Power Kite Forum

PL Twinskins

dave brown - 17-9-2009 at 10:10 AM

I just got my first PL Arc, Venom 19
I love the easy self launch/land and how the kite feels in the air. Auto zenith is awsome
The kite is so smooth it's crazy..It's a joy to fly but......

The bottom end sucks, my buddies were on 12's and I had to use my big board.

How are the newer Arc's. Will any get me going on water in 10 or 11 knts
How's bottom end on the Synergies?

I kite alone most of the time and some of my local beaches make it a pain to launch/land my LEI's alone. I think Arc's fit the bill if I can find one that works in 10 - 11 knts

I'm 175lbs and have a 135/40 and a 158.

Thanks
Dave

rudeboysaude - 17-9-2009 at 11:01 AM

Maybe.. I have a 19M Synergy and a Door 64. I weigh probably close to 220 with all my crap on. I really need 12 to move and 15 to have any fun. I've gotten to be quite a wind snob in my old age to where I won't even bother trying to put my 19 up unless it's 12-15. I'd rather sit on the beach and watch others struggle until the wind comes up.

ARCs rock, but they aren't good low wind kites and I think the things that make them sweet kites will always hinder how well they perform in low winds. That's just the nuts of it.

Truthfully, I'd rather do something else if it's only blowing 10 mph no matter what kite I had. I'd mod out that V19 before I spent lots of money on a 19 Syn hopeing for better low end. You could do some tucks and shoulder mods and stuff to get a few more mph out of it. The Synergy is definatly an upgrade, but not just for the low end side of it.

lad - 17-9-2009 at 11:45 AM

All the Syn blurbs talked about the better lower end - you're saying the 19m Syn's low end isn't much better than the 19m V2's?

rudeboysaude - 17-9-2009 at 12:23 PM

The Syn19 turns faster, so you might be able to generate more power if you have big guns and like to work the kite all day, then yes. Better low end. I think the Syn19 has a projected area of 11.6. I think bigger ARCs are really just made for us bigger guys, not so much for lower winds.

dave brown - 17-9-2009 at 01:06 PM

That sucks.:puzzled:
Most days round here are on the light side, less than 15 knts
Do you have any info on the Venom mods?
I only found http://www.instructables.com/id/Peter-Lynn-Venom-modificatio...

I look forward to flying the 19 on the snow, I had it up in <10 knots the other day and
even underpowered it flew great.

Any lighter guys out there have any luck with a big synergy and lighter winds?

dylanj423 - 17-9-2009 at 01:07 PM

arcs need lotsa wind to act right... i need at least 10 mph to do anything on land, and about 17 mph with my 19m venom II on water.... if you want a larger kite and want to spend the dough, a big flysurfer packs more power than an arc, and has the same self-launch and land benefit

rudeboysaude - 17-9-2009 at 02:00 PM

Mx5Alan's setup guide here lists the TET and Shoulder mod:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/ARCsetup_FAQ.htm

It's almost at the end of the page. On the snow you'll be able to ride your kite in 10 knots. Alot less resistance especially if you're a skier.

BeamerBob - 17-9-2009 at 02:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dylanj423
arcs need lotsa wind to act right... i need at least 10 mph to do anything on land, and about 17 mph with my 19m venom II on water.... if you want a larger kite and want to spend the dough, a big flysurfer packs more power than an arc, and has the same self-launch and land benefit


I was adequately powered on my Syn 12m in 12-14mph on water. That kite turns so fast you can generate power just by turning in the lighter winds. I'll get a 15 charger and will be able to compare soon. Depending on its light wind side, I might opt for the 19 to back it up. I'm a bigger guy at 225 and 6'4 so I'm watching this thread closely.

rudeboysaude - 17-9-2009 at 03:51 PM

I've wanted to try Wollo's VPC bridle and adjustable TET for a while now on my Syn19. Maybe after my 15M Charger gets here I'll give it a shot and see what it does to the low end. Info is over at the arcusers site. Supposedly it offers:

-the kite is turning faster and with more ease
-the steering forces drop by quite a margin.
-the kite is gruntier and produces more power in the low end
-No loss in high end reported
-No loss in stability reported

Looks like an easy mod as well. If I can get an ARC to get my nicely powered even on a Door at 10 mph I'd be pretty excited. I've got some other kite modding I have to do so maybe I can do it all at once. If it's a noticable effect, I'll let ya know.

dave brown - 17-9-2009 at 04:18 PM

Bob when you were on your 12m sin what were others flying?
Will a 19m sin have the bottom end of say a 14m LEI?

I know for a fact that my 19mV1 has the bottom end of a 12m

Bladerunner - 17-9-2009 at 04:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rudeboysaude
I think bigger ARCs are really just made for us bigger guys, not so much for lower winds.


I have been feeling like this is the case for a while but don't have enough experience with larger arcs to compare ( yet ) .

Without a doubt my Syn is turning me into a wind snob. I'm just not happy if I'm not powered enough to get decent jumps in these days. :no:

The charger is supposed to have an improved bottom end being stiffer and all ? I sure hope so. My #1 beef with my arcsperience is the lack of low end.

syuzhak - 17-9-2009 at 04:59 PM

IMO Nothing beats a Flysurfer in lightwinds... I can ride my 12m Speed2 upwind from 10 knots. Peter Lynns are high wind kites really, the inefficiency at the lowend makes them much more fun on the high end... Likewise the Flysurfer Speed2s aren't very fun at the high end.

tridude - 17-9-2009 at 05:12 PM

when Bob was out on his 12m there were two others out on Flysurfer Pulses....... 10 and 12 meters...........................I rode his 12 in the same winds.....had to work the kite but had no probs working upwind....................Phree gets going in 13/14mph on his 13m Venom...........what size boards are you all using on the low end with your arcs?

tridude - 17-9-2009 at 05:14 PM

I get rolling on my 15m Phantom in 15/16 mph and my Crazyfly.........................:lol::lol::duh::duh:

PHREERIDER - 17-9-2009 at 05:15 PM

on flat water 145 board at 200lbs around 12mph my v16/phantom15 was doable but my v13 is just quicker and allows better upwind in 13-14mph with considerable kite work

most flyers here run 12m lei and i would fly my v13m @200lbs. i am usually first out and can hold this kite up to 35-40mph at that point most lei would be 8m.

a bigger kite can deliver alot of power but its slow to come around esp. in light air(say 10mph) and really beats up the shoulders over time. it not about power. its more about a quick kite and balance with a fast board. board width is really critical for light air planning.

quicker 12/13m PL with good board control gets light air rides.

a fast board (no concave bottom) works for light air rides with arcs


on land ATB or skates same but down around 7mph with 13m

kiting skills and balance make for good light wind riding . with too much power you can't stay up wind .

Kamikuza - 17-9-2009 at 06:07 PM

Hmm interesting thread ... here, on the Drew scale, the wind is either epic or crap. Yet when it's epic, it's gusting up to where even I'm starting to get concerned on my 16m LEI ... at 6'2" and *cough* 220 lbs :D

rudeboysaude - 17-9-2009 at 06:57 PM

In all these cases I think the magic number is at least 12mph. If you're on a big kite like my 19Syn you don't need to work it as fast as you would a 13. In either case you need a big board and really work at it to get upwind and ride focusing on what you're doing.

That's why I wait for 15. Then you can jump, park it, play around and have more fun with the board then worrying about tiny details. In the summer the only kite I fly is my 19Syn. I think I had one day on my 13V2 this year. I only take that out when its consistently over 25. My laziness to work for a ride in low winds is really what prompted getting a Kite Cat. Hopefully now I can fly an ARC in 5mph and move across the water while drinking a beer instead of sitting on the beach doing it waiting for more wind! haha..

Kamikuza - 17-9-2009 at 08:09 PM

:lol: I can dig that logic :thumbup:

geokite - 17-9-2009 at 09:46 PM

I had the 2nd 19syn in the us, early last summer. I kitesurf with that kite about 85% of the time. I'm 165lbs, fly on 27m lines, glide 149 board (wide door type board). I can just stay upwind in 12mph, and have alot of fun in 14mph. Open ocean with small waves. Upper end where it is uncomfortable is about 19mph.

Hope that helps.

BeamerBob - 18-9-2009 at 04:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rudeboysaude
Maybe.. I have a 19M Synergy and a Door 64. I weigh probably close to 220 with all my crap on. I really need 12 to move and 15 to have any fun. I've gotten to be quite a wind snob in my old age to where I won't even bother trying to put my 19 up unless it's 12-15. I'd rather sit on the beach and watch others struggle until the wind comes up.



So saude, if you need 12-15 to start out on your 19 (or any other arc) what is your top end on the 19? Your logic has me leaning towards the 19 C instead of the 15. I guess I could always use my Phantom as my "high wind kite". I'm a little worried about being boxed in on higher wind days. I'm hearing 35-40 from Phreerider on his v13 (and I believe it) and you say you get out a 13 with winds over 25. I think I'd be happy if I could ride in winds from 12 and up through the low 20's. At this point I'm leaning towards the 19 considering my normal light winds and 225 lbs. At this point I'm a little more comfortable with less kite work since my timing isn't the best yet.

tridude - 18-9-2009 at 05:40 AM

I had Kitedogs 13m V2 out in 23 to 26 kts with no issues....................well my harness rode up and I could barley reach my bar when fully out..........................:lol::lol:.......sweet airs though:duh::duh: Quick kite and bigger board is one ticket for lighter winds..............AJ rides his 12m Phantom in 15kts with no issues (vids on you tube).............again, Bobs (now Furbs) 12m Syn is so fast you can make extra hp with decent kite skillz..........................

BeamerBob - 18-9-2009 at 06:06 AM

I'm curious about the high end penalty for going big instead of medium sized.

rudeboysaude - 18-9-2009 at 06:52 AM

Bob.

I ride the 19 up to 25 with a smaller board (mako). I don't know how different the charger will be, but I'd bet not too different. On the road and typing on a phone sucks. If this chargers main goal is water, 19 might not be a bad idea. I'm getting a 15 mostly for the upcoming snow season.

Bladerunner - 18-9-2009 at 06:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BeamerBob
I'm curious about the high end penalty for going big instead of medium sized.


Me Too!

I'm only 145lbs and am very happy with my 15. I will get one as my 1st Charger. Seems most usefull to me around here. How much do I give up at the top if I go 19? I expect a good bit.

I fly in tight spaces. The 15 takes up enough room.

I am thinking 15 and 10 for a little guy like me ? Who is my size that knows?

BeamerBob - 18-9-2009 at 10:02 AM

that does it then. When I see guys weighing 70-80 lbs less than me happy with 15m arcs, who am I kidding by getting one for myself for the water when I'm always battling small winds much more than heavy wind anyway. I'm changing my order to a 19m right now. My next purchase might need to be a smaller board but that's on the horizon anyway.

doneski - 18-9-2009 at 11:45 AM

Your posting didn't say if you were getting a V1 or V2 Venom 19.

If you have a V1, you should try a trailing edge tuck (TET) to make it into a V2. You need to sew to do this.

Theres also a mod called "shortened the front strap" (SFS) that make your kite stiffer, powerfull, more reactive, better unhooked. The following is a quote: you'll be able to ride with your rear internal strap full tight, jumps will be floatier and higher in light wind and most important : you'll be able to go upwind in very low wind... You can shorten straps without sewing and remove mod at quickly if you don't like or to adjust for high winds.

For details you can join arcusers in yahoo groups and search on Venom Mods.

tridude - 18-9-2009 at 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BeamerBob
I'm curious about the high end penalty for going big instead of medium sized.


Id say low 20s Bob.....Ive had my 19m SA2 in 17/18 mph winds and it was manageable thru the bar and strap............Ive been to 20/21 kts on my 19m V1 and had no issues..................remember as the wind goes up grab your smaller board....................that will help you manage the kite/siuation and stay upwind.................12mph on a bigger flatter board to low 20s and a 139ish.........................:thumbup::thumbup::puzzled::puzzled:

seblue - 11-5-2010 at 09:58 PM

Thanks for all of these great comments. I just got a 19m PL Venom2 and i was afraid to take it out in the higher winds we have been having around Chicago