Power Kite Forum - Bad memories rising to surface

Bad memories rising to surface

WolfWolfee - 9-11-2009 at 11:19 AM

I see changes happening to the site that remind me of another site I use to hang out on. To the best of my understanding, a war was going on between two groups and the web site became the causality and a lot of friends were lost.
One of the big beef was businesses selling and promoting on the site.
I don't know the whole story and really at this point don't want to. Everyone has their side to the story and they are right and the other wrong. The realty is the damage was done and now I wonder if this site is the next causality.
It's nice to be able to see whats going on and be able to find sellers as around here we really have nothing available.
Just maybe we should have a commercial forum so there is no confusion and no hard feelings starting to fester below the surface. PKF is a great forum, would hate to lose it.

bison - 9-11-2009 at 11:50 AM

There has been PLENTY of knock down, drag out fights on this forum! FISLY anyone!!!

The site has survived and will continue to do so. This happens almost every winter. Someone says something that is taken the wrong way or blown completely out of proportion. Nothing new here!

So move along and spring will be here soon.

WolfWolfee - 9-11-2009 at 12:07 PM

Like I said if a commercial enterprise wants to promote their site do it up front. Better for everyone. Posting a cut and paste from a commercial web site is lame to say the least.
Keep it clear and clean.

BeamerBob - 9-11-2009 at 12:32 PM

I've had a dimming view of this forum for the last several months myself. The argumentative tone that pervades many threads just wears me down. I really enjoy discussing kites/equipment/techniques even when we disagree with each other as long as its based on positive experience, but the personal attacks and arguing in a manner that is insulting to those involved is pushing me away. I don't have an equal replacement for this forum and this is the most common spot for all my kiting friends, but lately I find it easier to go longer periods of time without "checking in". I've voiced my opinion strongly multiple times but the behavior doesn't change. I wish there was a "block" utility like facebook has and that might help me just avoid the strife that seems to be pushing me away lately. This forum has been a part of my kiting life for 2 1/2 years now. I don't like the way its changing.

coreykite - 9-11-2009 at 01:18 PM

Hey Sailors,
I too have seen good sites come and go.
I fondly recall the beginnings at >rec.kites<

So what do we do?
To save and preserve?

I know that doing nothing is the wrong choice.
Just because each one of us can do only a little is no reason not to work together and accomplish what we want.
I am tired of the loud, ignorant screechers sucking the joy out of our lives.

I refuse to allow them to win.
I refuse to rise to their troll/bait.
If ridicule stops working, I'll have to resort to harsher measures.
I'll ignore them.

"If we want to live in that world...
WE have to be the people"

or if that doesn't suit you...

"We are waiting for them to return...
and take us home to the windy planet"

Changing our world can come from within or without.
It really is our choice.

Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

kitejumper - 9-11-2009 at 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
I've had a dimming view of this forum for the last several months myself. The argumentative tone that pervades many threads just wears me down. I really enjoy discussing kites/equipment/techniques even when we disagree with each other as long as its based on positive experience, but the personal attacks and arguing in a manner that is insulting to those involved is pushing me away. I don't have an equal replacement for this forum and this is the most common spot for all my kiting friends, but lately I find it easier to go longer periods of time without "checking in". I've voiced my opinion strongly multiple times but the behavior doesn't change. I wish there was a "block" utility like facebook has and that might help me just avoid the strife that seems to be pushing me away lately. This forum has been a part of my kiting life for 2 1/2 years now. I don't like the way its changing.

i agree--my future participation will be limited to hunting down info i need --im through with this forum :thumbdown:

B-Roc - 9-11-2009 at 01:37 PM

I must not read or pay attention to enough of the threads as I haven't really noticed any change or negative vibe at all.

I still find this forum to be one of the most friendly and enjoyable kiting forums around. So what if PKF, like every other family has a crazy uncle and dysfunctional in-law.

I choose to self-censor by not reading the posts / threads / posters that don't interest me. I certainly hope we don't go the way of other forums and I believe that some of the forums I have belonged to, self-imploded when a few members repeatedly posted about how bad things were becoming.

I am not directing that criticism at WW or BB but do want to prevent negative, self-fulfilling prophecies from coming true. If everybody sits around talking about how bad things are, soon everybody thinks things are bad and my guess is the majority of the people who still come here, come here because they like the forum for what it is. Its the admins and the users will make the forum exactly what it is, and I at least, think it is very good!

ripsessionkites - 9-11-2009 at 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WolfWolfee
I see changes happening to the site that remind me of another site I use to hang out on. To the best of my understanding, a war was going on between two groups and the web site became the causality and a lot of friends were lost.
One of the big beef was businesses selling and promoting on the site.
I don't know the whole story and really at this point don't want to. Everyone has their side to the story and they are right and the other wrong. The realty is the damage was done and now I wonder if this site is the next causality.
It's nice to be able to see whats going on and be able to find sellers as around here we really have nothing available.
Just maybe we should have a commercial forum so there is no confusion and no hard feelings starting to fester below the surface. PKF is a great forum, would hate to lose it.

skypilot was suppose to be a forum only, about kitesurfing. than they decided to turn it into an online shop running out a juice storefront. only skypilot crew could post about sales they were having and no other shop / retailer could post. if you tried to post the latest and greatest product that SP didnt carry it was deleted or you were a retail offer a promo sale, it was deleted.

PKF is different completely. its just a kite forum with no hidden agenda(s), a place to chat and find out things.

without retailers on forums, there wouldnt be half the knowledge / information thats been given out.
yes, im a retailer, and post stuff for sale, and let people know what new in the market not just from my companies we distribute but anything and everything in the kite world.
there are some shops that just want to use forums to promote and others that also provide excellent information to the general community.
if PKF ever asked for money to keep this site up, i would do so in a heart beat with asking nothing in return.

110% about promoting the sport and making a profit last. anyone in our little Vancouver, BC group will tell you that.

if anyone has issues with me posting, let me know and ill walk away.

Houston AirHead - 9-11-2009 at 01:48 PM

PKF is like an easy X-girl friend, your always comming back for more :thumbup:

flyboy15 - 9-11-2009 at 02:03 PM

wow, I guess i didn't notice the nasty stuff was a problem until now. If someone gets in my face, I just ignore it. There will always be that jerk on a forum who either thinks he knows everything, or realizes he doesnt know everything and decides to mess with your mind and ideas instead (to feel sweet inside i suppose).

I actually like this forum and suggest it to our club members hunting answers.

Just something to think about, but those who like to get their argue on, if you feel like being a d*** back to a d*** then we have a forum full of.... you get the idea lol. Nobody wants that...

WolfWolfee - 9-11-2009 at 02:13 PM

My point Rip is if your a commercial operator you do have insights to new stuff and thats great. The point I'm trying to get across (not directed specifically at you) is lets have a forum for that and not put it into the general posts. That as you say is what caused the riff that tore apart Sky Pilot.
Isn't that why you started your own web site?

ripsessionkites - 9-11-2009 at 02:25 PM

i funded Power Kite Canada (land)the second SP died, and the guys at Airtimes started Kitesurf BC (water). so if you lived in canada wanted to talk about kites as you could there, i pay the bills but i also dont ad my company or anyone else. PKBoarding is on there too, there was a few more. if you own a shop post there no one will stop you, unless its spam.

we had a section for merchants only however that fuels most shops to post everything there only.

i personally try to put News in the subject line, expect for the "Vapor Nation" because I've been waiting for my series for awhile and got overly excited that others could get theirs now too.

shehatesmyhobbies - 9-11-2009 at 02:39 PM

I am fairly new to this forum, but I love it! I do see the arguments that go on, and it is always just difference of opinions, and you know we all have one of those. I choose to read some of the arguments, but also choose not to try and put in my two cents!. I think that sometimes if you just try and remember the PKF quidelines, it would simply come down to not posting unless you have a clear perspective about the subject, or can add helpful information to the discussion at hand.Not attack someone because they have a different opinion about a kite or board or buggy or a flying spot. I have not had any issues my self and would quickly steer away from any lash outs at me.

I came here to learn more about kiting and continue to learn on a daily basis. I only input when I feel that I can add something positive! This site will be fine if we just remember that we all love this sport and choose to share it with our friends, family and strangers alike.

Happy winds to all!

Houston AirHead - 9-11-2009 at 02:44 PM

shehatesmyhobbies hit it right one the head of the nail

shehatesmyhobbies - 9-11-2009 at 02:45 PM

Thanks houston!

jellis - 9-11-2009 at 03:33 PM

What arguments, disagreements, product bashing, event bashing, personal pilot bashing, other forums bashing, etc, etc are you talking about?:wow:

Houston AirHead - 9-11-2009 at 03:54 PM

why ask?

Using four sevens (7) and a one (1) create the number 100. Except the five numerals you can use the usual mathematical operations (+, -, x,

, root and brackets ().

macboy - 9-11-2009 at 03:58 PM

Good one!

177-77=100?

macboy - 9-11-2009 at 04:01 PM

....ah....I feel like a phony....I Googled it.

Banned for life.:singing:

Life's so much more fulfilling when you work at it's challenges and come to your own answer.

Here's one: If I've got a bumblebee in my right hand, what is in my eye?

(Sorry for the hijack Wolfee, just playin' around due to my boredom. I do hear what you're saying but choose to ignore it. I chimed in once and will leave it at that.)

lad - 9-11-2009 at 04:01 PM

Guys, guys, guys...in the end, it's all little pixels on the screen...just electrons...and recycled ones at that!!!!

:karate:

soccerflyer - 9-11-2009 at 04:06 PM

Ya know, I haven't been on this forum long either, but I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT!!!

Sorry Wolf, but I don't see anything wrong with the way it is run with the loose rules about not endorsing any retailers, but allowing them to freely post. I enjoy hearing their info and prices and sales etc . . . . It helps me out a lot. I would be upset if they were limited more.

BeamerBob I would also be upset if you or anyone else left because of a few loudmouths or "heat of the moment posts". Please rise above it with the rest of us. Just keep up doing what we've been doing and that balogne will pass in time. You have 2,657 posts for cyring out loud. And each one of them was helpful to someone in some way. We can't lose that voice of reason. Think of all the people that would miss out on that.

And Kudos to the PKF staff for being the steady voice of reason through it all. They don't get excited and just pop in and put out fires when needed.

Thanks to all for all the help I have recieved and thanks for putting up with all my annoying questiions!!! Keep it up PKF - Don't go changin!!!!

WELDNGOD - 9-11-2009 at 04:27 PM

"BB, please don't go. The forum would be much less without you. You always have the more layed back way of helping noobs. Or anyone else for that matter. Kind of fatherly in a way. just stay away from the drama, so it doesn't bug you.
WG

soccerflyer - 9-11-2009 at 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WELDNGOD
"BB, please don't go. The forum would be much less without you. You always have the more layed back way of helping noobs. Or anyone else for that matter. Kind of fatherly in a way. just stay away from the drama, so it doesn't bug you.
WG

----

And that goes for everyone else too!!!

WolfWolfee - 9-11-2009 at 05:22 PM

What would be wrong with retailers posting to their own section of PKF? It's not a big deal and as you could go to that spot and find all that info. You wouldn't have to search around you'd know where it was. These guys have been great, sharing information and getting us parts supplies etc. Just give them a spot where we can find them easily.

krumly - 9-11-2009 at 06:07 PM

What's the big deal? There is a link to 'Rules' for use of the forum. Read them and follow them.

I value the input from folks like Rip, Angus, Kent, Jellis, Powerzone and numerous others who also have a commercial interest in kites and products. And I learn to read between the lines - take what I want and leave the rest.

Tirades and flaming arguments about which is better - foils, FB, depower, Arcs, LEI C or bow, sparred, NPW? Or between brands? Cmon - lighten up. They are all on the market - half the fun is figuriong out why they work for some things and not others. (of course look at my quiver - I don't play favorites...).

Read and learn, fly and learn, and learn to read between the lines to distinguish hyperbole from truth.

krumly

Kamikuza - 9-11-2009 at 06:33 PM

I see your point WolfWoolee and kind of agree ... I greatly prefer to support the 'local' retailers here but it's kind of difficult to know who's got a shop or not, specially if you're new here - cos of the great, laid back style we got going on :thumbup:

The problem I foresee with a separate forum for commercial stuff is it may end up flooded with stuff from people who just join up to pimp their shop ... that'd clog up the "Today's Posts" button and hack me off :D

pbc - 9-11-2009 at 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WolfWolfee
What would be wrong with retailers posting to their own section of PKF? It's not a big deal and as you could go to that spot and find all that info. You wouldn't have to search around you'd know where it was. These guys have been great, sharing information and getting us parts supplies etc. Just give them a spot where we can find them easily.

For the retailers on this forum I think most of their posts are not clearly commercial or non-commercial. Let's take Rip for instance. He sells PL gear, he flies PL gear. So if he answers a question about PL gear is he promoting his product or providing information? I argue it's both and I'm OK with that. I have no desire to create a rule or practice that might relegate informational posts to the only forum where promotion is deemed "OK".

As for people who are selling things, we have the "For Sale" forum for that. 99% of the postings there are short and to the point. Curiously, even there you don't see promotion. Most posts are just "I have this in such and such condition, for this much. Send me a U2U." It's friggin' awesome!

I assert it's not broken and we shouldn't try to fix it.

Philip

BeamerBob - 9-11-2009 at 06:46 PM

Ok, here's to the future. Thanks for appreciating me guys. I never thought about my presence here from that perspective. There isn't anywhere else nearly as good to go anyway. I'm not sure I could stop coming here even if I decided to. My new approach to avoid the stress that I get from certain opinionated members will be to act as if that poster was blocked and those posts didn't even appear in front of me. I've never enjoyed any altercation on here, win, lose or draw. Private or public. So, I'll go with that old saying ...... "Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference". You guys don't hesitate to remind me if I need it.

On the commercial post side of things, I really don't have a beef with any of the non-spam posts. I'll clarify. I don't have a problem with any posts from shop owners that are regular posters here. They are quite valuable to the forum in many ways and keep us informed about products, sales and bargains on demo items. That's a hooj benefit to us all. Lets not mess that up either.

EDIT: To add perspective, I realize now at the end of the day what an emotional roller coaster life has had me on today. I was probably a little too negative and dramatic, but it's all good now. I'm still gonna stick to my new plan as mentioned above though.

Bladerunner - 9-11-2009 at 06:50 PM

I changed my signature when I decided to get behind Ripsession to keep it clear that I had joined forces. Part of the deal was that I try to fly + report honestly on all brands. It has influenced what kites are available , thus my opinion somewhat.

I am pretty sure that a similar suggestion came up before. I like the idea that a member should make it clear in their sig. that they are affiliated to a shop.

I think I have gotten wrapped up in some of the negative threads and am sorry I have encouraged them. :sniff:

heliboy50 - 10-11-2009 at 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
I changed my signature when I decided to get behind Ripsession to keep it clear that I had joined forces. Part of the deal was that I try to fly + report honestly on all brands. It has influenced what kites are available , thus my opinion somewhat.

I think you have done well at this- yes an ARC guy but willing to give anything a chance. Nothing wrong at all with supporting a friends shop either. As others have stated, BBob, Angus, Rip, Dino, etc.- all do an awful lot to promote this sport. If it happens that some are in this from a commercial stand point, well props to them. As for trolls, I think most of them just grump their way out of existence eventually. On a personal note, I have been avoiding this place a bit, but only 'cause I might be the worst impulse buyer on the planet. OK I think Kamikuza might have me beat :smilegrin:

EDIT: Holy crap- 3 edits to get a smiley to work. I'm going to bed.

rocfighter - 10-11-2009 at 05:18 AM

I find coming to this forum sort of like going home for the holidays. Not every one is going to get along. And Uncle Grumpy is always going to upset someone. But in the end every one is glad they came home. This is how I feel about it. We are all into this rediculusly expensive life style (I almost wrote hoby) because of more than just how flying makes us feel. It's the fellowship of the understanding we all have for the sport.
I got into kiting after a severe brain trauma. two years in hospitals and rehab. My parents wanted me outdoors so they baught me a simple Gala kite and took me to the shore and put the kite in my hand. 10 years later I'm still hooked.
Lets all help each other with a kite rather than fuss about it. Ok thats my stand on it. I'll put away the soap box now!
Dave.

Kamikuza - 10-11-2009 at 06:51 AM

I'm not impulsive ... I just neeeeeeed that kite :yes:

Dave - can we quote you on that? "I like kites cos I'm brain damaged" :cool:

rocfighter - 10-11-2009 at 06:59 AM

If the shoe (or in this case the hat) fits wear it!
Dave.

Kamikuza - 10-11-2009 at 07:06 AM

:thumbup:

indigo_wolf - 10-11-2009 at 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by B-Roc
I must not read or pay attention to enough of the threads as I haven't really noticed any change or negative vibe at all.

I still find this forum to be one of the most friendly and enjoyable kiting forums around. So what if PKF, like every other family has a crazy uncle and dysfunctional in-law.

Could you save me a seat, because I think I am on the same bus as you.

It took me 2 days to figure out what prompted this thread.

Out of a barrel of kite-related forums, PKF probably ranks in the top 3 for civility... yeah there are exceptions and the surcharge for rose tinting the prescription is just way too spendy.

Relatively new, and I generally find it easy to figure out who is a retailer or has vested interests. In the exception cases, it generally doesn't matter to me, as there are too many other factors that will come into play before any money passes over the counter.

I think there is a large difference between promoting your store and talking up a product/product line that several other retailers on the forum and elwhere carry. I am even OK with mild cases of the former (like someone giving a heads up on closeouts, demos, or used items).

On the Signal to Noise spectrum, there are definitely other forums where you spend a whole lot more time weeding through crap before you find anything useful.

The concern about new visitors being able to identify retailers is appreciated, but I think a little dose of "caveat emptor" would go along way.

Not particularly directed at anyone, but if we're tallying neophyte impressions, thought I would throw mine into the ring.

ATB,
Sam

kiteNH - 10-11-2009 at 09:22 AM

I didn't read all of this long thread, but it seems that the issue that the original poster had was with commercial type posts on the forum. I have a really simple simple solution to make sure that there is no question regarding bias. And I think that most of the members who are in the biz already do something along these lines.....

Shop owners, distributors, and team riders, etc should list their company name and the brands that they are affiliated with. That way everything is right out there in the open, on every post and there is no confusion.

f0rgiv3n - 10-11-2009 at 09:35 AM

Man I love this forum. :roll:

coreykite - 10-11-2009 at 11:42 AM

Hey Sailors,
OK.
Sellers should identify themselves as such on the forum.
Who's to say?
I am a retailer but I don't use the forum to sell.
I figure that's what my web site is for.
I don't sell on the field or the playa either.
But I should label myself on the forum regardless?

Besides, with garage and van dealers coming and going out there, why wouldn't we want to identify those with legitimate brick & mortar stores and an established web presence?
Where do we draw the line?
Who makes those decisions?

Self-regulation allows us to live up to certain ideals.
We're still a small group and can make this work.
More rules and regulations will encourage some to try to take advantage.
Is that the direction we seek?

You know I'm making this up as I go along?

Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

ripsessionkites - 11-11-2009 at 08:49 AM

i think if you going to be part of this community you should be as a whole. if you're in the kite business let it be known in your signature. At the same time also take part in asking questions and helping others out than Pimping One's Product how good it is.

i've seen a member just post in the For Sale Section, all he/she is trying to do is sell on the forum. however saying that, its easily spotted and one can look away.

+1 for Lama

:smilegrin:

acampbell - 11-11-2009 at 09:49 AM

Corey, nothing wrong with putting your shop in your sig; it is a good resource that might help people.

I took my URL out of my sig for a while when there was some concern expressed about commercialism on the forum, and put it back in only when PKF reminded me that it was totally OK.

Not long after BeamerBob became a store rider for CWS, we both arrived at the conclusion that this should be in his sig in order maintain transparency, and I see other shop / team riders doing the same. Good.

I think most shop owners are careful about posting specific products for sale only when it answers a member's specific question "does anyone know where I can get....?", or is otherwise germane to a particular post or current topic of genuine interest (**newsworthy).

I will post items for sale unsolicited only when they are used demos, since I think someone might benefit and the sale is of no or limited commercial value to me. The back-handed benefit I do derive is the space in the trailer and in the budget for a new model so that I can stay current with industry offerings and answer questions. If anyone thinks this is out of line with the spirit of the forum, please tell me here or in a private e-mail.

I'm glad this topic comes up every once in while, as it seems to help keep the place comfortable, and I hope this time that any worries are addressed satisfactorily. Time and democratic opinion seems to take care of the occasional troll or questionable vendor, and sometimes there is some entertainment value there. I agree that this is one of the better forums out there and would hat to see people driven away, as that is always another resource lost to the community.

indigo_wolf - 11-11-2009 at 11:02 AM

Quote:

I will post items for sale unsolicited only when they are used demos, since I think someone might benefit and the sale is of no or limited commercial value to me. The back-handed benefit I do derive is the space in the trailer and in the budget for a new model so that I can stay current with industry offerings and answer questions. If anyone thinks this is out of line with the spirit of the forum, please tell me here or in a private e-mail.

I think the breeze on the back of the neck test for me on this is this:
You (and all the PKF retailers) add to the shopping pool for folks that are just starting out (among others). The former are the ones most likely to go running for the hills from sticker shock, and the demos make for a nice transition/easing. I've bought demos from you and Dino that would be hard to tell from something off the manufacturer's warehouse shelf. :thumbup:

My price/whimper tolerance is building nicely... just not sure that is always a good thing :rolleyes:

ATB,
Sam

heliboy50 - 11-11-2009 at 02:38 PM

The fact that the commercial side of things gets represented in sig lines is a good thing for me- if I need to look for something, it's easy to find. I also didn't know where to look when I first got into this.

bison - 11-11-2009 at 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by coreykite

Self-regulation allows us to live up to certain ideals.

Yep! That's what Wall street said! How's that working out for everybody. :wee:

coreykite - 13-11-2009 at 12:07 PM

Hey Sailors,

Bison, that was uncalled for.
Are you simply mud-slinging for amusement?

Kiting is not comparable to Wall Street.
The kite business is nothing like the financial industry.

If you don't have something pertinent to contribute...
I would personally appreciate you keeping snide comments to yourself.

On to more meaningful stuff:
I have no issue with a store name being in a sig line.

I was referencing the previous idea that retailers MUST identify themselves as such.
I do when I am answering a specific question, but not as a common thing.

quote from angus's previous post:
>I'm glad this topic comes up every once in while, as it seems to help keep the place comfortable, and I hope this time that any worries are addressed satisfactorily. Time and democratic opinion seems to take care of the occasional troll or questionable vendor, and sometimes there is some entertainment value there. I agree that this is one of the better forums out there and would hate to see people driven away, as that is always another resource lost to the community.<

I consider this to be one of the more intelligent opinions I've read.
Particularly concernng the entertainment value.

Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

jellis - 13-11-2009 at 06:09 PM

corey corey corey you are not the godfather Fran is.

B-Roc - 13-11-2009 at 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jellis
corey corey corey you are not the godfather Fran is.

I thought Chilese was :puzzled:

opps wrong forum :moon:

indigo_wolf - 13-11-2009 at 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by b-roc
I thought Chilese was :puzzled:

OK... that made me smile. :smilegrin:

John certainly does look the part in his black-on-black suit. :yes:

ATB,
Sam

bison - 16-11-2009 at 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by coreykite
Bison, that was uncalled for.
Are you simply mud-slinging for amusement?

Kiting is not comparable to Wall Street.
The kite business is nothing like the financial industry.

Actually , I was making fun of your "...Self-regulation..." statement. Total nonsense!!!

Quote:

I would personally appreciate you keeping snide comments to yourself.

Like you have done for how many years? I've heard more snide SH*T out of your mouth than any other buggy pilot. Yet every time someone calls you on it, you say you were only joking.

Get some thicker skin dude!