A few weeks ago, my friend's younger brother mentioned to me that he was selling a kite, and invited me out to fly it. 3 weeks later, I've spent
5-6 hours researching the sport and how to best become part of it.
I've been reading these forums for the last week or so and am getting the feeling that this community (you guys) are all serious kiters that
really care about the sport and are willing to help a scrub like myself out.
As I said, I'm trying to jump in, but there is are a TON of things to learn, and I decided it would be easier/wiser to ask some advice from you
guys.
A little background: I live in Knoxville, TN where the kiting sport seems non-existent. The winds are relatively low with a n average of 6-7mph,
but those are balanced between days of 0 wind and days of pretty decent gusts. I've played competitive soccer for the majority of my life (I'm 18) and
consider myself very athletic. I'm a gangly guy, 6'3" and 170lbs on a good day. I live near a large lake, and am looking for a way to get into kite
boarding (thats wake boarding with a kite right?)
I rode that kid's Rush 300 for about an hour in fairly heavy winds for the area, and feel like i had a decent handle on it, but I don't have a
gauge for what skill is.
I tell you all this because I need some advice on what to get. My budget is fairly small ($550-650ish) and I'd like to be able to get more than
just static flying with it, if that is feasible for a new comer. I have access to that Rush as a 3m training kite until he sells it if that changes
anything.
to be dead honest cheapest way into the sport is to get your self a used LEI bow/hybrid kite from ebay. If your winds are a constant low wind (6-7)
mph get a large LEI inflatible.
15-20 meter LEI (leading edge inflatable). you can find them for around 300-400 bucks try and get a 2006 model and above. Yes if you crash it at super
high speeds into the ground you can bust bladders. Jus dont crash them. simple baby your kite but face it its going to be your first kite so its going
to get thrashed some better to thrash a used kite then a brand new yankee peter lynn high dollar wanna be paraglider kite. IM tellin ya go with LEI,
with the extra money you will eb able to afford a harness and board and what ever cold weather gear your going to need. since you flown that rush foil
kite then you already know whats up with the wind window so your good to go, YES you can launch a beast LEI by your self and yes it easy but for your
first hand full of launches have some one assist you.
thats my two cents worth, good luck bro and welcome to the
great fun of the kite world
edit: ive been seeing great deals(ebay) this time of year, from liquid force havocs to
best waroos
nash
cahbrinha
even caution answer kites are freakin great kites, ive flown a 16 m caution answer and it was killer fast. great quality bar lines bridal all grade A+
craftsmanship
you got a bad ass name man, my names ken as wellfurbowski - 20-12-2009 at 08:34 PM
I'm not yet in the water (and in not much hurry to do so, but that's another story, however yes water is on the list) so maybe I shouldn't be yakkin'
but I got a couple opinions for you to consider...
1) jumping into the sport in a hurry, on your own (no lessons or local kite community), with gusty inland winds, at 18 yrs old, and on a budget with
used gear off ebay... well, any way you look at it, that puts you at considerable extra risk. :o I'm NOT saying it can't be done but you owe it to
yourself and the kite community (since we suffer when a newbie gets hurt, esp. if it gets on the news) to do what you can to keep the risks down.
2) even if you go cheap, you're not going to fit all the gear for water into 600 bucks or so. close, but not quite. and there's always some other
bit of kite gear you'll need to get.... It will take huge self-control and careful buying to get close to that budget you mention.
3) if you go LEI, keep the size down to 16m or less, 12 is better, esp. if your periods of "pretty decent gusts" max out at more than 15 mph, as I
believe that's about when the water guys start to change down from their big kites.
4) learning to board in gusty winds is really hard. I don't board (yet.... :piggy: ) However I know what's up with a powered kite because I jump lots
on land, but I need the right wind, otherwise its just not safe. I can easily teach somebody how to fly a kite around the wind window in winds I
would not dare jump in. Gusty winds are really unsafe when you're powered up. Yes depower helps but it does NOT eliminate the risk of gusty winds
and you won't really appreciate that risk until you're harnessed to a big kite in gnarly winds: but by then it may be too late... :frog:
5) Check back here monday evening... Monday is usually a really busy day on this forum and you should have lots of opinions on here by then...
You'll get a whole range of advice... I reckon HAH is kinda over on one extreme, I'm somewhere in the middle, and there may be the odd fellow thinking
you're bit crazy, but it will all be good advice. In the end, you'll have to decide for yourself how you wanna do it, be real careful letting your
wallet call the shots...
6) If you're going to get into this all on your own, do it SLOW! In other words, keep the risks down!
welcome to the forum by the way...Kschuett18 - 20-12-2009 at 10:54 PM
yeah, trust me, i'm not one to jump in and hurt myself. My school soccer team is competing for nationals, and as a starting senior, i don't really
feel like jeopardizing that. Besides, this is a purchase I'm planning on making in the summer after I've got a job ease the blow my bank account will
be taking. As for the budget, I've already got a board and bindings, so that's a non issue.
furbowski, you said "3) if you go LEI, keep...", as if LEI isn't the only option. What are the others? I know that those are the standard water kites
but thats the extent of my knowledge.power - 20-12-2009 at 11:15 PM
LEI will be your cheap route for water. If you already have a board, you could pick up a kite and bar and lines for 300-350. A harness used will
probably cost you 60 - 70, so your budget is definitely reasonable with money left over as well. If you're waiting until the summer to get your gear,
you'll have a chance to wait for good deals to come up. As houston airhead said, there are always LEIs and bars and lines for them selling on ebay.
Just type in kitesurfing kite to get the most results. For water use, you're going to want more power than you would on land, and even though I don't
have any water experience yet, I would say 12-15m would be good for your size. If you get something like a 14 or 15m, watch out! It'll bite you if you
don't handle it properly, its a big step up from a trainer kite. But if you learn its flying behavior in light winds and as you feel more comfortable
progress up to higher winds you should be ok. I would pick up a fixed bridle kite as well, used, and nothing special, just make sure its not an ebay
brand. Maybe 4m in size. If you get that out in high winds you'll understand how powerful these kites can be without getting injured (hopefully). Good
luck.Houston AirHead - 20-12-2009 at 11:57 PM
yeah, i thnk he had said he only gets 6-7 mph winds in that case you would need a very large LEI, like a 20 meter. But if the wind does pick up to
around 15mph, a 15 meter would suit you nicely for water as well as land. I mostly landboard as i hate driving to the coast so yeah i use my LEI
mainly for land and i have slammed her pretty hard into the ground before, and shes still truckin like soldier. but yeah as power said big kite
produce wicked amounts of lift and power.flexiblade - 21-12-2009 at 12:10 AM
Hey - welcome to the forum. Good to see someone with enough sense to ask before they totally jump into this sport without knowing what they are doing
. . . wait, I did that.
I got lucky that I didn't seriously injure myself in the process. I started with a small (1.7 meter) foil stunt kite, which taught me very well how
to control the kite. I then made a crazy jump by getting what I thought would be a pretty powerful kite - a 4m Flexifoil Blade III - and I was right
about the power - a huge amount of power that threw me around like a rag doll. I quickly discovered the difference between controlling a stunt kite
and a kite with true power - being able to focus while your hearting is jumping out of your chest.
Going from a 3m trainer to a 12m LEI may be common for kite surfing but there is the usual added training that makes this possible. A teacher will
guide you through what to do and what not to do. I've noticed that the guys/ and gals on water have a tendency to fly overpowered, that is to say
with a lot more power than those of us that stick to land. If you don't have access to getting lessons then you might want your first real powerkite
to be something a little more user friendly like a 3m Beamer or a 3m Pansh Legend - the Beamers run around $220 - the Legends around $120.
One thing to look out for with LEI's is that if you screw up and jam them into the ground (which I guarantee you will) they will blow out their
bladders, which can be very pricey to replace. Start cheap, learn, learn some more, then step up to something that will get you going - thats my
2cents.lynx69 - 21-12-2009 at 12:15 AM
Jonesband probably got some good deals. (NOT!!!)
beware of his rip off scams i.e. Montana HQ kite. Try this forumn first. Surely someone has a deal for you on PKF. Welcome to the kite addiction.lives2fly - 21-12-2009 at 05:40 AM
Hi welcome to kitesports
I'm new on these forums but I have been kite flying for a while on land and water and I think I learned the real hard way so happy to share and maybe
save you some pain.
I did what you want to do - pitched right into kitesurfing with no flying experience at all.
The one sensible thing I did was get a basic kite control lesson - this was great for getting your head around all the set up and safety stuff - and
is probably what saved me from serious injuries.
Then I spent £1200 (about $1900) on a board, harness and a Peter Lynn Venom 13m. 13m would have been an ok size for an LEI but I should have gone a
bit bigger with an Arc - no one told me that - i just got told get a 12m kite.
You need LOTS of power to kitesurf so to stand a chance of getting up and riding i was having to take my venom out in 20 - 25 knots which is not
really very good learning wind!! needless to say I got trashed more than anything else and eventually more or less gave up.
I didnt give up kite flying though. I bought a couple of foils and a land board. built up my kite skills in all kinds of winds and then hopped back on
the water with a more suitable kite for 10 - 20 knot learning conditions (12 - 18kts is perfect) and had MUCH better results and much more fun.
I would not even bother getting on the water with a board in less than 10mph winds though mate - you are going to have to really commit every dive of
your kite and be able to keep the lines tight at all times + be pretty handy with you edging skills on the board.
I would get a big foil and a land board and learn all your skills there. You can go slow on a land board while you work it out - if you go slow on a
surf board it sinks...Kschuett18 - 27-12-2009 at 08:47 PM
mucho gracias for all the adviceDMC - 27-12-2009 at 10:06 PM
I am new to the sport also. I took lessons and the one thing my instructor emphasized was to make sure I am not over power when I am out on the water.
To help reduce the size of the kite needed, a longer, wider board will make the big difference. My first weekend out on the water with my own
equipment, I was on a 145 cm wake style kiteboard and a 14 meter LEI. It was in low winds and at 195 lbs. I had to work the kite to get out of the
water and stay up. The next day one of the guys let me try his larger and wider wake style board, and the experience was like night and day. At the
beginning of the week I was back on Ebay looking for a good deal on a board in the 160 range. Everyone I spoke to about the board size said the same
thing, there is less to think about when you have the board floating you. Are you have to worry about is keeping the kite in the air.Houston AirHead - 27-12-2009 at 10:16 PM
for this reason i want a kite-surfboard.DMC - 27-12-2009 at 10:35 PM
But with a kite-surfboard, you are back to thinking about more then flying the kite. Houston how do you figure a surfboard going to benefit a new
kiteboarders learning curve?Kamikuza - 27-12-2009 at 10:46 PM
Welcome Kenny!
I'm just starting out in the water - good kite skills help a ton so get in as much time as you can flying your little kite!
The first board I got up and riding on is an Airush Square One - 175cm long and 48cm wide but I'm a big fat bastard as you can see from my YouTube video ...
LEI is probably the most common kite type - Leading Edge Inflatable which means you gotta pump it up. There are sub-types of C-kite, Bow and Hybrid -
others here will give you better advice on what to buy when the times comes.
Other water kite types are foil (Flysurfer or HQ brands) or arc which is only really Peter Lynn kites. They're kind of like the little kite you flew,
as in they have 2 skins and need to be filled up with air once they're flying ...
You'll need ... kite, bar and lines (sometimes sold separately) harness and a board. Keep your eye out for deals but you'll probably blow your budget
fairly easily
DMC - I think Houston meant kitesurf board as in, not a wakeboard ah board and not a kite surfboard.DMC - 27-12-2009 at 11:07 PM
Thanks Kamikuza but I did understand what kind of board Houston was talking about. I just didn't understand his thoughts about the kitesurf boards
being better. I would think you have to plan ahead before you make the directional turns. You have to have the kite in the right spot and more the
feet in a curtain way before the kite picks up power again. It don't sound like it would be easier then using a board like what you have.Kamikuza - 27-12-2009 at 11:12 PM
IIRC the wakeboarding boards have a big rocker and rail config that doesn't suit the kite thing ... apparently
The bigger, floatier Square One in that vid made life so much easier than trying to get mad speed out of my North Sumo so I could plane - lots more
riding time on the aircraft carrier.DMC - 27-12-2009 at 11:39 PM
yes what you are saying make sense. A kiteboard is made with very little rocker. The board I tried was a Flydoor 155, and right away I could tell that
a board in the size range was the way to go when it came to learning on the water. My instructor told me that his 165 flydoor that he ride is the
perfect size for lite winds and for people starting out. At first I was thinking he was just trying to plant a seed in my head to make a sale. After I
tried that 155, it really opened my eyes (bigger is better) . Kamikuza I really
liked your video clip made. You really made it look easy, and fun.Kamikuza - 28-12-2009 at 03:37 AM
Yeah that was another reason I got the USS Lexington - light wind barge
My Sumo is 155x45 IIRC and people say that's a large board ... but it looks to me like the trend is to go out in bigger winds with smaller kites and
boards - either that or those guys are spending all their money on gear and not on food little weenie boys ...
I'd struggled for a few days with my old C-kite and the Sumo, erratically getting up and riding but not consistently. That day in the video I had the
16m Cabrinha Crossbow and the big board - piece of cake! I was up and riding for hours almost immediately.
Nick reckoned it wasn't worth buying the big board (US$400, well used) as he thought I'd grow out of it but I had an inconsistent next day, riding the
15m Phantom and the Sumo ... too fast, too much wind and I got my ass handed to me I think it'll be a good investment for the learning ...ragden - 28-12-2009 at 06:59 AM
I think this thread got a little off-track, but there is some great knowledge and advice here. I dont really have much to add, but I'll throw this out
there for ya.
First off, you would do really well to see if you can locate anyone in your area to ride with. Having someone to look over your shoulder and give tips
is absolutely priceless. I know you havent see anyone in your area yet, and that sucks. I know there is a kite store somewhere in West Virginia, but I
dont know how far that is from you. If you can take a road trip to a kiting location and get some "help" it would do you very very well. I'd offer for
you to come out to DC, but we dont have the greatest winds.
Something to consider would be doing one of the summer camps in the Outer Banks. If you can get into that scene, you could do really really well.
Trick is to get hooked up. Contact the folks at Real Kiteboarding, or Kitty Hawk Kites and see about some sort of summer internship. The way I recall
that working, you work for them, and live with them (some sort of barracks arrangement). You dont get paid much, but you will make some money on the
side. You will also get lessons, and access to gear. I wish I had had this kind of opportunity when I was a teenager. Both companies have pretty major
websites, it wouldnt be a bad idea to do the research.
As for learning by yourself. Get something small. That Rush is a decent kite to start with, keep flying the snot out of that thing. I am a little
confused on the board you say that you have. I got the impression that its a kiteboard for water. You might want to consider picking up a landboard
(or buggy) so you can ride when the water gets too cold.
Getting some flying time on one of the smaller fixed-bridle kites with handles isnt a bad idea either. These kites are quick, snappy, sometimes
twitchy, and quite powerful in the right winds. Flying on handles will give you a good understanding of how to control the kite and get you very
familiar with the wind window. You might already know these things, but these kites are always good to play with. At the very least, it will give you
a taste of "the other side" of things. Not to mention the older model beamers and pansh kites are relatively inexpensive.
A quick comment on LEI kites. In their environment these kites are great. They run cheap, and have come a long long ways in the safety department. If
you decide to go this route, I would recommend an 07 at the latest. The safety systems came a long ways that year, and going older than that might not
be as safe. Not to say that the older models arent safe, just that you might do better with a slightly newer model. A lot of folks are dumping their
older kites to pick up new kites with the improvements that have been made in the last couples of years. LEI kites do have bladders in them. They
leak, they pop, they delaminate, and eventually fall apart. Treated well, they can last a really long time, just like anything else. Ram them into the
ground enough times and they will burst. So will the fixed-bridle foils. Repairs arent always expensive, and if you get an LEI you will probably
damage it at some point. Just go into it knowing that, and you will be fine (first day I flew my TD2 I wrapped it around a tree and punched a hole in
the canopy).
It is very important to know and understand how your safety systems work. Whatever it is that you get, make sure that you understand how to release
the kite, and how to recover it.
Boards. Wakeboard are not kiteboards. Wakeboards have a LOT more rocker and tend to require a lot more wind to get going. Most people I know own at
least two boards for water. One for light wind, and one for stronger winds. This is fairly common. My Monster Door works great when the wind dies, but
when it picks up, that board is murder, and having a smaller board is a lifesaver. Directional boards can be fun, but not something to learn on. I
would seriously recommend picking up a twin-tip (TT) to start, then, once you know how to ride the TT, you can pick up a directional. Directionals are
awesome to ride in waves, but in flat water, the TT will be much more fun.
Sorry for the wall of text. I didnt mean to put that much up, but once I started... well...
Welcome to the sport. Fly smart, be safe, and take care.acampbell - 28-12-2009 at 07:08 PM
Hi Kenny
I am surprised and concerned that someone here would encourage you to go out and grab an LEI and jump in to the sport without lessons. As stated the
Rushes are a good start and are used by schools, but remember that in that case they come along with a qualified instructor. Radgen's advice about
hooking up with someone is sound. You are just a couple of hours from North GA and SC where I know there are kite peeps.
I have seen people show up on our beach with LEI's and admit that they have no clue what they are doing and no documentation on the used gear they
got. Real scary since they can not just hurt themselves but someone else as well as the sport itself. I help when I can to avert disaster and always
try to use it as teaching moment to help them understand the risk involved all around.
There are riders in our group who are on the water with major gear and no formal lessons, but they learned gradually over years. Like me, they
started with a 3-4 m fixed bridle kite and flew for a long time before trading up in sizes gradually, then maybe a 7-9m de-power. I learned the
dynamics of kites in motion in a buggy, others the same or on a land board before moving to the water and larger kites. We all had riders around that
were better and more experienced than us to mentor us along the way.
I'm sure you will find some help with some scratching around and this forum is the good place to start. Just don't go it alone and keep asking
questions.furbowski - 28-12-2009 at 07:32 PM
lots of opinions, eh? and they are all valid in their own way.
A lot of the self-taught guys on here have come from other sports (offshore sailing / racing & rock climbing & open ocean sea kayaking in my
case, 10 years as a full-time instructor) and so already have a lot of risk management / recognition built in.... We know what it's like to build up
skills over time and also know how to recognize unsafe situations... for a far more detailed account of that kind of skill (recognizing situations
from experience and making reliable snap judgements) read the book "Blink" by Malcom Galdwell.
but yeah last thing you probably want is some non-kite related reading LOL.
"Just don't go it alone and keep asking questions" that's your bottom line. Good luck to ya!Kschuett18 - 30-12-2009 at 10:33 PM
furb-
As a matter of fact I have read "Blink." Liked it a lot and bought his new book (somthing with a dog in the title) for my dad for christmasfurbowski - 30-12-2009 at 10:43 PM
Ha!
LOL...
I bought the dog book for my brother in law!
happy new year to ya and best of luck on your kitequest...
:wee:Kschuett18 - 1-1-2010 at 12:24 PM
Alright, so Christmas is over and I've got some money. I've decided to get a trainer and it's come down between the HQ Rush III 350 Pro or HQ Hydra
350. With roughly a $90 dollar difference between the two, is the water relaunchability of the Hydra gonna be worth the extra dough?acampbell - 1-1-2010 at 04:23 PM
It really depends on whether you like to play in the surf or not. The Hydra is a real hit with the local kiteboard instructor since he can take his
students into the surf before hooking them into the full de-power kite.
The advantage of the Hydra on land is that being a closed cell, when you luff the kite it will stay inflated and keep its shape more, making it less
likely to get fouled, and easier to recover.Kschuett18 - 1-1-2010 at 08:44 PM
But the kite isn't actually big enough to pull through, on, under the water correct?acampbell - 2-1-2010 at 07:05 AM
That's correct. You can play in the surf and do some body dragging in a stiff breeze, but you will not ride on the water. You need 8-9 meters+ for
that, and that is usually a de-power kite.Kschuett18 - 6-1-2010 at 07:24 PM
This may be the wrong forum, but i'm not sure so i'm just gonna continue in this topic.
So I've spent the last 2ish weeks researching this same question as i first asked, but outside of this site, I'm seeing a lot of people suggest buying
a small SLE (4-6m^2) instead of a trainer. They insist that I will get a better feel for the full-sized kites that I will eventually be flying
(remember, i'm planning to kiteboard) and that it's just as safe and will save money.
Your thoughts?furbowski - 6-1-2010 at 07:51 PM
my thoughts? well (and maybe to recap for the more informed who might be new to this thread and your situation)
1) this site is full of foil-loving diy-ers and a healthy smattering of everything-power-kite freaks with low post counts and years and years of
experience, so you'll get most likely pushed towards that route... (maybe that describes me more than the folks on here, but I reckon that's a
pretty fair assesment...)
2) prime concern here is with safety. If you want to get on the water in a hurry you need to either spend a lot of money or take more risks, no way
to get on the water quick on your own on the cheap w/o accepting higher risks. So you're not going to get a strong vote saying go hard and go LEI
from here.
3) from your earlier posts you have a) access to a 3m trainer b) low average wind speeds but some gusty decent winds, no objective numbers on what
those winds are like... c) a strong concern that you don't suffer injuries which might get in the way of your other goals for the next six months or
so and d) you don't actually plan on getting on the water until the summer.
so... without clear objective wind speeds I can't say anything about going small LEI. remember lots of the kitesurf folks live in areas with good
winds and they can get something out of 6-7 m. I had (and have still in the bag, untouched in 2 years) an old naish boxer c-kite (2003?) and it
didn't teach me much, that's my experience. They are high wind kites for folks who are gOOOOOd and have LOTS of experience and hours. I have low
winds generally in HK, lots of 5-10 mph winds, so it didn't do much for me. So I went cheap foils, pansh ace 5 and 8, and they taught me a lot, and
eventually got me up to jumping static quite confidently and smoothly with very few kite collapses, which is not a small achievement imho. but yeah
nothing like busting large on the water.
it's a big long learning curve, and i'm loving every moment of it and i'm actually not in much hurry to rush up it into risky country, i've been at
risk many times and prefer to avoid it if possible. I once fell off a offshore racing boat at night in heavy weather, not everybody survives that,
and i continue to remember that episode quite well.
You're not actually in a hurry, you have little cash, and you have a trainer kite for the next while. are you having fun with it? keep going with
that, research the H#ll out of your local spots and winds, pick up a 5m foil for cheap in a bit, and save the kitesurf ambition for when you have the
cash OR the opportunity to embrace high levels of risk (which i wouldn't recommend)
In the meantime get your hours in!
that's my 2 cents...
and i say again, best wishes and good luck on your kitequest...
furbs, out.Kschuett18 - 7-1-2010 at 01:24 PM
see, when you lay it out like that, i just feel silly for ever questioning you in the first placeMaven454 - 7-1-2010 at 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Kschuett18
see, when you lay it out like that, i just feel silly for ever questioning you in the first place
Don't let furb scare you too badly. He likes to go into lecture mode on occasion. :Dfurbowski - 7-1-2010 at 02:19 PM
yeah, sorry about that...
at the end of the day though, it's just an opinion from a guy who doesn't get to kite enough so I vent on the keyboard, if you know what I'm saying.
best wishes for you, as always!
:bigok:Maven454 - 7-1-2010 at 02:27 PM
It's okay furb, we still like you... unlike that other guy .Kschuett18 - 7-1-2010 at 02:53 PM
Lol, Hey now! Just cause i feel like an idiot doesn't mean i dislike him. I'd rather him lecture me then see my post and ignore it.
Nother question: Is there any benefit to getting a new, big trainer (i.e. a 350 Rush Pro 3) vs. and older smaller one (Rush 3 200 or an older
generation)? If not, thats like $100-150 bucks saved right thereMaven454 - 7-1-2010 at 03:24 PM
I didn't mean that you didn't like him. I meant that we like him as opposed to another guy, whom everyone likes to dislike :D.
For the purposes of learning, a smaller, older kite can still work fine.
but I'm a big fat bastard as you can see from my YouTube video ...
. Kamikuza I really
liked your video clip made. You really made it look easy, and fun.