Power Kite Forum

Ice screws

cjules - 21-1-2010 at 03:44 PM

I know a lot of people use these to secure bars on frozen lakes during set up. My question is, how exactly are they used? Which part of the bar are you securing with the screw?

Bladerunner - 21-1-2010 at 03:54 PM

2 options I use

I simply hook my handles on it peg style. Brakes on.
I use a carabiner to hook in to my O.S. loops on the Flysurfer and set the bar behind the peg. I use the carabiner if I need to hook on to my safety with the arcs.

B-Roc - 21-1-2010 at 04:38 PM

I use it with a carabiner on a rope (rope to screw so I can pick the carabiner up). If on handles I hook the brake loops to the carabiner. If on a bar, I hook the chicken loop through the biner and also pull the steering line leaders down through the biner so they brake the kite and keep it on the ice.

lives2fly - 22-1-2010 at 03:02 AM

People really do that? Seems a bit over the top!

Never used one for a kite stake but I have used ice screws many times. I would guess the easiest thing to do would be to clib a krab through the eyelet and clip your kite to the krab.

I dont think i would buy a $100 ice screw just to stake a kite though.

As a tip, start the screw off by making a small hole (with your ice axe!) and then put the screw in and give it a couple of gentle taps (with the hammer on your ice tools!) then just screw it in

B-Roc - 22-1-2010 at 06:49 AM

In my experience, you won't need to make a small hole or tap an ice screw on lake ice. Since you can bear down on it and position a hand right over the screw they go in pretty easy. Maybe pre tapping is helpful when climbing but unnecessary on a lake, IMO.

One can get a decent ice srew in the states for $50-70. Its a cost for sure but much cheaper then losing a kite into trees, etc on lakes with little snow to use as weight to secure the kite while setting up and breaking down. I used to bring sandbags and they were just OK but if the surface was fast and smooth, the wind would blow the kite, llines and sandbags.

The icescrew was a great investment for total ease of mind and simplicity. Get one with a sheath or make one yourself out of PVC to cover the screw if transporting it on your person while riding.

krumly - 22-1-2010 at 07:41 AM

Look online and you'll find basic screws like Omega or Moser (without the speed crank) for 40-50 USD. Totally worth it - nothing else goes in and out of the ice so easily with such holding power. I have two - one stays at my 'base' and the other goes with me, along with a 'biner, in case I have to deal with the landing the kite away from the 'base.'


Bladerunner - you have any other reliable techniques for clipping the Arcs to the screw other than flagging to safety?


krumly

Bladerunner - 22-1-2010 at 07:47 AM

I only have 2 snow days under my belt since I was converted. Last year it was all Flysurfer.

I haven't tried yet but I thought a length of rope and hook it to the C.L. with a second 'biner. Let it just sit at Zenith , if the ice screw would hold ?

Good point about wanting 2 screws.

bmor - 22-1-2010 at 08:38 AM

I carry a screw all the time when out on the ice. If there isn't a lot of snow cover, which are our usual conditions, I don't know how else you would anchor a kite if you had to stop to sort a problem, especially in higher winds.

As others have said, with foils on handles hook the brake lines to the screw, if using a depower bar attach the brake strap. Inflatable bows can be solo launched and landed at the edge of the wind window on a screw.

I just started using an arc, a 16m V2, and have been thinking about the same anchoring issues. I know the V2 would happily sit at zenith on a screw. I recall someone mentioning it might be a good idea to have a second screw for the leash in case the first lets go. What I'm thinking of trying next time out is stalling the kite to the max to get it down and onto a screw. In lighter winds maybe it can just sit like that for a bit? Stronger winds may require moving to the kite quickly after securing to the screw and flagging it. It might not even be possible/safe in higher winds.

macboy - 22-1-2010 at 11:27 AM

I am of the 2 screw camp (was....lost one but will replace it). Usually carry one with me "just in case". Not that I always use them - last season we had a "parking lot" cleared right out on the lake so I'd just sling a rope around the tow hooks on my car and hook a biner to the brake loop on the Access.

The PLs haven't been tied down to a screw yet. I usually launch it and leave it until I'm ready to pack it in. If I need a break I just lay / sit down and let the kite bob. I tied the Guerilla off a few weeks ago but it was 'cuz I had a questionable back and wasn't sure if I was done or not. It bobbed there for 45 minutes. I DO however carry the screw with me when I'm out unless I'm confident that a ski stabbed in the snow could hold the kite on the leash. If it's the Access or the SA I'll always carry one. THe PLs flag out and struggle very little and can likely be held by a ski quite easily.

(Didn't really think of that Arc-benefit actually....even at rest "parked" the other foils have a good pull on them. If the Access is actually pulled right to safety it can still flip and reverse launch itself.)

doneski - 22-1-2010 at 11:39 AM

I use 2 6" screws; 1 for the chickenloop and 1 for my leash. I've had bungies and screws break in big gusts and having your leash on a separate screw just makes sense. Longer screws are nice but not needed. I also use the screws to test ice depth.

A very kind person sent me the following instructions for self launching with ice screws. This even works on sand with a dog leash screw.

Thanks to Rachael's (of kitestorm fame) patient coaching I am a PL user; old school Bombas and one Venom. I love 'em ! They are VERY easy to launch solo in winter on an ice screw. I'll try and describe how I launch..here is what I do: first, I have a VERY strong bungie type strap about 3ft long with a caribeener (SP?) on each end that clips into my ice screw. I also have a hard line that is very strong that is longer than the full stretch of the bungie with a firm loop-ring on the end, this is my fail-safe line so it has to be strong.

I unwrap my lines and walk them out 45 degrees to one side of the wind window or the other. I clip the depower loop (the loop that goes onto the spreader bar hook ) into the free end of the bungie cord with the caribeener (other end of the bungie cord is secured to the ice screw) . I clip my safety leash onto the hard line so in case the bungie snaps on lift-off I won't loose the kite. I make sure it is set in the mostly de-powered position with the adjuster strap, but not completely de-powered, unless it is really windy. If the wind is light, I give the strap a little more adjustment towards powered up.

I now know how far the far (downwind)edge of the kite will be from the bar if the kite is flat on the snow with the lines fully extended. I bring the kite out and lay it flat so that the downwind edge (farthest away from the bar) is nearest the corresponding line ends. I attach the lines on the UPWIND edge first and pull that end of the kite closer towards the bar so that it now flat with the downwind edge nearest the lines that are still free ...this gives the upwind lines a big loop of slack. (this is hard to describe but it makes sense once you do it once) Bury the upwind end of the kite in some snow or lay something heavy on that upwind edge while you re-check the lines. Now I go and attach the downwind edge lines. You have to be attentive here because it is easy to cross the lines if you are not careful because there is that extra loop of slack on the two upwind edge lines, but with a little practise, you'll get the hang of it. Do NOT inflate the kite yet as it becomes a beast once it gets air in it. Since it is all now attached to the ice screw it is not going to fly away.

With the kite deflated, I put in the sticks in. I check and close the deflate zipper...the kite will fill sorta if this is open but it won't stay inflated...it's easy to over-look this step.

After the kite is set up, but not yet inflated, I walk out the lines for a final check to make sure I have not crossed them.

Then I stand at the upwind end and to the outside of the lines and the kite with the leading edge of the kite in front of me. At the upwind end of the kite, I inflate the kite with the leaf blower (if I've remembered to bring it !) and with the wind, if I have not. Yes, getting it as fully inflated as possible is the key to a good launch. As the kite fills, the upwind end will start to be pulled downwind towards the other end taking up that slack it had in those two lines, just walk with it and the kite will start to fill and take shape. Be sure to not get tangled up in the lines as the kite fills and stay upwind of the kite. As this begins to happen, I stop what I'm doing and go grab what is now the "top" of the folded in half kite...walking down the leading edge to maintain control of the kite if I have to. I grab that end (the formerly downwind and now topside end) and 'mate" it with the other (formerly upwind and now the side closest to the snow)end of the kite so it is now "closed" to the wind but it can still inflate a bit more by the wind going into the windows along the leading edge.

The kite often gets itself ready and oriented towards the wind at this point so it is important to keep hold of it so you can bring it down if something is not right. Keeping those two ends together restricts the kite from taking shape and lifting, but it can be a handful as it WANTS to fly ! Once the kite is filled, and keeping it "closed" by keeping those ends together, zip up the intake zipper...this can be a little tricky on the Bombas cos it is now on the inside of the taco roll, but you do need to close the zips. This is a great time to give a final visual check down the lines to make sure they are tied on properly since you can see the whole thing all the way to the bar. If all is good, you can just take a step or two to the edge of the window and self launch by opening up the top half of the kite and the wind will fill the kite and lift it up...IMMEDIATELY so be extra careful you are not in the lines !

The kite should rise up smoothly , pull a little on the bungie and then settle into the zenith-neutral position all on its own. I get back to the bar and do a quick flying check while it is still clipped to the ice screw to see if it all feels right. If there are any problems, just bring it back down and sort it out. Then I get all my ski gear on and I'm ready for the final step. This gives the kite a little extra time to fully inflate with the wind if it was a little soft on lift-off. When I'm all set, I first remove the safety leash and clip that on to me, then pull down on the loop (ignore the bar for that moment) and usually you can pull it right onto the spreader bar hook in one easy motion and unclip the 'beener at the same time. Kite is in neutral and depowered so it is usually fairly easy. Grab the bar, adjust your power strap and you're ready to go.

The beauty of the PL kites is if you need to and if the wind is not too strong, you can come back and "park" the kite back on your ice screw bungie....no relaunching necessary ! Go have lunch, get a drink, help a buddie...the kite just sits there ! When you're ready, go get your "parked" kite and continue flying! Sweet !

Have fun !!

kiteNH - 22-1-2010 at 12:01 PM

If you need an ice screw you should hit up Rachael at http://www.stormboarding.com/gearshop.html

She sells ice screws with a rope and beaner attached. And she is the only kiteshop that I know of that sells ice screws. You can't beat the price of $50 for a 6" ice screw and you get to support a fellow kiter. I bought one this year and plan to pick up another at Kitestorm this year.

Also I tried the above screw assisted self launch earlier this season with my Synergy and it works great, though the winds were gusty so I ran back to get to the bar and get the kite under control. It was my first time launching and I was having trouble getting it to launch with the shifty winds.

macboy - 22-1-2010 at 01:18 PM

Thanks for that post. I have to admit - it took a while for the "why not just grab the bar and launch" thought to leave my head but it makes sense now why this would be a great way to not only launch and land but also to show everyone the beauty of the auto zenith.

Here's a question (from a courtesy standpoint for all of us): In a busy launch area where would you park your screw so you could just leave the kite bobbing at zenith while you had lunch so as not to anger or be in the way of any other kiters? Logic would say that upwind would be out of the way of incoming and outgoing kiters but if the wind drops and the kite follows you're in trouble. Not to mention you might create a bit of a disturbance in the air coming off your kite. Down wind and you'd def be in the way of an incoming kite.

Maybe best left for "soulo" sessions?

bmor - 22-1-2010 at 01:29 PM

Thanks for the info doneski, I'll give that a try next time. The wind where I launch can sometimes be shifty when light and I find the traditional "lay flat/lines at 45 degrees" method doesn't work so well. The kite has a tendency to flop around and twist or fold over. When the wind is stronger it doesn't seem to be a problem. I also want to not have to take a weight out with me to hold the kite down, if possible.

Another reason to use a second screw for the leash is that these kites fly really well on their own! I learned that a week ago when my harness buckle broke. I'm using an old Naish UDS spreader bar modified so I have a spinning leash connection, which is at the hook. When the buckle broke the spreader slid off the strap and the kite bar was ripped out of my hands. I watched in amazement as the kite just floated away with the bar hanging down about 15' from the snow. It was completely stable, just drifting away. It slowly came down and lucky for me someone who was watching drove their vehicle out and held the kite until I could get there. I was skating like mad on my skiis but don't think I could have caught it before it ran into something. So now I leash my spreader to part of the harness as backup.

macboy - 22-1-2010 at 03:17 PM

No way! Holy crap that must have been surreal! You shoulda called the news and said your little one was inside :lol:

kiteyakker - 22-1-2010 at 04:19 PM

Whoa, 45-50 bucks for an ice screw?? I picked up a couple on ebay for around 25 bucks or so, (a piece) used but in very good condition. I also carry one with me, if you need to stop out on a big lake, it is invaluable. Just don't make the mistake i did once. I only had one screw with me so after setting up, i unscrewed the screw from the ice and left. Wouldn't you know it, I needed to stop, and i had neglected to clean the ice out of the center of the screw, which made it pretty much impossible to screw the thing in, especially while trying to control my kite at the same time.

So if you use it and then decide to take it with you, remember to knock the ice out of it!

bmor - 22-1-2010 at 05:15 PM

Hahaha! That was a good one macboy!

Snow in the ice screw, have had the same problem. I find if I hold it tight in my bare hand 10-20 seconds that's enough to melt it out if it's stuck in there.

cjules - 22-1-2010 at 05:23 PM

thanks a ton for the info all. i took a lesson a couple weeks ago, paid $120/hr, and the guy acted like i was just wasting his time asking questions, waiting to be done so he could go ride. i pay 0$ for this forum and always get great advice. you guys rock.

Chris

Bladerunner - 22-1-2010 at 06:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kiteyakker
Whoa, 45-50 bucks for an ice screw?? I picked up a couple on ebay for around 25 bucks or so, (a piece) used but in very good condition. I also carry one with me, if you need to stop out on a big lake, it is invaluable. Just don't make the mistake i did once. I only had one screw with me so after setting up, i unscrewed the screw from the ice and left. Wouldn't you know it, I needed to stop, and i had neglected to clean the ice out of the center of the screw, which made it pretty much impossible to screw the thing in, especially while trying to control my kite at the same time.

So if you use it and then decide to take it with you, remember to knock the ice out of it!



GOOD POINT ! My new snowkite buddy just picked his up at one of our second hand sport shops for about $15 . Worth checking there 1st!!!

B-Roc - 22-1-2010 at 06:26 PM

I too got mine second hand for $25. I carry a lighter with me so I can heat the screw just enough to melt the ice plug out of it.

bigben91682 - 22-1-2010 at 06:29 PM

I just bought a set of 4 ice screws on ebay, and I'm only going to keep 2 of them. They are 7" titanium screws, I don't actually have them yet (tracking says I get them tomorrow) but they look decent in the pictures. I paid $80 for all 4 of them, if anybody wants one or both of the extras I'll sell them for $20 ea + ship....U2U me if you're interested or want more info. I'm going to list them in the 'for sale' section once I actually have them in my possession, but I'll give this thread first dibs :)

bigben91682 - 22-1-2010 at 06:30 PM

B-Roc: good call on the lighter, I'll have to remember that one.