Power Kite Forum

the POWER prefiller project !

herc - 15-2-2010 at 12:36 PM

this baby was ordered today:



specs:
---------------------------------------------
SY1225SL12SH
1,900 rpm
37.00 dBA
[B]110.31CFM[/B]
DC12V
0.53 A

Dimensions:
120 x 120 x 25 mm

Weight:
115g

http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/acc/026/sy1225sl_detail.ht...
---------------------------------------------



110.31CFM = 187,3 m³/h = 3129 liter per minute !!!!

this is [B]5 times[/B] the airflow that my [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG4Hf6WNpTc"]coleman quickpump[/URL] produces !!!

i will combine this with a battery holder:
[URL="http://www.conrad.de/medias/global/ce/6000_6999/6100/6150/6156/615617_LB_00_FB.EPS_400.jpg"]http://www.conrad.de/medias/global/ce/6000_6999/6100 /6150/6156/615617_LB_00_FB.EPS_400.jpg[/URL]

a tube and a switch. i hope my new prefiller will fill my 16 m scorpion and my brand new 13 meter scorp (arrived today!!) in 20 to 60 seconds.
i will make a video as soon as i have to components together.

awindofchange - 15-2-2010 at 12:49 PM

What you may want to do is just go to Home Depot or Lowes, find yourself a battery powered leaf blower. Those can be purchased for about 40-70 bucks depending on sales. It comes with a charger, battery and blower motor. This will fill the kite in about a minute.

Another option for the fan is to go to a marine store and get an engine exhaust fan. Those come in a longer tubed unit and hoses that will fit inside the kite very easily. You can mount your batteries right on the base of the fan-tube.

Just another option.

arkay - 15-2-2010 at 12:54 PM

What about a gas powered leaf blower. that should fill it even faster!

herc - 15-2-2010 at 02:00 PM

all sorts of leaf blowers and also my coleman quickpump are quite heavy. my selfmade blower from a pc chassis fan will weight much less. and it will be much more silent.

i dont know about "engine exhaust fans", will google about that. thanks for the tip!

acampbell - 15-2-2010 at 02:18 PM

You have it right Herc. What you have there will work like a charm. Radio Shack has a rechargeable battery I think 17v meant for RC cars. Comes with a charger for $17. That muffin fan filled my 18m Phantom in 4 min or so; about the time it takes to lay our your lines and bar. And so light you forget you have it.

Ah, just saw you are in Germany, so if no Radio shack you can figure something out.

indigo_wolf - 15-2-2010 at 02:19 PM

Depending on your flying location, I would expect that firing up a gas powered leaf blower would have some folks seriously reconsidering installing that center console mount for their H&K MP5 :o :rolleyes:



ATB,
Sam

pigryder - 15-2-2010 at 04:18 PM

man I've always wanted a MP5 :shocked2:

Kamikuza - 15-2-2010 at 06:11 PM

I've always wanted a P90 :lol:
Been looking for a battery powered leaf blower, hopefully I can just slot my B&D battery pack into but they just don't exist here - guess you have to have a garden to have trees that drop leaves and not have a slave sorry wife who's got nothing better to do than sweep all day and figure out new and creative ways to piss off the neighbors ...!

So in other words, I might have to DIY a blower too ... actually, I think I have that exact fan sitting on top of a heatsink I can't use ...

awindofchange - 15-2-2010 at 06:30 PM

Here's the exhaust vent blower. There are several types and sizes but this one will blow up a PL 19meter in about 30-40 seconds.

Bilge exhaust fan

blower.jpg - 12kB

Kamikuza - 15-2-2010 at 06:33 PM

What to power it with, Kent?

indigo_wolf - 15-2-2010 at 10:29 PM

At a guess, 5.5 amp 12 volt marine battery.... about the size of a motorcycle battery... maybe a tad smaller.

If you make a plywood battery stand (something along the lines of a r/c field box), you could mount the exhaust vent blower on top. Removable side panel to easy removal of battery and charging tasks.

A length of flexible 4" hose to aid in routing air into the kites inflation panel and you're good to go.

Just thinking out loud....

ATB,
Sam

InvertedForce - 15-2-2010 at 10:30 PM

At 220 CFM, that'd sure fill 'er up quick!!

Kamikuza - 16-2-2010 at 12:05 AM

Still too much to cart around :D or leave lying on the beach for nosey children to bugger.
I wonder how many CFM those little <80mm PC fans pump ... could tuck something like that in a backpack ...

50x50x10mm = 9 CFM ... do you get multiples of performance if you stack them? eg. 3 fans inline = 3 x 9 = 27 CFM?

Kamikuza - 16-2-2010 at 05:32 AM

... can't remember if I posted this here or not - I got bored once and had an excess of 80mm fans to hand ...

[img]http://www.post#@%$#!.biz/albums/userpics/11553/Fan%20Array~0.JPG[/img]

herc - 16-2-2010 at 05:39 AM

@kami: coool fan matrix :-) must have been a bit noisy, though..

nonetheless i would buy that slipstream fan with its 110 cfm, instewad of stacking 80 mm fans with low air throughput.
the lighter, the better. and the slipstream only weights 115 gramm..

Kamikuza - 16-2-2010 at 06:50 AM

Actually, very very quiet ... didn't move much air though :lol:

flyjump - 16-2-2010 at 09:13 AM

Do a lot of you guys have trouble prefilling your kites? I guess what i mean is, are you using these fans to pre fill for low winds?

acampbell - 16-2-2010 at 09:18 AM

yeah, low winds (wind gradient leaves little wind on the ground, but enough above) and/ or older ARCs with the single inflate zipper in the middle instead of one at each end.

flyjump - 16-2-2010 at 09:24 AM

I don't usually fly if theres not enough wind on the ground to prefill. I'm really big into jumping with ATB and if there isn't enough to prefill, then there usually isn't enough for big air. Although there are those occasional days when I havn't flown in a few weeks and I simply want to have a kite in the air above me so I can get a quick fix.

PHREERIDER - 16-2-2010 at 09:30 AM

really low wind, i can see inland light air and to save some time. but my experience is fill in 1-2min, set lines for launch, then 15 sec top- off -fill, then GO! scorps need a little extra in most cases, and that seems to be the case for some .

never even considered it. kinda goes against the nature of the no pump mantra, IMHO .

but(just recently) i do love to dry them at the house with the leaf blower, kinda neat.

not until guys on hear where talking about it. helps with repairs, drying and cleaning if the wind is down and my idle hands need help

awindofchange - 16-2-2010 at 11:38 AM

If there isn't enough wind to inflate the kite, then there usually isn't enough wind to board with - but if you can fill the kite then you can usually fly it. We use the fan to blow the kite up at the park in the ultra light wind for lessons and teaching people how to use the depower system and control bars.

For the batteries on the fan, we use two of the RC NiMh batteries on the bottom to provide the juice. It will last about 10 minutes continuous enough for about 5-6 inflates on the arc's.

The whole thing with batteries and 2 ft. of 4" vent fits easily in the backpack with the kite & gear. Weighs appx. 3-4 pounds. You can recharge the RC batteries off your car if needed.

Kamikuza - 16-2-2010 at 06:29 PM

Yeah what Kent said is pops back into my mind everytime I start thinking about building one of these :lol:
... and do I REALLY want to admit that I need a pump for my arc? :evil:

rocfighter - 17-2-2010 at 05:45 AM

Kami there are worse things to need a pump for :no:

stetson05 - 10-3-2010 at 09:52 AM

my kids got me an air hogs switchblade. i think the only thing it might be good for is preinflating kites.:dunno:

air-hogs-switchblade-2.jpg - 21kB

indigo_wolf - 10-3-2010 at 11:45 AM

Pretty funny video review on Woot



ATB,
Sam

rocfighter - 10-3-2010 at 12:08 PM

That was very informative, or at least somewhat. And my three year old grandaughter found it funny when it hit the tree and then each consecutive time it did it.
(Though she has become quite the community laugher. So it might just have been that I was laughing)

Bladerunner - 10-3-2010 at 05:34 PM

I bit the bullet and bought a Coleman battery operated pump for air beds and stuff. It was only $19.99 and looks the job. I'll post up a report on how it works 1st chance I get to use it.

arkay - 10-3-2010 at 05:44 PM

You can also get a cheap cordless / rechargable leaf blower for 30-50$. That would preinflate the kite pretty dang fast. I' have one, haven't used it for pre-inflation, but it pumps out a good bit of air and lasts about 60m on a charge.

Kamikuza - 10-3-2010 at 06:14 PM

No cordless leaf blowers in any store I've been to - and I've been to ALL the DIY/hardware stores in a 50km radius. But then, this is Japan - where are you going to blow the leaves to except some place that'll piss the neighbors off ... better to vacuum your garden :O

wannabekiter - 10-3-2010 at 07:09 PM

so I have a (slightly) off topic question.

Would this:
http://www.cyclaire.co.uk/index.php/vmchk/Cyclaire-Inflator/...

work to pump up an LEI?
I'm sure there's a nozzle that fits

lad - 10-3-2010 at 08:00 PM

I saw a guy use a standard rechargable Coleman inflator on his LEI thru an adapted hose. He said it then took just 6 more strokes from the hand pump to fully inflate it.

zero gee - 10-3-2010 at 08:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wannabekiter
so I have a (slightly) off topic question.

Would this:
http://www.cyclaire.co.uk/index.php/vmchk/Cyclaire-Inflator/...

work to pump up an LEI?
I'm sure there's a nozzle that fits


very interesting. it looks like it should do an LEI nicely!

Kamikuza - 10-3-2010 at 08:38 PM

... what about a bottle of compressed air? I got a compressor at home and could charge it easy ...
Zero - would probably do to get it started, but to get it up to pressure you'd have to finish with the pump again I reckon ...
... inertia reel on a fan ... hmm ...

arkay - 10-3-2010 at 08:39 PM

sweet... as long as it's sand resistant :P

zero gee - 10-3-2010 at 09:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kamikuza
... what about a bottle of compressed air? I got a compressor at home and could charge it easy ...
Zero - would probably do to get it started, but to get it up to pressure you'd have to finish with the pump again I reckon ...
... inertia reel on a fan ... hmm ...


It uses a dual action piston, not a fan...
how it works
You might be right though, you might need to top it up with lower volume higher pressure like the usual LEI dual action pump. Too bad you could not switch it to a high pressure stage at the end of pumping.

They make a cool high pressure pump for bike tires up to 80psi or 120psi. But it has the normal valve end on it.


and the fine powder sand we have at home would likely be an issue.

Kamikuza - 10-3-2010 at 09:48 PM

I was thinking more for the arcs, an inertia reel on a fan would be more effective :)
Nice bit of gear though ... most people here use a manual pump but there's one guy with an electric pump about the size of a car battery plus a bit more.
I'd rather have an arc :D

zero gee - 10-3-2010 at 11:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kamikuza
I was thinking more for the arcs, an inertia reel on a fan would be more effective :)

I'd rather have an arc :D


Hmm... Nice idea. :thumbup:

Kamikuza - 10-3-2010 at 11:48 PM

I've got a spare of my RC car with about a 15cm pull ... on a 120mm fan ... bet I'd look a right tosser :lol:

zero gee - 11-3-2010 at 10:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wannabekiter
so I have a (slightly) off topic question.

Would this:
http://www.cyclaire.co.uk/index.php/vmchk/Cyclaire-Inflator/...

work to pump up an LEI?
I'm sure there's a nozzle that fits


Looks like someone has tried it on a kite and it broke after 2 minutes. It couldn't handle the back pressure when topping off the kite. He was able to fix it and it is usable again but not for a kite. I suppose sand would be an issue too.

herc - 19-3-2010 at 10:10 AM

first test of my prefiller in no wind. you can see that it takes approx. 2 minutes to fill my 10 sqm synergy.

pros of the DIY prefiller compared to the Coleman quickpump:
* cheap
* silent
* lightweight
* high air volume - fills fast

cons:
* filigrane
* not much air pressure
* non water resistant

the biggest drawback of the DIY prefiller is: though it has a high air volume throughput, it does lack air pressure. the kite does NOT fill as TOTALLY as with the coleman quickpump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayhcDKJzqYw

Drewculous - 19-3-2010 at 10:40 AM

Nice!!
:thumbup:
:bigok:

BillyFL - 19-3-2010 at 12:11 PM

Was that a chocolate-hazelnut pudding shroud on that fan? Yummy !

herc - 19-3-2010 at 03:57 PM

exactly hazelnut cream ! tasty ! and just fitted the diameter of the fan.

btw, a german kite friend told me that it is more clever to put the prefiller into the deflate zipper. that way the kite fills more evenly and the tips fill better. also, it might be better to have the fan outside pressing air into the kite, instead of having it inside sucking air in. dont know if it would make a big difference, but could be some percentage faster. needs to be tested.on the other hand, my version is safer for the fan (colliding of the blades with other objects etc)

herc - 19-3-2010 at 04:00 PM

another Idea:

if you are brave enough to cut away the grid before the middle air inlet, you could make a prefiller with a smaller tube, that you stick directly into the vent. now you could just walk to the bar, hook in and wait a minute or so till max prefill and launch. no need to close zippers etc. the prefiller would simply fall off the air inlet during launch (provided it is heavy enough due to the batteries)

question: is the grid important to keep the shape of the leading edge? or does it just keep dirt out ?

acampbell - 19-3-2010 at 04:28 PM

Yeah I use the same muffin fan to fill my Big Phat Phanny 18m which only has a center zip. But when you are forcing air with even that fan, it does not matter where you put it. It reaches max pressure and stops but it is enough to launch fine in the low end of the wind range for land- like around 4-6 mph steady.

Quote:
Originally posted by herc
exactly hazelnut cream ! tasty ! and just fitted the diameter of the fan.

btw, a german kite friend told me that it is more clever to put the prefiller into the deflate zipper. that way the kite fills more evenly and the tips fill better. also, it might be better to have the fan outside pressing air into the kite, instead of having it inside sucking air in. dont know if it would make a big difference, but could be some percentage faster. needs to be tested.on the other hand, my version is safer for the fan (colliding of the blades with other objects etc)

zero gee - 19-3-2010 at 04:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by herc
another Idea:

if you are brave enough to cut away the grid before the middle air inlet, you could make a prefiller with a smaller tube, that you stick directly into the vent. now you could just walk to the bar, hook in and wait a minute or so till max prefill and launch. no need to close zippers etc. the prefiller would simply fall off the air inlet during launch (provided it is heavy enough due to the batteries)

question: is the grid important to keep the shape of the leading edge? or does it just keep dirt out ?


Interesting idea. I think the grid is multi purpose. It keeps debris out. It shapes the LE. It keeps the sock from buldging out or blowing out completely.

How about adding a second container of hazelnut cream to the other side then have the tapered ends against the fan on each side forming a wind tunnel. Then using the deflate zip.

You better get at that second container... ;-)

Bladerunner - 19-3-2010 at 04:34 PM

The Coleman did a POOR job on it's 1st test ! Just doesn't push enough volume to do much to a 19m?

herc - 20-3-2010 at 02:44 AM

blade, sorry to hear that. its true, the coleman has not that much volume throughput compared to a highspeed pc chassis fan. did you try to fill a completely empty kite? normally, you can prefill with the wind at hand and just give the final max fill for a painless launch...
but what is imho the worst thing of the coleman: it is deafening noisy.

a tip to increase air volume for the coleman: shorten / don't use the flexible tube / hosepipe. it has small diameter and drastically reduces airflow.

what about modifying your coleman, so that you have some electrical connectors where you can wire a pc chassis fan on? so you have both: high volume prefilling with pc fan, final max pressurized fill with coleman.

acampbell - 20-3-2010 at 04:28 AM

Relax about the pressure thing. It's a kite not an air mattress :singing:. The muffin fan fills it plenty like a good breeze. What's your sleep number? :spin:

krumly - 20-3-2010 at 04:33 PM

I thought about making a muffin fan unit like Angus' to inflate my Arcs. Then I bought a Coleman for $20 with free shipping at Amazon. Came with the wall wart charger.

Loud as all get out, but it filled a 13m Guerilla 1 in 3-4 minutes (guesstimate) from empty. Done by the time the bar and lineswas set up. Now the fact that wind was so low that I meant I couldn't even keep it flying -that's a different problem.

Angus - I made a couple of 4' long chain weights like you posted long ago. ~7 lbs each with 5/16" chain inside a neoprene wetsuit material sleeve. Work swell when their is no snow or sand to be had. I use one on an Arc tip or LEI and two when I need to hold down the TE of a foil.

krumly

rocfighter - 20-3-2010 at 05:58 PM

Hey Krumly on the same idea I used 1 quart ziplock freezer bags and filled them with whole kernal dried feed corn. Then used ripstop scraps in bright orange and made bags for them. I made 6 in 20 minutes! They work great slide right off the kite as it launches. But 2 will hold down my Panch ace 5M in good wind.

bmor - 23-3-2010 at 04:29 PM

Might as well add this one to the collection. The fan has a voltage range of 12-28V so I power it with with three 9V Ni-Mh rechargables wired in series. The batteries fit into a Mennen speed stick deodorant case nicely. The fan is rated at 40 cfm, it will inflate my 16m in 3-4 minutes and the batteries are good for about 10 fills, maybe more. I usually zip it into the deflate zipper. So far it works pretty good, not to bulky and the battery case is fairly water resistant.

bmor - 23-3-2010 at 04:34 PM

Hmmm....it wouldn't take my photo, maybe this one?

bmor - 23-3-2010 at 04:36 PM

I thought the size limit was 1 mb, my photo is 350 kb, what gives?

bmor - 23-3-2010 at 04:55 PM

I'll try again...

2fan.JPG - 241kB

bmor - 23-3-2010 at 04:56 PM

and another...

3fan.JPG - 222kB

herc - 23-3-2010 at 05:06 PM

bmor: nice one! but 12-24 v rating? i thought those chassis fans are all 12v ?

my fan is this one:



http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/acc/026/sy1225sl_detail.ht...
SY1225SL12SH
1,900 rpm
37.00 dBA
110.31CFM
DC12V
0.53 A

maybe i can "overclock" my fan too ? currently, i am using 10 nimh AA accumulators. tomorrow, i will make a video filling my scorpion 16 and hopefully a first flight of my brand new synergy 10.

bmor - 23-3-2010 at 06:51 PM

This is the spec sheet on the fan I'm using.

http://www.comairrotron.com/cgi-bin/dcfandatasht.pl?Pnum=030...

The chassis fan you are using may be designed to only use the constant 12V available in a pc system. Comairrotron makes fans for various applications. You may not want to subject your fan to overvoltage unless it's built for it. Most electrical equipment won't last long under those conditions.

rocfighter - 24-3-2010 at 07:48 AM

Good reuse of a warn out product. I totaly respect the reuse proccess.

Kamikuza - 24-4-2010 at 04:20 AM

Finally found a cordless leaf blower here in Japan ... 2.2m3 per minute, cheap nasty looking thing. Guess how much ... $85. Oh and the battery and charger are sold separately for $125 a piece so that'd be $335 :ticking:

bassboi - 24-4-2010 at 04:47 AM

seems you guys like using 12v PC fans... have I got a fan for you:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999...

vantec tornado... this thing pushes some serious air, although it sounds like a small vacuum cleaner.

84 CFM :cool2:

bassboi - 28-4-2010 at 09:03 PM

I have one of those tornado fans I can dig out and send to one of you guys... I don't know how quick it'd drain a battery, because it's pretty powerful.

Anyone wanna try it?

Jaymz - 29-6-2010 at 10:09 PM

The wife got me the Ryobi 18v Lithium multi tool package for X-mas. The fan sells for $30. Filled the 15m Charger in 15-20 seconds and can run for hours on one battery.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDi...

Hardrock - 29-6-2010 at 11:40 PM

Looks like it would do the job.

20 seconds is really fast, giving me ideas.

BeamerBob - 2-11-2011 at 11:14 AM

Just acquired my very own arc inflator. I have a small yard now and can't use my gas leaf blower enough to justify mixing up gas for it so it sounded like a great justification to get a battery powered blower for yard cleanup/arc inflation. It is made by Ryobi and uses 18v batteries I already have for my cordless drill and flashlight. Got mine for $50 including shipping. I have been on a mission to get one when I saw Todd's 18m phanny inflate with a similar tool in like 30 seconds. Here is what I got.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RYOBI-ONE-18V-CORDLESS-LEAF-BLOWER-LITHI...

lamrith - 2-11-2011 at 11:59 AM

Bob,
now that I am a member of the D-arc side I have been thinking about a pre0inflator. I have lots of PC fans laying around so I can do that. BUT I also have a full Ryobi +1 set..

How physically large is that leaf blower unit, it looks fairly small, but hate to take up a kite spot in my bag just to fit it! :-p:bouncy:

BeamerBob - 2-11-2011 at 12:10 PM

Well, you won't need the tube at all since the spout can go directly into your fill zipper. It fills so fast, you just hold it for the 20-30 seconds and done. I don't think it's much bigger than a toaster for example. It would fit inside an empty kite bag, even a smaller one for a fixed bridle kite. I watched ebay for awhile to get the $50 one. Combo price is usually $65 or so. You can get one at hodeypo WITH the LIthium battery for $100 but I didn't need a 4th battery so saved the $.

I have the luxury of doing setup only feet from my car now so if I can haul it to Ivanpah in the car, it's right beside me when I need it.

Feyd - 2-11-2011 at 05:42 PM

Black and Deck 14v. Quick, easy, cheap.

One battery will fill 4 19m Arcs quickly then the charge slows down but you can limp a lot of inflation out of a battery.