Power Kite Forum

Riding upwind???

shaggs2riches - 7-2-2010 at 10:01 AM

So I've been quite successful at riding in both directions across the wind, I can quite easily move downwind as I just let off some of my edge on my board and kick my nose slightly in the direction I want to go. I just can't seem to make my way up wind though. I've tried to bring the kite higher in the window and then edge hard but eventually find myself just going straight again. Is there any sound advice one can give that will make things easier. Or is this just something that I will figure out as time goes on? Its just a pain in the ass to start out at my truck ride to one end of the lake and then back again only to have to walk the kite and my board 100-200 yards back up wind. I'm working with the Scorpion and the Access on this one by the way.

Thanks
Shaggs

BeamerBob - 7-2-2010 at 10:51 AM

I've found that it has alot to do with the ability of the kite, the strength of winds relative to the kites range, and how steady the wind is. You should be to the point where kite skills aren't an issue. Upwind is easier when your kite is well powered. Larger kites that are well powered seem to do better for me than small kites in nuking wind.

acampbell - 7-2-2010 at 11:39 AM

You will want the kite down low in the window and trimmed in for more speed than lift, so it sits father forward in the window. The Scorp should do real well at this. After that is is a matter of how much of an edge you can hold.

Bob's right; stronger wind improves upwind work to a point. But on some light wind days I go upwind only as it's the only way to keep the lines tight. Then as you build speed and apparent wind you can bear off more and regain land downwind.

carltb - 7-2-2010 at 06:09 PM

twist your hips and focus on a point just slightly up wind from you on every tack. plus the above advice^^^^

shaggs2riches - 7-2-2010 at 08:01 PM

Thanks guys!

I would have to say then that being under powered would be part of the situation then 25km/h with the 16m Scorp really seems to be the bottom of its range. Winds are really gusty where I am so the kite gets a lot of luff. I always thought that I had to hold the kite up high as to reduce side pull but that is obviously wrong. Next time I get out I will give these things a try. I'm sure though with time it will all come together. I'm happy that I have had as much success as I had thus far. Thanks guys!

Shaggs

macboy - 7-2-2010 at 11:37 PM

No, you should have no trouble surging upwind if you've got 25km/h clean. That's when the 15m Phantom comes ALIVE and I can start contemplating getting some day light on the bottoms of my skis. 18-25km/h I can stay upwind but it's only by working the kite and coordinating my edge.

I've worked my way back upwind in the buggy with my Access 10 in very marginal winds. I had to crank the crud out of it, let myself take a downwind loss to build up speed, move the kite up to zenith and use the momentum to then ease upwind. Net result was an upwind gain but it still took about 30 tacks to get 200 yards (pride kept me from walking....plus it was working so why not keep going?)

You on a board or skis? From my few attempts at the board I'd say it's harder to stay upwind with new-ish skills. (My board skills are DEF new-ish. You send me your board skills and I'll send you my kite skills ; )

You're doing better than me - I used to always try to carve too hard upwind and forever found myself feeling tons of power in the kite but not moving forward at all. Now I let 'er go downwind and ease back up.

pbc - 8-2-2010 at 07:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by macboy
You're doing better than me - I used to always try to carve too hard upwind and forever found myself feeling tons of power in the kite but not moving forward at all. Now I let 'er go downwind and ease back up.


Unless you have a nimble craft that tacks quickly and loses very little speed you must first bear away from the wind, pick up some speed, and then aim further into the wind. Some sailboats tack this quickly while others do not. It has little to do with the speed of the craft and everything to do with how much speed it maintains during the tack.

Kite buggies definitely cannot go immediately straight upwind. What with our fondness for jibing we are inherently pointing down wind as we turn. When I'm working my way up wind my tracks always start in broad curves that straighten out as I eek ever closer to the soft sand or the water trying to keep my speed, make ground upwind while keeping my wheels on the hard pack.

Philip

flexiblade - 8-2-2010 at 07:50 PM

The terrain your riding on will make a huge difference. Grass with an MBS or buggy can be difficult to get upwind depending on the type of grass and its thickness. For proper up winding a smooth surface and a fully powered kite will do the trick, some kites are better at the upwind than others (high aspect - sits further to the edge of the window so allows further reach toward the direction that the wind is coming from). If your on a snow board - then edging abilities and the consistency of the snow would be the deciding factors.

Kamikuza - 8-2-2010 at 08:31 PM

Yeah surface helps - my packed dirt baseball field thing is no problem going way up wind - I can do big fat lazy carving turns downwind and still get back to my starting location on the other side ...

Bladerunner - 9-2-2010 at 07:38 AM

You go where you look !

Focus on a reasonable spot and allow tour shoulders + waist to go that way.

If you are sining the kite. lean back and move upwind when pumpng the power. Move to your toes and just try to hold speed between power pumps.

Bladerunner - 9-2-2010 at 07:38 AM

shaggs2riches - 9-2-2010 at 08:21 PM

So basically a contributing factor to going upwind is the speed you are traveling at??? I guess that would be why one would want a well powered kite. I can see to how having a higher aspect kite that does well on the edge of the window would help to maintain that speed when trying to go upwind. I guess a lot of what I was trying to do is direct the kite up higher to reduce side pull and that would slow me down and then my hard edging would slow me even more. I guess it would help to understand a little bit of sailing theory. Its great though cuz there always seems to be something to learn about this sport, which really keeps me interested when the wind ain't flying. Thanks Guys!:yes:

Shaggs

pbc - 9-2-2010 at 09:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shaggs2riches
So basically a contributing factor to going upwind is the speed you are traveling at??? I guess that would be why one would want a well powered kite. I can see to how having a higher aspect kite that does well on the edge of the window would help to maintain that speed when trying to go upwind. I guess a lot of what I was trying to do is direct the kite up higher to reduce side pull and that would slow me down and then my hard edging would slow me even more. I guess it would help to understand a little bit of sailing theory. Its great though cuz there always seems to be something to learn about this sport, which really keeps me interested when the wind ain't flying. Thanks Guys!:yes:

Shaggs


Yes, speed is important. With speed comes greater apparent wind. There is an aphorism that applies here: "The faster you go, the faster you go."

As to sailing theory, yes, being a good sailor is a huge advantage. I never raced on the water, but when I did sail I almost always had a destination--an island I wanted to reach. The wind was not necessarily favorable for my choice of destination so I might have to sail to windward on the way there and sail downwind on the way home. Each is more demanding than sailing on a beam wind. This forces you to become a better sailor.

Course racing is the same way. The course is always a closed loop that takes you upwind and downwind. The race organizers don't want to make it easy on you because they want to test your skill.

Apply those skills to a kite buggy and they come in mighty handy. When you find yourself on a skinny beach with a sub-optimal wind direction you can do something rather then just pack it in. Get yourself an efficient kite and you can do even more.

I feel like major differences between the kite boarding/kite surfing communities and the buggy community come from the physical constraints of the field each use and the goal of what you do with your vehicle. Kite buggiers are often hemmed in by water and dunes. When they start to move they go some where. When they compete, they race a closed course like a sailor.

Boarders and surfers seem to be all about the jump. You need not go anywhere in particular, you only need to recover the ground lost on your last jump and get in position for the next one. When boarders and surfers compete it is about style and difficulty. The biggest concern for space seems to be a good safety zone.

Yes, these are generalizations and they certainly wouldn't describe everyone, but they help me make sense of what I read here. I found reading this forum I had to filter comments people made with my knowledge of their kiting style. Of course that was damn near impossible to do when I first started reading. :-)

Philip

sp4cem0nkey - 15-2-2010 at 12:04 AM

Hey Shaggs,

I'm still a relative noob, but I discovered something recently that has greatly improved my upwind ability. The angle of the kite has a lot to do with how well you ride upwind. Too high in the window, and you won't be able to put enough heelside edge pressure to keep from sliding downwind (because the kite is effectively reducing your weight on the edge). Too low in the window, and your muscles will have a lot of lateral force to overcome to keep a proper edge. I found that an angle of around 30 - 40 degrees worked well on my last beach run. Additionally, you will often need to pick up some speed by travelling downwind before the kite can gain the apparent wind to take you upwind. If you're feeling underpowered with a 16m kite in 25km/h winds, I think you must be keeping your kite too far from the power zone. Try diving it a bit closer to the center of your wind window to give you more power. Just be prepared with your body position and board angle for the burst of power that you are about to get.

PHREERIDER - 15-2-2010 at 07:44 AM

sailing knowledge is a fundamental key.

solid understanding and application will make for fun, otherwise haphazard attempts will be frustrating and accidents waiting to happen.

too much resist will choke the system(kite and rider). you have to let the kite flow and you move with it. a favorable line where all is moving and control can be established.

cross wind riding with good sustained passes, use of speed control both with the kite and board are essential. without speed control the transitions are going to be full of surprises.

up wind is all about using the least amount required of the kites power nearing the edge of the wind window. as wind velocity changes this position is different and as apparent wind adds in the kite will continue to fly closer to the absolute edge.

time and practice will improve things , gusty, hollow winds are difficult to ride in so conditions selection is one the first steps to success .