway, I haven't field tested it but it seems to work at my kitchen table exactly as I intended it to, so I'm pretty psyched! Here are some pictures of my (crude) handiwork.

Observant ones among you will proudly see that I also correctly attached my leash hook inside my spreader. Extra bonus!

Pretty nifty Steve! I've also unhooked a lot by accident in lighter winds. Not such an issue with moderate winds. That's another reason I want to use my AQR because the loop cant come out unless I get ejected, or manually open the snatch block.

Nice mod though

Cant wait to fly these Stars and Peaks at JIBE next year. Yes.... that event you ARE coming to! :D :D :D

I didn't even think of it jamming till you mentioned it!
Nothing beats trying to hook back in under load

A little Born-Porn featuring the legendary 8.5m NS3!

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Balls in hand... Got it.

I got my Universal bar today and strung it up with the lines from my original Born-bar. I'm excited to try it, going wider with larger NS3s and narrower with smaller ones. I'll try and get some video and do some testing. Stay tuned fellow Born enthusiasts!

Quote:

IMO with depower you learn much less about buggy control because you can just let the bar out.

Sean - you made some very good points a couple of days ago that I somehow missed until just now. I think you are absolutely right. Sheeting out the bar on a Peak is so easy for dumping power that I do get less focused on buggy control. Very good points. I'm going to focus on that next time I'm out with my Stars. Thanks for the pointers!

I made an enhancement to my donkey lock-in for my adjustable Born-Kite bar. It works much better than my original version. Hardware store run included 3ft of paracord (I think it was 3mil) and 1ft of semi-flexible tubing. It is hard to pull the line through the tube. I took a needle with some strong thread and larkshead knotted it to the middle of the paracord. Then just drop the needle through the tube and pull the paracord through the tube (it will be doubled over). I think you can see the rest in the photo.

I flew static with this yesterday and this longer set up works much better than the shorter one I originally built. [I know, insert "that's what she said" joke here]. Remember to set up the donkey on the opposite side to the chicken loop release so it doesn't interfere with the release if you have to pull the ripcord.

Looks good Steve. Looks like you got the pic posting down?

Wow, the Walk of Shame seen as upside. .

Glad you got a taste at least brotha. We've got rain today (that's a good thing around here) but maybe some wind Wednesday afternoon. Stuff dreams are made of!

Sounds like all of my recent buggy sessions Sean

Glad you got out though... see, we NEEEEED that 10m, right!

No wind worth having in these parts

Sean - I'd say the winds were 6-10mph. It is probably hard to tell from the video, but the wind was quite different at the "left" (North) end of the field than the "right". These are sports fields behind our town's middle school and the way the winds were blowing yesterday had them coming over the school and then onto the field (opposite the normal flow). The school is at the North end, so as I went farther to the right towards the apartment buildings the wind cleaned up and sped up quite a bit!

John - I'm most interested in that comparison as well. I appreciate your tips on timing the turn with different size Stars and keeping the lines taught. I'm trying! :D

If you saw my sister video that I posted about the same time in the General Peak 2 thread you will see my maiden voyage of my new yellow 6m P2. Talk about "amateur hour" in that video! I was considerably underpowered and had to work the kite like crazy to get enough grunt to stay moving. Wind conditions would have had me normally with my 12m P2 but I wanted to try out my new toy!

As an inland rider I get some serious janky wind conditions. The depow range of the P2's have saved me from some real danger quite a few times. I've been lifted and pulled out of my buggy several times by gusts using my NS3s, mostly with my 8.5m but once with my 4.0m too. I just haven't been quick enough pulling the yellow ball to depow. Around where I ride wind can double in speed in an instant sometimes and if it happens at the wrong time things get "busy". I know a fair amount of this is piloting issues. I am hugely hopeful that the 7.0m LongStar that I have on order from Steffen will allow for some meaningful depow with the bar push away as featured on his video. From the photos the fabled UltraStar also looks like it will have depow capabilities too. For me it's a sheer matter of safety. If the new Stars offer more safety on the fly like that you may see me swapping out my quiver a bit. I absolutely love my NS3s but things can get dicey in the serious jank.

Final note - I had my adjustable width bar all the way wide (60cm) for this session. This made the kite quite responsive to turn input and I was most pleased with its action off of those wider tie-in points!

Jason and John - Believe me, I've studied the AQR photos and thought about it.... slick and sweet system. The whole kiting thing is an evolutionary process for all of us. Maybe I'll head that way over time. I certainly appreciate the suggestion; it's a good one.

Sean - Your suggestion of hitting the safety of course makes total sense. Both of our real-world names start with S. In your case it also stands for "sensible"; for me, "stubborn" (stupid?). I need to get past this, but I tend to approach hitting the safety as an absolute last resort, akin to pulling the ejection lever in a fighter jet that jettisons the pilot but looses the plane. Jason - you made this comment too of course, but I wanted to crack myself up a bit with my sensible/stubborn comparison and your name just didn't fit that narrative!

I'm still gap-filling my quiver. My acquisition of the 6m P2 went a huge way towards doing this! I completely agree with the comments about winds that shift between 10-20mph - Peak conditions for sure! My smaller NS3s will likely be reserved for high steady winds should those ever materialize. Unlikely around here, but there's always the playa at Ivanpah!!!! :evil:

My thoughts exactly Steve. I have the same mindset about JIBE. Its what keeps me going, and pushing through the inland janky. Buggying at a soccer field with trashy wind has no comparison to a 5 mile stretch of beach with a constant clean wind. Two totally different mindsets. You think you enjoy the buggy now? Wait till you have no restrictions from wind, obstacles, or terrain. What is really going to accelerate you at the playa is all the skills you have gained from the struggling conditions of inland wind. Even though we cuss it, it is the best learning tool. Same from the opposite. If all one learns and knows is buggying constant clean wind, they would be destroyed on the first soccer field session from inland conditions IMHO.

Another humble suggestion for lufting/backstalling in the turns is to bring the kite up high, turn under the kite while the kite is turning, then drop it back down. Or, turn the kite ahead of the buggy. While the buggy is coming around, perform an exaggerated figure 8 keeping the lines tight. While the buggy is in the middle of coming around, you are already starting the upturn of the figure 8. If that makes sense. If timed right you will be heading on the proper course the same time the kite is coming out of the last bottom turn of the figure 8 restoring a little boost to get you going. In light winds its super easy to put slack in the lines by accident, especially in the turns. Like John said, each size reacts a little different.

As far as the AQR, Its a highly debatable topic. Many threads on here about it. When I put mine together, it was to help me overcome the fear of hooking in with fixed bridle kites. At the time, FB was all I had. With inland jank, it was more a pain in the ass then anything. Shifty winds would always collapse a traditional foil dropping it from the sky. You know whats involved with the kite after that....
Since my AQR, I've been bit by the single skin characteristics. More forgiving, and tons less lufting. Since that, I haven't re visited my AQR for inland winds, though I can see where it wouldn't be such a pain now with the Stars. The beach is a different story. Yes its a lot cleaner wind, but now your dealing with higher speeds where pilot error could get you hurt. The AQR is great for that. I am in my third year of buggying, and still learn something new every trip as does most everyone. We are all individuals with our own likes, dislikes, style, and comfort levels. Its what makes it so great. Immersing yourself in a large group of kiters such as Ivanpah is going to be mind blowing. Sorry for the ARQ sidetrack here.

Since we are talking pure jank. Here's my wind today. Forecast steady NE (which I can't fly anyway). Its been forecasted that way all day, but notice how the hour by hour actually comes to pass....... LMAO

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

Go a 12.5m Spencer :D

Hey John, I hadn't considered a 12.5 too seriously before, but maybe we should give that some more serious consideration. Do you think it would be to large of gap between the 7 and 12.5? I know you haven't flown a 12.5 but is there much overlap with the 7 and 10?