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Windstruck - 26-4-2016 at 02:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by m00ms  


big question is do i still do a lesson or do self teach option?



Congratulations on picking up the buggy! You're done for now.

Lessons are a superb luxury that I'm sure most of us never had (I sure didn't). Take a gander at this:

http://youtu.be/in-WegBa6iw

There, now you've had a lesson. Good luck!



Bladerunner - 26-4-2016 at 05:03 PM

A lesson would propel you through the learning curve in quick time. We don't have that luxury with buggies over here.

If you don't take lessons do yourself a favour and still get to the ocean and clean winds to learn. If the cost of lessons costs as much as a couple of nights hotel near the beach it's a tough call? If you go to a beach that is frequented by other pilots and they see you have worked on your kite skills odds are they will work with you?

Here is an important tip for once you get in motion: Don't fly the kite back past zenith when in motion!!!! You will get away with it at slow speeds with low winds but get moving a good speed and or have strong winds and you will get sent up and out of your buggy. An Out Of Buggy Experience, OBE. You will have a bad habit taken forward from static flying of doing this. DON'T ! We fly the kite in a sine wave ~ along one side of the window NOT figure 8s in motion.

WELDNGOD - 26-4-2016 at 06:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
We fly the kite in a sine wave ~ along one side of the window NOT figure 8s in motion.
Not all of us Brother Blade ! Some of us fly little kites in big wind,and you gotta work it !!! Loops, backloops,loop the loops , whatever it takes to keep that blur in motion and off the deck. One of my favorite tactics is to throw a loop and get a good pulse of energy and when it starts to fade throw one the opposite direction. I could do that all day long!:ninja:

Anthonyshopguy - 26-4-2016 at 10:10 PM

mOOms on the OBE concept. It is real and can be very dangerous. My baliwick has mostly been snow kiting. Let me tell a little story as I'm sure most of the people on this site have similar. Just got my first real kite 11m escape LEI depower. Was crazy to fly it. Had spent maybe 3 hours static flying. Went up for a cross country ski trip with friends and just could not resist bringing the kite. When my friends saw what I had brought they encouraged me to give it a spin. Since the cross country area and my now regular flying area were only a few miles apart we decided to just move the whole group over to watch the fun. I had a good tutorial video that I had watched at least 20 times and thought I was ready. :) Hmm Maybe not. After a few runs across the snow I felt braver and tried to go a little faster. Oh remember what I went up there to do originally, cross country ski. Skinny, no edging ability, tooth picks. Well there's a wonderful term called warp speeding I hope you get to experience it some day. Basically the apparent wind also increases with speed so the faster you go the more apparent wind the kite see' s on and on and faster and faster. All of a sudden the trees that were a half mile away were 300 feet away and I needed to make a quick decision. One fall down, nope two do a sliding turn nope, three "and here's the point of the story" fly the kite in the other direction. Everybody that is reading this KNOWS what happened next. Well the kite did what I told it and flew in the other direction but I continued in my same direction at maybe 20 MPH for at least a couple of seconds before physics took over. Kite lines have almost no stretch so I was swung in the most beautiful arc you could imagine. My skinny skies flapping in the wind, at least that's what my friends saw. I was swung well over Ten feet in the air and dropped like a rock. End of story, no not quite, in my panic I did not release the power bar which reduces the KITES power dramatically. So instead I had a yard sale which basically means one ski here another there it even ripped my helmet off before I stopped being dragged by a friend who jumped on me to stop me. At that time I tried to release the kite but was too tangled for the release to work. Thank God the wind eased off and I got things back under control. Legs OK check, arms not broken, check, head hurting check. I now laugh when I tell this story and my friends still laugh about it to this day. IT COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE. Moral. Hmm have somebody that can call an ambulance if needed, ask for help if there are people buggying they most likely will give you a hand especially if you can show some good static skills. If still feeling uncomfortable pay for a lesson or two.. I spent more in lessons in the water in Costa Rica then I have on KITES to this day and I did not feel it was wasted. Got to go to sleep hope all the people who are reading this post have a good laugh but maybe take a grain of caution away also. Ps no lessons on Buggying at IBX JUST GOT IN AND FLEW. hmmmm any mistakes: yes flipped buggy over onto myself, not OBE, just too strong a turn, wrapped lines around axial and broke one, and had an absolute blast. Thanks Bobby for inviting me see you next year.


And new kite in the mail 12m Ranger thanks for the advice feyd.:lol:

m00ms - 27-4-2016 at 05:25 AM

thanks guys for all your tips.

abkayak: i do remember you saying to get a 3m back in december but i really was not ready for that then as i was shocked by 2m at first! really can see me getting a 3m beamer to make the set up (tart eh!)

windstruck: thanks for the video like,i have watched that before but will watch again as it feels a lot more relevant now i have a buggy!

bladerunner:i was thinking same as you on lesson giving a good head start learning boost,thinking of going to the area for couple of days so i can do some static flying first then do lesson and finish off buggying on my own while the lesson is fresh in my mind.

Anthonyshopguy: really sorry to read of your incident but glad to hear you was/are ok and that it didnt put you off.

Bladerunner - 27-4-2016 at 06:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD  
Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
We fly the kite in a sine wave ~ along one side of the window NOT figure 8s in motion.
Not all of us Brother Blade ! Some of us fly little kites in big wind,and you gotta work it !!! Loops, backloops,loop the loops , whatever it takes to keep that blur in motion and off the deck. One of my favorite tactics is to throw a loop and get a good pulse of energy and when it starts to fade throw one the opposite direction. I could do that all day long!:ninja:


You are bang on. I was going to mention loops. It's important to note that you are looping in the direction of travel. Try that loop like a static figure 8 , passing over zenith and you go OBE.

abkayak - 27-4-2016 at 06:29 AM

the chances of you showing up on that beach flying a bit and not breaking out that buggy and giving it a go on your own are slim to none.....w/ none the favorite
and thats why you hang out w/ us

Anthonyshopguy - 27-4-2016 at 06:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak  
the chances of you showing up on that beach flying a bit and not breaking out that buggy and giving it a go on your own are slim to none.....w/ none the favorite
and thats why you hang out w/ us


:lol: I hope your experience is totally awesome at the beach. Good winds

m00ms - 27-4-2016 at 11:51 AM

abkayak you are very very possibly right about having buggy with me and not trying it out!! i have a few busy weekends coming up so best will be static local flights so sadly buggy will collect dust till towards the end of may!

i have just ordered a beamer 3m which by all accounts will be with me tomorrow so hopefully get to fly it at somepoint over weekend coming.

being a kayak paddler myself i have to ask if you also paddle going by your profile name?

thanks Anthonyshopguy i do hope my beach time is great fun as i am sure it will be and i hope manage to pilot the buggy well :)

Windstruck - 27-4-2016 at 12:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Anthonyshopguy  
mOOms on the OBE concept. It is real and can be very dangerous. My baliwick has mostly been snow kiting. Let me tell a little story as I'm sure most of the people on this site have similar. Just got my first real kite 11m escape LEI depower. Was crazy to fly it. Had spent maybe 3 hours static flying. Went up for a cross country ski trip with friends and just could not resist bringing the kite. When my friends saw what I had brought they encouraged me to give it a spin. Since the cross country area and my now regular flying area were only a few miles apart we decided to just move the whole group over to watch the fun. I had a good tutorial video that I had watched at least 20 times and thought I was ready. :) Hmm Maybe not. After a few runs across the snow I felt braver and tried to go a little faster. Oh remember what I went up there to do originally, cross country ski. Skinny, no edging ability, tooth picks. Well there's a wonderful term called warp speeding I hope you get to experience it some day. Basically the apparent wind also increases with speed so the faster you go the more apparent wind the kite see' s on and on and faster and faster. All of a sudden the trees that were a half mile away were 300 feet away and I needed to make a quick decision. One fall down, nope two do a sliding turn nope, three "and here's the point of the story" fly the kite in the other direction. Everybody that is reading this KNOWS what happened next. Well the kite did what I told it and flew in the other direction but I continued in my same direction at maybe 20 MPH for at least a couple of seconds before physics took over. Kite lines have almost no stretch so I was swung in the most beautiful arc you could imagine. My skinny skies flapping in the wind, at least that's what my friends saw. I was swung well over Ten feet in the air and dropped like a rock. End of story, no not quite, in my panic I did not release the power bar which reduces the KITES power dramatically. So instead I had a yard sale which basically means one ski here another there it even ripped my helmet off before I stopped being dragged by a friend who jumped on me to stop me. At that time I tried to release the kite but was too tangled for the release to work. Thank God the wind eased off and I got things back under control. Legs OK check, arms not broken, check, head hurting check. I now laugh when I tell this story and my friends still laugh about it to this day. IT COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE. Moral. Hmm have somebody that can call an ambulance if needed, ask for help if there are people buggying they most likely will give you a hand especially if you can show some good static skills. If still feeling uncomfortable pay for a lesson or two.. I spent more in lessons in the water in Costa Rica then I have on KITES to this day and I did not feel it was wasted. Got to go to sleep hope all the people who are reading this post have a good laugh but maybe take a grain of caution away also. Ps no lessons on Buggying at IBX JUST GOT IN AND FLEW. hmmmm any mistakes: yes flipped buggy over onto myself, not OBE, just too strong a turn, wrapped lines around axial and broke one, and had an absolute blast. Thanks Bobby for inviting me see you next year.


And new kite in the mail 12m Ranger thanks for the advice feyd.:lol:


Man, have we ever all been there. There is nothing quite like your first OBE. Mine was on grass in a buggy with a 12m Peak-2 in the air. Utter and complete pilot error as I can now see in retrospect. At the time I wanted to coin a new term, a CBOBE, short for Code Brown......

At IBX this year I almost OBE'd for the first time in about a year. I was cruising along minding my own business and completely lost in my own (happy) thoughts. Utah Tami went screaming by coming up behind me (as she is apt to do since she rides so darn much faster than me) and nearly startled me out of my socks I was so surprised. Lost complete control of the kite (4m Peak2) and things started to happen pretty quickly. Came to my senses and the kite was behind me. Yikes! It had gotten there in a hurry but it's quickness was also what saved me because I was able to get it pointed forward before being plucked. The playa is rock hard akin to 40wt sandpaper and it would have gone differently from my CBOBEs on grass when I was starting out.

So... Respect the kite and keep the kite forward of zenith when moving quickly. The advanced riders of course can loop, figure-8, etc. MOOms - keep it simple at first. :karate:

ssayre - 27-4-2016 at 12:34 PM

Anthonyshopguy, that story does sound familiar. I remember my first time building speed beyond my capability. I was riding with demoknight on a frozen montrose beach in chicago. I was using a 4m twister unhooked (thankfully or it would have been bad). Got going at a very good clip and had know idea what to do when I started to run out of room. I panicked, but luckily I could just let go of the kite which I did. I wasn't wearing kite killers and the lines ended up in such a mess that I had to do a line swap from another kite. an hour later of of sorting that out with frozen fingers, I was back riding. That was in the first few months of learning to kite. I actually haven't had any true lofty obe's. all mine were early on and usually I flipped the buggy on myself on my turns when I was less skilled. Not that I'm a pro now but I do have the fundamentals down.

WELDNGOD - 27-4-2016 at 01:16 PM

One more time for safety's sake... The little bitty rollover at the end of this video broke my shoulder and had to be surgically repaired. Out of work for 5 mos. No OBE,but there are several ways to get seriously hurt without an OBE when traction kiting.

https://vimeo.com/16678110

ssayre - 27-4-2016 at 01:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD  
One more time for safety's sake... The little bitty rollover at the end of this video broke my shoulder and had to be surgically repaired. Out of work for 5 mos. No OBE,but there are several ways to get seriously hurt without an OBE when traction kiting.

https://vimeo.com/16678110


Even though my pl probably flips easier, I see it a an advantage in a roll over being light weight. I definitely wouldn't want a heavy buggy coming down on me.

WELDNGOD - 27-4-2016 at 01:39 PM

131 lbs worth of buggy, hotwired to my a$$! I was the only person left out there too. Had to pack up about 80 lbs of gear and pull it on the buggy 1.5 miles back to the truck. In shock,and with an arm that wouldn't work anymore. I just kept telling myself not to pass out,or the ghost crabs would eat my face off before someone found me in the morning. :barf:

Windstruck - 27-4-2016 at 02:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD  
131 lbs worth of buggy, hotwired to my a$$! I was the only person left out there too. Had to pack up about 80 lbs of gear and pull it on the buggy 1.5 miles back to the truck. In shock,and with an arm that wouldn't work anymore. I just kept telling myself not to pass out,or the ghost crabs would eat my face off before someone found me in the morning. :barf:


Man, you could have been the character study for DiCaprio in The Revenant. :o

abkayak - 27-4-2016 at 02:22 PM

ghost crabs...the ultimate motivator

mOOms...i paddle...if the wind isnt cooperating and the bass arent running and all the chores are done

and yes a kite will serve in the yak as well

WELDNGOD - 27-4-2016 at 03:57 PM

The wife and I also Kayak fish in the Chesapeake bay and atlantic ocean as well. I do carry a kite or two for when we hit a deserted beach,but not on the kayak. Too much gear to lose if we turtle. Never know what you will catch! https://vimeo.com/100173178

m00ms - 29-4-2016 at 11:48 AM

hi all and thanks for your OBE stories,not sure if they encourage a buggy virgin but glad to hear you can all look back and laugh about them now.

i white water kayak in a jackson playboat which i am going to take with me to the coast so can have some fun on and under the water while i am there! i did wonder if you could mix kayaks and kites,is there a name for it as i did look around before for it with no joy.would love to have a read up on it.

Anthonyshopguy - 29-4-2016 at 07:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by m00ms  
hi all and thanks for your OBE stories,not sure if they encourage a buggy virgin but glad to hear you can all look back and laugh about them now.

i white water kayak in a jackson playboat which i am going to take with me to the coast so can have some fun on and under the water while i am there! i did wonder if you could mix kayaks and kites,is there a name for it as i did look around before for it with no joy.would love to have a read up on it.


Man oh man mOOms If I ever make it over to England we got to get together. White water boater for over 35 years. My go to play boat is a little out of style but I love it. Dagger Outlaw. Just ran some wimpy class 3 two days ago. All this snow we're getting is slowly turning into water. I'm so I'm really conflicted darn waters coming up, DARN freshies on the Mesa What to do.:smilegrin:

m00ms - 30-4-2016 at 10:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Anthonyshopguy  
Quote: Originally posted by m00ms  
hi all and thanks for your OBE stories,not sure if they encourage a buggy virgin but glad to hear you can all look back and laugh about them now.

i white water kayak in a jackson playboat which i am going to take with me to the coast so can have some fun on and under the water while i am there! i did wonder if you could mix kayaks and kites,is there a name for it as i did look around before for it with no joy.would love to have a read up on it.


Man oh man mOOms If I ever make it over to England we got to get together. White water boater for over 35 years. My go to play boat is a little out of style but I love it. Dagger Outlaw. Just ran some wimpy class 3 two days ago. All this snow we're getting is slowly turning into water. I'm so I'm really conflicted darn waters coming up, DARN freshies on the Mesa What to do.:smilegrin:


it does not matter if your boat is old or new as long as you enjoy it :) i paddle a jackson mon-star which i love to bits!

your area sounds amazing as for me i do not have natural white water close by but i do have artificial course called lee valley which was made for the 2012 olympics which is great fun,there is no gaps between the features so when you paddle you are on the go all the way down!!

m00ms - 4-5-2016 at 09:38 AM

hey all last week i brought a hq beamer 3m version 6 and have only flown it twice and didnt have any crashes but i have found a tear inside one of the top vents sadly.

i have spoken to the supplier and sent kite back for them to inspect but can i ask if anyone here could take a look at photos and give me there opinion on if i caused the damage somehow or not.

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/m00ms/image2.jpg

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/m00ms/image1.jpg

really gutted as how many times i crashed both my 2m & 4m beamers whilst learning and they are fine and this one got damaged just doing short static flights,if supplier does not warrant it hopefully i can get it fixed somehow as i expect the 3m to be my buggy virginity kite!!

ssayre - 4-5-2016 at 10:42 AM

If you didn't crash it and don't remember doing anything out of the ordinary, I can't imagine how you could have damaged it. Hopefully they will cover it or try hq direct if not.

abkayak - 4-5-2016 at 12:34 PM

i will say i never blew up any ribs w/out shredding them up somewhat...my destruction is thorough and complete

WELDNGOD - 4-5-2016 at 07:45 PM

Never blown out a cell, and I have had a few crashes LOL I bet I have 4 videos with a crash and relaunch ,while still moving in the buggy. Once on a kitebike! I'm thinking defect from factory. Does it look like a clean cut ? Like scissors make?

Devoted - 11-5-2016 at 05:06 PM

Hi and welcome.

I am not going to give advice. Others have done that already. So a quick hi and i hope rhe winds will be on your side.

Good luck

m00ms - 18-5-2016 at 10:41 AM

hi devoted and thanks yes i hope the winds behave for me and likewise for yourself.do you landboard then looking at your profile avatar?

not long for me to try buggy out!! one more week of work then i have 10 days off so i can go find some clean wind...cant wait.sadly still no word on my damaged hq 3m beamer so i might buy second hand 3m of some form if my beamer does not come back to me before my time off as i feel 3m is going to be my learner kite size.

hopefully not a silly question time... i take it my peter lynn buggy is fine on wet sand ie where tide has gone out?

ssayre - 18-5-2016 at 10:47 AM

Where is the beamer? maybe you could try using some sail tape or tear aid and tape the torn piece back in position. Looks like the inner cell wall tore loose? can't tell for sure.

abkayak - 18-5-2016 at 10:53 AM

the sand between the high and low tide marks is what its all about (hard pack) wave action compacts it
just pu a used 3m...youll need more than 1 someday

m00ms - 18-5-2016 at 11:26 AM

the beamer is back with the shop that supplied it,last time i spoke they were waiting to hear back from hq about it.annoying there are saying its impact damage as i did not crash it.whilst learning with my 2m &4m beamers same versions i crashed them so had i am suprised i did not damage those but the 3m i didnt crash it once.

thats good the wet tide sand is fine,i have not booked a lesson but thinking if i can find clean wind at start of time off then i will self teach my bugggy!

m00ms - 22-5-2016 at 09:57 AM

not long now till i get to break my buggy virginity!! what tyre pressures do people run on peter lynn comp. does somewhere around low 20s psi sound sensible start for a 15 stone idiot?

spoke to supplier of my 3m hq beamer and by all accounts its gone back to germany hq and once they receive it then a new one will be sent out to me

m00ms - 26-5-2016 at 09:59 AM

hey all i am going away to coast tomorrow for a couple of days to hopefully get some clean wind and try my buggy for first time.on friday wind is forecast at 14 mph and saturday 10 mph.

sadly my 3m beamer has not come back yet which leaves my kite options 2&4m hq beamers,really would of liked the 3m for first buggy attempt.

in 14 mph winds will my 2m move me in buggy or will 4m be to much to learn on?

abkayak - 26-5-2016 at 10:28 AM

both are worth a shot at launching and getting in the seat...err on the side of caution of course and start w/ the 2m if in doubt...no movement throw up the 4m
problem solved...have fun

be on the hardpak and you have a better chance to get going

m00ms - 26-5-2016 at 11:26 AM

that was my thinking as well putting the 2m up first and see.im not looking to break the land speed record this weekend but just be good to get buggy moving and get a feel for it.

ive checked tide times so going to get down there couple hours before low tide so i can explore and find somewhere out of the way and static fly until buggy time!!

looking forward to it and hoping to do well,sure in couple of days i will be on here saying how i got on and asking how do i do some thing questions! just set tyre pressures to low 20 psi,does that sound right for the wet sand where tide has gone out?

been and going to watch john holgates buggy video again,so thanks to john for your videos and to everyone here who has helped me along my way.

abkayak - 26-5-2016 at 12:04 PM

not wet sand...if its just wet sand you wont pbly move or bury the front tire and get ripped out of the bug...hardpack
waves gotta be hitting that beach and compressing that sand down...the skinnier the tire the harder the surface needs to be
i run mid/high teen air pressure w/ midi tires

m00ms - 26-5-2016 at 12:37 PM

glad i asked! i will wait for tide to go out then hopefully itll dry out so i can get out,going to try and find large grass area while i am down there that i can use while tide is in.

my buggy has standard size/width tyres so i will try different pressures and see which works best.

thanks again for your help and tips :)

abkayak - 26-5-2016 at 01:12 PM

how the f does this thread have 6254 views?

hiaguy - 26-5-2016 at 01:55 PM

Thread views seem to run 20 - 30 times the number of posts.
ymmv

Bladerunner - 26-5-2016 at 04:44 PM

Each beach is unique. The harder packed the better. Softer sand will mean you will need more power to move. We can ride the damp stuff with barrow tires out West. Basically any part of the beach I can drive on is OK for my barrow tires.

Softer tires work better on the semi hard pack.

Basically, if your kite doesn't have enough power to make you scud a bit on the sand it won't have enough power to move you.

If you are flying underpowered and generally at 1st, don't worry about getting upwind right away. Just worry about traveling cross wind and setting up your turns right. Getting and staying upwind will come in good time . Beginners always want to point their buggy too much upwind / cross wind. Point the buggy around 45 degrees down wind when starting.

Keep tension on your front lines! When you make that 1st power stroke avoid shooting so far down wind that you lose tension in your lines. Instead cut cross / upwind with your buggy and fly the kite back up. Creating a sine wave ~ with you kite and to a lesser degree with your buggy.

A handy thing to make is a TOW ROPE for your buggy ( and the walk of shame ) . A simple rope with loops on each end to go over your foot pegs will work.


m00ms - 27-5-2016 at 12:52 PM

hey all tried buggy today but sadly beach was well boggy between tides,there was some dry patches and got moving using the 2m but soon as you hit boggy spots i stopped dead! i spent ages driving around trying to find a grass area but no joy.did manage to sine wave kite and do couple of turns but gutted couldnt spend longer in buggy.

real shame as wind was perfect and so clean unlike janky local conditions i have been flying in.so much better and more fun in clean wind.no kite just falling out of sky or window changing direction mid flight and i could park kite at various spots on window edge!

going to go to the area where the lessons are held next as at least i will able to have another go in buggy.

sadly i failed but did try!

abkayak - 27-5-2016 at 06:28 PM

Broke your cherry that's the important thing...tomorrow you will do better
Every time you even set up and pack up you get better at this sport:thumbup:

m00ms - 28-5-2016 at 11:03 AM

thanks abkayak :)

got to have another brief go today in the buggy (until i got kicked out by a farmer!) got to use the 4m beamer today but that felt under powered the second i sat in the buggy!

managed to go down the field at 90 degrees to the wind but then when i turned i ended up with kite slightly over my shoulder behind me.need to learn some more me thinks.

m00ms - 31-5-2016 at 07:32 AM

hey all,

going to go to coast again tomorrow and have another go with the buggy.going to the place where lessons are held but try and self learn first!

the other day on the beach before sinking into sand! i found that wind was about 45 deg to beach so i could go one way along the beach but when i turned i found kite was slightly over my shoulder and i could not get back the way i had come from (walk of shame) is there a way around this or a name for it that i can read up on?

i have my 3m back now so hope i can make some progress tomorrow

WELDNGOD - 31-5-2016 at 08:08 AM

Downwinder day or you gotta tack back and forth about a million times . Give it your best shot sailor !:P

m00ms - 31-5-2016 at 08:32 AM

will do thanks,spot i am going to is known for buggys so i hope other people will be there so i can watch and learn.

Bladerunner - 31-5-2016 at 04:39 PM

Having a nice wide beach is a real advantage for working your way back upwind. You will have to work it back and forth gaining little bits of ground with each tack.

You can often spend 15 - 20 minutes working your way upwind then turn around and be back home in 2.

As mentioned be willing to give over to the down winder as you work on your upwind skills. It is far better to enjoy the ride and pay for it with a few " walks of shame " than to get all frustrated because you can't get upwind. ESPECIALLY if you suspect you are under powered! You need to be powered at the edge of the window to gain upwind ground so need to be comfortable well powered. That comes with seat time. Just like it did with fly time to this point.

You go where you look. A big part of riding , turning and getting upwind is to look where you want to go.

John Holgate - 31-5-2016 at 06:20 PM

The other trick is try and generate as much speed as possible before hitting the upwind line. If you try and turn straight into it, you'll just come to a stop. The higher aspect the kite, the better it's upwind ability will be. As Bladerunner said, the wider the beach, the more room to tack, the easier it will be. And you'll need plenty of power for the upwind leg too.

m00ms - 1-6-2016 at 06:31 AM

thanks all for your help and tips,was going to go away today,got up early and checked weather forecast to find it had changed and was due to be heavy rain from lunch on so i have stayed home,gutted!

really beginning to think uk is really not set up for buggy riding but going to stick with it.

Bladerunner - 1-6-2016 at 04:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by m00ms  


really beginning to think uk is really not set up for buggy riding but going to stick with it.


We all get those discouraged feelings! One good day and you completely forget about the B.S. before.

Believe it or not you live in one of the best places for buggy. Here in Vancouver we have a big honkin' island blocking our surf. Without it our sand isn't hard packed enough. We must drive 6 hours to the U.S.A. to ride decent beaches.

WELDNGOD - 1-6-2016 at 05:06 PM

On downwinders ,my wife drives a truck downwind to a predetermined pick up spot,then takes us back to start point.;)

ssayre - 1-6-2016 at 05:20 PM

Lining up wind and time is the frustrating part of what we do. It also makes it special and more rewarding when it works out.

WELDNGOD - 1-6-2016 at 06:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
Lining up wind and time is the frustrating part of what we do. It also makes it special and more rewarding when it works out.
Don't forget tide, just to complicate things even more.

3shot - 1-6-2016 at 07:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD  
Don't forget tide, just to complicate things even more.


Can I get an Amen!!!

m00ms - 3-6-2016 at 03:17 AM

thanks again guys for help and encouragement,going to try again saturday and possibly sunday so keep fingers crossed it works out this time!

m00ms - 4-6-2016 at 11:56 AM

hey all went to coast today to a buggy beach where lessons are held,did little static flying as tide was coming in then waited for tide to go back out to buggy.

while waiting i got chatting to one of the instructors who suggested doing an hour to hour and half lesson....what a joke! hardly got moving and even instructor gave me a "demo" and couldnt move much and when i ignored him i got moving! he also slackened by brake lines off so much that you couldnt reverse launch as too slack.surely thats not right ?

then to add insult they charged me extra as because usual prices are done as a group but because it was only me it was classed as a one on one lesson!

abkayak - 4-6-2016 at 02:45 PM

But that's how they make a living...so should be expected.
You gotta pay to play one way or another

Bladerunner - 4-6-2016 at 04:19 PM

I have had unfortunate experiences with poor wind and lessons ( on water ) also. It's part of the gamble when limited on time. In both cases the company was good to me. Continuing the lesson the next day in one case. Allowing me to use the gear on my own for the afternoon in another.

I can understand your being miffed but try and get over it. You WILL meet a lot of great people but they won't be influenced to help you if you go back with an attitude.

Just curious? What would you guess the wind speeds were? Is it just possible that you requested to use your own kites? I have a feeling that they could have gotten you going with a bigger kite than in your quiver?

m00ms - 5-6-2016 at 12:18 AM

thanks guys,i have cooled down little now.i am fully up for company making a living but way they went about it felt cheeky and i sure wont do more through or recommend them to others.

i wanted to pay before hand for couple of hours and just go from there but they wouldnt have it.my wrong for not insisting more.i stopped the lesson as felt we were not getting anywhere otherwise sure he would of carried on longer.

wind was about 8mph and i did ask if i could use my buggy and kites if suitable and guy was sure my 4m beamer would be fine,soon as i launched it i could tell it was not pulling hard enough but he carried on with it until i suggested using my 5.5 bullet which was loads better.

sadly have to chalk it down as bad choice and move on.next time i am going to not worry about up wind and just do some down winds with walk of shames just to get some interest which is very lacking at moment.

what was his thinking on super slack brake lines ? any ideas ?

WELDNGOD - 5-6-2016 at 06:14 AM

I think the guy was prolly trying to keep you from stalling the kite. I don't teach that way. I believe ya need to learn the way it is supposed to be set up.To make your downwinders last longer you can tack the buggy from the water to the edge of the soft stuff and then back to the water like in this video https://vimeo.com/145024222 . You can also tack back upwind the same way. You just edge upwind just a little bit each tack. Just takes a lot of tacks.

abkayak - 5-6-2016 at 07:42 AM

Ideally you want a perfect low tide 15mph onshore 3m day 1st time out IMO....but that's not how it tends to work....so you go when you can...I'm sure you learned plenty from them and will carry it forward...anybody can bug when theirs wind, learning how to bug when's theirs not a proper blow is a real trick you wanna have down

ssayre - 5-6-2016 at 08:15 AM

Do you have some soccer fields at home you can practice in? For inland grass riding, my most successful days were 15ish gusting 20 and a 4 meter kite. For succesul inland riding and fixed bridle kites I found I needed to size for the lulls and ride unhooked. Contrary to the popular belief of sizing for gusts. That doesn't work on thick turf because you stop dead on the lulls. The downside to sizing for lulls is you have to let go of the kite once in awhile but the thrills between were worth it to me.

ssayre - 5-6-2016 at 08:44 AM

Obviously good wind and tide conditions at the beach will be easier than inland but it's good to try and take advantage of every learning opportunity at home so when you get to a beach you will be able to make the most of it. Here is a video I made in my described inland conditions using a 4m fixed bridle. This was one of my first few times in the buggy but I had been flying static for over a year prior.

Windstruck - 5-6-2016 at 08:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
Obviously good wind and tide conditions at the beach will be easier than inland but it's good to try and take advantage of every learning opportunity at home so when you get to a beach you will be able to make the most of it. Here is a video I made in my described inland conditions using a 4m fixed bridle. This was one of my first few times in the buggy but I had been flying static for over a year prior.



Sean - I was watching this on my phone and glanced away just before the end. Something caught my eye and I rewound the ending seconds. Nice work at the end! Been there.... done that! So many bumps and bruises along the way. :smilegrin:

m00ms - 6-6-2016 at 11:48 AM

hi guys and thanks again.

thanks for your videos and weldngod loved the way you hopped out in your video and amazing control you have.

ssayre that was the first OBE that i have seen and crazy how quick it flicked you out and that a 4m did that!

not looking like much much wind this week but i will try work out my next step with buggy as too if i go coast again or find a field local.

i can see it being coast again really as place i went was perfect and my local fields are always really busy with dog walkers etc so probably get kicked off!

Demoknight - 6-6-2016 at 01:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 3shot  
Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD  
Don't forget tide, just to complicate things even more.


Can I get an Amen!!!


Jason I just saw your new avatar. Awesome!

Bladerunner - 6-6-2016 at 03:59 PM

I have a strong feeling that if you went back to the beach and go it alone the folks that gave you the lesson would give you pointers?
Really most pilots are free with advice. Especially if you tell them you took a lesson. It gets you respect.

Still, finding a good spot near home would be good.

m00ms - 16-10-2016 at 11:20 AM

hi all and sorry ive not been on here in a while,summer was busy for me and not much static flying or buggy practice happening sadly.

i do hope everyone here that has either helped me or are just part of the forum have had great flying times in which ever format they do.

i have flown through summer static when time would allow and have re tried buggy twice i think it was sadly but in really janky winds.i have just changed my van so have brought big enough van so i can sleep in it and will start going to coastal point i did a buggy lesson at for weekends away starting in next couple of weeks.

i cant wait as even in janky winds i have made some progress so sure with clean coast wind and plenty of time i will make great steps forward.

thanks again to all in the past that have helped me with questions and tips.

Kcleelaws - 1-11-2016 at 11:53 AM

m00ms - 6-11-2016 at 08:06 AM

hey all just thought i would give a buggy update as i went to coast friday so i could buggy first thing saturday morning.

with daylight and tide times i had about 3 & 1/2 hours on an empty beach,sadly wind to start with was very weak but came on good and strong for about the last 1 &1/2 hours.wind was about 13 mph and going out to sea at about a 45 degree angle.

i was using my hq beamer 4m and i mananged to zig zag the width of the beach making turns which need tiding up but happy i managed them! i could not work out how to get back to my start point so i walked back and started again.towards the end my 4m was water logged from crashes and my 3m beamer did not have enough power and i sure did not have enough balls to use my 5.5 bullet!

glad i have made some progress if only in very small quantity and look forward to next time

Bladerunner - 6-11-2016 at 10:35 AM

Way to go!

Sounds like you got some tricky winds to work things out. Off shore is usually dirty wind. Working your way back upwind with a 45' wind is a long struggle. Good for you just accepting the down winder and walking back. Struggling to get back would not have been fun.

To get back up the beach against a side wind you must take a whole lot of small attempts. If the beach isn't very wide the issue is even worse.
Some kites are better than others for upwind. Beamers aren't the best in that aspect but they will do the job. When you get comfortable with it your 5.5m Bullet will be an excellent engine! Try and get friendly with it. It's a great kite for everything but jumping.

One tip. You go where you look. If you want to go upwind look at something slightly upwind in that direction more and your kite less. When you are comfortable doing so.

m00ms - 6-11-2016 at 11:17 AM

hi bladerunner and i am so glad you said youve said that off shore wind is dirty as i did think that while flying static but i just tried with what i had! with the time that i had i did just want to get buggy movement in to get some enjoyment going so little walks i didnt mind.sure is a lot to learn with buggying!


the beach i was on is fairly wide but stayed very wet and boggy near the water but it gave me a nice dry packed large area away from water to play with but sadly i crashed kite into wet area few times! static flying i am very at ease with the bullet 5.5 but while learning buggy i am cautious of it.

thanks for the look where going tip which i will bear in mind next time,at the moment i must look well clumsy but sure il look more natural soon.

beach ive been going it has only been me in a buggy so far which is great so no one to trip over or to laugh at my wrongs but it would be great to watch and learn off others.

m00ms - 22-12-2016 at 04:10 AM

hi bladerunner just answering about the 7m bullet here to keep this post together.

i was hoping that the 7m would be a good day saver but i got it cheap and it came with a bar and a harness which i will ebay in the new year so its a good kite to add to the collection! love to hear your 19m is your day saver,maybe one day il be in same postion.

so far with the buggy i have not had any clean wind,i did go out a few weeks ago locally and was using my bullet 5.5m.i static flew first with buggy close by ready to jump into but yet again terrible wind,one minute its pulling good and hard then in a instant it had lost all power and bullet fell out of the sky!

i really do long for a session with great wind so that any wrongs i do i know is down to me and not the wind dropping.hopefully that time will come as so far i have not had an enjoyable session in buggy yet but am sticking with it.

Bladerunner - 22-12-2016 at 04:39 PM

The 7m will fill a gap and was a good choice if it was a good price. As mentioned I bought a 9m Blade once my skills were up for low wind. It served me well and I will never sell it but .... even it wasn't any good in sub 3mph winds.

Don't be too impressed by the 19m. It is a depower kite and I can actually hold it down when my 10.8m Reactor would be too much if I gained a lot of apparent wind.

Yes, trying to get settled into the buggy is tough at 1st. Even with clean wind. Don't blame yourself if you struggle with it in messy wind. A good way to judge if it is the wind causing trouble is to take note on if you can fly static standing in one place. If that is a struggle then odds are learning to settle into the buggy will be tough. It gets easier!

Once you are confident you can " hot launch " your kite sitting in the buggy and take off that way in sketchy wind. Then keep it low and GO!

m00ms - 23-12-2016 at 12:28 PM

your 10.8m reactor looks impressive and being a fixed bridle is it a hand full?

i have wondered about getting a de power to try but i found that when i tried a bar on my hq beamers i did not like it at all,should i ignore that experience and just get a small de power to try? also would de power be harder or easier whilst learning buggy?

sure is tricky getting settled in the buggy and i have made certain changes so far,being tall i have cut and lengthened steering down tube as i kept hitting elbows on my knees then crashing kite! and the last time out at the beach i got kite killer caught around front wheel so i don't use them any more!

hopefully on this christmas break i will get to rest elbow for couple more days then if wind allows get out and have another go in the buggy.

just looked on first page of this thread and funny how this time last year i had only ever flown a single line kite and was asking for advice on 2 and 4 line kites and now i have 5 kites from 2-7m and a buggy....! many thanks to all on here that have helped and taken time to give me tips and pointers.

m00ms - 20-1-2017 at 09:43 AM

hey all thinking of going to coast tomorrow to have another buggy go but i think wind is going to be an off shore wind (going out to sea) am i right in saying that off shore wind is not clean wind ?

if its not clean wind am i wasting my time going to try as my buggy experience is very low and clumsy currently!

abkayak - 20-1-2017 at 01:19 PM

Off shores are usually not clean but can be a hell of a lot of fun as long as they aren't shutting off on you...I tend to stay closer to my starting spot w/ shorter runs and always have a 2nd kite w/ me because I will push my luck and drop the kite in the ocean at some point...
Any day out only makes you better at what your doing and that's the end game
Have fun, size for the gusts if its an option

m00ms - 21-1-2017 at 10:41 AM

i went to coast today and the wind was actually an inshore wind and was very clean.with tide times i managed just over four hours and made loads of progress and can now see the excitement in buggying!

not sure of the correct terms and names yet but i managed to zig zag down the beach although on my turns i kept letting lines go slack so i need to read up more on turns.also managed to park and ride i think you call it whilst steering keeping lines super tight.

i did manage to get back up towards my start point a few times but found that i needed to turn clockwise but the kite was out to my left so i could only turn anti clockwise.hope that makes so sense?

abkayak - 21-1-2017 at 04:38 PM

:thumbup::thumbup:...terms and names do not really matter...seat time does
This proves you miss 100% of the pitches you don't swing at

m00ms - 19-2-2017 at 11:17 AM

hey all took my buggy to the coast saturday and had my first "obe!"

managed some good runs along beach in both directions when i had kite over to my left hand side with all going well and good speed when i turned right too much,buggy went from forwards to backs then when i tried to correct it i flipped buggy and out i popped...nothing hurt or damaged so i thought it was funny!

something i am finding is that when trying turns i seam to do it on edge of window and lose line tension because of it,any help on way would be much appreciated.

Bladerunner - 19-2-2017 at 11:56 AM

It's been fun sharing in your progression.

YES, you REALLY NEED to work on keeping tension on the front lines at ALL times! That is all important.

Without a video it is hard to judge but I bet you are starting your turns too early?

Here is a simple run down on how I turn. As you set up for a turn bring the kite up and turn upwind scrubbing off speed. Once the kite is high and speed has slowed I initiate the kite and begin either an up-turn or down turn. I try to time turning the buggy until the kite is about to pull in the new direction. Setting up for the turn when the kite hits that 1/2 second of no pull but NOT turning until the lines are about to tighten again. It's all about timing. If you turn the kite fast you must turn fast to keep up tension. With a long swooping down turn you can make a slower wider turn. If you run too far down wind too fast you will lose tension .

m00ms - 19-2-2017 at 01:04 PM

thanks bladerunner and i am glad you have enjoyed sharing in my progression and i am very happy and grateful that yourself and others on here can take time to help me.

i am really starting to enjoy this sport now and reading your turns makes sense so i will try that next time out which will hopefully be next weekend.

many thanks again and i hope you are getting out plenty

xuanh231 - 22-2-2017 at 12:36 AM

Hello! i'm newbie1 Nice to meet you everyone :D

Windstruck - 22-2-2017 at 08:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by xuanh231  
Hello! i'm newbie1 Nice to meet you everyone :D


Welcome to the Monkey House xuanh231! Always room for a few more good chimps. :smilegrin: What brings you here?

m00ms - 19-3-2017 at 10:10 AM

hey all only managed to buggy once recently but in really janky winds but hey ho!

recently brought a mbs landboard so il keep that for once i have tidied up my buggy skills.

i really fancy trying a depower and looking at couple of second hand ozones,6&10m access and 10m frenzy,would any of them be a good first depower or could anyone recommend another option i could look out for?

thanks

Windstruck - 19-3-2017 at 10:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by m00ms  
hey all only managed to buggy once recently but in really janky winds but hey ho!

recently brought a mbs landboard so il keep that for once i have tidied up my buggy skills.

i really fancy trying a depower and looking at couple of second hand ozones,6&10m access and 10m frenzy,would any of them be a good first depower or could anyone recommend another option i could look out for?

thanks


The Access kites are great first depowers. Particularly V6 and V7 versions as they have a true 5th line safety with what Ozone calls their re-ride system which is outstanding. The Frenzy is an intermediate kite of sorts, sort of half way between Ozone's Access and Summit kites. It has plenty of lift in the right (wrong) circumstances as I unfortunately (barely) lived to find out this past summer. Frenzy's also have Re-Ride in their newer versions. I've read that earlier versions of the Frenzy are not as nice as their newer ones, but I don't have first hand experience with older models.

Another fine sort of entry-level DPs are the single skins. Here we're talking Flysurfer Peaks and Born-Kite LongStar-2s. Any version (1, 2, or 3) will do for the Peaks, but I would steer away from a LongStar-1.

m00ms - 19-3-2017 at 11:03 AM

thanks windstruck for your reply,the frenzy 10m is a 2005 and im not sure what year the accesses are,the 6m is two tone blue and the 10m is turquoise and blue both with the white tick strip if that gives you an idea of there year that would be great.

m00ms - 20-3-2017 at 11:37 AM

i did some google reading some of which showed up old posts from here and have a secondhand ozone frenzy 10m 05 on route to me now.

i understand its an old depower but i didnt seam to read anything negative about it and i think i got it at a good price.just need to do some reading up on lauching,landing and safety side of it now so that i can try it out once i get it.

would i be right in little reading so far that wind around 10-12 mph would be a good first time try for it? also is then any depower guides that anyone knows of?

B-Roc - 20-3-2017 at 11:55 AM

I learned to kite ski on a 2005 10m Frenzy. Don't remember much about it other than it being grunty. It is undoubtedly a slow turner compared to today's kites (which I would prefer). It also will be a bit more boxy / lower A/R and not the same profile as today's Frenzy. In 2005 it was considered Ozone's most aggressive and lifty kite. Today the Frenzy is considered one of Ozone's more stable performance kites. It has a top hat safety system which I do recall worked but I also recall times when I couldn't get the kite to relaunch after popping the safety so I had to get creative when staking the kite on ice and walking to it and sorting lines and bridles, etc. I also had a 2006 Access and I recall that still had some power in it when the safety was deployed. I don't recall if that was an issue on the 05 Frenzy but imagine it could be. Start out in winds no more than 10mph so you get familiar with how to launch, relaunch, pop the safety and relaunch the kite again in controllable conditions. Then as your comfort progresses so will your useable windrange. Good luck and be safe.

I think the chicken loop on that has a steel pin that protrudes a bit and can cut the sail if you aren't careful with how you pack it. I could be wrong. I know the 06 Access did. I didn't like that setup.

I also remember that staking the landing strap on the 06 Access didn't always kill it enough to prevent ghost launches or an uncontrolled flapping kites. Pretty sure that could also be the case with the Frenzy.

Apologies for remembering more about the Access than I do about the frenzy. I was generally more underpowered on the Frenzy and overpowered on the Access so I remember the negatives more on the Access.

m00ms - 20-3-2017 at 01:06 PM

hi b-roc and thanks for your tips and pointers and no need for apolgies as any information is a bonus as i have no depower knowledge (yet!).

i was looking at an access but the frenzy came up first so i thought i need to start somewhere so lets give it a go.with everything going on at home i wont get to try it for about a week or so which will give me reading and learning time.

thanks again and il keep you posted and probably rake your brains if i get stuck!

m00ms - 1-6-2017 at 10:48 AM

hey all just thought id do a little buggy update as i have not in ages.i was struggling with turns and kept loosing line tension.

recently brought a cameleon iquana mk1 buggy second hand and i have just got back from a couple of days down at the coast near me to try it out.

wind was very low at 6-8 mph and going down the beach rather than across but i have managed now to tack back up to my start point and feel very controlled ,really looking forward to next time out as well now.

also got to meet one of the members from this site when i noticed his profile was very close to where i live so big hello to jim and i hope your having fun in wales with family.

Demoknight - 1-6-2017 at 12:00 PM

The trick that newbies seem to always get wrong in the buggy is the turns. You can't milk turns. You have to commit and turn quickly while the kite is going through the window or else you will lose tension on the lines and stall the kite and possibly run over your lines.

Windstruck - 1-6-2017 at 06:14 PM

Demoknight is right of course. Turns in a buggy, particularly with low wind (and therefore I assume a large slow moving kite) need to be initiated quite late in the travel back by the kite in the other direction. It will need to seem almost too late, but as the kite passes back behind you (sort of when it goes past you in the other direction) turn the front wheel hard and let the kite pull you through the turn. When the winds are higher (and the kite thus smaller and faster in the air) it is possible to turn earlier and do some quick corrections back and forth with the kite to keep line tension if need be. You simply can't do this with a big lumbering barge in the sky. You'll come to find that different turns work better with different kites and corresponding conditions. Practice, practice, practice.

Glad you are getting some buggy time in!

m00ms - 2-6-2017 at 01:07 AM

hi demonknight i sure did have trouble with turns as im sure most do to start with,many times going right under the kite and over the lines as i did the other day which sadly broke a line but its all learning!

hi windstruck i was using a 7m bullet so yes very slow moving but it gave "thinking time" which was very needed ! i am curious how il get on with smaller kite on a stronger wind day so i look forward to a new challenge.

really am enjoying buggy now as i didnt to start with but now its making sense and im not spending most of my time untangling lines it great fun,my new cameleon buggy on big feet is fanastic.

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l624/m00ms/s-l1600%2013....

Windstruck - 2-6-2017 at 11:08 AM

Great looking seat and backrest set up on that rig. Looks sturdy and comfortable. Good stuff. :thumbup:

3shot - 2-6-2017 at 12:27 PM

Nice looking buggy. Tacking upwind back to home base is a huge step. Congrats! You will get better with the turns. It's all a timing thing as mentioned. Keep practicing. In 6-8 mph, that 7m bullet is begging for downturns though :evil::thumbup:

m00ms - 3-6-2017 at 07:55 AM

thanks for the positive comments on my buggy guys as i am well pleased with it.

thanks 3shot on my tacking back which i surprised myself in doing so super happy,funny you mention downturns as whilst trying kite in different positions with my turns i did do downturns which i can see the benefit of.

going to pop out shortly too look at a non used airfield which is local and i had forgotten about too see if its any use so fingers crossed it is so.

Windstruck - 3-6-2017 at 09:04 AM

Quote: Originally posted by m00ms  
thanks for the positive comments on my buggy guys as i am well pleased with it.

thanks 3shot on my tacking back which i surprised myself in doing so super happy,funny you mention downturns as whilst trying kite in different positions with my turns i did do downturns which i can see the benefit of.

going to pop out shortly too look at a non used airfield which is local and i had forgotten about too see if its any use so fingers crossed it is so.


If the airfield works that could be a great playing field. I've often thought it would be cool to go screaming down a runway in my buggy under kite power. Really low rolling resistance so really high potential speeds. Turns would be interesting! I could see going off road into the grass for the turns. Could get dicey, but lots of fun! I'd definitely want to dress in all the "plastic courage" (body armor) I could find.

m00ms - 3-6-2017 at 11:49 PM

sadly the airfield has had trouble with people taking motorcycles over there so it has been sectioned off with barriers to stop high speed runs.

the sections are big enough so i thought id use one to try my turns some more but sadly wind was all over the place,gusting,dropping off and changing direction needless to say i didnt do too well!

think i need to stick to clean coastal wind till im a little bit better!

bobalooie57 - 4-6-2017 at 04:21 PM

I used to have access to a private airstrip when I lived up north. It was fun, but the wind had to be just right.

https://youtu.be/PpFfdbrDL-c


I forgot what a gusty day that was!

Demoknight - 15-6-2017 at 12:41 PM

Coastal winds are the way to go, especially for a beginner. Once you become experienced, you will still prefer the clean coastal stuff just because it is so consistent and forgiving, allowing you to remove that variable while you learn new techniques.

m00ms - 9-7-2017 at 10:19 AM

hey all!

been doing really well in the buggy lately and have meet up with a fellow buggy rider from here (hello jim!) who is a top guy so really grateful to this forum.we went to camber sands and had about 4 hours on the beach doing long runs up and down the beach and towards the end just going through wet sand patch and right up and into sea slightly.

jim was a little off with camber from previous times but seams to be slight changes on the beach which made him a fan again which is great as its a fairly close location for us both.i had a rather cool OBE which left me with cool bruised hip but even that couldnt wipe smile off my face as for me that was my best buggy day so far.

really really enjoying this sport now and looking forward to next and future times out.
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