Power Kite Forum

Depower Foil or Lei

Jellikin - 21-9-2009 at 11:21 AM

Gonna soon be in the market for somesort of depower kite, what can you guys tell me about the relative merits of a depower foil and a Leading Edge Inflatable. I will be using the kite for ATB. I am 19 stone or 250lbs and want to cruise and eventually jump. I have no experience whatsoever of flying depower kites. Money all of a sudden is no object so it will be a toss up between an Ozone Frenzy or a LEI. I have plenty of experience flying fixed bridles.
Thanks
Andy

ragden - 21-9-2009 at 11:24 AM

Do you plan on going towards water eventually, or is landboarding your one, and only, goal?

If you are heading to water eventually, I would consider getting an LEI, otherwise go foil... Just my thoughts on the matter..

Drewculous - 21-9-2009 at 11:34 AM

as ragden said...
foils=land, &
leis work well on land as well as water..

I'm partial to a PL twinskin... i was about your level and i'm digging my phantom atm... good constant power, good gust muncher, good kite! Plus they too also work on land as well as water... Come to the D'Arc Side!

ragden - 21-9-2009 at 11:40 AM

Yeah, the twinskins are a great option as well. Work in all environments, with some skills that is. I havent flown them much, so I cant really comment too much on them.

I'll just throw this out there for you as well, LEIs slamming into the ground real hard will not be good for the kite. Granted, slamming any kite into the ground isnt good for the kite, but I never liked the idea of having to pump up a kite and the possibility of having a bladder burst on you. Foils are easy to put up, take down, and you dont have to worry about any stinkin pumps. :)

Houston AirHead - 21-9-2009 at 12:25 PM

Get an LEI, you eventuallly going to want to get into the water. and they are much more stable in gusty conditions. but if ou live in a place with smooth wind i guess ge the frenzy for thw quicker set up factor.

ragden - 21-9-2009 at 12:37 PM

I dont know if I agree... If money is no object, I'd get a quiver of Flysurfer kites to use on land and water. With maybe some small LEIs for high wind conditions in the water.

Really, the best recommendation I can give is to get out there and fly some of this stuff and find what you like. Foils might be the best choice for flying on land, but if you just dont like them, then you'd be better off with something you will enjoy flying...

B-Roc - 21-9-2009 at 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jellikin
Money all of a sudden is no object


I'm sorry, I just can't get beyond this sentence :shocked2:

Did I tell you I'm available for adoption and already housebroken? ;-)

tridude - 21-9-2009 at 01:05 PM

Peter Lynn twinskin.....youre new and learning, getting on a landboard (perhaps)etc...............cant beat auto zenith, self launch, and front line release for self landing, emergencies...........your skillz will progress much faster with auto zenith and this kite does cross over to water and snow.................lifty and points upwind well................as for stability in so-so, gusty conditions, nothing comes close................................

snobdr - 21-9-2009 at 01:56 PM

Mostly depends on riding conditions, And being your on the coast your most likely going to have nice smooth wind.
And another decision is if you want to go into the water or not.
If you will eventually go into water, go for an LEI.
If your sticking to land probably flysurfers would be where you want to go.
Peter Lynn Twinskins are nice in really gusty conditions but kinda lack bottom end power.
You might seek out others in your area and check out what they are flying. Maybe test drive a few kites

Drewculous - 21-9-2009 at 02:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tridude
...............cant beat auto zenith................................


well said... auto zenith is great..

With money being no option... clue us in btw.... go grab a new PL charger, they are supposed to be really wicked kites, and perform like a LEI C Kite... no pump tho, and you get zippers.... :lol:

Jellikin - 21-9-2009 at 03:00 PM

:D:D:D:D B-Roc, sorry mate the wife can only put up with one landboarder who trails half the beach into the house and leaves the other half in the front of the car lol. No plans to go on the water just after some feedback really. I suppose the foil guys are gonna say buy a Frenzy and vice versa. Does an LEI work in the same way as a foil as in how its steered, launched and landed? Which is easier to control? My next question is size, i would say in my area more often than not the wind speed falls in the 10-25mph range it can get alot higher though. Given that i weigh 240-250lbs what size LEIs should i go for.

indigo_wolf - 21-9-2009 at 03:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by B-Roc
Did I tell you I'm available for adoption and already housebroken?


That has all the makings of a truly strange Craigslist ad.... err umm wait.... is this board PG rated? ;)

ATB,
Sam

PBKiteboarding - 21-9-2009 at 04:47 PM

Good vid to watch... Flysurfer Speed 3... Landboarding
Ozone are great too.. Just sure you consider your weight and wind speed if you plan to get some floaty air...

Bet you'll like Depower Foils... Like having 2 kites in one...
See how he pulls the bar in at 2:58 to add on some power...

Foils:
leave Lines attached.
Less damage from rubbing and dragging.
Easier self Launch & Land.
Less things to fail... no slow leaks.
Better resale on quality brands.
More available power than any LEI
Lighter, stays in air better in lulls.
So on...

Bladerunner - 21-9-2009 at 04:47 PM

I think that a foil is simpler to launch and land all on your own. Definately faster. A foil may stand up to the learning crashes a bit better than an LEI.
The Frenzy is an O.K. choice but you realize Ozone makes the Access as it's beginer depower. Outlaws by Flysurfer seem beginer friendly. I'm extremely impressed with the SkyCountry ( .ca ) Alasca.

LEI's match up with ATB very well but I think you may want to learn the ropes with a foil if water isn't in the plan.

Don't rule out an arc. For me, it has been the best tool for learning to jump that I have tried. I have NOT tried the newer LEI's.

Kamikuza - 21-9-2009 at 05:17 PM

My vote would be for a PL arc or a Flysurfer, simply cos they cross over nicely between land and water.

Jolt - 21-9-2009 at 10:35 PM

Hijacking this for a bit.

What would you guys recommend for lighter winds around (8-20 mph) on avg?

i know someone suggested a pl Synergy 15m but would LEI's work out better?

arkay - 21-9-2009 at 10:42 PM

I was flying my lei's (9 & 12) this weekend in the buggy and on the landboard in 12-25... was a nice change to have good controllable power. Can't say that I have any good high end depower foils, but I really did enjoy flying the LEIs. If I didn't fly it on water, I'd wouldn't have LEIs and would favor a fly surfer or arc; I don't have one now just due to cost/us. But would love to get into one and the auto-zenith on the PLs is a really nice feature as well. I pretty much see it as a cost/use trade-off.

At 250# in 10-25 for a generic LEI you'd probably be ideally riding a 12-14 in the high-end and a 14-18 in the low-end.

nwsurfwakeskate - 21-9-2009 at 11:53 PM

try before you buy.

everybody loves what they fly but that doesn't necessarily mean you will like it too.

my personal preference is Flysurfer for light and medium wind conditions (below 20mph) and LEI's for everything above that. but you should know, I only ride on the water.

if you are exclusively riding on land then I would say get a twinskin like for instance a Synergy or the new charger as your high wind kite.

small fixed bridles will get you out in higher winds on a landboard too.

honestly....after having lines break and cells blow on flysurfers in high winds. I question how much contrast there is in durability with an LEI. sure a flysurfer doesn't wear out as quickly but in terms of impact vs impact I think foils might actually be more likely to get damaged.

here's why:

when you let go of the bar on a foil kite (reduce the angle of attack) the kite flies faster.

on an LEI when you let go of the bar the kite flies slower because it is no longer creating lift but instead only creating drag.

I fly both so I have experienced this where a foil will tomahawk into the water at warp speed if you crash and the kite is headed that direction. but I have found lei's tend to fall out of the sky when you let go of the bar instead of crashing down hard. Also, most lei's these days have a highly swept back leading edge which means the surface area during impact is much smaller allowing the kite to twist and deform to absorb the impact instead of just blowing up. still though if you hit hard enough the kite can deform enough to split the canopy right down the middle. but that is something that can be fixed in a few hours with some tape and kite fix so its not too big of a deal. besides i think a crash that hard would likely leave you with some blown cells on an ARC or a flysurfer.

I'd say as long as you're not flying over terrain that has sharp shells or sticks you'd be okay with a LEI. grass or snow would seem like the safest surfaces but I would think sand is okay as long as you don't drag it on the ground too much. also if you're around sand a lot its important to keep it from getting in between the fabric and the bladders as it can cause pinholes to form.

Bladerunner - 22-9-2009 at 05:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jolt
Hijacking this for a bit.

What would you guys recommend for lighter winds around (8-20 mph) on avg?

i know someone suggested a pl Synergy 15m but would LEI's work out better?



I think the wind range you suggest is LOW for a Syn. IMHO. More like 12 for a bottom.

Silver Arrows RULE the low wind world.

nwsurfwakeskate - 22-9-2009 at 09:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
Quote:
Originally posted by Jolt
Hijacking this for a bit.

What would you guys recommend for lighter winds around (8-20 mph) on avg?

i know someone suggested a pl Synergy 15m but would LEI's work out better?



I think the wind range you suggest is LOW for a Syn. IMHO. More like 12 for a bottom.

Silver Arrows RULE the low wind world.


for someone 250lbs I would think 19m SA2 and either a 12m Speed 2, 13m Psycho 3, 15m Psycho 4 or 12m Pulse 2 would be a good combo for that wind range


if you're a lighter guy swap out the 19m for a 15m speed2 deluxe

Jolt - 22-9-2009 at 04:08 PM

I personally weigh about 180 lbs, and its gonna be shared with Trancein1, who's a bit lighter than i am.

so 15m SA2, or something along those lines?

How do the psycho's handle low winds?

nwsurfwakeskate - 22-9-2009 at 05:07 PM

15m SA2's are sweet kites. I have never flown one but based off of what I have seen they seem like the best kite flysurfer has made up until before the speed 3.

I didn't think the P4's made good light wind kites.

with my 15m P4 I had to have at least 15mph winds to start having fun on it. Anything below 18mph was really really hard to stay up wind in. I'm 180lbs and ride a 132lunacy which has been nick named "the mini glide" because it planes so early and upwinds so well.

I tried the 19m P4 Deluxe edition as well and found it didn't have much more low end then the 15m simply because it was so much slower.

P4's jump higher and turn faster but really...I feel like it kinda defeats the purpose to have a fast turning kite if its still too big to kiteloop. Speed 2's glide and upwind much better and really have the low end grunt you need to get moving in light winds.

I would say Speed 2 SA as first choice then maybe a Psycho 3 as second choice since it was still a grunty kite but it didn't have the upwind of the speed 2. and then the P4 would be my last choice for light wind. Don't get me wrong the P4 15m is an awesome kite and I often miss mine. it just needs more wind to have fun on.

syuzhak - 22-9-2009 at 06:09 PM

Jolt, you and trancein fly on land, right? I wouldn't get a Speed2 for land kiting. The inland winds I myself get, are really gusty and shifty... I fly in a small field behind a school, so the wind often goes down to where the kite barely flies and gusts 20 mph more:shocked2: I used to fly my 12m Speed2 on a landboard in those conditions but really it was just too much of a pain. Constant overflying and tip collapse. On the water however the Speed2 is a magical kite but I hate flying it at my field.

I tried my new 13m PL Venom, a few days ago when the wind was around 15 mph. I liked it much more. It sits way deeper in the window, so it doesn't overfly too much, and the inefficiency helps when the crazy gusts come. The setup time sucks and the low-end does also, but the stability is very nice.

If I were you I would get a bigger bow kite (10-12m), or an arc. What do you want to ultimately ride on? Water, Snow, or Land?

Jolt - 22-9-2009 at 09:04 PM

Well with winter coming up I'm shooting for snow for now, but i know Trancein1 eventually wants to get out on the water and so do I. But just reading through all this information is just confusing at times.

How do you think this would work out for what we want?

A 2006 Flexifoil Ion, selling at $199.

im kinda hesitant because its selling really cheaply, but i think it might work.

pretite - 22-9-2009 at 09:21 PM

Hi,i own an auto zenith. And for me,no product can reach its level.



Regards,
pretite
http://placementfinancier.net

Jolt - 22-9-2009 at 09:23 PM

I agree the auto-zenith is a great feature, but kinda useless when the kite doesn't get off the ground too often.

nwsurfwakeskate - 22-9-2009 at 09:39 PM

wow that ion is cheap.

I'm not sure about the older or the bigger ions but I know the ION 3 in smaller sizes is a really sweet kite.

I'd probably go for something newer if possible. if I remember correctly 2006 was the first year the bow kite came out and I don't think very many companys had the design quite figured out yet.

best for example is known for having the worst bow kite ever. the 2006 waroo

the slingshot link is right in there with it too.

if I were you I would probably try and get something in the 12-14m range and 2007 or newer.

nwsurfwakeskate - 22-9-2009 at 09:43 PM

on the other hand.

kiteworldmag.com really seems to like the 2006 15m ion and they are usually pretty good about writing unbiased reviews.

here's the link to the review
http://www.kiteworldmag.com/2006-kite-tests/flexifoil-ion/

for the price it can't be beat. let us know how it goes :wink2:

Jolt - 22-9-2009 at 09:54 PM

My only remaining question is how this thing is gonna handle in the not so windy city :/...

nwsurfwakeskate - 22-9-2009 at 10:06 PM

might just have to buy it and try it.

I've been considering picking up a big tube kite as well. I've had a few really crappy times having to swim back on foils when the wind dies or something gets tangled or breaks.

i've been really curious about the new Ozone Zephyr 17m

Jolt - 22-9-2009 at 10:15 PM

Meh, ill discuss this through with trancein1 tomorrow and see if he's ready for this kite, i think i am. from the reviews I've been reading its good for jumps and what not in about 12mph winds on the water, int eh winter I'm hoping it proves to be just as fun on snow.