DaveH - 14-4-2005 at 01:28 PM
I'm a dork. This is my first post here and I'm a dork. I've got thousands of dollars worth of trick kites and I'm pretty good with them too. but
recently on a trip to the beach I bought a 3.6 Beamer kind of on a lark and now all I can think about is flying and obaining all manner of
powerkiting gear. No thoughts of cascading backspins or wicked combos, I just want to experience the thrill of the wind in this new way. What a dork!
I want a buggy and a couple of different sizes of kites. I'm thinking a 2.0 and 5.0 Ozone Sams to go along with the beamer. Any startup advice for
me?
Thanks!
Dave
jimmy - 14-4-2005 at 04:26 PM
Personally I think one of the first things somebody just starting out should decide on is do they want to test the waters so to speak by picking up a
starter kite (used maybe or a cheapy) and just about any cheap buggy. Or if they already have their mind made up about getting into the sport, get
the good stuff. And then if you are going to start off with the good stuff, how many kites can you start off with. That will determine which sizes
to get. If you have to start off with just 1, then maybe something in the range of a 3-5, also taking into consideration the winds that you will most
likely be encountering. If getting 2 kites to start of with, probably a 3 and a 5. If at all possible though test fly some various kites
DaveH - 14-4-2005 at 04:32 PM
Good point. I've already got the 3.6 beamer, so I thought the 2 Ozones would round out the size range. As far as testing the waters I'm afraid I'm
badly hooked already! I get pretty fair wind for an inlander and there is quite a bit of open space around so I thought this would be a good area for
buggies. The main thing I need to know is which buggy to start out with. Also, Since I've flown quads for years should I stick to handles?
Thanks for the reply!
Dave
jimmy - 14-4-2005 at 08:25 PM
As far as buggies go, what I personally find to be really important are 2 things, being able to stay in the buggy and comfort. High side support is
helpful to stay in the buggy if you like flying pretty powered up. And since I like to ride for hours, it has to be comfortable.
A big consideration though is whether you want to gain optimum speeds or to do some freestyling. For racing or to go fast in long open areas, a heavy
buggy, wide rear axle such as a libre is great and for freestyling, something light and with a shorter back axle such as a flexifoil or Peter Lynn
work better. Not that you can't race in a flexifoil or do tricks in a libre, but it's a bit tougher.
As far as handles go, why restrict yourself to just handles. I have only flown sheetable kites on a bar a couple of times. I'm not convinced myself
to convert everything over to that (yet), but they do have some very good points. If I were to be just starting out or wanting to add to my quiver, I
would give them a good looking over.
welcome to the addiction :frog:
DaveH - 15-4-2005 at 07:10 AM
I've been thinking of that too. It seems sheetable kites is a better term for the novice than depowerable since the implication can be misleading. I
have read some compelling arguements for their use. One thing I don't undertand yet is the influence a depowering system has over kite size for a
given wind. Some say you can "depower" a kite down 2 sizes which means you can run a larger sail safely in a higher wind. To me, that says a 5 meter
kite would be more versitile. Still, I'm not sure that's what sheeting is for. Can you clear this up?
jimmy - 15-4-2005 at 09:05 AM
My understanding anyway (as limited as it is) is also what you have heard in regards to depowering down a couple of sizes. This does versify your
kites to a bigger wind range, meaning not having to have as many kites. And it is kind of nice too that as the wind changes thru-out your session,
the need to change kites deminishes.
Plus that, is the ability to turn the power on without having to sweep your kite in a sinewave motion. This advantage became apparent at a
non-running start race that I was at. The big arc sheetable kites are able to just sit there waiting for the start, dip down a little, turn on the
power and off they go. While the wing kites were basically blocked out of being able to shoot the hole and had some making up to do. I still believe
the wing kites are faster, but certaintly not all share that opinion. And I might add too that the new jojo sheetable kite got some great reviews
from the jojo team riders. They seemed quite pleased with it.
DaveH - 15-4-2005 at 09:35 AM
I've been researching the Ozone Frenzy 05 in the 5 meter size. That looks like a good, versitile kite. What do you think? I'm excited by your last
post in that it makes me think getting this type of kite would be safer and have some performance advantages as well. It would be a great choice for
land baording as well.
jimmy - 15-4-2005 at 09:49 AM
The frenzy is a very good kite. But unless you have some fairly strong winds (12-15+) you might want to consider the next size up, which I think is a
7.5m. A 5 frenzy in the same wind will not have as much power as a 5m wing. They are just shaped differently. You will be able to fly and even
buggy in lower winds than that, but you will be underpowered. It might be hard to find some info on the jojo sheetable, but it could be worth your
while to check that one out too before buying. Also the Peter Lynn arch kites are worth looking into. You really can't go wrong with any of these 3
and I'm sure there are others just as noteworthy. It basically comes down to personnal choice (and money of course)
Scoopy - 19-4-2005 at 07:40 PM
Sorry to come in late on this one, but basically a sheetable kite allows you to change the angle of attack. Your pretty much changing the angle the
kite flies into the wind. When the kite is sheeted out, the kite flies faster and makes less power, when sheeted in, it slows down and pulls much
harder. Jimmy's assumption is right though, a frenzy in the 5m range is way small for a de-power kite. Not only do de-powers drop down a couple of
sizes when de-powered, they start a few sizes down on power as well. I can't say exactly for sure, but a 5m frenzy may power up to a 3m fixed bridle
kite, and down to a 1.5meter. Most de-power kites are hugely innefecient (cant spell, sorry). Thats part of the trade off you get for going
de-power. I could see flying the 5m frenzy in 15 up to probably 30+ depending on weight and rider exprience. This really is a high wind kite. One
thing about your beamer. It is a lower quality kite. Not a bad kite mind you, but if your about to get serious about power kites, There are a few
good companies you will want to stay with. Ozone is excellent. Build quality second to none, but tied with a few. Gin, JoJo, Macpara are all very
close sedonds on build quality. Flexifoil is so close it doesnt matter. Again, depending on what you are looking for. The Samurai is a lower
performand level of kite, but is very stable. The Razor is a full on race kite but needs good clean wind to get the best out of it. You will find
most inland winds are rather dirty, but I see you are close to a beach, so you will have that option. Something else to think about is lift. Do you
want it or not. If you will only be buggying, then lift is not so good unless you want to eventually get into freestyle, or maybe even buggy jumping.
You will not get off the ground with a buggy specific kite. We can talk days on kite selection depending on what you are looking for. Lets get what
you want first before we go on.
Scoop
teklife - 20-4-2005 at 03:46 AM
hi fellow dork, i'm a relative newcomer to kite powered sports, however, having caught the kite fever really hard, i now have a quiver of 5 power
kites between my girl and i, and enough experience to contribute to this discussion.
i started with a 3m ozone little devil. fierce little kite! kicked my ass (and of my friends) all over the place. i thought that because it only a 3m
that it would be just a silly little kite to fly and get my chops up. i was wrong, it is a very worthy kite and produces good amounts of power in
winds over 10mph.
my next kite was a 7.3M ozone frenzy, a de-powerable kite. this one made me nervous the first time i took it out. the winds were 12-18mph and i had
just seen an experienced kite flyer get dragged around overpowered in an LEI (inflatable). i was fortunate to have had other kiters there to test it
out for me before i got a chance to fly it myself. it turns out that the power generated through the frenzy was way more manageable than with the
fixed bridle 3M LD. it was easy to fly, and i never felt overpowered or dragged around on my face like i had so many times before with the LD.
i believe that the 7.3 frenzy will depower to what feels like a much smaller kite than the 3M LD. i would even dare to say that, fully depowered, it
feels like a 1.5 to 2M kite. i now consider the 3M LD practically useless, since the frenzy overlaps its power zone completely, and has such nice
safety features and stability.
i will still take out the LD at least once more just to compare side by side which is faster. the LD is much more manueverable, and quicker across the
window, while the frenzy is a big, lumbering, much less responsive kite. it is not as fun to fly statically, but when you're moving, the stability is
very nice, you can focus more on what you're doing rather than flying the kite. this, for me, is great, but i do like speed, so there may be
a place for the LD in my quiver after all. it remains to be seen if it indeed is faster. i hope not, so i can sell it and use that money towards some
other piece of gear, and also have one less kite, as they are stacking up in my small space.
my next 2 kites came as a pair. peter lynn phantoms, 15 & 18M. wow, these are big kites. having been so overpowered by a 3m kite as recently as
this past winter, before getting the frenzy, i didn't think i'd be flying anything this big anytime soon, especially since i don't kiteboard, yet.
while these kites sound, and are, huge, the flat, or projected area is not that big, i would say they're maybe like 10-12M LEI's as far as power, and
i'm guessing it translates to about a 5-7M fixed bridle.
these are my newset toys, as such, i've not yet had time to play with them much, but the one time i did fly them in light winds, the 15 did not pull
as much as i'd expected, even under full power; and the 18 wouldn't even launch! the winds were light but we were on the coast and they were blowing
steadily, over 6mph for sure. i figured these huge phantoms would be my low wind kites, but i think i may have been able to get about the same amount
of power, if not more, if i had the 3M LD out and was working it that day. **shrug**
i know, it sounds impossible, and to be fair, i did not have all of my kites out to compare side by side. i'm just going by recalling past experiences
in a variety of winds with the different kites i own.
i also now have a 3M samurai, which is clearly faster, and less stable than the LD, and also required more tuning to get it to fly right out of the
bag, unlike the LD which was perfectly 'tuned'. this kite too has put both me and my girl on our face with the amount of power it produced as it flew
across the center of the window.
the point is, i like my depowerable foils very much, but there's something to be said for the smaller fixed bridle kites. they are quick and fun,
produce a lot of power for their size, and are much cheaper.
if all you plan on doing is buggying, or maybe even some snow stuff, either skiing or boarding, and you're considering the frenzy, i say go for it.
you WILL NOT be disappointed. i'm always doing research, and reading all the reviews i can about kites, and i have found very little negative feedback
about them. mostly ppl will list a pros and cons, and the cons mainly being slow turning, which has improved very much on the 05's i have flown this
past winter. besides, from my own experience, i am very pleased with the overall quality of ozone's kites.
if i may recommend a quiver for your powerkiting activities, it would be a 7.3 for your high wind kite, as it will depower down to a small high wind
kite, and a 14M for light winds. i have flown 10 and 12M fenzy's, and i think even the 12 overlaps the 7.3 when fully de-powered, so go for the full
size and you'll be set for light winds all the way to... well, to put it this way; between the 2, you will have a kite for winds from 5 to 25+ mph...
all you need.
any winds less, or more than that, you don't even want to f*** with, or do you?
DaveH - 20-4-2005 at 09:09 AM
Interesting! Thanks guys, tons of good info. Scoop, since starting this thread I've done a bit of research and studied lots of videos. I am also
(maybe more so) interested in land boarding. The Beamer was an introduction into this part of the sport. Its actually a blast to fly around. But for
traction purposes, I will need something better. I have decided to go with the Frenzy 7 meter for starters, and a Flight lite board from Ground
Industries. All I read about depowerable kites made them seem perfect for my needs. Tek, thanks for confirming my assumptions. As for the buggy,
I'll probably go with, actually I dont know, but at this point I want to get the kites. I am looking for a bit of lift. I would like to do small
jumps with the board and some basic tricks. there is a good place to do that pretty close to my house. back to the Beamer: its not at all scary to
fly. I find I like to fly in lower winds inland as they tend to be smoother/steadier. In fact, I ordered the 5 meter Beamer to tide me over until I
can get the Frenzy. So my plan for just flying is bigger kites in lower winds. I also fly trick kites lots and have done so for many years. this
power thing, though, simply can't be ignored!
dave
Scoopy - 20-4-2005 at 12:23 PM
I agree Dave, power kites are like a good drug. You will go out to fly sometime, get faceplanted, drug down the field and hurt, and in the back of
your mind your thinking, "why isnt this thing pulling any harder?" Very strange indeed. Hey Tek-you think you like the smaller fixed bridle kites,
you should have a go on an 8.5m blade 3. You talk about something awe inspiring. I had my 10.5 out today in winds from about 5 to 15. Anything over
10 and it starts to get pretty scary when the kite is moving. You are pretty much okay until it gets going. You really have to baby it. Oh yea, for
the non-belivers, I tip the scales at 300lbs. There is much to be said for weight, as well as experience. I handle overpowered situations very well.
I would not condone the average flyer to attempt to fly the 10.5 Blade in these kind of winds. Anyway, if you want de-power, you cant beat a frenzy
unless its with a Sabre. Build quality of both are great, and from what Im reading the Sabre is just a little more refinded, little more speed, and a
little better turning, but both seem to produce about the same power. (the 05 frenzy anyway) I try not to pimp my shop too much, but if your ready
to order something, let me know, I can probably get you a pretty good deal on it. Just something to keep in mind, always be sure of the windspeed and
be safe. Wear your safety equipment. Your about to get into the big boys arena where you can get badly hurt. You would have to be in some silly
wind to get badly hurt with your beamer. Not so with some of the bigger kites. Oh yea, welcome aboard.
Scoop
teklife - 20-4-2005 at 11:02 PM
scoopy, just curious, where in WV do you do stuff? do you buggy?
i've been on mountaintops in wv, around masontown flying kites, and the wind drove me nuts. (3 weekends summer '04) first it was blowing then it
wasn't then it was, then it wasn't again, then a great big gust to launch you 200 meters... it was bananas!
had i had my depowerable kites, it might have actually been fun.
mykl
Scoopy - 21-4-2005 at 12:47 PM
I live just about 15 miles north of Charleston. I fly some places around charleston, and there are a few places about 20 miles north of home. One
placs is a private airport on top of a ridge. Grass runway about 2000 feet long, and about 200 feet wide. It always has a crosswind. Great place to
buggy. I really should update my sig. I have a flexi wide axle with wide wheels, and also have a 2nd gen flexdeck, although Im just learning to
board. Im seriously thinking about adding a complete set of Sabres. Still have some research to do. Im also going back and forth on those and about
3 sizes of venoms. Im just not sure I want the setup/takedown of these arcs. There is a kite fest coming up in August at Canaan Valley. Wings over
Washington put it on. You should think about coming. There will be 3 of us there with buggys that I know of so far.
Scoop
going off topic a bit, but...
teklife - 22-4-2005 at 03:39 AM
hey scoop, i'm in nyc. wv is quite a trek, but send me some info if you can, you never know.
you never mentioned anything about the winds, what's your luck with them?
also, i'm curious about your comment "Im just not sure I want the setup/takedown of these arcs", do you find the process of setting them up to be very
time consuming and/or a nuisance?
my 2 'new' phantoms have no lines/bar, i'm wondering if i can, or want to, use my 55cm frenzy bar/lines with them, or buy a set of bar/lines for each,
so they're set up already, and maybe better fitted.
mykl
Scoopy - 22-4-2005 at 08:56 AM
You just have to know where to go in WV to get the good clean winds. I have no problems finding them now. And it also depends on which direction its
blowing. Some sites are better when the wind is blowing a certain direction.
Arcs-
You have to have the spars in them. YOu have to pre-inflate them. You have to attach and disconnect the lines each time you use them. I think I
would just rather pop it out of the bag, stake the bar, unfold the kite and fly. Seems there is much more to flying arcs.
You can use any de-power bar setup you like witth your arcs. Any will work just fine. The kite doesnt know whats on the other end of the lines. Im
really leaning more toward the Sabres from Flexifoil. Im a fan.
Scoop
DaveH - 26-4-2005 at 09:05 AM
Guys,
This is great information! Yes, I will wear all my safety equipment. I have settled on the 7.3m Frenzy to start with. It will be winter before I
can afford it (I believe in saving and sticking to budgets....) Until then, I'll practice with my 3.6m and 5m Beamers. I think I'll start with a
buggy and then possibly move into land boarding and kite snowbaording. thanks again for all the help!
Dave
jimmy - 26-4-2005 at 09:43 AM
Sounds great there Dave, best of luck to ya. I have a hunch though that if you keep playing with the beamers, that come winter when you are ready to
get a frenzy, you will be wanting just a bit bigger than the 7.3... *smile* We'll see :singing: keep in touch.
Enjoy,
Jimmy
Kite fever...
Classair - 8-6-2005 at 08:57 PM
I just walked into a store in Daytona and bought one of each
93kitedevil - 13-8-2005 at 03:10 PM
stick with the 3.6 beamer and get a 4m one so u have a choice depending on the wind and if ya going o go buying a buggie make sure its rite for you .
if u canbefor u start buggying get some instruchen of a pro then youl be on the rite tracks
DaveH - 9-11-2005 at 08:12 PM
ok, I haven't been on here for a very long time. I did purchase the 7m Frenzy and I love it. Very smooth. The depower system works great. I got a
landboard which is great for the coast but scary inland, gusts and all. Still want a buggy. Odd........ since getting the Frenzy the Beamers haven't
seen much air time. The 7m seems to work in a fairly wide wind range. Its actually been a pretty good jumping kite, too.
Bucky - 28-3-2006 at 10:01 AM
Hey DaveH:
Lots of great comments (Scoopy's defininately in-the-know) The one thing to keep in mind however, is that square meter by itself is a very poor
indicator of potential power, even within fixed bridle kites. a 6m Radsail will pull with about 1/3 of the power of my 5.5 Ozone Razor.
Concerning, your buggy question, Libras are NICE!! Big, heavy, and stabile. They feel like you're sitting in the frame of a car. Drawbacks: BIG
$$$$$, plus there not that great freestyling, or just goofing around on the dunes. (rode some, wished I could afford one)
I do have several flexifoil sports. The best thing is they're inexpensive. (I bought one used on ebay for $170!!) They're light and nimble- great
for goofing around and freestyling. Drawbacks: First there is little side support, so you don't feel very secure in it. Secondly, with stock
wheels, these things just LOVE flip over and any good speed. Scares the hell out of me!!
Luckily though, I've found a solution to both issues. First I constructed an inexpenvive ($40 or less) combination side and back support (removable),
which gives me a much more secure fit into the buggy ( I'll be putting the plans on this forum soon), and secondly, I opted for wide flat tires on the
rear (Flexifoil sells them, but you can go to any big tire store (Les Schwab Tires) and get them. These are not the Bigfoot tires. They are the same
diameter as the standard ones, just much wider, and with a flat tread surface, not rounded (think of tiny car tires) With slightly longer bolts, as
well as half inch spacers on each side, my buggies are rock solid. I've been able to powerslide at 25mph + completely sideways on hard packed sand!!
Les Schwab sell these tires for about $25 each. I can send you a diagram and parts list if you want.
So with a flexifoil sport, about $100, and a little bit of time, you can create a nimble light buggy that feels stable and secure. O.K., it will
never be a Libre, its not trying to be. Its just trying (successfully) to overcome some of the smaller buggy's weaknesses.
Let me know if your interested