General Born-Kite discussion.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck   Quote: Originally posted by ssayre   Ah, I see. Yes if I was using strictly or mostly static I would definitely go handles. Just for fun you should try 4 line without z bridle. That's the most enjoyable option for static flying them for me personally. I would still go z bridle before bar for static fly. Nice idea. At some point I'll try disconnecting the criss-crossing pigtail. Next on my list, however, is flying my Peak2s from handles. :karate: Peak on handles sounds like a great plan! I've been wanting a peak handle session but haven't had the time and wind for quite awhile.

I had the time and plenty of wind on Sunday, but alas, not the rig kite. My 4m P2 is out for some post-Ivanpah repairs and I didn't dare launch my 6m for a maiden voyage with winds gusting over 20 mph.

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

Quote: For any better intel we better tie down John Holgate, though I suspect he doesn't know either or is sworn in a blood pact to absolute secrecy! He doesn't know!! I have asked Steffen on several occasions about the Ultra Star but he's never mentioned them to me apart from saying they were more like the Peak - but that was a year or two ago. To give you an idea about brake input while in motion - at one point I had the two trailing edge bridle sets connected to a pair of brake lines on a bar with no z bridle. The wind pressure at 40kph on the brake lines was enough to pull some brake on and the NS2 went backwards - while I was doing 40kph in the other direction. After that, I started rigging the Z bridles up and made sure there was a little slack in the 'extra' brake lines. I've used the z bridle on handles and the bar and while it works fine, I just don't see any advantage over the three line bar. The NS's park nicely on their nose and I haven't felt the need to use brakes. The NS's will launch from inverted with a determined tug so I like to keep things as simple as possible. The Long Stars will not recover from an inverted position without brakes so your basically stuck with needing all five lines for them.

Does anyone know if the ns3 is the same as the ns2 for setting up handles? The website shows the ns2 instructions so I can only assume it's the same. If you look close, I think on picture shows the bottom 4 pair of bridles going to the brakes while another picture shows the bottom 2. It's been awhile since I converted on to 4 lines. How many pair of bridles are you guys putting on the brakes?

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

disregard. I found it.

When I bought my Z-bridles from Steffen a few weeks back he sent me a piece of paper with the NS3 bridle splits. This picture applies for smaller NS3s. Larger NS3s have additional bridling that would need to be accounted for.


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Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

dang. I just spent a good long while splitting the bridles and it what I found on his website did not match this. I only have the bottom 2 pair in the brake along with the servo bridle and the first set on the outside tips which this shows in with power. Thanks Steve. I'll give it a whirl how I have it now and change If needed.

I have to say, intuitively I'd add the tips to the brake lines. Depending on the size of the NS3 I suspect a little experimentation will be necessary.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

I tried it both ways. The method shown on your drawing worked better. You would think the bottom bridles on the wing tips should go to brakes but in practice it doesn't fly as nice and doesn't seem to be necessary. It will fly either way but was a definite improvement set up like your diagram.

Good to know. That was Steffen's drawing so it figures he would know !

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

When I bought my Z-bridles from Steffen a few weeks back he sent me a piece of paper with the NS3 bridle splits. This picture applies for smaller NS3s. Larger NS3s have additional bridling that would need to be accounted for. [img][/img]

It was way past time to bring this Born-Kite worship thread back up to the top of the heap where it belonged! :evil:

At IBX last week I had a chance to shake the cobwebs off my remaining three small NS3s (1.5, 2.5, and 3.2m). Winds were quite high one afternoon and I got to buggy with the 1.5m for the first time. It was bloody fast! Wholly mackerel it was fast. Strong armed from handles (no strop and harness) really required strong concentration on my part to keep it from darting around like the proverbial furious wasp on a string people refer to. Flying this small NASA on handles really brought home for me the essence of buggying and I loved the raw, direct feeling it gave me and the connection I had with wind as motive power. Clearly, I had spent too much time disconnected from the wind with my DP setups. As the wind died down I was able to progress through the 2.5m and eventually the 3.2m. By the time I got to the 3.2m it seemed so delightfully slow and smooth and I was able to relax a bit. Eventually as the light faded from the sky I hooked in to my 3-line bar and did a few long relaxed runs with the 3.2m without the strain on my arms, essentially controlling the kite with 1 pinkie. NASA bliss!

As some may know I used to own a complete (and I mean complete) quiver of NS3s but either sold or gave to good friends all but these smallest three kites. In retrospect I dug too deep and I just re-ordered a 4.0m NS3 from Steffen, again with his z-bridles. Oh well. This four-kite NS3 quiver should have me dialed in for what I want to do in the buggy with NASAs.

I know the NASAs are simple little SS kites, but I love them! Steffen makes a sturdy kite and mine have withstood many a pile driving into the unforgiving surface of Lake Ivanpah and are doing great. Long live the NASA Star! :karate:

Quote: Originally posted by oldben

Guess you cant have too much kite stuff.

The rule is N+1

For those interested in NASA kite design I thought I'd forward on some interesting things about Born NASAs. It turns out Steffen has a patent on how his third line actuates and functions. Got to love how Steffen continues to innovate in the SS world; there's not nearly enough of that going on IMHO.

The Attachment is the first page of the 3rd line patent, issued a few years back in Germany.

Attachment: DE102010052081A1_1.pdf (14kB)
This file has been downloaded 272 times

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I've never seen a NS1 in the flesh, but I now know that he had an adjustable bridle system that affected the trailing edge of the NASA Star. He didn't stay with that design because supposedly every Nasa shape loses its dimensional stability as the trailing edge moves up, resulting in considerable deterioration in traction. I can attest to that with first hand experience. I have my NS3s strung with Z-bridles which essentially do this exact action when I put enough tension on my brake lines to actuate the Z-bridles. I have all four of my NS3s like this (1.5, 2.5, 3.2, and 4.0m) and the deterioration of the flying characteristics seems to amplify with each step down in kite size. Once I'm flying the 2.5, and especially the 1.5m, this change in flying characteristics really gets pronounced.

Finally, it appears that DFO may be infringing on Steffen's patents with their 3rd line. I'd leave final judgement to patent attorneys of course; from experience I know that such decisions lie in detailed examinations of claims language, predicate art, etc. Good times; lawyers get richer and inventors tend to get poorer and angry. Been there.

Someone should call and tell uncle Donald T that it's a N.A.S.A. original design. That way he can re classify it as military technology and probably sanction Germany, maybe bomb Holland if someone will show him whwere it is on a map.



Thanks for the info, if I want any DFO I better push up my schedule while it's still available.

Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline

Someone should call and tell uncle Donald T that it's a N.A.S.A. original design. That way he can re classify it as military technology and probably sanction Germany, maybe bomb Holland if someone will show him whwere it is on a map. Thanks for the info, if I want any DFO I better push up my schedule while it's still available.

Steady on Sally, steady on. Let's not head down the political rabbit hole and ruin PKF. :moon:

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

I think the NASA wings were always in the public domain. All of the reports that they produced with the wind tunnel tests, etc seem to have been made public. I don't think, however, that NASA ever thought anyone would be make kites out of them to move buggies around. (In fact, I'm not even sure that kite buggies had been invented in the 1950's and 60's). Below is rather interesting article about the NASA program. Though it deals more with paragliders, the NPW's were part of the same program and ended up with the same fate. The paraglider in the article featured an inflatable wing which arguably presaged with LEI kites that made kitesurfing the sport it is today. https://www.popsci.com/paraglider-how-nasa-tried-and-failed-...

Just read the article. Cool! I was born in 1961 so I got double the pleasure with this time piece. Thanks for posting Randy!

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

My impression is that it seems to me like Steffen isn't necessarily putting patents on the kites so much as the methods of bridling, controlling and depowering them. Am I wrong?

Yes, Spencer, I believe you have it right. In the biotechnology drug world we refer to such patents as Method Patents, as compared to Composition of Matter patents. Translating (I think) to the kite world, that would mean he isn't attempting to patent kites (centuries of predicate art); rather, as you said, patenting methods of controlling kites to change their behavior or give them (perceived) desirable characteristics that meaningful change the way they fly, improve on safety, etc.

]

6 rings drawn by 3 loops = a reef.

Here's my rig

Steffen just let me know that Born-Kite is coming out with V-4 of his venerable NASA kites, the NS4. The NS4s will feature better BODAPRE bridle lines. These bridle lines are the same material he introduced with the RaceStars. I really like this new bridle material and find it a vast improvement over his legacy bridle line material. More expensive per meter, and worth every Euro IMHO.

According to Steffen, the NS4s will have a new profile, less bridling, new bridle material as mentioned above, and a new color scheme as you can see below. I haven't seen it, but he told me that the new NS4 bar will have a "depower bungee" allowing the NS4s to be flown with a harness or by hand. I suspect he is working in some design features as a type of cross over from his StreetStars. The NS4s are said to work on 20m lines (standard configuration), on shorter lines, or directly from the bar, so they should work well for all of our various styles of kiting.

The NS3s were my original SSs and sort of a "first love" for me. Nowadays I mostly use DP SS in the buggy and reserve my NS3 flying for nice static sessions when my family takes beach vacations. My plan out of the gate is to get hold of a 2.5m NS4 when available but hold onto my custom 1.5m NS3 and my custom 3.2m NS3 that I won in a lottery on XK (doh!).

You will need to come to IBX2019 for a chance to own my 2.5 or 4.0m NS3s; I plan to donate them into an enhanced raffle my good friend iPaul (JeepersJoey) is spearheading. :saint:

I know I gush on and on about Born-Kites and likely seem like some sort of pimp for them. In fact, I have honestly greatly enjoyed getting to know Steffen over recent years via email and greatly admire his spirit of innovation and willingness to forge a place in the market with so many "big boys" taking most of the spotlight. I root for the underdog consistently in sports too. The world has too few Steffens IMO, and I appreciate his spirit and support it. The fact that he makes darn good products that fit my needs makes it all come together. Nuff said. :karate:


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Quote: Originally posted by Randy

I'm glad Born is still working on the NASA Star line. I think the NPW still has its place in the traction kite world. Less bridling is good think for NPW's for sure. Be interested in seeing video's showing his new DP system. If someone could put an effective depower on the NPW it would be a big improvement.

I certainly agree that it would be interesting to see successful DP bridling for an NPW. Please note, however, that these NS4s continue to be FB, essentially two line kites with a tertiary nose line for safety and "scrunching". No DP here. I'm really completely unclear by what he means by a "depower bungee". We'll have to wait and see!

I'm planning on getting just a 2.5m NS4 and intend to fly it on my original B-K NS3 setup bar.

Depower bungee does sound mysterious. Peter Lynn used shock cords in the secondary bridles on the Peel kites to handle gusts many years ago. It does seems like a bungee on the kill line might prevent an OBE by absorbing some of the energy. I await a Stefan video showing it in action.

THIS JUST IN

NS4s available by end of the month!!!! I'm going to get my hands on a 2.5m NS4 and put my 2.5m NS3 (and 4.0m NS3) into the IBX 2019 Thursday night raffle. Be there for a chance to own a piece of history!

Oh, and was it mentioned that the 4's will have less bridling than the 3's? Steffen is using the new (and greatly improved) BODAPRE bridle line on these beauties introduced with the RaceStars.

When the wind is right these NASAs are incredibly pleasurable buggy engines.

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Quote: Originally posted by Randy

It seems to me that the bridle line material being used is a bit different issue from the number of bridles used. I suppose if the bridles stretched less then having more load on fewer bridles would be a problem. However, the number of bridles is a trade-off between the drag from the "dips" in the canopy, vs. the drag of bridle lines and the better profile shapes. With NPW's it seems that adding more bridles to the preceding version has usually been a pathway to better performance. The first NPW single keels had about 20 bridles. The NPW 5and 9's had 36* bridles to produce a twin keel and performed better. The NPW 5-P and 9b mods had 48* and flew even better. The NS2 has about 60* bridles. This is the first time, someone has gone the other direction. I've wondered how many bridles and NPW really needs. I even built a 2 M NPW 5 with about half the usual number of bridles to see how it did. Didn't perform nearly as well until I added the missing bridles back. Anyway, kudos to Born for continued innovation. * Here I mean the number of bridles attachment points, which ignores cascade bridles which increase the number bridles even more and arguably produce better results as well.

Randy, you bring up superb and well thought out points, and of course speak from a position of actual experience building kites of this general nature and test flying them in various stages of completeness. Your comment about "dips" in the fabric makes a lot of sense and seems a possible direct trade-off to having less bridling.

While I don't know this exactly, it seems to me that perhaps Steffen's urge to lessen the number of bridles is a way of creating less bridles to tangle. An abundance of bridling with SS kites does seem to lead to more frustration at times. What I can tell you because I have Steffen's new BODAPRE bridle line on my RaceStars is that this new material is somewhat stiffer and more slippery than the predecessor line material. This was a BIG improvement IMO in the RaceStars, and Steffen has told me that each new iteration of existing kite lines (NS4s, LS3s, etc.) will newly incorporate this improved bridle material. I've had some nasty rats nests with my old LS2s and old NS3s and would welcome the new material in such kites. If flight dynamics aren't overly compromised then I guess I'd take less bridles if I could. Time will tell.

I'm holding onto my 1.5 and 3.2m custom NS3s and will snuggle a new 2.5m NS4 between these two. Once the wind is light enough that I want more traction than the 3.2m NS3 can provide I'll pull out my trusty 5.0m RS. Winner winner chicken dinner!

Steve, good point on tangling. The choice of material can make a huge difference. I got some kevlar line once and used it to make some brake line bridles. It tangled virtually every time I used it and always managed to get wrapped up in the power lines. I'll never use kevlar again. I have been working on putting depower capability into my g-kites and one of the frustrations is that putting those pulleys and extra lines in does create more opportunity for entanglements.

I guess the extra bridles on the NS2 and 3's were needed tor the "half-pipes." Maybe he figured out he didn't need as many as he was using. Or maybe he is doing it with more cascading. Cascade bridles do tangle less and save on the total amount of line. Be interesting to see how he does it.

I've now ended up with the NS2 7.0 and 5.5 that went from Srefan to Sean (I think) to Oldben to Spencer before ending up here. Not sure I will keep the 5.5 because it covers the same range as my 5.0 NPW 21, but I don't like the way the 21's fly on a bar so I may stick with the 5.5.

Randy, went to the bigger puter, little better screen.
Seems like 4 legged bridles, not 3.
Try to figure where the "19%" reduction comes in, it looks like more.

Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline

Randy, went to the bigger puter, little better screen. Seems like 4 legged bridles, not 3. Try to figure where the "19%" reduction comes in, it looks like more.

You guys are great! I put the original picture up on my computer monitor and can confirm what Ed is saying, viz., that for this 5.5m NS4, each side has 6 sets of bridles coming off the middle (or "belly") portion of the sides, each splitting to four unique attachment points. That would put it at 48 points of bridle attachment in the belly of the kite. There appears to be five single bridle lines coming off each side of the kite out on the edge so that makes for 10 more long bridle lines, taking the grand total of contact points with the kite to 58 and the number of long bridle lines to 22.

I've owned at some point NS3s in every size available from 1.5m all the way up to 12.0m. The amount of bridling gradually increases with size. I suspect the same will be true for the NS4 line as well.

I have to say that I like what Steffen has done here, viz., splitting the "belly" bridles into four short lines each. This seems to be a great compromise. Lots of points of contact on the kite surface to minimize what Randy is calling "dips". This grouping-of-four further decreases the sheer number of long bridles per kite which would be a win-win-win: less lines to tangle, less to provide parasitic drag, and lower cost (Steffen told me that the new bridle material is quite a bit more expensive per meter than his older bridle material). Nice!

Here is a nice side by side picture of the NS4 vs NS3 that shows off the differences in the bridling. The picture was intended to show that the NS4 is "flatter" than the NS3 but I'm challenged to see that since the kites are at different angles relative to the camera.

For our latest discussion, I like how this side by side comparison allows one to look at how the bridling has been modified. In the NS3s the "belly" bridles are paired in sets of two attachment points each and repeat all the way up the kite. In the NS4 these belly bridles are grouped in sets of four making self contained little rectangular patches all the way up and use half the long bridle lines as the V3s.

It seems that the perimeter bridle lines remain all singles. Randy, as the actual NPW Sartor* in the mix, how might you speculate things would go if Steffen had created pairs of two attachment points leading to one long bridle line along the perimeter? It would have been a consistent extension of the bridle reduction strategy used in the belly of the V4s.

*"Sartor": masculine form of the noun "Seamstress". Google also offered up "Seamster" (too uniony for my taste) and "Tailor" (too boring). Sartor sounded the studliness to me so I went with that! :P


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Steve,

That would be pretty standard way of doing the bridling. Most of the NPW's I've made have cascade bridles on the wing perimeter. I don't quite know why he didn't go with that. The only reasons I can think of is that you don't save that much line doing it, and you might end up with one odd line for the last couple of bridles on the wing. The last bridle on the wing may also be used as brake line when flying with handles so it needs to be on a separate line to work correctly. I have two different diagrams from Born for using the NS2 with Z-bridles, one uses the last bridle on the wing for braking while the other doesn't. Doing cascade bridling takes more time so there a trade off there. Also, the bridles on the wings probably are more prone to catching something on the ground, so he might have wanted to used heavier lines there.

BTW - some people use the term sewist as a gender but I never cared for that. Sartor sounds as good as anything.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Steve have you seen the new bridle material in person yet? Looks a bit unusual - seems like it is sort of stiff. That could be beneficial for avoiding tangles.

I have. This new fancy line is stock on the RaceStars. Vast improvement over the super soft and flexible bridle line used on all Born Kites before the release of the RaceStars. Steffen let me know that it is his plan to move the entire Born Kite line to this new bridle material over time, so expect LS3s, SS2s (StreetStars) with their eventual releases to also feature this new line.

As for the tangling issue, it is my distinct impression that this new bridle material does tangle less than his traditional line. I've had some nasty, nasty tangles with his older kites but so far I've not had issues with the RaceStars.

Quote: Originally posted by alf

how about depower bar with 4 lines ? that s the way i like nasawings as a add to street kiting

You can't just say that! Show us/me the rig :puzzled:

Quote: Originally posted by alf

how about depower bar with 4 lines ? that s the way i like nasawings as a add to street kiting

Alf, are you talking about the "StreetStar"?

Born-Kite StreetStar

I'm not sure how popular this SS kite line has been. I suspect Steffen will address his most popular kite lines first as he did now with the NasaStar-3s and (hopefully) soon the LongStar-2s. The RaceStars were the first line to get this new bridle material standard and it is my understanding that all updates that may come foward will use this new bridle line.

Thanks for clearing that up. If there's a new way to fly a Star on a bar I am interested.

Steve I noticed the Born kite NS4 didn't come with a price increase, I'm thinking he's at fair market value already. I guess I'll replace one of my NS3's that needs it the most and see if the kite got better. Personally I've never had a bridle tangling problem however I would welcome the durability of the higher quality lines.

Ed,

I did a 4 line bar setup with my NPW 21s. Haven't done it yet with an NStar, but this is how I would do it. First, I would break up the bridle lines for flying with quad handles. Then I would attach the two middle lines to the power lines and two outer lines to the brakes. It would take some tweaking to get it to the right brake setting, but I would go with something that is just a bit less brake than it takes for the NPW to fly backwards. Pulling on the power lines a little will then kill a backstall (which is why I did it) or if you pull it a lot the nose will fold over and you then quasi - depower the kite but it is not a very effective way to depower. Here is a video showing how it worked. I didn't feel like the steering was as good as a 3 line bar or 4 line handles, but it was ok.

https://vimeo.com/308917388

Another method for 4 line. Note - these setups assume you are using z-bridles - you really don't need to though it might be an advantage. One issue is you need a method to kill the kite - pulling hard on the power line may not the best way to do that. With the NS kite you could just run a 5th line to use Born's depower/kite killer. In mine I tied a line to the two brake lines, and if I needed to kill the kite, I could just grab that line and let go of the bar.

Now that I have a few NS2's I ought to try this - but we are stuck in a pattern where rains all the time and there is no wind. I have a backlog of kites I've built I need to fly......

Here is a picture of a NPW depower bridling setup Ian developed for an NPW 21. This is for a 5.0 meter. I don't see why it wouldn't work (with some tweaking and effort) with a Nasa Star. But it might take some work to get it right.

Quote: Originally posted by alf

thanks for your help randy with my naswing 400 i dont know anymore how i hav done but it works i believe i hav transfered handles front lines to hook and handles brake lines to bar brakes it give some depower but i land the nasa when it s to strong ( 4 Beaufort i never tried to release that would be better i find i can steer the nasawing very well on depower bar , but this wing is old with repaired tangles wo became to short .. i havent tried the born 2 lines and depower system maybe that s even better than a 4 lines depower bar i wanted to buy a 9 sqm peak 3 for street kite use on land paths with the streetstar 6 i am underpowered in lows winds maybe a big nasastar 4 would be cheaper and even more powerful my nasa 400 is old with broken tangles and upwind is to weak , i am triyng to adapt the npw9 7,6 to streetstar ergo bar but i hav put to much tangles at the front , so it dont fly well, i hav to redo if i succed with the npw9 i won t have to buy wing cause it s very powerful in comparaison to standard nasawings, 7,6 is maybe like 10 sqm nasawing or more the new nasastar 4 is temptating with very good price/power ratio

Alf, it sounds as if you are thinking along good lines. I had a couple of StreetStars in their early days but didn't have a personal use for them so didn't keep them. Not a whole lot of power per sq meter if I remember correctly. A 7m NasaStar would have loads more power than a 6m StreetStar and easily as much as the 9m Peak you mentioned (all of which I've owned at the same time so I think I can speak to this).

I used to own a complete quiver of NS3s right up through the 12m size and it was my experience that there were limited practical uses (inland) for the three largest sizes, viz., 8.5, 10.0, and 12m. That is a whole lot of FB sail to control in janky winds that can double in force pretty easily. You'd only use such large kites on light wind days, but inland those light days can really bite you during "gusts" when you can become spectacularly overpowered. Also, I'm not sure how much success you are going to have flying large (>7m) NasaStars on short/no lines. There will be tons of stalling and backwards flying.

Good luck with all this!

Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline

About Born. I think one of the innovations I'd like to see is a website that reflects USD pricing, shipping, and some method of payment that doesn't require much figuring to complete the transaction. Maybe the US market isn't a big deal to Mr Born? Americans like understanding the whole deal to the dollar before we commit to purchase. Born let's us guess what the rate of exchange is, and figure out the Paypal commission and the other commission for exchange, then increase the payment by the incremental method to get the amount to be received, per Borns invoice. Really a pain. In matter of fact you can't just get a wild hair and make a quick decision buy pay and wait. Drunk kite buying is out of the question, there goes 15% of the market right there! I expect to need some NS4 kites, so how much is my investment? How about a quiver? It can't just be me that occasionally loads up a shopping cart on some site or other, and then clicks over to adjust my purchase to what I'm willing to afford after shipping and viewing the bottom line number. This is the improvement and also the post I'd most like to be intercepted by German intelligence. Steve. :bisou:

I get where you are coming from and would concur that the Born website is fairly rudimentary, as is the back and forth for the final mystery price. I have to assume that the sort of commercial web interfaces we more usually encounter in daily web commerce are a costly endeavor, both in creation and upkeep. It may simply be beyond the scope of the current size of their company. Steffen is a German and is married to a wonderful (and IMO strikingly beautiful) person by name of Kerstin. You have probably seen her name on emails working out pricing and shipping. The kites themselves are sewn back in a part of Czechoslovakia where his grandparents are from. So, long and short, it would seem they are a husband and wife small business sort of operation with a modest web presence. Can't speak to their selective interest in the kite markets of different world regions; what I suspect is they are an equal opportunity selling effort and will accept payment and ship to whom ever finds them.

I absolutely LOVE this sort of spirit and try to encourage it with my pocketbook whenever practical. Please appreciate that this is one big reason I appear to others to have drunken Born koolaid. For me they represent a winning combination of innovative products in our tiny little power kiting world coupled with daring entrepreneurial spirit; just right for little old me.

I suspect "German Intelligence" as you put it will see this but I'll relay something to them via email just to be sure. Nobody wants to miss out on drunken impulse buys!

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

I here Ed. I have almost commited to buying my LS2 a couple of time but did not trust myself. I would have commited by now if the site did not confuse me. I think in my case the confusing website is too much for an Old Guy who is usually high. With changes happening fast. New bridles at Born, flysurfer , Gin and now SkyCountry's new entry all have me thinking I may be glad I am procrastinating.

I had never heard of Sky Kites but just looked them up. One of their kites is called Reflex. Here's what they say about it:

"Our newest race kite designed to replace the Relax model. Reflex is a high aspect ratio powerhouse for kite buggying, mountain boarding, snow kiting, and other land-based activites. Flown on handles, the kite control is so responsive to user input that we decided we had to call it Reflex."

Sounds like code for "death by kite". :evil:

I would expect Steffen to come out with an LS3 sometime later in 2019 and it will have the improved BODAPRE bridle lines. Worth the wait K2.

Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline

About Born. I think one of the innovations I'd like to see is a website that reflects USD pricing, shipping, and some method of payment that doesn't require much figuring to complete the transaction. Maybe the US market isn't a big deal to Mr Born? Americans like understanding the whole deal to the dollar before we commit to purchase. Born let's us guess what the rate of exchange is, and figure out the Paypal commission and the other commission for exchange, then increase the payment by the incremental method to get the amount to be received, per Borns invoice. Really a pain. In matter of fact you can't just get a wild hair and make a quick decision buy pay and wait. Drunk kite buying is out of the question, there goes 15% of the market right there! I expect to need some NS4 kites, so how much is my investment? How about a quiver? It can't just be me that occasionally loads up a shopping cart on some site or other, and then clicks over to adjust my purchase to what I'm willing to afford after shipping and viewing the bottom line number. This is the improvement and also the post I'd most like to be intercepted by German intelligence. Steve. :bisou:

It seems that with the introduction of the RS+ that Born-Kite has somewhat revamped their website. It now includes a subsection of shipping to give folks some feel for the cost of transport. Not a leap to the sort of website you're discussing, but a step in the right direction IMO.

Born-Kite website

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

By my math it doesn't seem super complicated. The VAT is 19% which non-EU buyers are not required to pay. The currency conversion now is about 15% and paypal is abour 4% so those items should cancel (though currency conversion can be move around and could be higher*). Add the cost of shipping ($38euro*1.15) = $44US for a package smaller than 10 pounds. That should cover any NPW and probably some of the other kites. So a rough guide would be $44+the price of the kite in Euros. So $164 for a 2.5 M NS4 ($120euro). For an NPW the box it comes in may weigh more than the kite though. I'd be interested in anyone can confirm this. *The conversion rate can be a killer - when I bough my NS2 the rate was 40%.

Randy, I think you have your thinking straight. The one thing I'd add would be that the 46 E for shipping gets you DHL Dtandard. I always do DHL Premium. My "Up to 5 kg" 2.5m NS4 cost 54 E for shipping in this style.

Why Premium? You'll answer your own question once you choose Standard for the first and last time.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

I love checking in once in a great while and seeing born-kite discussions at the top of "Kites, lines, and accessories"

Sean!!!! 'Bout time you showed up. Hope all is well and that smooth onshore-like winds continue to grace your day. :karate:

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre   I love checking in once in a great while and seeing born-kite discussions at the top of "Kites, lines, and accessories" Sean!!!! 'Bout time you showed up. Hope all is well and that smooth onshore-like winds continue to grace your day. :karate:

Ha! that's funny. I have been flying but it's something different and it also benefits my work. I've been flying a drone. It's really worked nicely to see some otherwise hard to access roof areas. Not as fun as kiting, but I will have to make do for now.

I'm just going to leave this here....


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Quote: Originally posted by Randy

C'mon Steve, We want to see an action video starring you and the NS4 at one of your local buggy spots. How about at the Great Salt Lake beach?

I know, I know. Thing is, all my spots are under snow. Probably for the rest of the winter. Snow kiting is out for reasons I've explained.

It's a beauty and I really look forward to flying it.

Quote: Originally posted by Mfwetu

Now I'm just thinking aloud here but - if you replaced the buggy wheels with ski blades is that still classified as snow kiting ???? :dunno:

Absolutely not! Don't think I haven't considered it. The critical distinction is that my buggy has an AQR installed to keep me from getting lofted. Beyond just not having the bandwidth to put something together like that right now, I don't relish the idea of simply sitting in my buggy on a windy winter day. Snowkiting is actually quite a bit of exercise and that keeps you warm and toasty.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

That has been done. So I would say yes.

That's pretty cool stuff, right up to the moment when the bolt broke. Didn't look as if he was hurt but it probably gave him quite the jerk. I've seen variations of that design several times on youtube over the past few years. Clearly there would be zero off-the-shelf here. Sadly, I'm not a machinist nor do I have ready access to the sort of equipment to pull off a DIY winter buggy project. Good thought though!

An idea I just had (I didn't say it was a good idea) would be to experiment with binding three ski blades to your buggy wheels. I've got Sysmic Rims which pass through and one might be able to go through the bindings with webbing and lash the little skis securely to your buggy wheels. The ski tips would probably dive into the snow since the wheels would be free to rotate so that idea probably is a non-starter.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Maybe just use your buggy as is, or perhaps with tires that provide more sideways traction. Hmmm - big foot tires? Or go the opposite way and try bike tires? Or maybe get tire chains?

So many possibilities, so little time. These videos all seem to focus on buggy riding on frozen lakes. I've seen skate blade type solutions too for true hardwater. The deal where I live is deep powder snow, not hardpack. My UT license plate says Greatest Snow on Earth so it must be so! I think the issue would be side hold and flotation in a setting like this. I know from when I used to snowkite in deep powder snow that even with powder boards that were 119mm underfoot that I got a decent amount of side pull. I think that might be problematic in a buggy, but who knows? Stuff to think about...

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

There's always butt scuds, or even just sitting down on a sled, Steve... c'mon!!!! An oldie but a goodie: https://vimeo.com/85508225

You guys are great. Really. The problem with anything but a solution involving a AQR is I can't reasonably assure my wife I won't get lofted (again). The one work around would be to hold a kite bar and Popeye it. I have thought of taking out my new 2.5m NS4 and just put it in my bar with some 20m lines and just go that way. The bar has a chicken loop on it but who says I need to hook in? A NS4 is essentially a 2 line kite anyway.

Hymn.....

First up I need to confess that I'm playing Devil's Advocate for purely selfish reasons - I don't want to wait until spring before we get Steve's review of the NS4

The problem with most QR's is that they're not intuitive to use so you'll never be able to activate them quickly enough to avoid trouble. Normally you're already well on the way to a painful experience long before you've thought of letting go of the bar, reaching for the OS button and trying to remember whether to pull or push. Ideally, when you feel that first twinge of panic you just want to drop everything and have the problem go away. So, here's a solution from the time when 2-line kites were the only option - let go the handles and the kite breaks away. Not AQR but a natural reflex action that's so quick that it's pretty close to being automatic. Also, there's not much chance of getting airborne with a NS4. Just saying . . .. . :evil:

Quote: Originally posted by Mfwetu

First up I need to confess that I'm playing Devil's Advocate for purely selfish reasons - I don't want to wait until spring before we get Steve's review of the NS4 The problem with most QR's is that they're not intuitive to use so you'll never be able to activate them quickly enough to avoid trouble. Normally you're already well on the way to a painful experience long before you've thought of letting go of the bar, reaching for the OS button and trying to remember whether to pull or push. Ideally, when you feel that first twinge of panic you just want to drop everything and have the problem go away. So, here's a solution from the time when 2-line kites were the only option - let go the handles and the kite breaks away. Not AQR but a natural reflex action that's so quick that it's pretty close to being automatic. Also, there's not much chance of getting airborne with a NS4. Just saying . . .. . :evil:

I completely agree that relying on manually popping the chicken loop is just a lousy way to ensure safety, and history proves in my case that this form of protection just won't work if I'm startled by something out of the blue.

The good news / bad news here is that I stopped weight lifting with my upper body last year and now make lap swimming one of my core regular workouts. I say upper body because I still do goblet squats with kettle bells to get my legs ready for telemark ski season. As a result I don't think I could do a chin up to save my life right now. The issue at hand here is ensuring that I don't get lofted high into the air as I am said to have done during my freak gasoline fight accident a few years ago. Even if one of my NasaStars did somehow lift me off the ground I don't think I could hold on for Toad's Wild Ride even if I wanted to.

My quiver of NasaStars at this point range from 1.5m up to 4.0m and I have no intention of buying larger ones again. That quiver is set to shrink in a couple of months as I have already committed to iPaul (Jeepersjoey) to donate my 2.5 and 4.0m NS3s into the IBX 2019 raffle. The wind will need to be pretty strong to get me going on skis in deep loose snow with such small kites but we'll see.

In the meantime I may be able to get the 2.5m NS4 out for some static test flying. I too am curious how it may compare to it's cousin from the NS3 quiver and I hope to fly them back to back for a comparison while I still own the 2.5m NS3. Stay tuned anxious ones!

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

BTW - my recent experience with the flex kites (both big and small) has piqued my interest in using the "Street kite" (short line or no line) set up with my buggy. Here are some videos showing that. (These are more the higher class Born Porn but you may want to skip in a way to just see the action.) I may give it a try at my "asphalt beach" next time around. And who knows - maybe even JIBE or WIldwood......

Cool videos! Ever the Born fan, I delighted in seeing both custom colors and sizes.

I've flown NS3s in all these fashions. Fun to fool around with them like this. It's harder to keep the kites off the ground with shorter or no lines than longer lines in my experience which can be a little rough on a harsh playa but not an issue of course on grass, snow, sand, etc.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

I'm Born Again sort of. Finally rode my buggy and ATB with my recently scored 5.5 and 7.0 NS2 which I got from Spencer (who got them from Old Ben, who got them from Sean.) Anyway - simply not enough wind today - my Paraski Flex takes more wind to fly than these Stars and I'd been meaning to try them anyway so I did rather than drive back home. They flew pretty well between lulls and got me going when probably nothing else would have. I'd never buggied with the 7.0 Star so that was good. As an afterthought I decided to Street Kite my ATB on the "road" at the fairgrounds - so I've come full circle. That's how I got started in all this around 5 years ago. Here is my video - not the kind of high class Born Porn Steve posts, rather the tawdry back alley kind with 2 Born Stars taking a guy for a ride. If you look close you can see the road hazards I have to navigate at this spot due to the recent rains.

That's awesome. beautiful kites. I love seeing that slight bend in the street bar. I did that in 40+ mph gusts with the 2.5 star in the buggy on short lines in a gravel lot. good times.

I thought that bend might have compromised the bar but have no fear, I used it plenty of times since in strong wind and it did not continue to bend. It actually makes one handed use a little easier.

Anyone know about this kind of rig for 5 th line safety/depower?

Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline

Anyone know about this kind of rig for 5 th line safety/depower?

Ed, never seen a setup like this before. I'm not sure what you gain from fixing the two handles together into an "H". When you fly NasaStars from handles with Z-bridles you use all four lines separately if that makes sense (a little touch of brake on the same side as you are pulling towards you to make the kite turn more rapidly, sort of like spinning it on its center as compared to carving a turn with only power line pressure. With the bar locked in an H like this you wouldn't be able to independently apply brake pressure as I just described. I'm not sure how the kite would behave if you simultaneously pulled one side of the bar towards you for a turn AND flexed your wrists to pivot the H along the horizontal bar as you would when applying brake pressure.

If you wanted five line stropped control of a NasaStar why not just use a set of stropped handles from a standard 4-line FB setup and then just string the fifth line from an attachment point on your harness? No, you wouldn't be able to scrunch the nose for some sort of DP as you can when set up as a three line kite but if you let go of the handles (and unhooked the strop from your harness pulley) you'd still be attached to the kite via the 5th line.

Just some thoughts... didn't say they were good thoughts... :karate:

Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline

Anyone know about this kind of rig for 5 th line safety/depower?

So you don't know much about this kind of hybrid?
It's okay kite buddy, I thought I saw a glimpse of this in a eurovideo.
:cool2:

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

I'm Born Again sort of. Finally rode my buggy and ATB with my recently scored 5.5 and 7.0 NS2 which I got from Spencer (who got them from Old Ben, who got them from Sean.) Anyway - simply not enough wind today - my Paraski Flex takes more wind to fly than these Stars and I'd been meaning to try them anyway so I did rather than drive back home. They flew pretty well between lulls and got me going when probably nothing else would have. I'd never buggied with the 7.0 Star so that was good. As an afterthought I decided to Street Kite my ATB on the "road" at the fairgrounds - so I've come full circle. That's how I got started in all this around 5 years ago. Here is my video - not the kind of high class Born Porn Steve posts, rather the tawdry back alley kind with 2 Born Stars taking a guy for a ride. If you look close you can see the road hazards I have to navigate at this spot due to the recent rains.

Thats awesome Randy!... I've ridden that exact route many many times before: https://vimeo.com/166906321

Edit: corrected the wrong link

Thanks Spencer. I think this might the video you meant to post.

https://vimeo.com/166906321

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

I've flown NS3s in all these fashions. Fun to fool around with them like this. It's harder to keep the kites off the ground with shorter or no lines than longer lines in my experience which can be a little rough on a harsh playa but not an issue of course on grass, snow, sand, etc.

The last few days provided some strong (though as erratic as ever) winds and the opportunity to try the NS2 5.5 and 7.0 with no lines. I was surprised how it worked though it has some drawbacks. You are right it is harder to keep them off the ground, but I don't think that means they spend more time on the ground because you can usually recover in just a few seconds (sometimes while continuing to ride) and if there just isn't enough wind to fly relaunching is much easier and quicker than with long lines (which may be tangled and a mess if you have to bail on the kite). Of course, you lose the power stroke of longer lines, but can make up for that with just going bigger. I flew the 5.5 and 7.0 on days when I probably would have been on 3-4m with long lines.

The interesting thing is it was easier to keep my line and not lose ground downwind. It is also a more convenient setup. There is probably more turbulence and less wind closer to ground level but you have a lot more control over the kite because you can move it in and out of the power zone quickly. So it works well enough to keep trying it I think.

Here is some more Bornographic movies.....BTW - If you want to see what a snow day (schools closed) looks like in Atlanta - here it is.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck   I've flown NS3s in all these fashions. Fun to fool around with them like this. It's harder to keep the kites off the ground with shorter or no lines than longer lines in my experience which can be a little rough on a harsh playa but not an issue of course on grass, snow, sand, etc. The last few days provided some strong (though as erratic as ever) winds and the opportunity to try the NS2 5.5 and 7.0 with no lines. I was surprised how it worked though it has some drawbacks. You are right it is harder to keep them off the ground, but I don't think that means they spend more time on the ground because you can usually recover in just a few seconds (sometimes while continuing to ride) and if there just isn't enough wind to fly relaunching is much easier and quicker than with long lines (which may be tangled and a mess if you have to bail on the kite). Of course, you lose the power stroke of longer lines, but can make up for that with just going bigger. I flew the 5.5 and 7.0 on days when I probably would have been on 3-4m with long lines. The interesting thing is it was easier to keep my line and not lose ground downwind. It is also a more convenient setup. There is probably more turbulence and less wind closer to ground level but you have a lot more control over the kite because you can move it in and out of the power zone quickly. So it works well enough to keep trying it I think. Here is some more Bornographic movies.....BTW - If you want to see what a snow day (schools closed) looks like in Atlanta - here it is.

Nice! Well played 99, well played.

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