Power Kite Forum

Picking My Second Kite - Need Advice!

ThePixelGuru - 28-7-2009 at 08:16 PM

So I've been flying my Prism Stylus P.3 a fair amount recently, and picked it up a lot faster than I thought I would. I'm really wanting to move up to something with a little more power and a deeper low end so I can fly in the 5mph winds that are so common around my area. The question is, which kite should I move up to? I've narrowed it down to two possibilities (barring some strong advice to the contrary).

Option one would be sewing an NPW. Seems like it would be fun, though it could end up being a fair amount of work. I'm pretty handy with building stuff, though, and I know my share of hand sewing and have access to a sewing machine, complete with skilled seamstress (and there's a local store that sells 60" wide ripstop at $6.99 a yard). A couple questions, though. What can I do with it? Static flying, obviously, but are they lifty? I know I could probably scud pretty well with it, but is it the sort of thing I could get into jumping with? And I've seen people use them for buggying, but not landboarding - are they any good for that? Also, if I was to go this route, how big should I make it? And is there anything special about putting designs on it or is it just simple appliqué?

Option two is a Peter Lynn Twister. It's good for jumping, landboarding and buggying, so it does pretty much everything I'm interested in while not being as terrifying as a Blade. I was thinking about a Twister II 5.4 - $370 for a new kite complete with everything I need is a pretty good deal, and that kite seems like a good size and good flier, and those sharp graphics don't hurt. Better price than a Blade, too, since the Blade is only a little cheaper and doesn't come with lines/handles/etc.

I also stumbled across a good deal on a not-quite-used Twister 7.7, so I have two questions about that: a) would I miss out on anything by going with the original over the II, and b) would a kite that size kick my butt hard or could I take it easy in some really gentle winds to begin with?

I know it's a lot of questions - any help appreciated (and definitely correct me if I'm wrong about any of my assumptions). Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer, especially concerning that Twister 7.7 - I probably need to move on it quickly before someone else does.

furbowski - 28-7-2009 at 08:42 PM

just my opinion here, you'll get a few more I reckon...

I've not flown npw's, but what i understand is that they are great for traction, lousy for lift, and don't really do float or hangtime. So don't try to jump on them, but go on and build one (or two...) NPW goddess? where are you? she's the one to talk to about npw.

and i reckon you should get a decent smaller 4-line and get your head wrapped around that before you jump to the 7.7. If you do get the 7.7, you won't kill yourself but you'll have to be very careful and aware of risk for quite a while.

And everybody who goes that large for a first foil ends up getting something smaller in a hurry, or checking into the hospital, or selling out because it's not fun anymore.

If it's a deal, tho, and you have a bit of cash, you might want to go for it. Do you know your way around kitekillers? don't fly that beast without them until you have gotten comfortable with it in a range of winds.

just be aware you're going to want to get a smaller kite anyways...

In the meantime, you need to get going on two skills which will help you jump: flying blind (without looking at the kite) and getting better at flying your kite out of collapses. flying blind -- practice few a few minutes every session. flying out of collapses is different with a four-line, another reason to get that 3m foil! But harder to practice, so just get the hours in under whatever kite you have, all the skill helps when you start picking your feet up off the ground!

hope that helps.

have fun flying!

BigMikesKites - 28-7-2009 at 09:03 PM

I am in agreement with furbowski. I purchased a Peter Lynn Twister 4.1 and it was alot of kite to handle in the 15mph and up winds I had around Texas in Jan-May. I almost always flew a 2m instead. So I sold the Twister and once summer hit, the winds seemed to go away and the thoughts of the twister came back.

I'm not brave enough for a 7.7 twister, but I'm inland and the winds gust at times and I still remember my 260# frame being dragged very quickly by a 4.1 and a 25 mph gust.

My preference is to keep something small (2-3m) for strong wind days and something a bit bigger (4-6m) for light wind days. I imagine even bigger for some of you folks where the wind never blows.

DAKITEZ - 28-7-2009 at 10:15 PM

go with your option 2.

Npw no good for jumping

7.7m fixed bridle has very, very small useable wind range. Plus it leaves a huge gap in your quiver from the kite you currently have.

The p3 you have now may be almost 3m but in reality it pulls about as hard as a 1.4m beamer. I'm not trying to talk bad about it, but I want to make sure you understand what you are getting into. I would say a 3m twister II will pull about twice as hard as your p3. So that should give you some idea of what the 7.7m will be like.

furbowski - 28-7-2009 at 11:08 PM

yep, dakitez hit it: 2-3m beamer will be the step up you're looking for. I haven't flown the p3, but I learned my winds and 2-line basics on an itsy bitsy snapshot 1.4 (less than 1 m in area). That kite taught me lots, and by now it also looks like it!

2m beamer = double the power + the 4-lines on handles learning curve... That should keep the kite grin on your face for a while.

there are also stings going cheap, but they are twitchy, the beamers have more traction utility in the long run.

don't discount making the npw, just be sure you know what it can do and what you'll use it for, there are lots of folk having fun with those things.

BigMikesKites - 29-7-2009 at 05:34 PM

Just to give you an example. I demo'd a 2m Beamer to some AMISH in Ohio while on vacation a few weeks ago and they bought it. The whole family was flying in their horse pasture the last time I saw them and the 15 and 18 yr old girls were barefoot (through all the horse manure....ick).

I had the 4m Beamer that I have listed for sale here at that time and the father was asking about it. Hwas handling it pretty well, but I told him I was concerned for his daughters and 13 yr son (not to mention a 7 yr old). The 2m was pulling them around just fine the day we were out.

The Beamer is a great first 4 line kite. It doesn't have any bad tendancies and its something you can share with your friends without worrying too much about them getting hurt.

bobalooie57 - 29-7-2009 at 07:01 PM

That is great about the Amish family. Our County Fair (Lewis County, I believe more cows than people) was just last week, and I had gone to the fairgrounds to get in a final flight the day before it started, while people were setting up. After doing a fairly fast reach across the soccer field, using my NPW for my engine, I looked up from the buggy to see an Amish man watching me with hat pushed back and hands on hips, and a grin on his face to match mine! He never came over to speak with me, but the look on his face was almost pure joy, and since I often fly during Farmer's Market, I'm sure I'll see him again. Ya can't beat the Beamer for a first kite, plenty of pull and stable too.b

BigMikesKites - 29-7-2009 at 07:57 PM

The Amish are great people. They won't come up and talk to you, but if you make an effort to talk to them, they will listen. It doesn't take much coaxing to get them to take over the reigns.

kitejumper - 29-7-2009 at 08:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Akulakat
The Amish are great people. They won't come up and talk to you, but if you make an effort to talk to them, they will listen. It doesn't take much coaxing to get them to take over the reigns.


and they're good bowlers,too:rolleyes:

action jackson - 29-7-2009 at 08:27 PM

The amish are born buggiers!............aj

ThePixelGuru - 30-7-2009 at 01:13 AM

OK, so NPW is traction and not lift. Good to know. I'll probably still sew one at some point; dragging myself across a field with something I sewed is pretty cool, and I've already got a pretty sweet design in mind. I've found some pages with pretty good instructions, though the bridle length calculators I found won't run on my Mac.

Concerning the Twister 7.7, I kind of figured it would be a little too much kite for me at this point but I was hoping I could get it anyway. Wishful thinking. :tumble: How about a Twister 4.1? The Twister just seems like more fun than the Beamer. Is it a mistake to be set on that particular line?

DAKITEZ: No offense taken about the Prism - I've heard that their foils are a bit more about speed than pull. What would you say is a good step up from the P.3?

And concerning the Amish - do you think there's any chance they'll convert from the horse and buggy to the kite buggy? :singing:

Thanks for the advice, everyone. Keep it coming! :roll:

EDIT: http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=10298 for a good deal on a Twister 7.7 - very helpful seller, too, he also told me the same thing you guys did here.

BigMikesKites - 3-8-2009 at 12:21 PM

The Twister is a MACK TRUCK of pulling. Much more than the Beamer. Tons of fun, but tons of pull too.

Drewculous - 3-8-2009 at 03:32 PM

i have the twister 5.6, and its a blast! Good all-arounder, can handle some nasty wind, and some baby stuff... Akulakat is right tho... tons of much enjoyed pull :thumbup:

ThePixelGuru - 3-8-2009 at 07:31 PM

Cool - sounds like a 4.1 might be just about right for me, then. I've been looking at some YouTube videos and it doesn't seem unmanageable, but it also seems like it can get me off the ground a little bit.

I'm almost settled on that one. Is that likely to be a good step up from the Stylus P.3? And yes, I'll be using kite killers and starting in low wind.

furbowski - 3-8-2009 at 07:46 PM

reckon the p3 is about 1.4 sq m in area, so the 4.1 is between 3-4 times as big. So it's a big jump. not only that, it's designed to be lifty, so I reckon more than 5X the lift.

so --- not really a good step, but rather a biggish but still doable step.

Akulakat had one, it was his first after a stunter, I believe.

unfortunately he got it in winter, got blown all over the place, and sold it just before the summer winds came through!

I think you'd be better off getting a 3m 4-line that is not so lifty -- will still be double the power if not more than your p3.

the conventional wisdom here is not to get a jumper for your first 4-line: very few people actually get going well on that plan without buying a smaller and safer kite quite quickly.

BigMikesKites - 3-8-2009 at 08:10 PM

Yeah, My first Power kite was the 4.1m Twister (first version). It was awesome!!! But it did drag my heavy frame around like a rag doll in 25mph winds. Why did I fly it in those winds.....it was there!

Great kite, I will get another sometime. This was my first kite, but I very quickly bought a 2m Brooza as well. I flew the Brooza more in the winter when the winds are stronger around Texas. The twister didn't get much action so I sold it. Then June hit and the winds ran away and I was wishing for that twister again.

ThePixelGuru - 3-8-2009 at 08:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by furbowski
reckon the p3 is about 1.4 sq m in area, so the 4.1 is between 3-4 times as big. So it's a big jump. not only that, it's designed to be lifty, so I reckon more than 5X the lift.

so --- not really a good step, but rather a biggish but still doable step.

Akulakat had one, it was his first after a stunter, I believe.

unfortunately he got it in winter, got blown all over the place, and sold it just before the summer winds came through!

I think you'd be better off getting a 3m 4-line that is not so lifty -- will still be double the power if not more than your p3.

the conventional wisdom here is not to get a jumper for your first 4-line: very few people actually get going well on that plan without buying a smaller and safer kite quite quickly.

Sorry, should have mentioned the P.3 is 2.5 sq. m. I've heard the pull is less than other kites of a similar size (like DAKITEZ mentioned earlier in this thread), but last week at the beach I encountered a couple with a 3.0 Best kite (not sure which model, some dual-liner on a bar) and I was pulling out some small scuds while they were struggling to get their landboard moving.

I don't mean to come across as so gung-ho about jumping, it's just that I'd be happy if I can use the kite for that later without investing another $300. I wouldn't even think about trying it the first time I'm out, or even the sixth. Is it still a bad idea to go to a liftier kite like that even if I use it more conservatively? I do still have the smaller Stylus, and I'd definitely be pulling that out when the wind hit >10mph or so, at least until I got the hang of the Twister.

Really, the reason why I keep gravitating toward bigger kites is that we get a lot of 5-10mph wind days around here and I want something that's going give a good bit of pull in those conditions.

BigMikesKites - 3-8-2009 at 10:11 PM

I think you will be fine. I went from a Prism Quantum (stunt kite) to a Twister 4.1. In the beginning I put a limit of 15 mph on the twister for flying. Beyond that and I was controlled, not the kite (at the time). Now, I'm much more in tune to brake input and I can handle the larger kites in higher winds.

A 4.1 would be a happy medium. You will eventually want a 2m or 3m for the really windy days. Plus you don't want to throw the sticks at your friends to try and get them flying with you if its going to pull their arms off right away.

furbowski - 4-8-2009 at 04:17 AM

agree with akulakat!

2.5 ish to 4 is a more doable step.

and yes for 5-10 mph winds the 4.1 will be nice. if you like the twister, it won't be long before you want to get a bigger one with those winds!

i've seen a couple of those best kites -- blue, right? -- and they aren't that great, small wind window, terrible in low winds.

I reckon with a lifty 4 m you might be able to pick up your feet once in a while in 10 mph, but the real jumps would not kick in until around 13-14. fully powered from 15-20, but it will be a few flying hours, as you say, before you're ready to master the kite in those conditions.

have fun!

ThePixelGuru - 4-8-2009 at 04:06 PM

Awesome. Yeah, like I said, I'm not planning on jumping any time soon, and not in those winds, but it'd be great to have a kite capable of doing that given some increased windspeed (not to mention increased skill level!). I'm thinking a good plan might be a Twister 4.1 soon and a 7.7 next year sometime.

And the Best kite was red, white and black. It definitely seemed to luff pretty badly at times, seemed to me like it shouldn't be doing that in those nice off-the-water winds. I had to force my kite to about ninety degrees from downwind before it would luff, and even then it would usually recover even without input.

Anyway. Twister 4.1 it is! Thanks for the advice, everyone.

ThePixelGuru - 4-8-2009 at 04:06 PM

Duplicate post. Whoops.

Is there any way to delete these?