Power Kite Forum - Use Kite Killers while Buggying?

Use Kite Killers while Buggying?

BigMikesKites - 31-7-2009 at 05:43 AM

I just wanted to see who uses Kite Killers while on a buggy and who does not. I see pros and cons.

pro. drop the kite when you are in trouble
drop the kite when it is in trouble

cons.
Something to tangle on
Keeps you tethered to the kite in case of some unforeseen happening.

Anyone else let me know. I got a buggy sitting in the garage waiting for the rain to stop. :wee:

dylanj423 - 31-7-2009 at 07:43 AM

i use them.... i thread the killers through the brake loops to prevent them from wrapping around the wheel.... nothing like running over your own lines at 20 mph.... ive only had to bail a couple of times, but its nice to be able to bail and not spend a long time sorting out your lines

burritobandit - 31-7-2009 at 08:04 AM

I use 'em when I buggy every time. I had the tangle problem when first starting out but spin my wrist straps a little to where the bungie doesn't hang so low.

lunchbox - 31-7-2009 at 08:36 AM

I use them as well. Had a few tangles over the years but nothing too bad. If I didn't ride near people or roads, I probably would not wear them...

windzup - 31-7-2009 at 11:23 AM

I use KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s depending on the situation. If it is mellow winds or smaller size kites I fly without them, preferring to use the brakes manually to drop the kite.

If the wind is strong or I am riding particularly powered up, I will thread the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s thru the brake loop on the bottom of the handles and use them as a back up safety.

My personal example is riding race kites on a dry lake, or in off shore winds... if the sh*t hits the fan I like to know that I can let go of the kite and it will both stall out and stay connected to me.

In winter, when flying race kites, I have rigged up a Y line leash that connects to my harness. I have a quick release on the harness side, and small carabiners that I use on the Y end to clip into the handles. This set up is made for standing on skis, and may tangle if used in a buggy in a seated position.

Safety first!

Windzup,
Brian Schenck

"Ozone Loyalist and Product Enhancer"

acampbell - 31-7-2009 at 12:54 PM

Always fly with KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s in the bug as I am frequently upwind of people. In case a bystander asks me about safety issues (it happens), I like to be able to say that I have a way out of trouble.
Great idea about the leash through the brake loops.

Bladerunner - 31-7-2009 at 01:13 PM

I don't use them unless I have to.

I think they are a great tool for beginers.

I'm still not convinced thery are all that safe ? Better to fly out of trouble once you have the skill?

Wouldn't they be standard issue ( like with depower ) if there was a real need for them ?

acampbell - 31-7-2009 at 01:20 PM

They are indeed standard issue on just about all fixed bridle kites that are sold R2F. One exception is the Core from PL, which is meant for the pilot that can make their own equipment decisions.

tdmc96 - 31-7-2009 at 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
I don't use them unless I have to.

I think they are a great tool for beginers.

I'm still not convinced thery are all that safe ? Better to fly out of trouble once you have the skill?

Wouldn't they be standard issue ( like with depower ) if there was a real need for them ?

I have to agree with Bladerunner here.

I have been in the buggy for about a year and a half and have never really got used to using them.
I tried them once but the line kept getting in the way.

If I ever get into that much trouble...I would just let go.

Scudley - 31-7-2009 at 02:43 PM

I do not believe kite killers are safe. They will save your kite. They will mean you do not have to untangle you lines when you let go. Neither of these are safety features. They will not save you or bystanders from harm. I swore by them until I nearly took a bystander's head off because of them. Had I not been using them my handles would have sailed past him harmlessly. Because I had them on the bystander was caught in the bite of the line. (It is a long and embarrassing story.)
There are many times that being able to let go of your kite will save your life. If you think the conditions are such that you may have to let go, it is probably time to switch down to a smaller kite.
Not a single person in Vancouver uses them except when the issue is forced on them. All of our old time flyers ( Riccardo, DirtSlide, Drifter, etc) disdain them.
Sky Country kites do not come with kite killers nor do we recommend their use. Remember rule number 1 of power kiting: Never permanently attach yourself to your kite.
I started a thread about killers last year. The responses that I got back from some were quite amazing. Many were very angry that I even questioned kite killers efficacy. Most seemed to be about how they the pilot gave greater confidence to fly in stronger winds. I do not think inspiring false confidence is a safety feature. One guy even wrote that he used them because he flew near power lines, (Kite rule number 1: Never fly near power lines). Now lunchbox writes he uses them because he rides near roads. If your kite comes down and snags on a moving car or truck, it is going to be very tricky to get out of your killers as you are dragged.
As to their being standard issue, for years every ski binding had runaway straps as standard issue. It was only through studies of over 25 years of skiing accident reports that straps were found to be the cause of injuries far more severe than those they were the supposed cure for. Now they are banned at just about every ski resort. I am not planning to be one of the stats that bans killers.
I hope my opinion does not offend anyone; if it does; .... 'em. :moon:
S
skycountry.ca

heliboy50 - 31-7-2009 at 03:28 PM

As with a lot of more extreme sports, many equipment issues have more to do with comfort than anything else. Personally, I use them but my buggy learning curve has been pretty steep (I am learning with a JoJo rm4.) I have had to use them several times whilst learning to link turns (oops-OBE or ditch the kite.) I also practiced with them flying static before I ever even got into my buggy, so I knew what the experience would be like. The only tangle I have gotten from them was on the top of my bug's headset when i first used my harness as my handles where now in a different spot. I don't think you came across as offensive, Scudley, you just voiced your opinion and that is what the forum is for. I would say that while KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s are a safety device, NO safety device can ever cover all bases, and if used improperly they can have the total opposite effect as desired. Again, my experience with another safety device: I spent the cash to get the good wichard shackle for my harness and have yet to have the time (or presence of mind, I guess) to release it when the dookie hit the fan.

Bladerunner - 31-7-2009 at 08:21 PM

AHH the annual kite killer debate ! We shall remain as far apart as our coasts on our opinions here ! :yes:

I think LEI's are better :wink2:

Bladerunner - 31-7-2009 at 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
They are indeed standard issue on just about all fixed bridle kites that are sold R2F. One exception is the Core from PL, which is meant for the pilot that can make their own equipment decisions.

You probably know much better than me about this but .... are you sure Ozone, PKD, Libre, Zibre, Cooper, JOJO and others all include killers ?
If so this is a recent change ?

HQ and P.L. YES, but who else ?

Is it just coincidence that the more " race " the kite company the less likely they are to have killers ?

Not picking on you , just bored and boiling in this heat.

BigMikesKites - 31-7-2009 at 08:33 PM

i appreciate all the feedback. I like the kite killers for static flying, but my concern came from the thought of 'I'm moving here and I've got a mile or so of grass' so what happens if I meet up with a bicyclist or even a small sign and the the lines get wrapped. Off I go instead of just losing grip on the kite. I didn't even think what if a car snagged something. I hadn't planned to be near a car, but a maintenance crew golf cart could be almost as bad if I'm going one way at 25mph and they are going the other at 10 mph.

I'm leaning towards...If I'm flying static in one area, use the killers, but if I'm mobile, not. Thanks for all the input. I think everyone has a preference. I'm about safety first, kites second. A new kite is cheaper than a hospital bill.

Scudley - 31-7-2009 at 10:26 PM

Quote:

Amen Bro from this member of the choir. Keep spreading the gospel. Do not just think of yourself, how many feet of 300 # test line have to drag across someones throat to inflict a fatal wound? See how the authorities deal with that one.
S

Originally posted by Akulakat
i appreciate all the feedback. I like the kite killers for static flying, but my concern came from the thought of 'I'm moving here and I've got a mile or so of grass' so what happens if I meet up with a bicyclist or even a small sign and the the lines get wrapped. Off I go instead of just losing grip on the kite. I didn't even think what if a car snagged something. I hadn't planned to be near a car, but a maintenance crew golf cart could be almost as bad if I'm going one way at 25mph and they are going the other at 10 mph.

I'm leaning towards...If I'm flying static in one area, use the killers, but if I'm mobile, not. Thanks for all the input. I think everyone has a preference. I'm about safety first, kites second. A new kite is cheaper than a hospital bill.

heliboy50 - 1-8-2009 at 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
are you sure Ozone, PKD, Libre, Zibre, Cooper, JOJO and others all include killers ?
If so this is a recent change ?

HQ and P.L. YES, but who else ?

Is it just coincidence that the more " race " the kite company the less likely they are to have killers ?

It seems to me that if a kite comes RTF, KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s are usually included. Most race kites don't come that way (I think due to the huge variance in preferred line length.) I know that Ozone and PKD's RTFs have 'em. Ozones are reaaaalllly nice ones too. They have a big silicone tube over heavy line d-ring that you can hook a finger in and yank-presto totally cut free of the whole deal.

Bladerunner - 1-8-2009 at 09:25 AM

I just looked at the PKD site. No killers that I can see? I KNOW they didn't come with the kite when Pablo ran the North American show ?

Last time I looked Ozone makes a POINT of NOT refering to the kite killers in their manual ?

I think you are bunching RTF with beginer packages ?

To ME R2F means kite, lines and handles. When did it start to include killers ?

I agree that killers are a personal choice. I'm not saying don't use them, just that I don't. ( nor 90+% of the riders I respect. )

acampbell - 1-8-2009 at 12:56 PM

whatever

heliboy50 - 1-8-2009 at 01:40 PM

Don't know. Would anyone call the OZ Riot a beginner kite? I wouldn't and it came with them. I checked and Ozone rtf kites, when ordered with handles VS. a bar, come with them. RTF doesn't equal beginner kites, and I never said that. But I suck anyway, so what do I know? BACK to original topic: KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s or not while in the buggy. Yes I do. Next....

Sand-Yeti - 1-8-2009 at 09:30 PM

I never use KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s. I hate the dangly loops that get in the way.
The thought of dumping the handles is just alien to me.
In the event something goes wrong, I just hit the brakes which does the same thing i.e. kills the kite.

I am always in a harness and find it quicker to pull the brakes than release the QR.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-KK and will refuse to give instructions to a newbie if he/she isn't wearing KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s.
I have been buggying 8 years without KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s although I have experimented with them on occasion but never felt the need to have them.

WIllardTheGrey - 1-8-2009 at 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner

Last time I looked Ozone makes a POINT of NOT refering to the kite killers in their manual ?

I think you are bunching RTF with beginer packages ?

Quote:

Ozone Yakuza 2.5m - 3m - 3.7m - 4.5m - 10m sizes TBA £

Ozone Yakuza GT 5.5m £530 Kite Only
Ozone Yakuza GT 6.8m £609 Kite Only
Ozone Yakuza GT 8.3m £690 Kite Only
Ozone Yakuza GT 12m £790 Kite Only
Ozone Yakuza GT 14m £859 Kite Only
Ozone Yakuza GT 17m £915 Kite Only

RTF package is £79.95 and comes with Ozone Handles, Kite Killers and 2 x 180kg / 2 x 110kg 20m Flying Lines

I do use them to land in strong wind.

BeamerBob - 2-8-2009 at 05:49 AM

Flexi also packages them with RTF even those beginner Blades and Blurrs :smilegrin:

. I have buggied without them in consistent light winds at the beach with large kites. If things are more dicey or I'm in closer quarters with a 5m or smaller kite, then I start to feel more like I need the killers just to keep everything in control if something goes wrong. Higher lumpy winds are the ones that get you in trouble. The times I've had to go to killers in the buggy, I only had time to let go as I was headed out of the buggy. Fly out hasn't been an option if I wanted to keep my seat. I fly with the handles in my fingertips so if a huge gust comes with more power than I can ride out or prepare for, the handles will pull out of my hand. My local park is plenty big for 3-4 buggies to be rolling at the same time, but there are roads and power lines safely in the distance at the perimeter. They would only be an issue if the kite is drifting aimlessly away from me. If I ditch the kite with kite killers, the kite falls safely to the ground. I can't imagine feeling better that if I had to let go of the handles, having the kite drifting away from me for some distance and at some possibility of peril without kks. I don't ride anywhere that still being attached to an unpowered kite still puts me in danger. That's what works for me.

Krohn1999 - 2-8-2009 at 08:22 AM

IMO The only good use for Kite killers in connection with a buggy

Kite killers are ok if somone is learning how to control a kite but I think you should be past the kite killer phase before you get in a buggy.

Kite killers should never be used with any kind of race kite (especially Yakuza)

kite killers.jpg - 25kB

Bladerunner - 2-8-2009 at 09:33 AM

I am aware that ozone make + supply KK I just find it interesting that they mention all other safety equipment but not killers in the manual ?

I think that this is a pretty good subject even if we won't all agree .

I think we all seem to agree that Killers are a good choice for beginers. Then if you like them, keep them.

Around here we see it a bit like Krohn . Killers are something you grow out of.

ripsessionkites - 2-8-2009 at 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krohn1999[/i
Kite killers are ok if somone is learning how to control a kite but I think you should be past the kite killer phase before you get in a buggy.

THX for suming it up ... i agree with Chris.

KK have their place but leaning to control your kite is more important than relying on safety. sometimes you just have to "let go".

popeyethewelder - 2-8-2009 at 12:01 PM

Only used them when starting out....wouldn't dream of using them now, I have never let go of a kite in my life....or even used the quick release on my wichard...its all about knowing your limits and experience imho

Scudley - 2-8-2009 at 09:19 PM

The Ozone land kite manual now says kite killers are "mandatory". I guess they read last year's discussion on the topic decided they had to fix it. Still does not make them a good idea.
S

shehatesmyhobbies - 3-8-2009 at 09:39 AM

I have always used them, personal preference, They have saved me and bit me both. I do currently use them while buggying, but after reading some of the post, I may change my mind. Hmmmmm

lunchbox - 3-8-2009 at 11:47 AM

Quote:

Now lunchbox writes he uses them because he rides near roads. If your kite comes down and snags on a moving car or truck, it is going to be very tricky to get out of your killers as you are dragged.

Guess I should have clarified 'near roads' ;-)

I actually ride in a dirt field with a tree line at one end and then further away you have the road...so there is no concern with getting dragged by a car (valid point however). The point that I was trying to make is that in this instance, if I ever need to let go, I don't have to worry about my kite floating away and the kite and/or lines landing on a car or person. I'd rather hurt myself then some innocent bystander.

Having said that, I do think there are instances where they are applicable and instances in which they are not. I do think they have their place.

Now you can always say (in my situation), well ride a smaller kite, grab the brakes instead, etc....

But I do like to ride powered up and although I like to think I'm an aware and safe rider, I do fly in inland conditions in which a sudden gust can appear. Although I try to gauge my kite and skill level with current conditions, there have been a few times I've had to let go.

..and when you have to let go at a moments notice, I just can't see how 'grabbing the breaks' would be as quick as letting go??? BTW, I don't fly captive.

Too many variables...IMHO, they have their place.

tobytobsen - 4-8-2009 at 06:55 AM

I totally agree with lunchbox. For most spots I know, there are enough people around who you can seriosly hurt with an uncontrolled kite afer you let it go without killers. I fell quite a couple times with my ATB, and it was always good that i was able to let go without having to worry if my kite will hite somebody or something further downwind.

popeyethewelder - 4-8-2009 at 10:09 AM

I should also point out, I use a captive system, yes if I had to, I could utilise the quick release and let the kite go, thankfully, I have never had to do that

Using a captive system and a strop, makes using the killers very awkward especially when un twisting the lines after a few down turns on the move, yes I know you could loop the kite back, but sometimes, that would generate too much power when you don't want it.

If I have to land the kite quickly for what ever reason, I just grab a hand full of break lines, taking the power straight out of the kite.....but I have to say experience counts for an awful lot, knowing what you can and can't handle......but we all know mother nature has little surprises for us occasionally.

Like has been said though, there is a use and need for killers, for some people and situations

heliboy50 - 4-8-2009 at 01:00 PM

I've hit soft sand (still running skinny tires) and been stopped almost immediately, at which point the handles were ripped out of my hands. Killers prevented a long walk. When I start to buggy with my harness more, I may reconsider kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, but with the set up I am using, they are really not in the way. I do get tangles if I have to use them, but at that point I am just glad I didn't smear myself all over the ground again.:D

Big Earl - 5-8-2009 at 09:40 AM

I used kite killers once on a 6m in gusty winds, anyway a big gust came along, I let go, the HQ killers bungie broke on the rightside and snapped me in the eye. No permanent damage done but I did go to the er to have it checked out. There was a scratch on the lens. So 480.00 later I would rather untangle some lines and buy another kite with the $

Can't trust em

Scudley - 5-8-2009 at 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Earl
I used kite killers once on a 6m in gusty winds, anyway a big gust came along, I let go, the HQ killers bungie broke on the rightside and snapped me in the eye. No permanent damage done but I did go to the er to have it checked out. There was a scratch on the lens. So 480.00 later I would rather untangle some lines and buy another kite with the $

Can't trust em

Here is another example of what can happen. Killers may fail to collapse the kite and leave you tethered to fully powered up kite.
S

Tibi - 2-9-2009 at 10:12 AM

Try to imagine using a strop, but no kite killers. If you let go of the kite, the handles are most likely gonna get dragged on the ground... that strop can get hooked to something or SOMEONE and next the kite will power up... what now? A naive bystander will not even understand that you let go of the kite on purpose... one might even think he's doing you a favor and would run into the problem by grabbing the handles or the strop line. If the power of the kite was too much for the experienced kiter who had to bail out, imagine what would happen to the nice guy (that was just trying to help) holding the strop with a bare hand.
I prefer using kk.

acampbell - 2-9-2009 at 10:16 AM

Quote:

Wear glasses!!! Lots of things like lines can snap and get you in the eye, so don't blame the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s

lad - 2-9-2009 at 10:36 AM

Here's where KKs could have come in handy....