Power Kite Forum

Synergy Troubles, no longer a perfect kite.

brplatz - 23-11-2009 at 05:00 PM

Well I had a unfortunate happening today.

While flying in some great 15-25mph winds, synergy pullin and liftin. It seems, even when the donkey dick is all the way in, somehow when I lean back on my board, the chicken loop falls out.

The first time this happened, I barely caught it before the kite was a goner, I thought nothing of it and put it back and made sure everything was hooked correctly. I also Hooked my safety leash to my harness, per manual instructions.

Mind you I have not modified anything, all stock setup.

The second time I lean back, the chicken loop pops off and the safety leash catches, but only for a second, then somehow releases automatically?!?!?

I am running for the now completely disconnected Synergy and it happens to go right over a fence into some concrete/metal rubble. Both my friend and I hop the fence and grab the kite before any more damage is already done.

After releasing it from the fence and such, we look for damages.

It now has a diagonal, 4 inch long, rip right above the deflate zipper.

Man, me and kites are not having a good week. First one stolen, then a second broken...

I'm gonna send PL and Fixmykite and email tonight.

Brian

rocfighter - 23-11-2009 at 05:08 PM

Wow that sucks. Make sure your hook is not bent for some reason. It sounds fishy.

kiteNH - 23-11-2009 at 05:12 PM

Wow bummer man. I think that the lesson is always use a leash if there is something that is downwind of you that you don't want your kite to fly into, whether its a fence, road or person. I know you don't have to use one with the PL, but it is an extra safety. You don't need one for Ozone depower foils either, but they can be nice to have and protect your kite and your liability.

I almost lost my first Access on the very first day I had it. It was an 8m and it was gusting to 20mph and I can unhooked and had the kite on full power staring at a barbed wire fence at the end of the field. Thankfully I got a lull and was able to get hooked back in.

Definitely send it off for a nice professional repair. Don't put any goop or tape on it. Being a new kite you don't want to mess it up. With a professional repair it sounds like it will be just like new. And buy yourself a nice new leash!

brplatz - 23-11-2009 at 05:29 PM

Thanks guys I appreciate it, I will figure it out.

Just not a good week for me, yah know?

Here are some pics of the rip.



brplatz - 23-11-2009 at 05:42 PM

Anyway I did get some nice pics from before the problem.








stephdip - 23-11-2009 at 05:54 PM

:smilegrin:

cool pictures dude !!!
and the rip looks clean should be a easy fix and lucky aswell
it wasn't worst reading where it ended up !!!

quite interesting about the loop ..
hapened to me twice !!!! all was secure like you said was riding in nice winds on skis when just about to get some air i find myself hanging onto the bar full power because the loop came off as if the chicken dick wasn't rigid enough !!!
i always keep my leash on the harnes,but still not fun to fight trying to get it hooked up again...

it will be interesting to see why this is !!!

steff

rudeboysaude - 23-11-2009 at 06:05 PM

I landed my Syn19 in a tree and tore the top skin. Much bigger then yours. What I love about PL kites is how easy they are to repair. If you get some ripstop tape or even some insignia cloth you can fix that in 5 minutes. You could go one layer, but I'd sneak one piece of tape inside the cell to put on the back side, and then one on top of it too. Sandwich that kite fabric right in there and it'll hold. Round the edges of the tape to minimize chance of the corners peeling back. You could send it off and pay for charges and shipping, but I'm telling you, simple tape will fix it right up and keep that tear from growing.

I blew my v10 to hell. Blew out 4 ribs and tore the top skin tip to tail and did some sewing and used ripstop tape and I still fly that kite today. I've never sent a PL kite in for repair. If you got tape and a sewing machine it'll be air borne again in no time!

A.

tridude - 23-11-2009 at 06:05 PM

If its a zero 7 bar, chicken loop, and DD are a pile................modify with a new chicken loop and DD.............go front line safety as well...........fixmykite.com for repairs.......my 15m Syn damage was 2 blown cells, LE damage, and over 100 cumulative inches of damage................$90 repair

the zero 7 bar has issues................not a fan..............If you need pics of modifications on my Z7 let me know..............................

Kamikuza - 23-11-2009 at 06:10 PM

Sorry to hear that :( looks like an easy repair though :thumbup:

Losing the chicken loop ... happened/happens to me a lot cos I tend to pull the bar ALL the way in - and my hands knock the donkey dick around and it comes out, then when I pull the bar again it unhooks. Sounds like you're doing the same thing - and then, to add insult to injury, you knocked the red hat thing too and lost the whole lot.
Apparently for some #@%$#! French law, the safety is designed to release with a very small amount of pressure ... oh this is assuming you have a Zero7 bar!

Ease up on hauling the bar in :thumbup:

What Carl does and what I'm going to do next time I can fly :( is hook the harness leash onto that d-ring inside the chicken loop - the suicide leash setup. You'll be permanently hooked into the kite like a regular LEI or whatnot so you'll have to make sure you can use the safety on the leash instinctively ...

stephdip - 23-11-2009 at 06:19 PM

pics would be nice !!! i to have the z7s now.
funny how it never happened with the z4 bars.
they had the DD come straight down the centre,where the z7 has it on a rap arround velcro on the loop..
maybe that's part of the prob !!!???
and the other prob i find with the DD in the winter is the stiching seems to rip appart when it's nice and freezing while your trying to hook up a DD hard as rock !!!

but this is all part of the fun:smilegrin:
can't wait for the snow to arrive..

oh and nice field you have there brian:yes:

steff

action jackson - 23-11-2009 at 06:32 PM

No worries on that rip, slap some tape on it and your ready! It would fly fine even with this hole. I took that red hat of my bar after the first time it released.I never use the leash to the loop, I always have the safety hooked to my harness. ........aj

mgatc - 23-11-2009 at 06:55 PM

Tri,

Post some pix of the upgrade to the Z7 bar. I had similar issues at Folly and still don't trust it.
Thanks,

m

PHREERIDER - 23-11-2009 at 07:05 PM

tape and 15sec that was easy.

the loop/harness thing ??.. in the pic i don't see where the leash is attached to the harness? looks as though the leash goes from the back line and attached to the main above the loop/or on it and not to you. am i missing something with 07 loop safety? is there a small secondary ?

i like the front line for flag lines but some VPC arcs may do better with rear.

i do see the DD through the harness hook. the DD has to be pulled all the way down sometimes. Some have elastic and velcro that keep it stable. it must be checked and pulled in proper position . many a time i flicked the DD without pulling it down and the loop comes off. but the leash always catches it

flyjump - 23-11-2009 at 07:06 PM

Thats happend to me about 4 times this year too on the zero 7 bar, but I still love it. Luckily I was able to hook in to save it.

tridude - 23-11-2009 at 07:35 PM

Will do Mel......................good news is easy fixes for hassle/worry free flying....................last time I saw the front line safety released was in 25 plus mph winds.........13m V was released from zenith.....rolled over on its backside, landed, done..................I asked if he wanted a catch and I got the LOOK........................flown by Phree:lol::lol::duh::duh:

bottom line is you do nothing with the zero 7 , nothing changes (easy math) not trying to be critical but uncommanded unhookings are too frequent with this rig. My moded Best bar is all round more user friendly/safe than the Z7........................

brplatz - 23-11-2009 at 07:51 PM

Thanks guys, I do appreciate the help

I plan on getting one of these
http://www.fixmykite.com/shop/proddetail.asp?prod=kitefixrip...
and this while I am at it
http://www.kiteboarding.com/proddetail.asp?prod=pks_standard...

That should have me flying very soon. :D

Brian

Kamikuza - 23-11-2009 at 08:51 PM

That directed at me, Phree? The steel loop inside the chicken loop - hook a regular leash onto that ... no good if you're doing fancy tricks but ...

power - 23-11-2009 at 09:09 PM

With my north 5th element bar I've had it fall off two times in a row, then no problem afer that. But I was flying in low winds so the bar was sheeted all the way in.

ripsessionkites - 23-11-2009 at 09:11 PM

sorry to hear about your accident.

i never did like using a bar leash, i thought if we have auto zenith i would trust that and just use a kiteleash instead.

yes, i agree the Chicken Loop and DD suck and doesnt work on all Spreader bars. the DD with the velcro sides up and down so it comes out quickly. In some cases i've removed the DD completely and took my CL and squeezed it so it had less of a circle and more oval like.

ive heard that some take the bar leash and connect the clip to their spreader bar as a semi leash, doesnt work if you like to un-hook

another thing is flipping the RED Hat, opposite how the pic (above post) has it.

power - 23-11-2009 at 09:14 PM

what's the difference between a kite leash and a bar leash?

brplatz - 23-11-2009 at 09:18 PM

Bar Leash is the one pictured above. The kite leash is the one that hooks to your harness and to the CL or Safety line. I think :lol:

What do you guys think? DIY fix sounds easy enough and cheaper, but a professional fix would be good too?

Thanks

Brian

ripsessionkites - 23-11-2009 at 09:32 PM

bar leash is the picture above ... where the if you pulled the safety the kite would flag out.

a kite leash is a bungee type strap that attaches to bar and to the back of your harness.

TDMC96, upload that pic / video where I have the kite leash activated. please.

ripsessionkites - 23-11-2009 at 09:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by brplatz
Bar Leash is the one pictured above. The kite leash is the one that hooks to your harness and to the CL or Safety line. I think :lol:

What do you guys think? DIY fix sounds easy enough and cheaper, but a professional fix would be good too?

Thanks

Brian


a. depends, if you like looking at repair tape on your kite ... its the cheap way to go

b. some repairs they just replace with patched material

c. depending on the professional repair, some will actually remove all the damaged cells and replace with new material so you kite looked like it NEVER was repair.

its just thread and ripstop chikara / dacron, it can all be replaced. :spin:

tridude - 23-11-2009 at 09:42 PM

if you DIY tape inside and out....................fixmykite are awesome and do outstanding repairs on ARCs.........BBob and I can attest to that.........................dont use that fiber glass patch in that link you posted............good ole ripstop tape and your good to go...............Angus at coastal, WOC, Powerzone, and Ripsession have what you need...............

swap out your CL, add a front line safety, no more issues......................

zero gee - 23-11-2009 at 09:57 PM

DYI fixes can be easy and pro looking job too. I used Kitefix on my 15 Syn with a foot long dogleg tear on the LE. I can hardly see it even when I know where it is. I put the fiber tape on the inside so it's not visible. No stiching and lasted over a year of hard kiting on water, snow and ground and a few good impacts too. Took an hour to repair and that included opening the TE. I had to sew the TE back up though.

brplatz - 23-11-2009 at 10:09 PM

Sounds kike a DIY fix is in the works soon.

This or
http://kiteboarding.com/proddetail.asp?prod=minirepairkit
This?
http://kiteboarding.com/proddetail.asp?prod=completerepairki...

Brian

f0rgiv3n - 23-11-2009 at 10:20 PM

Someone suggested running the DD through the Suicide leash attachment. I did that on mine and haven't had it come off yet, I was doing 360s, grabs. etc... and never had it come off. it seems more stable with it through there. But this has me scared, I think i'll get a suicide leash from that site you posted with the emergency release on it incase i ever have to detach myself from the suicide leash...

tdmc96 - 23-11-2009 at 10:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ripsessionkites

TDMC96, upload that pic / video where I have the kite leash activated. please.


Here are the 3 pics I found of Rip. (sorry...no skirt this time):singing:

markite - 23-11-2009 at 10:36 PM

All good comments on the fix - I've done many twinskins and for most guys a simple tape job would suffice unless they want a nicer sewing job. You can even carefully put the tear fibers aligned and put a bead of crazy glue to weld the tear but I normally only do that on smaller tears and might still back up with tape.
if you are replacing panels you'll note that all appliqued sections are taped. It's actually rare that a tear gets into anything taped, usually the skin and stitching will tear out and the taped areas are solid.
Ribs will tear a long distance and will rip the edge off so they take a bit of edge rebuilding first and usually when the stitching pulls out with the rib it'll cut the upper or lower skin in spots where it rips through instead of breaking. All fixable just takes time.
One of the downsides to twinskins when they come down in any place with things that can impale the pressurized kite it doesn't take much when the wind pushes the big surface area down. Seen it happen a few times with buddies on holidays the first day they get somewhere and discover thorny bushes etc.

zero gee - 23-11-2009 at 10:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by brplatz
Sounds kike a DIY fix is in the works soon.

This or
http://kiteboarding.com/proddetail.asp?prod=minirepairkit
This?
http://kiteboarding.com/proddetail.asp?prod=completerepairki...

Brian


The kits you linked seem to be geared more for LEI's. You can pickup dacron tape from other sources if you ever need to repair holes that are missing material.

At the time, I just bought a pack of the fiberfix white tape (all that was available) and a tube of gluefix each seperately.

Maybe this one... http://kiteboarding.com/proddetail.asp?prod=kitefixripstop

Kamikuza - 23-11-2009 at 11:50 PM

I've got a roll of something in the boot of the car which is sold for repairing nylon things in general like tents, awnings etc ... it's stretchy clear tape that is apparently available from hardware stores in the US but not here of course. Put some on my Airush and now I can't find the holes :lol: can't for the life of me remember what it's called though - I'll have a look next time I'm in the boot.

For the 'harness' leash, make sure you got a safety on it - my Naish bar came with one and it's got a pull safety that I put on the harness end.
I didn't think you needed one with the Zero7 bar - until things went wrong and the Phanny went floating downwind without me :lol: the Zero7 OE one ONLY works if you're hooked into the spreader bar ALL the time!

I seem to remember Carl saying that you should have a second safety leash all the time ... but I might be mistaken :lol:

My Fusion harness came with a really long DD that worked great but I lost it in the lake cos I hadn't attached it properly - now I've got a shorter one and I find I knock that off when I don't mean to, too ... some bars have much better solutions for chicken loops, I think Ozone does the Megatron loop or whatever - the DD looks to actually be part of it ...

zero gee - 24-11-2009 at 12:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kamikuza
I've got a roll of something in the boot of the car which is sold for repairing nylon things in general like tents, awnings etc ... it's stretchy clear tape that is apparently available from hardware stores in the US but not here of course. Put some on my Airush and now I can't find the holes :lol: can't for the life of me remember what it's called though - I'll have a look next time I'm in the boot.


Sounds like the stuff I still use it to patch small holes. Awesome stuff.

K-Tape... http://www.kenyonconsumer.com/store/product.php?productid=78...


or Tear-Aid... http://www.tear-aid.com/

Kamikuza - 24-11-2009 at 12:22 AM

Tear-Aid ... muh I'm dense at time - that's the stuff! REALLY sticky ... and almost invisible - you have to look at the kite with the sun behind it to see the darker areas that the tape creates to actually find it!

Maybe you can pick that up at the store down the road ...?

BeamerBob - 24-11-2009 at 04:50 AM

I solved this problem of the DD coming loose by running it through the suicide leash loop at the top of the chicken loop. I've never had the CL come loose again because positioning the DD through that ring prevents it from sliding down. If it slides down, pulling the chicken loop into your belly pulls out the DD and the kite is free to find fences, thorns and road signs. I also like Carl's idea of the second leash.

On the repair, it should be fine with ripstop tape. You might even be able to find it in red. I also have some clear super sticky tape like kami mentioned and it disappears after you apply it. I don't think this warrants a professional repair. They could fix it for $25 I bet but you'll have another $20 for shipping each way. They will just put ripstop tape on with a supporting stitch all the way around. Probably not necessary on your small tear.

carltb - 24-11-2009 at 05:47 AM

looks like most of the questions have been answered but heres another, to stop the top hat being accidently released, turn it upside down.
that suicide leash you linked to is not up to the job. the clips are not strong enough and will open when under tension and you will loos your kite again. you would be better off with something like this - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110...

acampbell - 24-11-2009 at 06:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mgatc
Tri,

Post some pix of the upgrade to the Z7 bar. I had similar issues at Folly and still don't trust it.
Thanks,

m


Yeah, like 10 min. after I had told Mel it was OK to hook to the Chicken Loop and not the harness (so he could spin the bar), he is chasing his Synergy down Folly Beach. Sheesh. I had seen HQ bars come un-hooked but not PL's. Now I always clip to the harness.

acampbell - 24-11-2009 at 06:14 AM

Brian I can mail you some Red & White spinnaker tape. (White for the inside so it won't be as dark against the sun)

Kamikuza - 24-11-2009 at 06:27 AM

Found it! From here - http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/ARCsetup_FAQ.htm

Control Bars - 07 - as supplied with the Venom II & Scorpion



Trim Adjuster Strap = 260mm adjustment
Leaders from the bar connection to O/S handle = 300mm
Leaders from O/S handle to Rear line connections = 570mm
Total Leader length = 870mm
Bar movement = 330mm (default) 370mm maximum
Depower Line total length (Extended) = 987mm (LE connections to Bottom Chicken Loop Stop)
Depower Line total length (Full depower) = 720mm (LE connections to Bottom Chicken Loop Stop)
LE leaders = 50mm LONGER than TE




12cm minimum is required so that the safety release can work correctly.
4cm minimum so that the velcro connection point can spin freely.

WARNING: Do NOT over tighten the stopper ball as it may damage the depower line. Only tighten until the ball cannot move along the line.

Safety Warning - Check your setup - DO NOT attach the leash to the safety leash attachment on the self landing handle, but attach it directly to the S/S ring where the self landing handle is attached to, as shown in the picture below.



DO NOT attach ANY leash using this or any similar type of connector ABOVE the bar. There is a VERY HIGH risk of lines getting caught in the clip which will prevent the kite from 'flagging out' when released.

User Warning: Please note due to the design of the TopHat (Push to Release) safety system implemented to comply with the French Kite Safety Rules (NF S52-503 July 2005 Kitesurf) requiring a force of 10daN maximum to release the kite it is possible to release the kite from the chicken loop just by knocking or catching your hand or cloths on it.

NOTE: To reduce the chances of this happening reverse the position of the Red TopHat release cover so it is as shown below.

PHREERIDER - 24-11-2009 at 07:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kamikuza
That directed at me, Phree? The steel loop inside the chicken loop - hook a regular leash onto that ... no good if you're doing fancy tricks but ...



no, just looking at the pic brplatz posted zoomed in on the front. i see the 07 with the outside line and the swivel top. hard for me to see the purpose in that. i do see the leash point in the loop and know its a nice suicide point . the DD looks light in YOUR pic KK, i can see problems with failure at that point for sure.

front line flag or suicide , simple safety ,keeps you safe and ALWAYS controls your gear.

Jack1988 - 24-11-2009 at 07:33 AM

Sorry to here that dude, i know nothing about arcs really but i hope you get it fixed.

Bladerunner - 24-11-2009 at 07:50 AM

I skipped to reading pictures this a.m. but If I hook the leash to my harness instead of the chicken loop it is just a bit short and can play on that one side ?

f0rgiv3n - 24-11-2009 at 08:35 AM

just to add another type of tape out there, i've used tedlar tape which is freaking amazing, and cheap. and clear.

-mj- - 24-11-2009 at 08:44 AM

Sorry about your kite.
All good comments here, I too had it happening, usually when sheeting all the way in.
the DD as supplied with the bar is crap, we have upgraded ones to replace the standard one (with the velcro)
other option is to connect the DD not to the chickenloop but to your harnessloop instead, but makes unhooking bit more tricky.
Top hat reverse, good one, is what I always recommend.
French law, sigh.

brplatz - 24-11-2009 at 11:20 AM

Thanks for the help guys, looks like some tape and I will be flying again soon.

Angus I sent you a U2U.

Kami, Ill have to look into some of those mods.

Carl, Is that one stronger or what? Cause I don't want my kite flying away again

Thanks

Brian

tobytobsen - 24-11-2009 at 12:11 PM

I use the Zero7 bar as well, but it came without the DD, so I bought a DD from Naish which attaches directly to your hook. It is super stiff and kind of hard to lock and unlock. But it really stays in place. Here are some pics:






Sorry for the bad quality just took it with my phone real quick.

PHREERIDER - 24-11-2009 at 12:41 PM

TobyT i have the same naish finger back up and it works perfect.

tobytobsen - 24-11-2009 at 12:55 PM

I just cant find it anywhere online, here is one from concept-x

link

ripsessionkites - 24-11-2009 at 01:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by carltb
looks like most of the questions have been answered but heres another, to stop the top hat being accidently released, turn it upside down.
that suicide leash you linked to is not up to the job. the clips are not strong enough and will open when under tension and you will loos your kite again. you would be better off with something like this - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110...


ya, i noticed the clip didnt hold well too. i was actually playing with opening and closing it out of boredom and it stoppped closing afterwards. so i have a carabiner at the end of mine.

sofa king - 24-11-2009 at 02:27 PM

so just attach the safety leash to harness and kite wont fly off into a fence, right?

brplatz - 24-11-2009 at 02:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sofa king
so just attach the safety leash to harness and kite wont fly off into a fence, right?



Thats what I thought!!!! Dont trust the one that comes with it. My release failed, as could others.

I am going to leash from my harness to the CL from now on'

Brian

kiteNH - 24-11-2009 at 03:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by -mj-
the DD as supplied with the bar is crap, we have upgraded ones to replace the standard one (with the velcro)


Yep, my new Synergy came with the new dd. It sure doesn't seem like it could come out on accident. But I'll probably be leashing it just to be safe.

sofa king - 24-11-2009 at 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by brplatz
Quote:
Originally posted by sofa king
so just attach the safety leash to harness and kite wont fly off into a fence, right?



Thats what I thought!!!! Dont trust the one that comes with it. My release failed, as could others.

I am going to leash from my harness to the CL from now on'

Brian

by failed, you mean snaped/broke?
EDIT: wow i just realized what you mean, i didnt know the clip was held on by a pin, thought it was tied on.... i think ill switch it out for a pad lock....or a carbinier clip

BeamerBob - 25-11-2009 at 04:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kiteNH
Quote:
Originally posted by -mj-
the DD as supplied with the bar is crap, we have upgraded ones to replace the standard one (with the velcro)


Yep, my new Synergy came with the new dd. It sure doesn't seem like it could come out on accident. But I'll probably be leashing it just to be safe.



It will come loose if it slides down. Poke it through the suicide ring that's right beside it before locking in the CL with it.