Power Kite Forum

Bar length for PL Arcs

BeamerBob - 7-7-2009 at 06:54 AM

I have 2 bar/line sets with my Arcs and have looked into using only 1 bar for both kites. I have a 22" (56 cm) North bar that came with my Phantom, and a 20" PL bar that came with the Synergy. Are all the PL arcs supplied with that same 20" (51cm) bar? When flying Pokitetrash's Phantom on my PL bar yesterday I found myself with the bar at "full lock" and wanting some more steering input but the winds were light. To those that know, am I better off using the longer bar on the Phantom and the shorter bar on the Synergy? I would like to use only 1 bar so I'm on automatic with the safety and trim functions regardless of which kite I'm using.

If I only use 1 bar, I also am interested in opinions about trim straps vs clamcleats since I have 1 of each, I could rob one to improve the other.

acampbell - 7-7-2009 at 06:58 AM

Current PL ARC's ship with...

6-8m : 40 cm
10-12m" 50 cm
15m and larger: 60 cm

PHREERIDER - 7-7-2009 at 07:12 AM

the bar that came with the syn may be the ticket. keeps the turn rate fairly close and 20' middle of the road size.. and a big bar in the buggy may get crowded.

personal prefs and feel will guide you, i think hand size, arm length and shoulder width have to be looked at or injury/fatigue become problems.

BeamerBob - 7-7-2009 at 07:19 AM

I wonder if others have had issue with that 60cm bar in the buggy. I don't remember it being a problem to pivot the 22" bar where it didn't hit me anywhere in a turn. I'll need to put more time in with different combinations to develop my personal preferences I guess.

snobdr - 7-7-2009 at 08:45 AM

Ive only had little time in a buggy, but being in the sitting position kinda crowded the bar in there. You could try a longer chicken line to get the bar out a bit more to open it up. Just a thought.

doneski - 7-7-2009 at 09:11 AM

tungsten222 in the yahoo arcusers group made a bar with a slot. It gives you faster turning speed and you can use one bar for all kite sizes. I'm trying to make one without the pully.

Here's what he wrote:The faster turning is due to the bar geometry. On a normal bar, when turning to the right, the left wingtip is depowered by the same margin that the right wingtip is powered up. Thus, ARC steering technique is sheeting fully in (long throw!), yanking on the bar, and heeting out again. With the pulley bar, it's the bar geometry doing this automatically for you. The left wingtip simply does not depower that much when steering to the right.

Here's the links: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/33214
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/photos/album/15025699...

kite bar with slot.JPG - 16kB

Drewculous - 7-7-2009 at 09:40 AM

i got a 60cm with my phantom and it doesnt seem to bulky... mind you im not in a buggy, but it seems very manageable... sitting at the computer i cant see an issue with it... but a buggy is different from a board ;)

PHREERIDER - 7-7-2009 at 05:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by doneski
tungsten222 in the yahoo arcusers group made a bar with a slot. It gives you faster turning speed and you can use one bar for all kite sizes. I'm trying to make one without the pully.

Here's what he wrote:The faster turning is due to the bar geometry. On a normal bar, when turning to the right, the left wingtip is depowered by the same margin that the right wingtip is powered up. Thus, ARC steering technique is sheeting fully in (long throw!), yanking on the bar, and heeting out again. With the pulley bar, it's the bar geometry doing this automatically for you. The left wingtip simply does not depower that much when steering to the right.

Here's the links: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/33214
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/photos/album/15025699...






hmmmm, may require more strength to work this bar effectively, loosing the pivot point fulcrum. while holding down power, even if sheeted all the way out, could prove fatiguing. the pivot point would be lost and your hand/arm tension now has to replace it. and on a phantom, if the bar was made too long, may produce excessive rear line slack and may induce collaspe. a combination of altering trailing edge pressure and "brake" deflection across the kite may exceed the operating range. in the lower AR may prove quite favorable though. one handed stuff would be brutal on the fingers.

very interesring, i repair my centers with plastics that have rate wear like the main line and last 100's of hours. I have used Alum. smoothed and flowed, and does well but heavy sand really cuts it. land use (sand ) eats the main and abraids the casing. amsteel is tuff but warning on breakage is poor. I like a line with a casing/core. its gonna break ..all of it, casing fails and you have about a 10 hour warning built in riding the core, if you are out. an amsteel main broke once in a frayed area with out much warning , yes it was frayed but it had looked that way for several months. plastic tubing on the main works as well esp. with amsteel.

hope some of this helps.. did i stay on topic?

BeamerBob - 7-7-2009 at 07:06 PM

You can download your knowledge any time you want Phree. I've had a great time on my Phanny with that 22" bar so that isn't too much for it. I'll fly it with the 20 next time and see how that goes with some good wind in the sail. Phree, what length bars do you run on your 13 and 16 venoms? Well, you have a 15 Phanny yourself so what length bar do you run on it? You are our own little research center.

Please tell us more about plastic tubing on the main line. Did it not make the bar throw kinda sticky? Was there room for it between the mainline and the hole in the bar? I've wondered about a polypropylene rope as a sheath on the mainline. Cheap wear protection for the amsteel since it would only be a core inside the poly and it would be slick through the bar.

ripsessionkites - 8-7-2009 at 12:05 AM

i actually like the 60cm bar lenght for all sizes big or small.

i do have a 50cm bar but never use it.

PHREERIDER - 8-7-2009 at 05:06 AM

i have a 60cm PL that i use on everything. and a 50cm i specifically like on the v13

i have ultra small 40cm i haven;t been able to use regularly just don't like it

acampbell - 8-7-2009 at 05:12 AM

Come to think of it, I have been riding in the bug with a 60 cm on the 15 m Synergy, and even more time with the 11m Neo on a 60 cm bar and have not felt crowded

PHREERIDER - 8-7-2009 at 05:50 AM

the plastic tubing, the semi rigid PE worked best, with an old takoon bar, because the bar had a SS insert in the center. with the metal insert the plastic would would wear but i put this same on my 60cm bar and it eventually cut the bar. addda Alum. insert and it cut that too. the line was smaller sail rigging line but never broke.

any way the best solution was a plastic insert epoxied in the bar with ample sized main line even with constant sand on it all wears much slower. and as mentioned before i like heavy casing with a core. i usually run the main til the casing breaks finish my session on the core then fix it before i use that set again. i don't ever start with just the core the casing tends to bunch up and imped bar movement.

i use west marine stuff. our store dose not carry amsteel

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte...

5/16 is what i use, very wear resistant

the plastic tube thing works but a hassle to replace, with self stuff

BeamerBob - 8-7-2009 at 05:57 AM

That puts it all in perspective. When I end up with my 19m Synergy/Charger I'll get the 60 cm bar with it. I'll use the 60 on the 19 and the 15m. I'll continue to use the 50 on the 12m Synergy. I checked and the Montana IV came with a 60cm bar. I have ridden many miles with it in the bug and didn't notice the length of the bar. Thanks guys.

acampbell - 13-7-2009 at 08:57 AM

I thought of this thread again yesterday while flying my Phantom with the 60 cm bar in the bug. I found that if I did not pay attention, I could indeed get jammed up with the bar getting on the wrong side of my leg, especially on down-winders with the bar way out in front a lot.

I fixed the problem by paying attention.

BeamerBob - 13-7-2009 at 09:13 AM

My 55cm bar is only an inch shorter on each side, so that probably doesn't give much cushion for not paying attention. It seems I've noticed the same issue with my 55 flying the Phantom. If I convert to using 2 bars that are both Peter Lynn, that will have the 60 for 15m and up and I'll use the short bar for the 12 Syn. I wonder if my large future arc has some new feature (if it ends up being a Charger) that will still keep me from having familiarity between bars. I might end up using a different bar on all 3 kites and just dealing with the slightly different safeties and depower straps.