General Born-Kite discussion.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Thanks Spencer. I think this might the video you meant to post. https://vimeo.com/166906321

HA, yes it was!... not sure how that happened!

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck   I've flown NS3s in all these fashions. Fun to fool around with them like this. It's harder to keep the kites off the ground with shorter or no lines than longer lines in my experience which can be a little rough on a harsh playa but not an issue of course on grass, snow, sand, etc. The last few days provided some strong (though as erratic as ever) winds and the opportunity to try the NS2 5.5 and 7.0 with no lines. I was surprised how it worked though it has some drawbacks. You are right it is harder to keep them off the ground, but I don't think that means they spend more time on the ground because you can usually recover in just a few seconds (sometimes while continuing to ride) and if there just isn't enough wind to fly relaunching is much easier and quicker than with long lines (which may be tangled and a mess if you have to bail on the kite). Of course, you lose the power stroke of longer lines, but can make up for that with just going bigger. I flew the 5.5 and 7.0 on days when I probably would have been on 3-4m with long lines. The interesting thing is it was easier to keep my line and not lose ground downwind. It is also a more convenient setup. There is probably more turbulence and less wind closer to ground level but you have a lot more control over the kite because you can move it in and out of the power zone quickly. So it works well enough to keep trying it I think. Here is some more Bornographic movies.....BTW - If you want to see what a snow day (schools closed) looks like in Atlanta - here it is.

Nice! Have you tried 5m lines yet?

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

I have (or something close) but it has been a long time, and before I started riding a buggy. See picture below. I've had this theory that I could really get by with just one of these kites for all wind ranges. For the highest winds just fly off the bar, and as wind drops add more length. I'm not sure if it would be the 5.5 or 7.0 but somewhere in that range. I already tried them both a few weeks ago in "too light" wind on 25m lines. But then - who wants only one kite anyway.....

rolling resistance has a lot to do it too. I could get by on a whisper with the 5.5 on asphalt where I wouldn't have budged on grass.

On the same token, a 5.5 or 7 would be a lot to hang on to in strong wind, even on no lines.

However, you already know all of this :D. Your better versed than I on all things nasa.

An epic day yesterday - best I've ever had at a place not call Jekyll. I even mastered a new trick - Kite Laydown 360 Jibe. (Believe it or not - I've done several times - good way to recover.)

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

An epic day yesterday - best I've ever had at a place not call Jekyll. I even mastered a new trick - Kite Laydown 360 Jibe. (Believe it or not - I've done several times - good way to recover.)

Outstanding! Very smoothly done. Most impressed. I have to say that throughout my stint as a (distinctly amateur) power kite pilot that I've always really liked the look of the vertical stripes of the NS2s. I've never owned one but just love how they look. I know just what it is that I like about them too; they remind me of a beloved cartoon character from my yute, viz., Obelix, from the great French series Asterix and Obelix.


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Quote: Originally posted by Cerebite

Steve, somehow i doubt that Steffen will be using the fact that his kites resemble a fat Frenchman in his marketing :D. As to your statement about amateur status, a) I have seen you fly, that is not true and b) if it is true Paul and I will turn you Pro when we drag you around the Playa at IBX.

You two have always been pros in my book. I just hang on and bask in your greatness like the groupie I am. Now, if I only had a kite squire, my kite world would be complete!

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Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Let's keep this Borno movie party going. Yesterday rode buggy and ATB at my Thrift Store version of the beach at Jekyll. Have not ridden ATB much this season but decided it might good to get a little practice in. Sometimes at Jekyll I think ATB is a little easier if winds are pretty much up and down the beach. And it's fun anyway.

music?

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Looking forward to seeing what he comes up with. I'm thinking maybe a street star type kite, but with closed cell leading edge, like the new Gin kite. I thought about trying that myself with one my g-kites after I saw the Monjet. Then again, it would be great if he could come up with something really new that doesn't need pumps and is not closed cell.

This is interesting indeed. I'm not in the market for water kites, but this does make sense with Steffen's continual focus on SS tech. The Gin Marabou we've been looking at this week has a pretty "chubby" AR and looks to be a slow turner from the limited video seen to date. I know virtually nothing about pilot needs in the water, but a 6:1 AR RaceStar+ with leading edge flotation could be an interesting kite. The "+" part are some flexible rods that repeat at the major seams perpendicular to the leading edge. In flying his new 3.0m RS+ at IBX a couple of weeks ago I was truly impressed with the added stability afforded by these stiffeners compared to my RSs that don't have them (read I wish all my RSs were RS+s).

The RS+ stiffeners are as long as about half of the kite's width so you can still fold them lengthwise before rolling them up from their tips to the center. I suspect you could put a second set of these stiffeners in the top half of the kite as well and then use some "valves" to allow the leading edge to inflate passively but then stay filled until you purposely release the trapped air. Such a double vertical stiffener (RS++ if you will) kite with an inflated leading edge I suspect would sit on the water like a somewhat floppy LEI and I bet could be tuned to be a pretty high performer. What a cool kite that would be! :karate:

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Floatable spars could be a way to go but you need a light material. I'm working on a different concept. Put a spar into the leading edge. I did this with my original g-kite prototype (which did not have a wrap around LE) and greatly improved performance in a kite that didn't fly very well. Next idea is to put tear drop shaped nacelles made of something that floats on the LE. (They use these on masts for some boats for example.) Anyway - these help the LE float and maybe it can be relaunched. Might work better with my round flex design though. Original kite.

Your kite had some beautiful shape and structure in the air! Nicely done. The video's sound track had me on the edge of my seat! Would the leading edge spar be able to live to fly another day if you pile drove it into that parking lot? That would be my fear with such a design. Maybe choose a spar material akin to a somewhat stiff but still flexible piece of tubing? If it wasn't too heavy the kite should still fly and it might be able to withstand a ground strike.

I got my emergency "anything but a walk of shame" kit worked out and refined yesterday. It consists of a 2.5m NS4 (yes, 4) attached to handles and four, 10m lines via z-bridles. The NS4s do some nice grouping of bridles, bringing together groups of four attachment points with only one single long bridle to the common L or R pigtails as compared to grouping two attachment points per long bridle. This results in only needing to z-in a single bridle per side (the middle bottom bunching on each side). This seemed a little strange when stringing the z-bridles but the kite flew great with this setup.

Now this kit will go in my buggy bag so come hell or high water I should be able to limp back to buggy camp with some semblance of dignity.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

I think you would lose the ability for reverse launch because you get that by pulling the brakes in. With the kite being upside down it is just like pulling the power when it is right side up. This setup seems to have the two brake lines connected to the 3rd line (the depower line) which scrunches down the nose of the kite but it isn't connected to the brake lines. (If that's not the case - then reverse launch should still work, but it seems like that would be pretty hard to do.) One thing I always liked about the Born system is that you can bring the kite down without out completely killing it, making relaunch easier (in fact some times you don't even have to bring it all the way to the ground). I'll have to try that with my NS2's. Looks simple enough - just add a pulley to the end of the 3rd line and a piece of line to connect it to the brake line leaders on the handle. This method would give guys who only like to fly with handles a way to use the NS kites w/o going to a bar. They may not like losing the ability to do brake turns though, which give another dimension of control. (He doesn't show brake turns but rather turning is done by pulling on one of the handles.) Lately I haven't been flying handles that much - find it more tiring compared to a bar when riding on grass at least. Sometimes I still use handles though.

To me this seems a tad like a solution to a non-existent problem. When flying my NS4 with z-bridles from handles I find myself doing 95% of my turns with subtle brake action with no appreciable input to the power lines. This to me creates a satisfying minimalist turn. The 3rd central NS line is a nice solution for an emergency tether when flying by bar and needing to pop the chicken loop for whatever reason, but in my experience I've found actuation of the 3rd line to not work well for scrubbing power, at least not on long open runs like on the Ivanpah playa. When I have pulled in the 3rd line out there when cruising along all I really manage to do is drop the kite way back in the wind window, but that can be problematic in its own right and I've had some pretty serious power surges upon reinflation and having the kite race back to the front of the window again.

I may at some point play with a setup like this with one of my spare center lines, but honestly I'm pretty satisfied with my z-bridled handles at this point and plan to stick with those.

Thanks Randy,





The square thing on the 5-th line is a locking device which I can slide in and out with my free hand to control depower. It stays put if left alone. For the 5-th line I use very thin fishing Spectra with about 1m leader (3 mm blue cord) to make it work with a locking device and a pulley.

USA pricing on a quiver of NS 4 Born Stars

Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline

USA pricing on a quiver of NS 4 Born Stars

Well played sir, well played. I know you like kites in quivers (who can blame you?). I did inquire right around the new year about possible larger NS4s. Here was Steffen's response:

"Currently we have the 8.5m and 10.0m NS4 in the trial. The Quattro-Point cascade has to be dimensioned slightly different for the big NS4. It is not possible for some areas in the kite to scale, because the formation of the air flow changes a bit."

So... it would seem safe to say that there may be some larger ones in the works too. Frankly, those big FB kites scare me. I have buggied in light, janky winds in the mountains of Utah with 8.5, 10.5, and even the Big Bertha Butts 12.5m NS3s. I would think these would be outstanding in smooth, predictable onshore coastal winds. In the UT mountains a 3-4 knot base wind has plenty of 10 knot pulses worked into the mix. Having BBB up when that happens makes things a little "busy" especially around soccer goals, etc.

Steve,


Did you try the BBB kites on short or long lines? I never liked my NS 5.5 and 7.0's much for kite buggy until I started using them on no or very short lines. With long lines there were two gears - too little wind to fly or overpowered....With short lines the level of control is so much greater because you go from the power zone to the top of the window in seconds. With long lines trying to depower by moving to the top of the window takes a lot more time and you might gain power in doing it. Another advantage - if I have to dump the kite or drops to the ground in a lull - relaunch is a lot easier than walking 80 feet to straighten it out. Also - I have a lot smaller "footprint" on the parking lots I am rolling around it. I think that probably seems a little less threatening to "civilians" who might be passing through my launch area.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Steve, Did you try the BBB kites on short or long lines? I never liked my NS 5.5 and 7.0's much for kite buggy until I started using them on no or very short lines. With long lines there were two gears - too little wind to fly or overpowered....With short lines the level of control is so much greater because you go from the power zone to the top of the window in seconds. With long lines trying to depower by moving to the top of the window takes a lot more time and you might gain power in doing it. Another advantage - if I have to dump the kite or drops to the ground in a lull - relaunch is a lot easier than walking 80 feet to straighten it out. Also - I have a lot smaller "footprint" on the parking lots I am rolling around it. I think that probably seems a little less threatening to "civilians" who might be passing through my launch area.

Randy, you are absolutely right about these big girls being more controllable and thus safer with short lines. I have tried the 10m NS3 on short, 7m lines in a soccer field in a buggy as video below shows. On this particular day I would have been better served with the 8.5m but I was able to Popeye it nonetheless.

First The NS3 x 12.5 is named Nora, after my one true love Nora Batty. :o

Here's a 7m Nasa on 30m lines and bar, Sunday in a small field.
Wind was at 10 to 12 mph with extra janky.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Yet another interesting idea. Looks pretty simple. I'm not quite sure why the line wouldn't just unwind in the "scroll depower" he shows. While we are at it, it seems there is a StreetStar2 with a new pulley/harness depower system. http://www.born-kite.de/product_info.php?info=p310_trapez-pu...

I wondered too why it wouldn't simply unwind. Maybe it is purposely a little sticky...

I had seen that he had recently upgraded the StreetStar with the BODAPAR lines and some further refinements. I don't have personal use for these street kites so I had done the unusual thing (for me) of not posting about it. I fly his kites exclusively and like them but it's not as if I'm sponsored or anything like that.

Now that I've converted to DP I actually get a little spooked flying FB in the buggy. No real power throttle like you get with DP. I suppose his perma-DP setting with this new bungee-bar might ease that a bit, but it has been my experience on the wide open playa of Ivanpah that I don't care for how NasaStars behave with their noses scrunched. Yes, they generate less power so in that way they are "depowered", but I've also found that such a deformation makes them fall way back in the wind window and create even more side pull than they already do which is considerable as-is IMHO. The RaceStars and RS+ kites sit distinctly farther forward in the window than the NasaStars so the pull is more comfortable in the buggy when you are going for long, long laps on the playa. I doubt this would be an issue in comparatively smaller areas like soccer fields, etc., but when your tack line goes on for miles and miles any little things that bug you or make you uncomfortable sort of magnify and where the kite sits in the window is one of those things.

Yes, I know, a true 1st World problem!

Bottom line, I love that Steffan continues to innovate and I'm here to support him for that. Sits with me like buying at a local coffee shop versus Starbucks.

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

I'm thinking now the scrolling method probably works because the 3rd line doesn't normally have that much tension on it. The 2 main lines are carrying the load. I'm wondering also if his NS bridling may have evolved enough so that the problems you mention are now mitigated. Might be worth trying with your new NS4 even if just while flying static. For my NS2's I've never seen much value in the depower function (though I have never tried bridle mods based on PrussiS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s posts.) Maybe in NS4 it is now better. The Street Star innovation seems like it might work pretty well.

Good points. I will say that when I was bugging with NS3s "back in the day" that I used the 3rd line as a safety from time to time that worked well. Now I really only use my NS4 with 4 lines, handles, and split z-bridles. My "third" line is coiled up and secured to the nose with its little yellow retention loop.

One way to turn a large Nasa. Nora is only 12.? so she's the the low end for the bar.
You have to try to learn.

So I had a chance to test the Dutch Flying Object 7m against the Nasa Star 4 7m.
Not very often do I get wind steady enough for a length of time to get two kites up under the same conditions. This day it was 8 mph from the NW. Straight down the field for a perpendicular run across the field. No hill.

Here is an comparison without controlled conditions, no control subject, and pilot with questionable credential.

The Nasa Star is faster in the air. The profile of the Born kite is flatter than the DFO.
I think it's flatter in general tha the NS3. This is more apparent on the larger sizes, of course it would be. The DFO is very adjustable, the Born kite needed no adjustment. For me this is great, some might prefer to tweak according to need. I just need it to fly well without adjustment.

This has to be a first look comment, cause I just don't have the skill to objectively look at all the right parameters. The Born 7m is the latest model, the DFO hasn't evolved to I guess it's the current model also.

The Born kite does not fly well over water, It took way more than a month to get here from DE.
Now that I have it though it flys faster across the field which is more important to this comment.

I flew the DFO first and it was kicking. I think it knew it was about to be judged, and was on its best behavior. I had it adjusted to fly as forward as possible with little regard for the pull. I returned the adjustments to center, and flew it for about 2 miles. No complaints.
I meant to do a mile for each kite, but you know......I was having fun so it went 2 miles

Next the Born. I needed to adjust the new kite to my bar...Wait a minute, no I didn't.
I used the bar set up for the NS3 5.5m and it was spot on.
Isn't consistency wonderful. The DFO kite requires more throw in the bar and has its own bar, so I used the shorter bar for the NS4 test. I was happy to find that the shorter bar was every bit as responsive as the longer bar I used on the DFO.

I like the idea of a shorter bar doing the same work as one 5cm longer.
So how did it turn out? Here it is 2miles for the DFO, 1 mile for the NS4.
Then it rained on me and I quit for the day.

Funny Steve, when you called the NS4 simple workhorse I got triggered a little.
Think I have a little patriotism left over from the 4th of July Speech. All fired up.

Born did a great job with this thing though. I have used his NS3 and it performs better for me than the way they talk about it on the forum as being simple and kind of a compromise.

Being an interested amateur at control line power kites doesn't qualify me to argue with the prevailing wisdom. Having only an inland field at my disposal that thinks it's a mix master blender makes it impossible to stretch any kites legs properly. But the field is what it is and my kites need to respond to what .i have.wind wise. No racing kite for ed.

If the other sizes fly as well as the 7m I'll be thrilled. The real contest is between Steve's old 5.5 NS3 and the new one. That 5.5 3 model is one of the special ones.

I feel good enough about the new model to commit to 3 new bars and offer Born my intention to purchase the larger sizes as they become available.

Goals have to match conditions if you can't change the conditions, so my goal is to be able to out buggy anyone on this kind of field no matter what kite they are using. I believe The NS4 is my weapon of choice.

Edit. I just read what I wrote. Full compliment, no reservations, no buts or ifs. I strongly approve of this kite.
On the one hand my next order might ship faster, on the other hand I may have increased pricing on the large kites when they appear.

Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline

Funny Steve, when you called the NS4 simple workhorse I got triggered a little. Think I have a little patriotism left over from the 4th of July Speech. All fired up.

"Simple workhorse" - in my book a high compliment. All of the function, none of the frills.

Hate speech! We want reparations! :moon:

Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline

Hate speech! We want reparations! :moon:

Glad to see that little postage stamp in good hands. Nice addition with the strap. Fly on!

Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline

You know all the big brothers had a strap, and the little one wants to be all grown up. It hasn't flown yet in NC. I did shorten the leaders some. We could have saved on shipping if it was cleaned. I think we were almost at the point where I could have claimed "land ownership" in Utah. Thanks for combining the bridles. I will love it and feed it, and care for it, and pet, it and call it Hurricane. Members who aren't me or Windstruck, Mr Steve consented to transfer his little 1.5m NS3. One of these days I'll figure how to bless him back. :D

What your got Ed at no extra charge with "Hurricane" was genuine Ivanpah Playa dust. Accept no imitations! Every year people travel from as far away as Israel to coat their kites with this precious, dare we say, magic element. I simply didn't have the heart to rinse it off, especially after hearing you sniffle and wimper about not being able to get to any of the Eastern or Western organized power kiting events. I thought I'd bring a little of the IBX love to you! Your welcome. :saint:

Thanks for the sample. How could you know I collect dirt?
Most of my terrestrial samples are shatter cones but I do have dirt.
These i are the oldest samples. One from Spain and the other is german.
Iridium KT or Kpg if you're young.

Thing is I'm going to need a bigger sample so next time send a bigger kite :D

just in from Born Kite


temp file hosting

the link with more Kerstin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdDNYTYA34w

This just in: 8.5m NS4 now available for shipment from Born. I'm not in the market for this large a fixed bridle but I do own the 2.5, 4.0, 5.5, and 7.0m NS4s and can confidently attest that they are a nice evolutionary step beyond the earlier models.

https://www.facebook.com/210093376111888/posts/9140130957199...


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Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Does look like a really good setup and probably easier to use than the one with the bungee cords. Have you found that the NS-4 Stars are more de-powerable than the earlier versions? I've got 5.5 NS2's and have gotten into using the DP with it lately. I don't seem to get that much DP, but it is useful in taking the edge off enough to avoid just killing the kite.

It has been years since I've flown my NS kites (of either 3rd or 4th gen variety) using three lines and a bar as I've had them set up with z-bridles for four-line handled flying, most of which have been static.

Memory serves that when using them in the buggy that scrunching the nose sort of depowers the kite, but it does so by making them crappier flyers and certainly not by affecting AOA in any way as you typically think about with a pulley-rigged DP kite.

Buggy riding on a long run on the Ivanpah playa I remember that scrunching the nose decreased the kite's pull at the price of dropping it further and further back in the wind window. Too much scrunch and the kite flew so poorly that it dropped too far back. There is probably some sort of equilibrium point you could reach, but I'll have to test all that. Hope to do just so at IBX2021!

New innovation from Born. Replaces all of the "ribs" in Long Star with spars that fold for transport. I think this is pretty brilliant in its' simplicity. One thing I've learned from my own experiments with my round flex kites - a simple spar (in my case the leading edge) can greatly improve performance at very low cost and can also avoid a lot of bridles and sewing.

From the Born facebook page:

"Why does the LongStar4 have such a high flying speed?
One reason for this : .... Even the LS4 has moved in its "fraction".
The new sector kiel (patent pending) smooths out the single skin surfaces at the fixings of the scales. Through the combination of relatively stiff (carbon) and foldable (polypropylene) sectors, a very high form stability is achieved with very low air resistance, without sacrificing a minimal packing measure for transport. The crash-safe processing of the sector cones promises the usual durability of BORN Kites."

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

New innovation from Born. Replaces all of the "ribs" in Long Star with spars that fold for transport. I think this is pretty brilliant in its' simplicity. One thing I've learned from my own experiments with my round flex kites - a simple spar (in my case the leading edge) can greatly improve performance at very low cost and can also avoid a lot of bridles and sewing. From the Born facebook page: "Why does the LongStar4 have such a high flying speed? One reason for this : .... Even the LS4 has moved in its "fraction". The new sector kiel (patent pending) smooths out the single skin surfaces at the fixings of the scales. Through the combination of relatively stiff (carbon) and foldable (polypropylene) sectors, a very high form stability is achieved with very low air resistance, without sacrificing a minimal packing measure for transport. The crash-safe processing of the sector cones promises the usual durability of BORN Kites."

Steffen Born has been a consistent innovator over the years. He introduced semi-flexible vertical spines to his RaceStar+ kites (the RaceStar kites did not have the spines). The spines went about 3/4 of the way from the leading edge towards the trailing edge in a regularly repeating fashion along the "ribs" of the kites. I owned and flew both the RS and RS+ kites on the Ivanpah Playa for many miles each and vastly preferred the RS+ over RS kites. When fully inflated and cruising it probably made little difference, but these ribs really helped in punch winds and for providing some structure to the long 6:1 AR ribbons when taking off, landing, or in light or irregular winds when the kites might collapse, bow tie, etc.

The LongStar4 combination of hinged stiff and semi-flexible sections seem a nice evolution and I suspect a RS2 is in the works with theses refinements. He no longer lists the RS on his site, just the RS+. Pure speculation on my part.

The lack of extensive "undercarriage" is doubtless because the added structure afforded from all these ribs and spines makes them superfluous. Again, nice evolution!

I don't end up kiting all that frequently these days so I'm unsure if I'll want to upgrade my RS+ quiver with any of these anticipated RS2s. Maybe the 3.0m because I trashed my original one.

I miss daily nasa star discussion

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Just for you Sean! This is from just a few weeks ago. It's not Jekyll, but it's the closest I've got to riding on the beach, even if the GPS says its under the water. Sean tt's never too late to chase the dragon again!! https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/888544905

Beautiful! Is that one of my old stars? I still have a few kites. I shouldn't have sold my buggy. Maybe I'll dust off the longboards.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Quote: Originally posted by Randy   Just for you Sean! This is from just a few weeks ago. It's not Jekyll, but it's the closest I've got to riding on the beach, even if the GPS says its under the water. Sean tt's never too late to chase the dragon again!! https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/888544905 Beautiful! Is that one of my old stars? I still have a few kites. I shouldn't have sold my buggy. Maybe I'll dust off the longboards.

Sorry I miessed your reply Sean. Yes that was one your Stars. I know have the 2.5, 4.0, 5.5 and 7.0 Stars. Like they stars "all your stars are belong to me." :D

The 4.0 has been my goto kites for buggy riding this season.