Power Kite Forum - Running a kite shop - Good Job?

Running a kite shop - Good Job?

sp4cem0nkey - 14-1-2010 at 02:04 PM

I've recently come to the conclusion that what I do for a living and what I went to college for no longer interests me, and I'm looking to make a major career change.

I'm interested to know what it would be like and what it would take to start up my own online shop selling kites and kiteboard-related equipment. Around how much capital would I need to get started? Business experience? Web design? etc...

My wife is currently employed, but we don't want to take a HUGE drop in income. At least not in the long term. I remember there being an Austin.craigslist ad about just such a shop for sale for $14k including inventory and training. Unfortunately, I never looked into it, and the ad hasn't been up in several months now. Kinda wish I had inquired about it...

power - 14-1-2010 at 02:40 PM

Just was thinking about the exact same thing yesterday. Is it a good business to be in, or is it a struggle to make a profit?

WELDNGOD - 14-1-2010 at 02:48 PM

Don't quit your day job

B-Roc - 14-1-2010 at 03:24 PM

The only way to make a little money in the kiting business is to start with a lot of money. ;-)

I admire those who support our habit but lets face it, no one gets rich selling kites (or spinners, flags, wind toys, and whatever else they can stock to raise funds). IMO most kite store owners are enthusiasts first and they do this because they love the sport. They aren't in it for the money and if they are honest, they will share countless stories about people who call up, pick their brain, try to negotiate a deal and then buy from someone else. Pump the store owner for knowledge and then search the web for who can give you the better deal will be the frustration of the kite store owner. I'd love to own a kite shop but I don't have enough reserve funds to do that and make my mortgage, car payments, put kids through school, pay medical bills, etc.

How many kites do you think are really sold each month? How many fliers who buy one kite, do you think return to buy 2 or 3 or... Of that volume of kiters how many do you think you can direct towards your store? How many of your ideal customers who buy a full quiver, can you actually get to upgrade each year to keep you in business? Its a tough business. Hats off to those who persist in it and feed this great sport for a little while. Major kudos to those who have been in business for 5+ years

Bladerunner - 14-1-2010 at 03:38 PM

What the Brick and Morter shops around here have to do is combine Kiting with something else.

One sells windsurf stuff as well and has reduced hours / closes over the winter. Another is a Ski and Board shop covering many sports. Another small town one in Squamish is a coffe shop with kites in the back.

Dakitez took off in a way that Dino didn't expect ( online ) . Good service wins ! None of the people I know selling just kite gear , even just online can afford to give up their day jobs. Not even Dakitez.

I DO think it is important to enjoy your work no matter what you do. Life is too short to be unhappy 8 hours a day !

furbowski - 14-1-2010 at 05:55 PM

normal rule of thumb is that a business will sell for 5x annual profit, with inventory / property extra... so do the math for the craigslist posting and wince... :no:

don't quit your day job, but as a weekend game? :wee:

you're not the only one to have thought about this...

:dunno:

BigMikesKites - 14-1-2010 at 06:40 PM

Its alot of work. Alot of money. If I had in kites the amount of money I put into this, I'd have every kite I ever wanted...which I don't have now. Time is a killer too. Tons of time, demo-ing kites, teaching people how to fly, going to shows and the like...None of which pay.
I'm hoping to be in the black by year 3. No salary. This without the burden of rent and electricity.

Shoot me an email if you want more info.

heliboy50 - 14-1-2010 at 06:49 PM

I have been trying my own business (not kite related) for 2 years and still barely break even. If you want it bad enough though, there is always a way. What others have said about a combo business (small hobby shop with kites maybe) might be another way to go. The way I look at it is if can make enough to offset at least some of the cost of my hobby, then it is worth the effort. One big killer for me was and is being the nice guy too much. What I produce costs what it costs, and that's the way it is. The worst mistake is never even trying to find out if you could pull it off. Good luck!!!

ripsessionkites - 15-1-2010 at 02:07 AM

THERE IS NO MONEY IN KITES. Just the enjoyment, and the smiles you put on ours.

I see kiteshops / kite brands fail all the time, because they arent willing to put money into the sport, advertising, r&d, service, etc etc etc.

In the past x years i've run a distribution and partnered up to run a shop (brick / online). I've failed twice, and lost more than i've made. Now after x years, im just starting to break even at the end of the year.

Honestly through its hard work, and its more of passion than profit. I work my regular job at 8+ hours, than work another 8+ hours boxing kites, talking to customers (email / u2u / phone / skype) 4+ hours riding on the weekend (me time). Hence my addition to REDBULL & Coffee.

I love every minute of it, with all the great people I get to meet, the freebies I hand out. Helping to grow the sport, getting sponsored, enjoyment, speed, skirt wearing ... etc etc. The last thing that comes to mind is the profit.

bobalooie57 - 15-1-2010 at 03:12 AM

"NOTE: Until further notice, all Ozone products are on permanent, perpetual back-order. Wait times for delivery might be from a week or two to a month or more. We apologize for the inconvenience but this is due to US supply-chain issues with the Ozone brand and is out of our control. Thank you in advance for your patience and understanding. "

Quoted from indigo_wolf, who quoted from Coastal Wind Sports, I never can get the quote thingy to work.

Still want to run a kite shop?

lives2fly - 15-1-2010 at 04:27 AM

Yeah good luck with this if you do try. - And you will need A LOT of capital to get going.

Me and a friend tried to get an outdoor sports shop going about 7 years ago. We put about 30,000 UK pounds (around $50,000 at the time) into stocking it and we still had no way near enough diversity to attract decent volumes of customers. Stock costs so much! have you ever thought how much it costs to hold a range of walking boots? All those different sizes!!

We had really good plans to diversify and start stocking kayaking gear/kites/boards/surfing stuff/yachting stuff. We were going to invite small local dealers (mostly guides and instructors who also sold a limited range of gear) to rent shop space from us and also to deal with their bookings etc and provide advertising (for a fee)

We just didn't have the money though - or the turnover to borrow it! The business (like most start-ups, failed in a year.

On the flipside it was the best job I ever had, spending all day surrounded by climbing and camping gear and chatting to all the outdoor enthusiasts.

I had hardly any money but that was made up for by access to cheap gear - which is what i spend all my money on anyway! + a constant stream of people to go and do stuff with (and get rides off cos i couldn't afford to run a car!)

Its my perfect job and I have a lot more business experience now. All that tells me is how hard it would be though!

acampbell - 15-1-2010 at 08:08 AM

I'm late to this thread but I will not try to quote any one post above because they are all spot on.

There are some that think that on-line shops have some un-fair advantage over B&M stores because we do not pay rent. An on-line shop, if done properly, has ALL other the expenses. Insurance, accounting, taxes, inventory, office supplies,...it goes on. While an on-line shop has no rent, it does not benefit from foot traffic and the spontaneous purchases that result in a well placed B&M. Sure there is something like it maybe when someone gets excited by a YouTube and then goes to a kite site to get involved, but I do not think it is the same as feeling the ripstop in your hands in a shop with a good salesperson to answer questions in real time and feed the excitement. At least that's what happened to me years ago in a kite shop in East Germany (and they guy could barely speak English).

If I were to go B&M, it would be...
1) When the economy turned around
2) Where I could locate it in a shop exposed to our local coastal tourist traffic
3) Where power kites would be a back seat to profitable stuff like beachwear, air toys, general family kite gear, surf and sand gear and other general beach related sport gear.
4) When I could afford right off the bat to hire a properly compensated #2 to take enough responsibility that I am not behind the counter all the time.
5) When I win the lottery or when my other business is profitable enough to plow enough cash into the shop without hurting the home life.

...so it will be a little while. Right now I hope only to build a book of business such that after I retire from my day job I can click off a little extra income for a few years until I decide to sell it to the right person as a modest asset.

mgatc - 15-1-2010 at 11:02 AM

Modest asset? Dang Angus, you mean us SoFKA boys haven't been paying your rent? :lol:

sp4cem0nkey - 15-1-2010 at 12:46 PM

Thank you everyone for your candid response. I must say I'm slightly disappointed, but not surprised.
And the career search goes on...

acampbell - 15-1-2010 at 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mgatc
Modest asset? Dang Angus, you mean us SoFKA boys haven't been paying your rent? :lol:

Ooooh, you all have paid. You have paid. And I thank you all!! :yes:

Insect0man - 16-1-2010 at 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Ooooh, you all have paid. You have paid. And I thank you all!! :yes:

Yes. Via pay-pal - and billed when the product ordered isn't even in country, let alone in [your] inventory.

You do realize you're not supposed to bill until you ship, right?

I'm being patient. I emailed and asked for your price on an alternate product you suggested.

Per email receipt, you read (or at leasted opened) my email at 0500 this am - and then I see you spent all day messaging here on PKF - but didn't bother to respond to a paying customer.

That's not going to "build a book of business", is it?

furbowski - 16-1-2010 at 10:21 PM

:megan: on the online manners above.

tom kite - 16-1-2010 at 10:29 PM

we have a B&M kiteboarding shop in my town and i marvel at how they manage to stay in business--i went to look at some snowboards there last week knowing that i could get anything in their store alot cheaper on the internet......to tell the truth,id pay a little more for something if the sellers were friendly and i could get some good advice along with my purchase, but these folks only seemed interested in making a sale--tough luck for them, i guess--my $$$ are going somewhere else.......

Insect0man - 16-1-2010 at 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bobalooie57
"NOTE: Until further notice, all Ozone products are on permanent, perpetual back-order. "

Bummer.

Is this Ozone "backorder" situation industry wide - or just unique to the referenced web retailer?

Insect0man - 16-1-2010 at 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by furbowski
:megan: on the online manners above.

I've been transacting online for years. Financing a phantom inventory by billing customer's creditcards prior to shipment is piss poor business manners.

Internet commerce is a sword that has two edges.

Future "Kite shop" owners take note. It's just bidness, so RUN IT LIKE ONE.

furbowski - 16-1-2010 at 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insect0man

Internet commerce is a sword that has two edges.

agreed.

the tolerance and patience of those I have transacted with here has been nothing short of phenomenal. (bigkid?)

Insect0man - 16-1-2010 at 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by furbowski
the tolerance and patience of those I have transacted with here has been nothing short of phenomenal. (bigkid?)

I was billed for both the item and express shipping. Pay Pal may be a little different, but billing against a credit card upon order receipt - instead of upon shipping - is not only piss poor business manners but also, IIRC, illegal.

It really chaps my arse to find my credit card has been dinged for the full amount when the product isn't even in country.

I'm tolerant. I'm patient. But I expect to at least receive a "I'm checking into it" reply; especially when the retailer in question has time to be spent yacking here on PKF.

The online reviews go with the "book of business".

furbowski - 16-1-2010 at 11:00 PM

I'm confident Angus will sort you out.

It's just that imho the time to name and shame is when things have been settled one way or another, which is why the :megan: above.

BeamerBob - 16-1-2010 at 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insect0man

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Ooooh, you all have paid. You have paid. And I thank you all!! :yes:

He made 6 posts between 6 and 8 pm EST. What else are you exaggerating about? Angus is pretty popular in the kite industry. You are the first person I've ever heard say a cross word about him. You might not understand what could trigger your "read receipt". Before trying to crush his business on the internet, maybe give him at least a portion of a business day to respond.

DAKITEZ - 16-1-2010 at 11:19 PM

I find this hard to believe. Angus is as good as they come.

Does anyone know Insectoman?

Insectoman wouldn't be short for jonesbad would it ???

power - 16-1-2010 at 11:34 PM

Lol :lol:

@Insectoman-Have you ever considered the fact that maybe your email was not the only one in Angus's mailbox this morning? I commonly read emails and then respond to them later because I don't have time at that moment. I can understand your frustration but you're being a bit harsh. Talk to maven454- he had to wait a few months for his kites just to get into the country, and then a couple more weeks until he got them. As to your question about ozone, it is industry wide, not the fault of a particular retailer.

furbowski - 16-1-2010 at 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DAKITEZ

Insectoman wouldn't be short for jonesbad would it ???

He seems to be the real deal, a snow kiter, legit email in his profile, just a bit quick off the mark with the :flaming:

Jonesbad isn't smart enough to establish a cover identity like this, methinks...

Insect0man - 16-1-2010 at 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
Angus is pretty popular in the kite industry.

I don't care how popular someone I do business with is. Premature billing of customer credit card accounts is piss poor business manners.

Furthermore, I'm not interested in playing games and financing the cash-flow of someone's hobby business while they work out their import issues. Some of Mr. Campbell's neighbors on Jekyll/Jupiter Island did essentially that, on a much larger scale, and put the global economic engine in the toilet in the process. It's not acceptable.

My credit card company policy requires shipment before transfer of funds. Apparently "Pay-pal" enables an end-run around that policy by transferring funds immediately.

So noted; and that's the last time I ever transact with a merchant who requires pay-pal.

Burn me once shame on you - burn me twice, shame on me.

furbowski - 16-1-2010 at 11:38 PM

I'm sure Angus will clear this up... but it's well after midnight on a Saturday over there, I wouldn't expect a miracle.

furbs, out.

Insect0man - 16-1-2010 at 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by power
I don't have time at that moment.

That argument is negated by the fact the retailer in question had time to post on PKF numerous times today - after the email was opened at 0500.

How long do bricks and mortar retailers, who blow off customers in their store, stay in business?

power - 16-1-2010 at 11:48 PM

Give it a day. He will clear this up. He doesn't have a good reputation for nothing.

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by B-Roc
The only way to make a little money in the kiting business is to start with a lot of money. ;-)

What, you mean Capitalism requires, gasp, CAPITAL?

Surely you jest. Everybody knows the post-modern norm is to finance one's "business" via smoke, mirrors, and other people's debt.

"Everybody does it that way" so that must make it right - right?

ripsessionkites - 17-1-2010 at 01:44 AM

Quote:

Apparently "Pay-pal" enables an end-run around that policy by transferring funds immediately.

I dont think paypal automatically bills your CC right away. from my understand as a merchant you need to authorize the transaction first. thats if you run a merchant/business account. some online retailers use a personal account??? why i have no idea.

same with our CC Machine (i love my iphone, mobility), we can re-authorize for payment to clean funds first or hold funds on your CC until your item arrives if not instock. From there we hit the $ Button and your transaction is completed.

BigMikesKites - 17-1-2010 at 06:57 AM

Quote:

Is this Ozone "backorder" situation industry wide - or just unique to the referenced web retailer?

This is Ozone in general. I'm having problems with them as well.

kiteNH - 17-1-2010 at 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insect0man
That argument is negated by the fact the retailer in question had time to post on PKF numerous times today - after the email was opened at 0500.

What kind of a freak checks on read receipts to their kite shop and then cries when they haven't gotten a response within a few hours. You ought to try to relax a little bit and go find something to cheer you up.

Also its PISS POOR MANNERS to air out your grievances and bad mouth someone on the interweb when you haven't even had a chance to talk to him about it yet. Why don't you pick up the phone like an adult and call him to sort it out. My bet is that if you hike up your training pants and handle this like an adult that Angus will find a way to make you happy. Then again for some people that just isn't possible.

I guess this is exhibit B on the joys of running a kite shop.

acampbell - 17-1-2010 at 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insect0man

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Ooooh, you all have paid. You have paid. And I thank you all!! :yes:

Wow a lot can happen when you try and get some sleep. Thanks all for the nice comments and encouragement.

Bill, sometimes even my most reliable suppliers do not have stock. That's why I called so many places in the US and overseas on your behalf and offered you replacements/ alternatives, some at more favorable prices , even.

Your order for the kite leash is canceled and refunded. Good day to you, sir.

Anyone want to go fly a kite?

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 08:11 AM

Quote:

I dont think paypal automatically bills your CC right away. from my understand as a merchant you need to authorize the transaction first.

I checked my creditcard log online. Either way, the transaction has been billed and that's not acceptable.

Again, for the benefit of those considering "running a kite shop" - I don't have a problem waiting for a product - as long as I'm told up front that it's not in stock and there will be a delay.

However, when we click the "Add to Cart" button, there is a reasonable expectation, having not been notified otherwise, that the vendor actualy has a product to put into the cart.

Making that representation, billing a credit card immediately, and then failing to deliver product is simply dishonest. That's not acceptable - even if "everybody in the industry does it".

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kiteNH
I guess this is exhibit B on the joys of running a kite shop.

"Running a kite shop" implies having shelves, having inventory on those shelves, and engaging in commerce with customers in an honest and timely manner.

Running a web cart and billing credit cards for phantom dropshipped inventory is not, IMHO, "Running a kite shop".

Lesson learned? Pay the tax and go local.

acampbell - 17-1-2010 at 08:48 AM

For the record, customer's credit cards are charged right away as far as I can tell and there is no need for me to authorize. I don not enable the inventory feature on my e-commerce engine that would tell customers of stock status because it is misleading. I can usually deliver "out of stock" items faster than many retailers can deliver items sitting on their shelves.
In true out-of-stock situations I always let the customer know right away and offer alternatives if appropriate, as I did in this case. Refunds are always given cheerfully, but that does not have to happen often, even when offered.

Right now my only supply issues (bedsides the HQ leashes), are with Ozone products and I have several waiting for harnesses or Turbo bars. I may have to refund those as Ozone cannot even tell me when they will be in.

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 08:54 AM

Quote:

customer's credit cards are charged right away as far as I can tell

Good to know about Paypal. Thanks Angus.

BigMikesKites - 17-1-2010 at 09:18 AM

Insectoman,

The kite industry….the Power kite industry in particular is a very unique segment which is not widely popular, though it is increasing all the time. If you ever look at a map of kite shops, you will find them primarily on the coasts as that is where most people ‘think about wanting to fly a kite’. And then, most of them don’t know a thing of 2 line kites, let alone 4 line Power kites.

If you are local to one of those kite shops, do business with them. They will probably be able to get what you want and you will have someone who knows about kites that you can talk to and learn from. Most importantly, you want to help keep them in business so they will be there for you when you need them.

If you are not local to one of the kite shops, then that is where most of the internet retailers on this forum come in. We are all enthusiasts who thoroughly test the products you are buying. Chances are, we can help you with your questions because we have first hand experience with the product(s) you are asking about. What we may not know, can usually be found in this forum.

I was lucky in the beginning to have a kite shop just 65 miles from me. But she only carried single line kites and could order from one Power Kite manufacturer. But she did not fly and didn’t have the answers to my questions. Even she didn’t have the sales to keep her shop running and now sells out of a cargo trailer on weekends set up in a dirt field.

I also started ordering Power kites from Dino here and have since had good service from Angus as well. They are situated on the West and East coasts respectively and there really wasn’t anyone near me in Dallas to help me with Kiting. So I started selling on my own. I spend time demo-ing kites to people, letting them fly them to see how they are. I spend time at festivals and flea markets getting my name out there. I have a ski shop who routes questions about kites my way. I am still amazed that any ski shop can survive in Dallas where we get snow maybe once a year and have not even the smallest of bunny slopes anywhere.

As for stocking the shelves, even the brick and mortar store will not have everything possible. They can get it for you, but they don’t stock everything. They stock only the best selling items. This is the same for the internet stores. Unless they are a distributor of the item, it would be a mistake to think that they have exactly the kite you want at that minute. Especially when there are so many types, sizes, and colors available.

HQ for example has over 1100 items on their sales sheet. 60 of those are 2, 3, and 4 line foil kites. That is $21,000 in inventory just to stock one of each of those 2, 3, and 4 line kites. Let alone the 2 line stunt kites. And multiple manufacturers. At least HQ limits each line as there is generally one color / size. And at times HQ will not have the item at the distributor or even the manufacturer level. Especially when an item is new. When you get into Peter Lynn for example, most kites come in 2 or 3 different color schemes. So now you have multiplied your product availability by 3. Their product line contains over 200 models of kites and would require $120,000 of inventory to be fully stocked. Now $100,000 in inventory is fine if you are moving product at a decent pace, but with Power kites, a customer might buy one now, then won’t be back for a year for their next one. If you had $100,000 in inventory, you would be a distributor. And the thing is, distributors like Ozone here don’t carry much of their product. Back to the stocking what sells thing.

Nobody stocks everything they can sell you. Not the Brick / Mortar, not the online guys. They are there to provide you a service. To help get you what you want in a timely fashion and to answer your questions. Most of the Manufacturers (Peter Lynn, HQ, Revolution, Flexifoil) are very good about having items in stock and get them out the door very quickly. Others we have seen have their issues (Ozone) which may or may not be the distributors fault. I have no way of knowing what the supply chain is like for them from across the pond.

Therein lies the other problem with our sport. Most of the manufacturers are overseas. Revolution and New Tech Kites are the only two I am aware of that are US based. Revolution kites are in a league of their own and not really Power Kites, though some of their models do very well in that role, and New Tech hasn’t quite made it as big as the other guys but they do have some ok kites. But I believe all but Revolution are sewn in china or Vietnam! It’s a fact we must deal with.

I’m sure your shop is trying to find out about your product from the manufacturer, but on a weekend, he will get nothing from them. And if he has to find out anything from Ozone, he won’t get a response from them in at least a week if at all. That is just how it is with Ozone right now. The last thing any of us want is a customer who is unhappy.

You have the opportunity to go anywhere you want for business. If you live near a kite shop, you need to go there. If you live near one of the online guys, you need to go there as you can meet with them and fly with them. Having a flying buddy is probably one of the main reasons I got into this. I’ve sold to a bunch of people local to me who are my flying buddies when I go flying. These guys met each other through me (a lot of which I didn’t know before) and now they are flying buddies with each other even when I’m not flying. That is the Value that we provide. Something you wont get from ordering from somewhere far away.

If you must order from far away, then we are still here for you to answer questions and talk shop. If you need the part, stick with him, I’m sure he is doing his best. Any one of us would have the same issue if it is a manufacturer or distributor problem.

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
In true out-of-stock situations

Welcome to the "Just in time" globalized food chain.

The product was recommended by HQ and I "found" the product at your "shop" by googling the product code they gave me.

It is a reasonable expectation, manifested from the experience of dealing with many on-line vendors over many years, that clicking the "add to cart" button does just that - adds the item from SOMEBODY's physical/virtual inventory to the shopping cart for order fulfilment.

In this case, that expectation was unfounded - and perhaps even exploited?

The reliability of an "inventory feature" is proportional to the ability of the vendor/mfg to communicate and control their inventory.

My observation is that most vendors have the "inventory feature" turned ON.

BeamerBob - 17-1-2010 at 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell

Bill, sometimes even my most reliable suppliers do not have stock. That's why I called so many places in the US and overseas on your behalf and offered you replacements/ alternatives, some at more favorable prices , even.

Your order for the kite leash is canceled and refunded. Good day to you, sir.

Anyone want to go fly a kite?

Spot on Angus! This order was like a date that was bad from the beginning. Just get out any way and as quickly as you can. I'm quite offended at all the accusations of impropriety and dishonesty. This thread is like ones we used to have up until a few months ago. Hmmm. Maybe a relative?:ticking:

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Akulakat
As for stocking the shelves, even the brick and mortar store will not have everything possible. They can get it for you, but they don’t stock everything.

Akulakat, thank you for your thoughtful response. I realize power kiting is presently a niche market. I'd like to see it mature and reach its potential as a sustainable means of recreation.

Reaching that potential, however, means the supply chain must mature as well; and that means adequate, predictable, inventory control.

I've run a small mfg company that produced electronic medical devices for respiratory care - under the jurisdiction of the FDA - for whom every component and product in the supply chain must be tracked. So I know the challenges involved in inventory control - both as a seller and as a consumer of parts required for manufacture.

Those challenges can be met; but not with excuses.

Regarding "stocking the shelves" - the issue is one of advertising. When a bricks and mortar store posts an advertisement for a given product, they have to HAVE IT STOCKED - otherwise, the law generally frowns upon the practice characterized as "bait and switch".

In the Internet world, "advertising" often means having a product produce a search engine hit - as was produced when I googled "HQ 119422 Kite Leash", and "found" it at Angus' shop.

Bait and switch? Probably not.

Poor, immature inventory control though? - self evidently so.

"doood, where's the container car" ain't gonna cut it. ;-)

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
[I'm quite offended at all the accusations of impropriety and dishonesty.

FACT: Product was advertised on website and "added to cart" without notification of backorder status.

FACT: Credit Card was billed; product was not shipped.

REASONABLE ASSUMPTION: Vendor is utilizing Paypal automatic transfer policy to "float" inventory related cash flow.

So, Bob, you think it acceptable to finance phantom inventory using other people's debt?

The policy of the Credit Card company I use, requiring physical shipment before funds transfer, exists for a reason.

The Fair Credit Act, exists for a reason.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre28.shtm

Maybe you disagree with those reasons. I don't.

kiteNH - 17-1-2010 at 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insect0man
FACT: Product was advertised on website and "added to cart" without notification of backorder status.

FACT: Credit Card was billed; product was not shipped.

REASONABLE ASSUMPTION: Vendor is utilizing Paypal automatic transfer policy to "float" inventory related cash flow.

So, Bob, you think it acceptable to finance phantom inventory using other people's debt?

Hey bug man are you done hijacking the thread yet? Maybe you should go find some credit card policy forum to post on because I can tell you that nobody here cares. And that you look like an idiot right now carrying on and on about a premature charge for a friggin $50 dollar kite leash. Get over it already. Go fly a kite or something.

bigkid - 17-1-2010 at 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sp4cem0nkey
I've recently come to the conclusion that what I do for a living and what I went to college for no longer interests me.....................Kinda wish I had inquired about it...

This got interesting rather quickly. sp4cem0nkey, if the idea of making money is at all in your kite business thoughts, you are in the wrong business. Everyone and anyone in this business is in it for the love of the sport not the money. As a General Contractor by day and a kite business owner the rest of my life, I make about $.42 an hour for ALL the time I put onto the construction business. The kites actually cost me more than $1200.00 per month just to keep in business with what the kites and stuff bring in. The Festivals, outings, demo's, website, taxes, etc, let alone the customers from hell, (not that I have ever had one), brings in NO money but costs money. I do the kite business because of the look on the faces of new customers that are being dragged across the field for the 1st time.
There is not a customer out there that can afford to pay what it really cost for one of these kites. If I could only charge every time for the question that a customer asks or someone who wants my time for free.
The love of the sport. Take it or leave it.

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kiteNH
Hey bug man are you done hijacking the thread yet?

Credit, inventory, cash flow, and customer service are issues that are quite relevant to anyone familiar with the realities of running a business; thus my comments on this thread are completely germaine to the subject of "Running a kite shop".

Quote:

Originally posted by kiteNH
about a premature charge for a friggin $50 dollar kite leash

It's a matter of principle. Principles - do you know what those are? Got a moral compass up there in NH? Is it calibrated or spinning?

How are the principles of honesty and integrity, as applied and violated in the Sub-Prime liar loan fiasco, working out for the global economic infrastructure?

50 dollar kite leash? Same violation of principle, smaller scale. "everybody does it" is no excuse; and the principles folks apply in the little transactions often reveals the character of how they'll behave in larger ones.

Fair and equitable commerce has certain requirements. Deal with it, or go fly your NyLon kite into Boston Harbor.

tom kite - 17-1-2010 at 11:19 AM

im going out to fly again 4th day in a row--all the rest of you, can think of how much fun im having while you're posting all day long YAWN....... cheers HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tom kite
im going out to fly again 4th day in a row

Ah see, that's where technology can create an illusion. I'm posting this wirelessly from my car; parked at my latest exploratory kite field... while waiting for the wind to come up.

Whispering up to 3mph now. Be flying the Hydra 350 soon I hope. Unless things dramaticaly pick up though, probably won't get the Neo2 11m into the air... again.

Need something in between the 350 and Neo2 11m; alas if only I'd received an email response, I'd probably have ordered a 5m scout from Angus, in addition to the backordered leash. But...:moon:

=========
Now it's calm.

Maybe next time I should bring my mountain bike? Riding it always seems to be a sure fire way of generating a head wind. :tumble:

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Akulakat
Therein lies the other problem with our sport. Most of the manufacturers are overseas.

It's not a problem that's limited to our sport; but a general flaw in post-modern economics.

Communist Chinese "Capitalism", isn't.

Utilization of Communist Chinese slave labor has nearly destroyed American manufacturing, and along with it will go the buying power of the American consumer public... who have stupidly financed the Communist Chinese via unprecedented debt...

In the process consumerism is being transformed into mercantilism via a globalized version of the "Company Store".

Jefferson nailed it 200+ years ago:

"COMMERCE BETWEEN MASTER AND SLAVE IS DESPOTISM"

Are we {back} there yet?

========
Ack! Wind is still completely calm. Time to abandon the field and go to plan B. ATB, gravity, a big hill, and my feet will provide the day's entertainment...

power - 17-1-2010 at 12:16 PM

You've been on this forum for 12 days now. 16 out of your 23 posts have been made on this thread discussing something unrelated to whether or not running a kite shop is a good job or not. We get your point. Its one thing to make a comment about the way you feel about a business, its another thing to write an essay about how to run a business properly on a forum geared towards powerkites. If you care that much about business management, why don't you join a forum where people are intersted in that same subject?

BigMikesKites - 17-1-2010 at 12:41 PM

Quote:

If I could only charge every time for the question that a customer asks or someone who wants my time for free.

Amen, Brother.

shehatesmyhobbies - 17-1-2010 at 12:56 PM

It's time for INSECTICIDE! For him to continue this bashing of a well known well respected member of this forum is ridiculous!

Angus your rep is safe here with us, I am curious if this guy Insectoman is representing the kiting community in a positive way.

Insectoman Sorry you did not get your leash in the amount of time that you thought to be reasonable, whatever that may be.

Spacemonkey, you have got to have the passion, patience, as well as the cash flow to move the kites. Could you imagine if this guy was your first customer, you would be running for the door!

Power, you beat me to that one!
Happy winds to the rest of you guys!

I choose to edit part of my original post for my own satisfaction! No Guarantee!

acampbell - 17-1-2010 at 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Akulakat

Quote:

If I could only charge every time for the question that a customer asks or someone who wants my time for free.

Amen, Brother.

Here is some irony. What seems to have first set off Insecto was my failure to respond to his last e-mail in a timely manner. He responded to my last e-mail with a question about static flying de-power kites, and this was near midnight Friday. Saturday I was away from my desk most of the day but had some downtime to make some quick posts on PKF from my iPhone. His question would have taken several paragraphs to answer and I was happy to do so, but I am not a teen that can text as fast as type, so it would have to wait till I'm at my desk. I get home Saturday late, have to feed and walk the dogs, get dinner (wife is away, so more chores) and watch the news. I figure I can catch up on e-mails Sunday morning. I wake up this morning and see the carnage on this thread and I'm like WTF?

Yes I give freely of my time and answer questions from customers and would be customers, but ON my time.

BeamerBob - 17-1-2010 at 01:56 PM

Insect o man, I assure you that Angus didn't reach any break even points by "floating" your $50 purchase. Most folks on here know he gets things out to you fast or he lets us know what the shipment time is if he doesn't have it. He is as ethical and customer service oriented a web retailer as you will find. He couldn't be well respected in this community if he was running a ponzi scheme on the shoulders of his customers. He just offers good customer service and friendly advice to promote the sport. Would he have all the original tutorial material free for your perusal if he was in this to be able to float order funds like Amazon.com? Obviously, you must be happy now with the full and prompt return of your "funds", so you hardly have anything to complain about any longer.

Having a degree in Marketing and Logistics, it is easy for me to understand why a kite shop wouldn't inventory every item they offer to customers in every size/color combination available from each of their companies they sell for. I guess it isn't so obvious to you. If you could realize that not a single power kite retailer here got into the business in order to get rich, you would see how silly your skepticism really is. There was one that got into it for the money once and he doesn't even fly kites anymore. He got in for the wrong reasons and it failed.

william_rx7 - 17-1-2010 at 02:21 PM

Sheesh, what the heck happened to this forum?
Somebody quick, re-start the LEI / Foil debate : )

acampbell - 17-1-2010 at 04:31 PM

This just got funnier. Only thing is, I could have shut this thread down sooner had I remembered but I was so taken aback this morning. Here is an excerpt from an Email I sent Insectoman on thursday night, where in two places I offered a complete refund...

++++++++++
BestKiteboarding is nearby and I can get these by early next week, or you could order direct from them maybe faster and I can refund your order. It is just not quite as long stretched (about 63" as opposed to 75"), but is pretty reasonably priced
http://www.bestkiteboarding.com/s.nl/it.A/id.595/.f

If you know another ready source to get what you need faster, please go ahead and I can refund. I am sorry for making what should be such a simple transaction so difficult.

+++++++++++

furbowski - 17-1-2010 at 05:23 PM

:lol:

most entertaining thread of the year (so far) imao!

i'm not sure I want to imagine the kind of character it would take to top this one tho.... :evil::alien::puzzled:

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
I could have shut this thread down sooner had I remembered

You could have preempted the thread entirely by responding to my simple query regarding what your price for the bestboarding leash would be.

How hard would that have been?

Instead, you ignored it; and did so after having already charged my CC - which I didn't realize had been done until I looked at my CC registry online yesterday.

You offered to reverse a transfer of funds that a well behaving vendor wouldn't have made in the first place. Whether the item is $50.00 or $5,000.00 the principle is still the same - honest vendors don't take funds until the product is shipped.

You will also recall that I had to email you and ask what the status of "ordered" meant.

Your website represented the product as being available; it gave no indication the item had to be "ordered" for you to fulfill your part of the transaction.

You accepted funds for a transaction YOU had not fulfilled. You made no effort to contact me and tell me the item was back ordered - I HAD TO CONTACT YOU; and if I hadn't done so, there's no telling how long I'd have sat waiting sans product while you enjoyed the benefit of using my funds.

Maybe in your worldview that behavior is ethical - in mine it's NOT.

action jackson - 17-1-2010 at 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by furbowski
:lol:

most entertaining thread of the year (so far) imao!

I see more like this biggest a-hole of month! But I find this true with quite a few Hamm operators N7PWC !........aj

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by action jackson
I see more like this biggest a-hole of month!

I'd love to see what kind of a "a-holes" some of the commentators on this thread would be if they went into a bricks and mortar kite shop, paid for an item in cash, were handed a bag - and then when they got home, discovered the item they paid for was not in the bag but instead a rock with a note saying "ordered" tied to it.

Bottom line - IF YOU TAKE THE CASH, PUT THE PRODUCT IN THE BAG! How simple is that?

BeamerBob - 17-1-2010 at 06:10 PM

For insectman to say anything other than "Oops sorry for the confusion and smearing your name without merit" just shows how low a being he is. Lets see how much further he digs.

acampbell - 17-1-2010 at 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insect0man

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
I could have shut this thread down sooner had I remembered

You could have preempted the thread entirely by responding to my simple query regarding what your price for the bestboarding leash would be.

It (the price) was right there in the link I sent you with the opportunity for you to buy it yourself and me refund your purchase cheerfully.

Feeling kind of stupid are we? Are we punk?

action jackson - 17-1-2010 at 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insect0man

Quote:

Originally posted by action jackson
I see more like this biggest a-hole of month!

It looks to me, that you took your rock, and decided to smoke it! Get a life dude, Angus is a great guy!...aj

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBobHaving a degree in Marketing and Logistics

MBA = More Bullshyte Ahead. Thanks for confirmation, Bob.

If you take the cash, put the product in the customer's bag.

Simple, see? No degree required.

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
[It (the price) was right there in the link I sent you with the

I asked YOU what YOUR price would be. More, less, whatever.

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
"Punk".

Observe, kiddies, how NOT to "build a book of business". :lol:

Better keep that day job for a while.

PrairieWind - 17-1-2010 at 06:37 PM

I think this insect dude needs a leash alright. A very short one that will keep him away from the keyboard for a wee while.

acampbell - 17-1-2010 at 06:46 PM

Here is the email to Bill Burke. Dealers are asking me for his name so they can keep a look out . This is the e-mail where he said that my efforts to find an alternate source were OK

OK here

No worries ;-) Thanks for the update Angus.

Have a great day.

=Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: Angus Campbell
To: William Burke
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: Re 1697932267

Oooops, sorry Bill; I was to have dropped you a note to tell you that these new leashes are inbound to me from HQ and will be here tomorrow. I normally stock all common control gear components and accessories, but these are new products just out. I will ship immediately via Priority Mail and that will be just two days for you. Sorry for not communicating sooner. You will get confirmation and tracking e-mail when it hits the mail system.
Thanks for your business.
Fair Winds
Angus

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbellThis is the e-mail where he said that my efforts to find an alternate source were OK

Keep digging that "Book", Angus old boy.

The issue isn't alternate sourcing. The issue is taking cash for a product you DIDN'T DELIVER.

At the time I said "no worries" I didn't realize you'd dinged my CC. I discovered that last night just before I saw you'd been posting here on PKF... but hadn't bothered to reply to the Email you'd read at 0500 yesterday morning.

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
I was to have dropped you a note

Maybe you was but fact is you didn't. And you should have BEFORE dinging my CC for the undeliverable product.

DON'T TAKE THE CASH UNTIL YOU PUT THE PRODUCT IN THE BAG

Simple, See?

Maybe you just need some repetition for learning reinforcement. Now repeat after me:

I WILL NOT TAKE THE CASH UNTIL THE PRODUCT IS IN THE BAG
I WILL NOT TAKE THE CASH UNTIL THE PRODUCT IS IN THE BAG
I WILL NOT TAKE THE CASH UNTIL THE PRODUCT IS IN THE BAG
I WILL NOT TAKE THE CASH UNTIL THE PRODUCT IS IN THE BAG
I WILL NOT TAKE THE CASH UNTIL THE PRODUCT IS IN THE BAG
I WILL NOT TAKE THE CASH UNTIL THE PRODUCT IS IN THE BAG
I WILL NOT TAKE THE CASH UNTIL THE PRODUCT IS IN THE BAG
I WILL NOT TAKE THE CASH UNTIL THE PRODUCT IS IN THE BAG
I WILL NOT TAKE THE CASH UNTIL THE PRODUCT IS IN THE BAG

:lol:

DAKITEZ - 17-1-2010 at 07:00 PM

Seriously bro squash it ...GO FLY A KITE and relax a little. Whats done is done. You got your money back and you learned you don't like to use paypal. At the end of the day its all good.

PrairieWind - 17-1-2010 at 07:51 PM

dude, you got your (plastic) cash back. Get your short leash and step away from the keyboard. Step away from the keyboard.

power - 17-1-2010 at 07:57 PM

He's going through withdrawal, lets help him out.

tom kite - 17-1-2010 at 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DAKITEZ
Seriously bro squash it ...GO FLY A KITE and relax a little. Whats done is done. You got your money back and you learned you don't like to use paypal. At the end of the day its all good.

angus is a good guy so let it go dude.....there are WAY to many people on here that need to do a little kiting and relieve some stress......now get your ARSES OUT THERE!!!! YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!:wee:

WELDNGOD - 17-1-2010 at 07:58 PM

I for one would like to point out that this is not the proper place for this. And it is very disrespectful to the Original poster, who had a legitimate thread going. For the insect dude to turn this into a personal customer support whine line is ridiculous and just wrong. Apologies to sp4cem0nkey for the complete trashing of your thread,I know this isn't what you wanted to learn about the biz. I guess if ya work around the general public, your bound to run into people w/ attitude disorders and such. Comes w/ the job!

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PrairieWind
Get your short leash and step away from the keyboard. Step away from the keyboard.

{Al Pacino Voice -ON}

Trying... but... ahhhg! Just when I think I'm out.... they pull me back in!

{Al Pacino Voice -OFF}

power - 17-1-2010 at 09:10 PM

If you don't want to answer this, I understand, but on average, how many kites do you sell per day?

flexiblade - 17-1-2010 at 09:18 PM

Admin - if you would please, this needs to end. I just read this all beginning to end - should of all been done with u2u contacts and not on this thread. The thread could simply be reposted and started over - if a certain someone continues on their public tantrum then they can be properly dealt with. This is a forum of opinions that work towards further enlightening all its members, not a place to belittle and paint the walls with crap.

And really, over a kite leash?

furbowski - 17-1-2010 at 09:47 PM

^^^ (flexi's suggestion)

:thumbup:

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flexiblade
And really, over a kite leash?

Regardless if it's a $50.00 kite leash or a $5000 quiver of kites, the principle is the same.

Whether engaged in via the Internet or via Bricks and Mortar, the rules of good commerce are the same and apply in either context.

DON'T TAKE THE CASH UNTIL YOU PUT THE PRODUCT IN THE BAG

furbowski - 17-1-2010 at 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PrairieWind
Get your short leash and step away from the keyboard. Step away from the keyboard.

bigkid - 17-1-2010 at 10:48 PM

sp4cem0nkey, are you still around? Have you spent any $ yet on the new business? Don't let the customer from hell dictate your love of the sport, they come and they go. 99.9% of the people on this forum know who is who and will continue to do business as usual. I, myself would love to accommodate the pesky little bug if he wanted to buy from me, the Raid is in the bag at no charge, FREE.
Insect0man, We get it, We will place the item in the bag, ship it out and then charge your account. Oops, sorry I forgot, don't the stores make you pay before its in the bag?
Relax, breath deep and smell the bug spray...

Insect0man - 17-1-2010 at 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid
Oops, sorry I forgot, don't the stores make you pay before its in the bag?

My observation is that generally the items are placed in the bag as they're rung up; then I pay for them and they let me take the bag out of the store.

Maybe stuffing the items under your shirt and sneaking out of the store is more your style? Perhaps that's why you can't remember how it works.

"bidness as usual", yeah, I hear some folks are real excited about the sub-prime enterprise returning to "bidness as usual" too - but that doesn't make it any more ethical than it's ever been. It is what it is.

So you go ahead and do business as you see fit. If and when the industry grows - the market, not you and the PKF fraternity, will decide which business practices it likes, or doesn't.

Amazon already appears to be testing the smaller power kite waters; and it's vendors are vetted by customer review -not by a good-ole-boy network that enjoys temporary control of a niche market.

And RAID? Wow, creative - NOT.

No terrorist threat style points for you! Mail white powder to any Federal agencies lately, super genius? :moon:

furbowski - 17-1-2010 at 11:47 PM

OK, it's time....

If I may suggest:

troll_feed2.jpg - 12kB

Insect0man - 18-1-2010 at 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by furbowski
If I may suggest:

Running a kite shop - Good Job? - furbowski 1-17-2010 at 11:47 PM
Running a kite shop - Good Job? - furbowski 1-17-2010 at 09:51 PM
Running a kite shop - Good Job? - furbowski 1-17-2010 at 09:47 PM
Running a kite shop - Good Job? - furbowski 1-17-2010 at 05:23 PM
Running a kite shop - Good Job? - furbowski 1-16-2010 at 11:38 PM
Running a kite shop - Good Job? - furbowski 1-16-2010 at 11:34 PM
Running a kite shop - Good Job? - furbowski 1-16-2010 at 11:00 PM
Running a kite shop - Good Job? - furbowski 1-16-2010 at 10:38 PM
Running a kite shop - Good Job? - furbowski 1-16-2010 at 10:21 PM

Practice what you preach, much, furballski?

Feeding that long unsatisfied desire to be the teachers pet, perhaps? Run along now and go water the sweatshop or something.

WIllardTheGrey - 18-1-2010 at 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by flexiblade
Admin - if you would please, this needs to end. I just read this all beginning to end - should of all been done with u2u contacts and not on this thread. The thread could simply be reposted and started over - if a certain someone continues on their public tantrum then they can be properly dealt with. This is a forum of opinions that work towards further enlightening all its members, not a place to belittle and paint the walls with crap.

And really, over a kite leash?

I also just read this from start to end, and agree 100%.

Reported

pkf - 18-1-2010 at 01:55 AM

PKF is not any kite shop's customer service desk. Please handle this via email. Your point has been taken and it appears the issue has been resolved. This hijacked thread is closed.