Power Kite Forum - Static flying with a harness?

Static flying with a harness?

Tonka - 6-9-2009 at 11:54 AM

Hey guys i need your info here....i know lots of you static with a harness and i have a couple questions:

1- how long does the line need to be between the handles?
2- do you hook in just to rest or will you fly harnessed?

I have sailed for years using a trapeze and harness so i am not a newby at using the harness just not sure about using it with a kite.

furbowski - 6-9-2009 at 12:08 PM

Ok no newby at using a harness that is good.

1) length depends on your arm length and how far the hook/roller is from your body. Also on the size of the knots you use to tie the strop (kite flyers name for the line between the handles) on to your handles. In other words, visualize the strop between your fists, attached to the harness point (NOT right next to your stomach unless you have a very good and tight harness, likely as far as six inches out, makes a huge difference) and then push one fist out as far as it will go and put the other fist next to your harness. A couple inches shorter than the distance between your fists is the length you need. That will be your maximum turn on power lines, without using brakes. Your knots need to be really small, or you will lose valuable inches.

2) - at first, hook in to rest. after you are more comfortable, try leaning back and eventually scudding. keep your respect for the wind about you, and that should tell you what to try next. soft sand and onshore breezes are way safer for pushing limits than wet grass and gusty winds.

be aware that when you start scudding hard with the harness, your risks of head injury start to go up pretty fast imho. consider wearing a helmet, especially if you are not comfortable with the conditions or ground.

snobdr - 6-9-2009 at 02:38 PM

Its stupit to fly hooked in with no way to release. You should use some kind of quick release on the strop. I dont understand why this is not brought up first thing.

Drewculous - 6-9-2009 at 02:39 PM

lol, i dont like strop lines and harnesses for static... or for newbies...

The only time i've been out of control was in a harness / strop / handles situation... i was flying / jumping that day... just hook in to rest, unhook to jump... well when a gust hits, you can stretch your arms out to soften the lift in nasty conditions, and stay on the ground... well i was hooked in taking a breather. and got grabbed by a gust... got lofted about 6-8' and slammed into the ground on my side... i got drug for prolly 50' till i could get the strop line out of the harness, and dump the kite.... not a fun time... actually the most scary time i've had on a kite to date... easy winds and a buggy, bust that strop out... crappy inland/gusty winds... skip the strop / harness!

dylanj423 - 6-9-2009 at 04:13 PM

learn to fly the kite before you try hooking in with a harness/ strop... when you get comfy with the kite and know how to fly it safely, then try hooking in... for my strop, i use some 4mm climbing rope from rei... it is plenty strong and doesnt stretch too much, it is also far cheaper than any other commercially available "strop line"... i use sections that are about 40 inches in length, and tie the ends into small loops, then make larks heads out of those loops...

the only quick release that is really available the use of a wichard shackle and roller... this will cost you about $100 to put together... i have never used one...

listen to snobdr if you like, most of us dont, though... he likes to tell us that we are all stupid, and i have come to understand that no matter what i do, it will be viewed as stupid by him... im sure you will come to your own conclusions about that, though...

the safety would be a good idea, but there really isnt a viable option that we all use... i know plenty of people that dont bother with a strop quick release... be smart about how you do it, and you should be fine

furbowski - 6-9-2009 at 07:41 PM

snobdr is right, QR's on strops is a good idea. But yes having a QR does not make it safe and there is no design that stand out above the others.

and the other folks are also right, yep using a strop ramps up the risks. And yeah LOL I don't like strops very much for static either, much better doing the armstrong thing. strops need to be used with a roller not a hook and they're best in buggies.

you'll actually find it's nice for taking breaks, but harder to fly with. Also landing the kite works fine for taking breaks, if you're having trouble landing you shouldn't be flying....

If you're using a strop to fly winds you otherwise couldn't manage, then things get really risky and no QR works all the time.

snobdr - 6-9-2009 at 08:12 PM

People getting hurt brings the sport down and that effects all of us. Being hooked to a kite with no way to release is a sure way to get hurt. I really dont care if you like me or not, or take my advice or not. Taking unneccesary risks by being hooked into a kite with no way to get out of it is stupid.

Tonka - 7-9-2009 at 06:04 AM

Unneccesary risks sometimes are part of the game....just look at all the sport people do: kites, paragliders, parachuting, base jumping, rock climbing, etc....

The rules is minimising the risk factor!!!

But you are correct in the fact that people getting hurt brings down ANY sport......being hooked in to a kite may not be the safest thing to do but it may be the best thing to do for the flying conditions.

Not sure if you have sailed any high performance sail boats but half the fun is being hooked to a trapeze line hanging off the side of a boat by a harness and your feet....smart? no because if anything happens your hooked to a BOAT.....fun? dude you think flying a kite is cool, try flying a boat!!!!

kitejumper - 7-9-2009 at 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr
People getting hurt brings the sport down and that effects all of us. Being hooked to a kite with no way to release is a sure way to get hurt. I really dont care if you like me or not, or take my advice or not. Taking unneccesary risks by being hooked into a kite with no way to get out of it is stupid.

you might want to pay attention to what he said--my friend was using a harness and resting in my buggy--i was standing nearby w my camera--next thing,i look up and my buddy is flying through the air like a piece of styrofoam--trust me,it was not pretty to watch,and he is 265 lbs and he just got scraped up,but it could have been worse........i'll stick w handles myself--im not sure if he had a safety release,but it happened so fast,he would never have been able to release it in a split second--

Bladerunner - 7-9-2009 at 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kitejumper

Quote:

If your friend was resting with the kite off to one side he would not have been lofted.

I agree that being hooked in is dangerous and I made little QR releases for my strops because I think hooking in is good.

If you don't start hooking in early it becomes a big deal later.

You are usually not " hooked in " in most cases you can still "push out" quicker than reaching for a QR.

acampbell - 7-9-2009 at 08:23 AM

Flying a fixed bridle static on handles with a harness is kind of pointless, IMO. If the strain is that great that you need the strop flying static then you are arguably overpowered, and that is precisely the point at which un-hooking is impossible. Besides scudding, there is little way to absorb and dissipate the power, and scudding like that hooked in presents a lot of risk.
It's another thing in the buggy or maybe on landboard where you are more likely to have a longer session and fatigue becomes an issue, especially on an upwind leg where side forces are greatly amplified. In such cases, the experienced rider has opportunities to dissipate excess energy that comes with a gust. Part of this is the right gear (heavy buggy, the right sized foil) in the given conditions and there is nothing at all stupid about it.

furbowski - 7-9-2009 at 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Flying a fixed bridle static on handles with a harness is kind of pointless, IMO.

After giving it some thought, I'd second this. I don't anymore, I used to, but for a proper rest I can always land the kite and jumping static on a strop actually kinda sucks, I can always get more out of the jumps unhooked, sometimes a lot more.

It's definitely good to do for practice, and something you want to get used to for boarding and to a lesser degree buggy, and you need to fly static on a harness until you are comfy with it before you take it to buggy / board / whatever.

But as angus points out in his pithy words above, hooking in static on a strop will expose you to enormous extra risks if you are powered up enough to handle forces you can't handle on handles.

And actually reviewing your first post and your statement, "i know lots of you static with a harness", I'm not sure that's true. I mean anybody who uses a harness can static with a harness of course, and it's a necessary step, not one to be skipped. But as a regular practice to get something one can't get without the strop? I doubt it, actually, not in the long term. Perhaps every kite pilot tries it... But IMHO very few do it as an end in itself, if you know what I mean.

So yes do give it go, it's a necessary and important skill. But using a strop and harness to get higher than you can without is really dangerous. Remember that with the added mobility and body english it's almost always possible to get more air stropless and unhooked on handles than when stropped and hooked. So why expose yourself to the extra risk?

btw, strops work way better on a roller, on a hook they seriously suck...:P

Don't forget BR's recommendation about the QR on the strops...

dylanj423 - 7-9-2009 at 09:18 AM

a note about quick release on strops.... not too long ago, i thought i had a great idea on this, and made a quick release... it worked as a quick release... BUT it was not functional at all, as it gets caught on the spreader bar...

the scenario... buggying in about 18mph winds, gusting higher... flying a 3.5m century (i think)... i am having a blast, the winds are good, me and my pals are out at our buggy spot, and we are all buggying it up... i go for a power loop (i love looping it.... so much fun), and realize that something is wrong... my strop has gotten caught it the hook of the spreader bar... i am stuck in looping, trying to get out of it, but i have to disengage completely...

you see, putting a quick release in the strop requires use of some space, in mine, it used only about an inch and a half... this inch and a half setup got caught in the hook, and got stuck there... had i not gotten out of it, the kite would have continued to loop until i had gotten out of the harness completely...

this "safety" actually was a hazard... your only option for a quick release safety with a strop line should not encumber the strop line itself, and must put additional hardware between you and the handles...

oh and speaking of stupid... you are taking uneccessary risks by driving on the freeway, driving at night, driving in storms, riding a bicycle, walking in a storm (esp. with an umbrella), swimming at the beach, flying in an airplane, playing a round of golf, eating sushi, eating in any restaurant really... (should i go on???)... oh, better forget about sex altogether

live the way you want to, and be as safe as you can... we all take risks, that is part of the fun... take responsibility for yourself

and stop preaching to other people if it is unwelcome... snobdr, you calling other people stupid is unwelcome, i think we all agree on that

Tonka - 7-9-2009 at 09:34 AM

Good points by all....the intention was not to fly overpowered and be able to use the harness as leverage... it was to fly the PROPER SIZE kite and NOT have to park it when ever one needs to take a break [ie: get the blood back in your arms, realease the tention on your fingers etc...]

The accepted way to relax for a second with most other kites is to park it a zenith and let it float for a bit....these kites don't like that and pushing to the edge of the window does release the tension but it is sometimes hard work to keep it there....

furbowski - 7-9-2009 at 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dylanj423

your only option for a quick release safety with a strop line should not encumber the strop line itself, and must put additional hardware between you and the handles...

are you saying no QR on the strop line, and the only other solution is a wichart or piston release (as the additional hardware)?

your suggested solution is not very clear...

I wonder if making something more like a tophat would have helped? Would it have happened on a roller?

but yes any blockage on strop is very annoying, and for me they are never long enough! (for static anyways

)

some harnesses come with quick releases on the spreader bar?

Not trying to challenge, just asking lots of stupid questions LOL.

snobdr - 7-9-2009 at 09:49 AM

first i never called anyone stupid, what i said was the act was stupid.
Your points on whats unneccesary are a bit out of touch.

One more point about " i can just push out" "its faster then reaching for a release"
Being lofted or yanked across the ground, the kite is imposing many times what the riders weight is. Being able to unhook a strop in this instance is near impossible. Your along for the ride.......

Tonka - 7-9-2009 at 10:00 AM

"Being lofted or yanked across the ground, the kite is imposing many times what the riders weight is. Being able to unhook a strop in this instance is near impossible. Your along for the ride....... "

Snobdr is correct here guys....if your down belly first and hooked in your almost done for, quick release or not. One of the biggest feers of trapeezing on a sailboat is being dragged underwater, one cannot unhook until either the boat stops or the skipper lifts you out with the mast.

My initial questions were exactly related to this issue as the "strop" would have to be almost longer than both your arms extended [in my view] so you can rest for few seconds and regrab the handles. If its to short you have to "pull" against the kite, which as we know makes it more powerful creating a very dangerous scenario....

furbowski - 7-9-2009 at 10:23 AM

ummm all the snobdr stuff aside (ugh) I'm not sure you quite get how strops work just yet.

What makes me say that is your comment about having to have the strop so long so you can rest. There's no need to have the strop so long. the longer the better yes, but the length of your arms is the limit because once you run out of arm you run out of control. So the strop needs to be shorter than your reach on one arm, minus double the distance between the point of the strop attachment and your belly, minus any knots or encumbrances on the strop line itself.

As soon as you hook in, you can rest your arms, doesn't matter where the handles are in relation to the hook point, at that point your hands control brakes (when hooked in often works to slide your hands down the handles a bit for extra leverage on the brakes) and your arms only have to deal with the difference in tension between the power lines, not the total pull -- your body weight takes care of that. You use your body for pull and your arms and hands for control inputs. Much easier, but the range and quality of control suffers when static. Buggy / Landboard things are different and I can't comment further on that...

In lighter winds there is very little extra risk. Yes Pansh don't like the zenith but try nice onshore breezes sometime they will like it a lot better, however not good enough to take your eyes off them for long.

snobdr - 7-9-2009 at 10:36 AM

have been belly down on a beach and had no problem getting to my quickrelease. I find it funny how this subject seems to get blown off.

kitejumper - 7-9-2009 at 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Flying a fixed bridle static on handles with a harness is kind of pointless, IMO. .

my friend was using a bar

acampbell - 7-9-2009 at 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kitejumper

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Flying a fixed bridle static on handles with a harness is kind of pointless, IMO. .

my friend was using a bar

No matter. I could / should have said "any fixed bridle static..."

WELDNGOD - 7-9-2009 at 12:49 PM

here we are again,can't be beat. Releases under serious load
Only used for buggy or board

viewthread[1].jpeg - 21kB

kitejumper - 7-9-2009 at 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell

Quote:

Originally posted by kitejumper

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Flying a fixed bridle static on handles with a harness is kind of pointless, IMO. .

my friend was using a bar

No matter. I could / should have said "any fixed bridle static..."

i guess his logic was it would reduce strain on the arms

dylanj423 - 7-9-2009 at 02:40 PM

Quote:

are you saying no QR on the strop line, and the only other solution is a wichart or piston release (as the additional hardware)?

I wonder if making something more like a tophat would have helped? Would it have happened on a roller?

some harnesses come with quick releases on the spreader bar?

yes, i am suggesting the use of a wichard shackle... the QR spreader bar is another good idea, but as i recall there were bugs with the design... would be GREAT if they got worked out... i would consider buying one...

whatever you put into the strop line has a chance of getting stuck in the spreader bar... a roller would work to prevent a jam, but by then, youre probably already using a shackle anyway... even if you werent, youre mobility on one side of the strop would be hindered

the only option that i would seriously consider (for me) would be the qr spreader bar... no extra equipment in the way, nothing to get snagged in the hook of the spreader bar...

by the way, i didnt take this as challenging at all, this is how adults communicate most of the time