Power Kite Forum

A question for Popeye and the God

power - 13-1-2010 at 06:17 PM

I used to think that buggying was not really for me, the fact that most guys just cruise with them, no jumping or anything like that (usually), but now after riding them a few times, I definitely see the fun in them, especially on those days I just want to relax and cruise. However, the price tag is just too high on any of the good ones like the PL's. A friend of mine is a big time welder and has made many motorcycles and used to race cars, he's got a large shop with all industrial tools so he certainly has the knowledge and equipment. My question is, what does it really take to build them? Where can you get the metal and what kind do you need? Wheels- where to get them and $? Specs? I don't want to be cramped at all but I don't want it to be too big. I'm 5'7". Any advice is apprectiated, as long as you actually know what you're talking about :wink2:

WELDNGOD - 13-1-2010 at 06:48 PM

Power, you got lots of Qs. I will see if I can sort this for ya.
Patience, lots of patience and a fair amount of fabrication skills. Then some welding skills you would trust your life to.Time ,dollars and beer.
To get metal, you can check scrap/recycling centers, or buy from metal distributer(get ready to fall outta your chair
). As to what kind of metal, that's your call. Everybodys got their own answer for that. Me ,I favor aluminum. Most say you can't build a decent buggy from alloy, but I gotta differ. But I would never jump one of my alloy buggies though.Too easy to get a bent frame ,from hard landings.

Wheels can be had at any hardware type store if ya want wheelbarrow tires. If ya want bling
http://www.awindofchange.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&am...
Specs, I think popeye has got some plans on his webpage. All my plans are in my head and they change constantly. I freestyle fabricate when I build.
All said ,you could probably find a used buggy cheaper than you could build a sweet ride. It's kind of a labor of love ,so to speak.
There, That's about it:smilegrin: JK
how bad do you want to build yer own?



WG

power - 13-1-2010 at 06:57 PM

Personally I would rather make my own, I really enjoy building and I would love to learn how to weld and work with metal (such a useful material) and so its just one more oppurtunity to do so plus it should be a nice little project. When I clicked on that link I almost fell out of my chair, and I think I'll probably end up falling off my roof when I look at the metal + wheels + seat costs:o:o I think I'll stick with wheel barrow wheels, as long as they'll work just as well. I don't really plan on jumping with it. What would be the cheapest kind of metal (that would still work well for a buggy) I could find? What am I looking at for total costs on the whole thing if I go the cheap route?

WELDNGOD - 13-1-2010 at 07:15 PM

the price of metals vary widely and regionally too. Carbon steel would be your cheapest route as stainless and aluminum are high dollar materials. Three wheelbarrow wheels are http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/produc...

seat .... Peter Lynn comp XR seat
http://kiteplace.com/kiteplace_peter_lynn_kite_buggie.htm

high speed bearings...
http://www.mfgsupply.com/m/c/AZ8205.html?id=zGWuNU7b

power - 13-1-2010 at 07:27 PM

Definitely going with wheel barrow wheels, I hope they're not to skinny though. High speed bearings are cheap, the seat is a bit expensive but not too bad, now for the metal. Any estimate for aluminum? How about carbon steel? Would the carbon steel rust easily?

WELDNGOD - 13-1-2010 at 07:55 PM

You will have to call a distributer and get a quote on material, the price changes according to market. The last time we got a whole stick of aluminum pipe, it was near 250 dollars. And if you get it at a scrap yard, you might pay50 bucks. Just depends on alot of different variables, so no way I can tell ya what it will cost.

there are a few others who have built cheaper builds than I would make. They could tell ya some prices, but it depends on what is available in your area.

indigo_wolf - 13-1-2010 at 08:10 PM

Power:

Assume you have already been here:
http://pic7.piczo.com/Popeyethewelder/?g=33349545

But if not, you should :wink2:

ATB,
Sam

power - 13-1-2010 at 08:10 PM

Looks like I'll check out a junkyard. You know of any good ones around virginia?

lad - 13-1-2010 at 08:32 PM

If you are patient, there are inevitably some cheap, used buggys offered here and elsewhere.

Affordable, and amusing for your kite friends

:shocked2:

flexiblade - 13-1-2010 at 08:40 PM

Another fly drawn into the web of fabrication.

Steel will rust, only way to counter this is either painting or powder coating. Stainless (popeye's main ingredient) is going to be very expensive any way you cut it (unless someone gives it to you). I would assume carbon steel is going to be stronger than mild steel but will not flex as much. You need that flex, without it the frame will crack and eventually break. If you look at the homebrew section on popeye's website you can see there are a lot of different ways to go on a build as far as design and materials. For your first bug you want something that can take a beating without collapsing or bending - I have described before what I call an over under frame made of 1"x1" 1/16 wall mild steel as pictured below (sorry about the quality - just got a wacom pad and am still learning how to really use it). This frame is very strong, flexible, and very inexpensive. You don't need a pipe bender since all the angles are made with strait cuts on a chop saw. As far as a seat, if you can sew you can make one, screwy should chime in on this - the seat he made was amazing, along with his bug in general.

frame.jpg - 125kB

power - 13-1-2010 at 08:54 PM

Like the idea flexi, I'll have to look at some more pictures of buggys to get a better sense of how much metal I'm going to need and I haven't decided on the design yet. Bending the metal is not a problem, he's basically got a professional metal working shop, I'm just not quite sure of the advantages of a curved pipe over a straight one.

Kamikuza - 13-1-2010 at 09:30 PM

... how about PVC pipes? :D

flexiblade - 13-1-2010 at 10:25 PM

PVC has been used in the past with what I saw to be a disastrous effect, shattered into a couple of pieces after a period of time, could work if the PVC was filled with a mixture of resin and chopped fiberglass.

power - 13-1-2010 at 10:46 PM

I think I'll stick to metal. Popeye?

power - 13-1-2010 at 11:14 PM

Hey shehatesmyhobbies, got any suggestions? You built a nice bug yourself, wish I could make mine that good. What was your total cost for all the materials? If you don't want to post it just U2U me.

popeyethewelder - 14-1-2010 at 12:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by power
I think I'll stick to metal. Popeye?



Hi Power, you have already been given plenty of good advice here. I prefer stainless steel as most of my buggying is done on the beach, although I do not go for the more expensive 316 grade, I stick to 304, which is plenty good enough for my needs.

Steel tube will be fine too, as long as its well protected, if you intend to do the majority of your buggying inland and during the sunnier months, then a cheap prime and spay job with be ok. If on the other hand you want to hit the beach, then powder coating is recommended, just be careful not to chip the coating if you are dismantling it to fit in your trunk. If you are going down the powder coating route, I would get it zinc plated/galvanised first.

You mention you want to enjoy cruising etc, well make your buggy around 1600mm long axle to axle and 15-1600 wide, I too am 5'7" and I make my buggy as long as possible for me, I personally have to use footpeg extenders to get my ass in the right position in the buggy to get the tow point right....this is probably the most important part of your build and care should be taken to try to work out where your tow point will be, (your tow point is where the kite will be attached to you when you are sat in your buggy)

Make your side rails high, like just underneath your arm pits and make the side rails quite tight.....believe me, most people get this part wrong, they sit in someone buggy on the beach, and think yeah this is just right....well yes it may be just right....just sitting there, but get powered up with a kite and all of a sudden you have a 100mm gap between the rails....I have been reducing my side rail width ever since I made my first buggy....inside my rails now is 380mm....then I have the padding on....in fact I have to get in my buggy almost side ways and twist my ass as I hit the seat....this makes for very secure and worry free buggying, yes I could if the kite was directly above me get pulled out, but it would not be as easy if the rails had been wider.

I would go around your area say 50 mile radius and source out all the fabrication shops...ring them and ask if they have any 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" tube offcuts....you will need 3 pieces about 1500mm - 1600mm long for your side rails and axle, and then a small off cut about 500mm for your back rest....well it called a back rest, but is more of a brace so you can apply plenty of pressure on your footpegs when fully powered up, don't be tempted to make it high as it will only hinder your shoulders when turning....keep it low......

Wheel axles....try to use 20mm...12mm are ok but you will bend a lot of bolts.

Dont worry about the weight of your buggy, there is a 60kg rule in the European racing scene, but if you dont race you have no restrictions...long, wide, heavy, tight, strong, minimum flex = good buggy, make jigs for parts, and keep everything square

rocfighter - 14-1-2010 at 07:09 AM

I made my buggy out of scraps I had laying around in the yard. But I have the bonus that I am in the scrap metal buisness. It is no beutey as The God and PTW make. But it does the trick. Plus all it cost was the electicty for the welder and a few nights in the garage.
PTW has some great plans on his web site and thay are easy to follow if you are good with math and mechanics.
Have fun, Dave.

power - 14-1-2010 at 10:13 AM

Lots of info there popeye, that should be very helpful. I'll have to give my local shops a call, what does it take to do that powder coating and what will be the cost differences between aluminum, stainless and zinc plated? Advantages of square vs. round tubing? I really just need to look at a ton of pictures of different buggies to get a sense of how much metal I'm looking at and what kind of design I want to go for.
@Rocfighter-I'll definitely take a look at his plans for ideas, but I think I'd like to come up with something more original.

indigo_wolf - 14-1-2010 at 10:33 AM

http://pic7.piczo.com/Popeyethewelder/?g=33355493

Ya gotta love the wooden "Trojan Horse" buggy in the Home Brews section. :wink2:

ATB,
Sam

rocfighter - 14-1-2010 at 12:04 PM

One advantage to round over square tube is you can mandrel bent it far more successfully. With square it is better to cut and weld angles. I have an old Ridged pipe bender that works well on maluble tubes. I used stiffer tubing so I ended up filling it with sand so it wouldn't crimp. It worked well enouph for me.
Oh and do a better than bad job and get on PTW all time home made buggy list. Mine is #313 WOO HOO :bouncy:

DAKITEZ - 14-1-2010 at 01:10 PM

there was that rockeville buggy on here for cheap. That would be a great start. I doubt you could build a bug for what that rockeville was going for. Sure they could use some mods but that would be the good project for you that you want.

I'm all for people building their own custom buggies, but its very hard to know what you want when you have little experience in a buggy. I feel its best for people to put time in the seat and then you will know exactly what you want to build. Most like the big buggies like Popey, but some prefer smaller buggies like a flexi or PL XR. I think it really depends on your location you will be riding in.

However you do it have fun! I never thought I would be a buggy guy either till I did it once. After 5 minutes in the buggy I was looking to buy my own. I think I had one a couple days later :thumbup:

And for the record my first buggy ride was in a rockeville :shocked2:

popeyethewelder - 14-1-2010 at 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by power
Lots of info there popeye, that should be very helpful. I'll have to give my local shops a call, what does it take to do that powder coating and what will be the cost differences between aluminum, stainless and zinc plated? Advantages of square vs. round tubing? I really just need to look at a ton of pictures of different buggies to get a sense of how much metal I'm looking at and what kind of design I want to go for.
@Rocfighter-I'll definitely take a look at his plans for ideas, but I think I'd like to come up with something more original.



In powder coating, the powdered paint may be applied by either of two techniques.

The item is lowered into a fluidised bed of the powder, which may or may not be electro statically charged, or

The powdered paint is electro statically charged and sprayed onto the part.

The part is then placed in an oven and the powder particles melt and coalesce to form a continuous film.


Steel v stainless v Aluminium prices, well here in the Uk stainless will be at least double the price, but, you dont have to galvanise or powdercoat the stainless, stainless will take at least 3 times longer to weld and 5 times longer to clean and polish....I cannot comment on Ally prices, WG will give you the low down on that.

If you want to get serious, then torsionally, rectangular box section would be better for the side rails and round tube for the Goose neck, the main reason for the round side rails and rectangular goose neck is its easier to make it that way...

Sand Yeti makes his buggies this way to cope with the stresses involved with his desert buggying, although he hasn't successfully made a round down tube yet, its is far easier to clamp a box section one....use 60mm X 40mm X 3mm if you go down that route...a 40 X 40 x3mm thick one will twist when fully powered up

I more recently have made round Goose necks on my Dominator's and the Maloo buggy seen here

http://pic7.piczo.com/Popeyethewelder?g=50948072

Generally the stronger you make the buggy the less problems you will end up with...use 2.5-3mm wall thickness on your sections, and use a 1.1/5"nb sched 10 at least or 50mm diameter rear axle

power - 14-1-2010 at 02:57 PM

Thought about the rockville, I think I'd rather put my money towards a good buggy or the materials for a good buggy.

I'll get back to this thread after I get some questions answered from my friend, see what he thinks it'll take to make it and what kind of materials I should use and how much.

WELDNGOD - 14-1-2010 at 03:09 PM

correction for Flexiblade - carbon steel comes in several grades OSS- ordinary strength steel , HTS - high tensile steel , SSS - super strength steel . It is called this because one of the key ingredients is coke that comes from coal.
It is just a generic term really. Sorry for hijack.

WG

heliboy50 - 14-1-2010 at 06:40 PM

So is OSS what is commonly called mild steel?

WELDNGOD - 14-1-2010 at 06:55 PM

exactly

heliboy50 - 14-1-2010 at 07:39 PM

Schedule 40 1" side rails on my next. Sorry for the hijack, power. All I have to say is building your own buggy is a very rewarding experience. I remember one trip to the beach when I overheard a guy say "He built that? I wonder if he would do one for me?". That's a pretty good feeling.

WELDNGOD - 14-1-2010 at 07:58 PM

I get that alot ,or they think I'm pullin their leg.
Power ,if you make it out of steel and paint it. To prevent serious rusting ,make sure you hose it off real good w/ freshwater. My alloy buggies are only painted, and seawater is pure evil to aluminum. But I just hose it down and put it away. Been a few yrs. now ,and I have no corrosion probs at all.
Take your time, get all your metal. And I would get a seat before you start, so you can shape the siderails correctly.

Welcome to the brotherhood of buggy builders, soon your garage will be overfull.

WG

power - 14-1-2010 at 08:27 PM

I don't want to rush this, its not urgent so I might as well take my time and do it right. I'd have to agree with heliboy, if I built it myself, I think it would be a lot cooler rolling around in it than the usual peter lynn.

flexiblade - 14-1-2010 at 09:26 PM

One of the huge benefits of building it yourself is that you can make the buggy fit you and not have to make yourself fit the buggy. WG - yeah I was just assuming on the carbon steel - I thought coke was used as a raw material (fuel) for smelting steel and iron in a stack furnace?

WELDNGOD - 15-1-2010 at 02:31 PM

they actually add it in certain amounts along w/ alot of other stuff. Most all furnaces now are electric arc furnaces.

Big Earl - 15-1-2010 at 06:47 PM

Check out my "first buggy project", I put a list of materials, lots of pics, and descriptions

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=10035

It's on the buggy section on the second page. Also check out popeyes web site. There is tons and tons of good info there

Everything to build the buggy is pretty cheap like $100 for the metal, $75 for wheels, except the bearings and the biggest problem I had was getting the rear axle bosses ( where the rear wheels screw in ) fabricated. Oh yeah then there is sewing the seat. that cost as much as the metal. Maybe you could find a used one. It would have been cheaper for me to buy a new pl or libre seat than what I spent on just materials to sew it myself. But it was tons of fun to DIY.

flexiblade - 15-1-2010 at 07:10 PM

Do you mean induction furnaces or actual "arc" furnaces, I ask this because we are just installing an induction furnace to smelt bronze - 300 #'s at a time. Sorry for the high jack - hey power when you decide which way you want to go with this jot down some drawings and post them on here so we can pick em apart, just kidding - but a picture is worth a thousand words and will help focus assistance.

power - 15-1-2010 at 08:12 PM

@Big Earl- Nice buggy man. Love the colors and the design. What do you mean by sewing the seat? That may seem like a dumb question, but isn't it just a piece of fabric for your back, one for your butt and two for the hips stitched together? I'm sure there's some sewing involved but it doesn't seem like much, or at least not $100 worth but I'm sure I've got something wrong. Also, what do you mean by screwing in the wheels? Don't you put the bearings inside the wheel and then slide it over the end of the axle?
@Flexiblade- I'll definitely post some pics once I get my ideas sorted out on paper, that may take a while though. There just seem to be so many different dimensions to consider- length of the buggy, length of rear axle, width of seat, distance from the back of the seat to the foot pegs, distance between back of the seat and the rear axle, height of the seat off the ground, etc... I'm sure many different dimensions would work fine but I don't want it to be a good buggy, it needs to be great! Also, I think I'll go with powder coated on mild steel, but I'm not sure whether I should use round or square tubing and I'm also not sure what wall thickness and ID of the metal will be strong enough but not excessive.

Kamikuza - 15-1-2010 at 08:40 PM

... I was joking about the PVC by the way :lol:

heliboy50 - 15-1-2010 at 09:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by power
@Big Earl- Nice buggy man. Love the colors and the design. What do you mean by sewing the seat? That may seem like a dumb question, but isn't it just a piece of fabric for your back, one for your butt and two for the hips stitched together?



Bit more involved than that. It's gotta' be strong, yet comfortable and able to stand the test of time. My seat was $30-40 worth of webbing and buckles, $20 material and internal padding, and $20 worth of UV resistant thread. I don't really want to fall a$$ first on to the ground. :shocked2: 40 mph sand enema :shocked2:

power - 15-1-2010 at 09:50 PM

True. I think I'll just get a PL seat, its definitely cheaper.

rocfighter - 16-1-2010 at 07:17 AM

" Sand enema" Now that would make for a bad day. I guess I will wear my pants while buggying after all!! :singing:

WELDNGOD - 16-1-2010 at 08:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by flexiblade
Do you mean induction furnaces or actual "arc" furnaces, I ask this because we are just installing an induction furnace to smelt bronze

Yeah, I forgot about the induction furnaces. But my point was that we have gotten away from coal fired furnaces now. I think you can remelt about any metal, but I 'm almost positive to produce from ore and raw materials, you need an electric arc furnacew/ an actual arc, like 10kv kind of arc!

I could be wrong ,as I'm just a sorry a$$ shipyard welder.
but I can get r done.

flexiblade - 16-1-2010 at 09:21 PM

Yeah an "arc" furnace would probably be necessary for refining from ore.

Something to think about power - transportability - do you have a truck or large vehicle or trailer to get your future bug around? If not than you may want to include in your design work compartmentalizing your bug - Here's an example of how my bug, which is comparable to the size of a Race Buggy, fits in the trunk and backseat of my Honda Accord.

power - 16-1-2010 at 09:31 PM

I've been thinking about that a bit. My dad has a truck but I usually go kiting with friends who have small cars. I think it'd be a lot easier to build it and not worry about being able to disassemble it for transport, but I'll probably make the front wheel setup disconnect from the rest of the buggy, and then maybe make the rear axle removable as well? Your buggy is just about the only one that I've seen that is held together primarily with bolts, not welding. That certainly must be nice for transport!

flexiblade - 16-1-2010 at 10:05 PM

I wouldn't say that its primarily held together with bolts - just key components, the swan neck is clamped to the frame with 4 bolts - the axle I'm using now (the pictures above are with an older design with shocks - I have since eliminated that axle due to bending) splits in the middle and is held with a bolt that screws into the center sleeve of the axle - and the frame is connected to the rear axle by 4 bolts (connects the extensions to the frame). It is a little bothersome to tighten the 4 bolts for the swan neck and then put on and tighten the 4 nuts for the rear axle - the single bolt in the axle is cake though. I am working on a design to use a single motion clamp with a coder pin to hold it in place - 1 for the swan and 2 for the axle to connect to the frame. Instead of taking 5 to 10 minutes to put together it would be more like 30 seconds. Every second counts that's keeping you from kiting.

heliboy50 - 16-1-2010 at 10:11 PM

Mine unbolts but the main frame is kind of unconventional and rather large. The hardest part to handle and transport though is the front fork/tire/swan neck assembly. Big and heavy. A more conventional design would still have this issue, but frame rails and rear axle would be fairly compact. If you will be running BF's, they are going to be bulky. Kind of part of the reason I have had a little trouble going riding lately- some dummy went and got himself a Kia hatchback. Oops.

power - 16-1-2010 at 11:00 PM

BF's?

furbowski - 16-1-2010 at 11:06 PM

bigfoot tires.

power - 16-1-2010 at 11:10 PM

Thanks furb. I don't think I'll be running BF's then- wheelbarrow wheels are the way to go!

heliboy50 - 16-1-2010 at 11:37 PM

Just nice to have the option if ever you will ride in taller grass or soft sand.

power - 16-1-2010 at 11:48 PM

$ on the bigfoots?

heliboy50 - 17-1-2010 at 01:15 AM

$100 for 3 nanco n800's if you buy them locally, +$40 if by mail. They will fit barrow wheels, but I run mine on golf cart wheels (SCREWYFITS idea) for a big soft sand footprint.