Power Kite Forum

Question regarding kite power...

Txshooter38 - 22-2-2010 at 05:47 PM

I recently purchased a HQ Beamer 4.0M kite. This is my largest kite to date. I posted a thread regarding my progression and was advised that I may be well served by going the buggy route to start.

My question is this. I see alot of people flying 10+M kites on here for buggy /kiteboarding. I was also told my 4m would be fine for buggying and after flying it I can see how it is PLENTY of kite for me right now!

How the hell do you all fly these huge kites? My 4m @15/20mph I can barely fly in the power zone w/o getting dragged/lifted. When you progress to these big kites do you ever fly at all in the true "power zone"? or do you strictly use it as an engine at the edge of the power window? Obviously it is much more controllably there and still pulls a ton. (or so it seems) I can barely move the thing through the power w/o ending up on my face.

I am truly trying to be careful with the whole lift/jump thing but I can't stay on the ground. I have been lifted more than once already. Am I doing something wrong?

B-Roc - 22-2-2010 at 05:51 PM

The 10m kites you are referring to are likely depowerables that allow for the angle of attack, camber and power of the kite to be altered. A 10m depowerable foil is roughly equivalent to a 4-6m fixed bridle foil. So if you are holding down a 4m beamer you are holding down the rough equivalent of a low A/R 10m depower.

Txshooter38 - 22-2-2010 at 06:20 PM

Ok. That explains alot. I was under the impression that a 10 M kite always pulled more than twice as hard. So most kites that are 10+ M in sixe are de-powerable?

Hardrock - 22-2-2010 at 06:24 PM

Can't say about the depowers, I think B-Roc hit the nail on the head tho.

I have a 5m Beamer and an Ace 5m and Ace 7m. I wouldn't even think about flying in 20mph.

Last few times I flew in 15mph, I went home hurting.:smilegrin:

I have the 3.5m Hydra also and it was powerful little kite in 17mph at the beach. Dives thru the zone while in the water would almost pull you out. It was tons of fun being dragged in the water.

Speaking of smaller kites and bugs check out this 2m Ace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFD1u9XwQJE

B-Roc - 22-2-2010 at 06:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Txshooter38
So most kites that are 10+ M in sixe are de-powerable?


I would say that's a safe assumption. Though they do make fixed bridle kites in the 10+ meter range, those kites have such a small useable range that you won't be hearing much about them. Most of the 10, 15, 19m kites that you hear about here are some form of depowerable.

Txshooter38 - 22-2-2010 at 06:48 PM

Ok cool..that makes alot more sense. So I should not get wrapped up around the whole "size" thing (like us guys do) and really focus on what is going to work given the wind.

I was just really confused given the fact I was having to be SUPER careful with my 4m this weekend. I thought I was being a @#@$.

So to sum up....my 4m beamer will work good for the buggy and a 3.5 M will get me out of the water on a board? Obviously given the right wind (15 +mph). Maybe even my 2.5 Rush to start on the buggy?

flexiblade - 22-2-2010 at 06:50 PM

5m fixed bridle = 7m LEI or 10m Arc. Mind you though the LEI and the Arc have a much larger range.

(Based on solid pull/rideability)
5m fixed bridle - 12 to 19mph
7m LEI 16 to 28mph
10m Arc 12 to 34mph

Throwing around these numbers comes from experience and feel of the different kites and their individual flying characteristics. You'll get the hang of it.

B-Roc - 22-2-2010 at 07:03 PM

Given the right wind you could buggy on a 2.5, 3.5 or 4m no problemo. Bigger is not necessarily better, especially when starting out. You want to be "rightly" powered for the conditions / winds at hand. There have been days when my 2.5 fixed bridle is too big and other days when my (now sold) 8.5m fixed bridle was too small. It all depends upon the wind and surface conditions and how much power you can comfortably hold down.

Don't worry about size until you are comfortable flying what you have or decide you want to always be able to fly no matter the conditions. That's when you need to start expanding your quiver.

a 4m fixed bridle kite is probably one of the best size kites to have for riders of average weight in average winds.

Txshooter38 - 22-2-2010 at 07:11 PM

Ok...so my wife (120lbs) probably should not have been trying to fly the Beamer 4m in 15 s gusting to 24mph wind.

This is good information to know!!!

I guess a 3.5m Hydra would work for training the buggy or board????

Btw....her parents have a 3 acre pond....I was think about trying the board in it.....and the buggy on the flats 10-20 acres around it.....

Hardrock - 22-2-2010 at 08:02 PM

Sorry tex for not being clear. That Hydra is a good training kite to learn to fly but it wouldnt do any good trying to get up on a board in the water.

It would pull a bug or land board in good wind. What I was referring to was body dragging in the water, but thats about the extent of the water fun.

As for body dragging on a pond, you can use any kite. Just can't crash em and get em back up. Put it up, walk into the water, and take off to another bank, then walk out or land it in the dry. I wouldn't buy a hydra for that.

If your getting serious about water, skip the hydra. You'll need more kite.

heliboy50 - 22-2-2010 at 09:03 PM

The larger fixed bridles, while useful, have a very limited range. For example my 11m is supposedly good from 2-8 mph, but at my skill level a steady 6 would be about the most I would try. And if it's gusty, I'll go with something else. I've flown a 5.5 FB in 19 steady gusting to 25+ and it was kinda' dicey. It all really depends on your application and comfort level.

Txshooter38 - 22-2-2010 at 09:04 PM

Clear. I think I am starting with the buggy and the two kites I have. You all definitely answered my questions and I just have to find a buggy to start with. I will remember more kite for the wakeboard....

Suggestions on a good entry level buggy????

flexiblade - 22-2-2010 at 09:39 PM

It really depends on your budget - if no limit there are plenty of vendors on this site that can help you out - if your watching your shekles then keep your eyes open on this forum - they pop up every so often.

- For a used flexifoil (not flexfoil) expect to pay anywhere from $250 to $600 depending on condition of the buggy and the sellers needs. These bugs are good for moderate speeds (under 50mph), freestyling (jumping) and cruising. Lightweight with good frame construction.

- Peter Lynn buggies, about the same as the Flexifoils, minus the lack of any real back support - can have simple mods made to fix this though.

- Rockville buggies I wouldn't pay more than $200 for one new - very lightweight material and have issues with their seats falling apart. Ricketty

- Libre buggies are one of the more expensive brands - very well put together with a geometry for cruising and speed - these will start around $600 and go up to $1500 depending on the type of Libre - many different makes that they sell.

awindofchange - 22-2-2010 at 10:00 PM

I have 14m and 17m Yakuza gt's. Both fixed bridle kites and use them for buggying. These large mammoths only come out on days that the wind is barely blowing though. I can buggy with the 17m in winds starting around 1-2 mph and it max's out around 6-8 mph - maybe 10ish. For days that you just gotta buggy no matter what, those large beasts work great.

My most used kite are from 2m to 5m in size. I would say that the kites larger than 8m in size only come out about 5-7 times a year. The others are out and in use about 3-4 times a month.

Hope that helps.

furbowski - 22-2-2010 at 10:41 PM

fwiw, flying a big fixed bridle near the bottom of its wind range is a very different experience than flying a smallish (3-4m) FB near the top of its wind range.

assuming smooth winds, the big fixed bridle is slow to turn and a little grunty, but you have to think ahead, plan your moves, and use a lot of finesse to get the best power out of the kite. add gusts, will make it unflyable really quick, either due to risk or just too many bowties and luffs.

and flying small FB near the top of the wind range, well, it's great fun, the kite's quick and responsive and rides the edge of your reflexes, as you know... :wee: and you can fly them in messier winds, too, as long as you can handle the max gusts.

also it's hard to knock the stable smaller kites out of the sky by flying them badly, while the big FB's at the bottom of their wind range have to be flown very carefully to keep them in the sky and powered.

awindofchange - 23-2-2010 at 02:57 PM

Common staying....

Strong wind builds muscle, light wind builds skill.

Very well put Furbowski.

flash - 23-2-2010 at 03:47 PM

I have to say kudos guys/gals you did a fabulous job answering this question, I only wish you had been around when I was teaching myself all of these little things. I am pretty sure my learning curve would of been a LOT better !!

And yeah I agree with the last 'motto' from awindofchange

muscle can only go so far, what sets the truly great riders away from the relatively good is skill. (ever been an athlete elsewhere? they all say the same thing)

Have fun riding, the Beamer is a good ole' standby. I have one and love it, one of the most reliable and fantastic kites I have ever flown. :)

Ride hard and ride often!

Txshooter38 - 23-2-2010 at 05:02 PM

So it almost sounds like since I have two fb kites that my next might should be De-power. The winds around here are typically gusty and I think that the learning curve may be steeper on the buggy with a fb. (what it kind of sounds like) Correct me if I am wrong but I have read some conversation on the depower's ability to "absorb" gusts. This would be beneficial to the buggy learning process???....or just try to learn with one of the fb's??

Mind you the learning process is going to be all me. I have done some reading on starting on the buggy really slow(not getting going very fast, lots of practice turning, etc.) I just think starting out flying the beamer 4m in the power is going to be to much to learn with and a depower might help.

Maybe I am just working on my argument for another kite.....she should buy it right????

Maven454 - 23-2-2010 at 05:05 PM

Learning to buggy with a fixed bridle will work just fine. It's generally in the other disciplines that depower really shines as a learning aid. The Europeans generally prefer FB in a buggy.

Txshooter38 - 23-2-2010 at 05:15 PM

But you fly the fb at the edge of the wind window right???? Not directly in the big power right??? What I read was that if you run straight with the wind on the buggy you tend to outrun the kite...so you should run at an angle that has the kite at/towards the edge of the window yes???

Maven454 - 23-2-2010 at 05:24 PM

For both FB and depower, you should be moving perpendicular to the wind direction. That's the same regardless of what type of kite you use. Check out the tutorial that Angus has posted here.

shehatesmyhobbies - 23-2-2010 at 05:42 PM

Good luck on getting the buggy basics down. When you finally hit the sweet spot you will know. More to learn which kite to use for the conditions you have!

If you get a depower, you will see that it will suck up the gust better. Yet another whole learning curve! Again Good luck and good winds!

awindofchange - 23-2-2010 at 06:56 PM

Depowerable kites don't necessarily absorb the gusts any better than a fixed bridle (except the PL twinskins which absorb gusts very well - but they are quite different than the normal depowerable kites). What the depowerable kite allows you to do is to drop the power out of the kite when the gust hits (again, talking about normal bridled open cell depowerable kites). If you are flying the kite in a depowered state and then power up the kite by pulling the bar in, if a gust hits and you get too much power you can slide the bar back out and drop the power down....or if you are flying with very little power and want to get more, just slide the bar in towards you and you can power the kite up. Other than that, there is absolutely no difference between a fixed bridled kite and a depowerable kite (as far as flight and power delivery goes) physical differences are much more obvious.

If you are flying the depowerable kite in a "lit up" setting, then you will have less ability of dumping the power when the gusts hit and it will be more like a FB kite. Most snow/mountain board riders will ride with this type of setting, powered up hard on the kite with the ability to boost or get overpowered when sliding the bar in. With the depowerable kite set up in this way, gusts can be just as dangerous (or even more) as any fixed bridle kite. The reason they can be more dangerous is that most depowerable kites are designed with higher lift to drag ratio's so the rider can boost higher. Gusts will amplify this even more.

As stated, both FB and depower kites will be flown in the same positions relative to the buggy when riding. You will need to fly the kites at a 45 degree or further out in front of you to get going. If you put the kite directly down wind from you, you will just get side dragged regardless of what style of kite you are flying.

For me, I always prefer to ride FB in the buggy. They are smaller in size, perform better, less lifty (depending on conditions and rider) and much quicker in response (mainly because of the smaller mass in the air). That's not to say that a depowerable kite would be a bad choice, I know many who use them and use them well. It is just not the preferred choice for myself and my riding area. If I did choose to ride depowerable in the buggy, my first choice would be the PL twinskins like the Phantom or Scorpion.

Hope that helps.

Txshooter38 - 23-2-2010 at 07:19 PM

Sweet. You guys just have no idea how much I am learning from all of you. I really appreciate all the input. I feel like every time someone responds I just get another nugget of information that really benefits my understanding of this sport. Thanks to all of you for the help!

I think it is time for me to stimulate the economy with a buggy purchase!!!!!

heliboy50 - 23-2-2010 at 08:30 PM

Especially early on in your kiting hobby de-power will add a pretty fair amount of complexity which at this point you really don't need. If the gusts are big enough that you are not comfortable with the size of kite you are flying, go down a step. Grab a 2.5 or 3m rather than the 4.

furbowski - 23-2-2010 at 08:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Txshooter38
I feel like every time someone responds I just get another nugget of information that really benefits my understanding of this sport.


trust me, you're not the only learning from this thread.... :thumbup:

awoc's comments about open-celled depower, esp. their higher l/d over FB, just made a few more bits of the puzzle click together in my head. I haven't flown one yet, just my PL arcs and those only briefly.

kandrey89 - 24-2-2010 at 03:46 AM

Great explanations, I think I'm starting to understand why people were talking me OUT of building a 8 m^2 foild fixed bridle kite, for a 6.5m^2 GUAL fixed bridle.

Currently I'm closing in on finalizing my purchasing orders for the 1.7m^2 version which will serve as proving grounds for the 6.5m^2 version in terms of design feel, handling, power generation, bridle adjustments for the right AoA.

I think I'm finally going to get some air with the 6.5m^2, maybe even with 1.7m^2 on 20+mph days, what do you think?

Buggying sounds awesome and looks too, but the carriage is kind of expensive, I go no place to store it, and it has land limitations in terms of bans on land use, etc... I'll stick to kite jumping for now.

Thanks everyone for comparisons. This is really helping.

Maven454 - 24-2-2010 at 04:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kandrey89
I think I'm finally going to get some air with the 6.5m^2, maybe even with 1.7m^2 on 20+mph days, what do you think?


Getting air with something smaller than around 5m is dangerous at any kind of wind speed. The small kites can lift you. But they'll generally drop you like a rock afterward.

Krohn1999 - 24-2-2010 at 05:06 AM

When first learning how to buggy the largest FB you need is going to be around 6m. As you continue to improve your skills you will want to also start getting used to flying with a harness. Once you have that down, and have a buggy to match (the best choice is Libre because it will grow with your skills) you will see that the bigger kites will come into play.
In the wind that you described above(15/20) I will usually fly something around a 7.5 up to a 9.0 depending on the course and how much upwind ability I need.

It all depends on your skills and what you want to accomplish.
If you are just looking to cruise around a field or a beach you won't need bigger kites. If you get into more techinical riding or racing you will have to have them.

Most Important!! If you are a beginner stay with kites that are built for beginners. Don't go out and buy some racekite and try to learn with it, you will only have problems with it and in the worst case will give up kiting because you are not having fun anymore.

Depower in a buggy? not my thing. I think that kites that can generate huge amounts of lift don't belong in buggys, but that is just my opinion.

As far a buggy goes, like I said before, Libre is the best choice. Buy a V-max and let it grow with you. Libre uses standard parts on most buggys meaning you can later extend your side rails, or add a wider axle, or switch to Bigfoot tires using parts made by Libre. As your skills increase you can modify the buggy to fit your needs. With a Lynn or a Flexi you are pretty much stuck with what you got (or you start building new parts yourself)
Well thats my opinion.

acampbell - 24-2-2010 at 03:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Krohn1999

Depower in a buggy? not my thing. I think that kites that can generate huge amounts of lift don't belong in buggys, but that is just my opinion.


Es ist nicht verboten.

That is just the rather funny European predilection to buggy only with 4-line handles. When the PL folks showed up at NABX, they had never seen such a high concentration of ARC's in one place.

Turn the lift down and improve upwind performance .

And it passes the all important CWS test: "Can you do it with a beer in one hand?"

Quote:

With a Lynn or a Flexi you are pretty much stuck with what you got (or you start building new parts yourself)
Well thats my opinion.


Not so much. A PL XR+ can piece by piece turn into a Bigfoot, and last year at NABX I had my Bigfoot frame there with smaller wheels and small front fork, because I did not need the BF's nor could put them on a plane easily.

And the Flexi and Peter Lynn downtubes are interchangeable with same bolt hole spacing. Two customers have built "Flexifoots"- Flexi wide axle rear and side rails and BigFoot front end with BF's all around. It's a Bigfoot with a wider seat for bigger riders wearing harnesses.

Krohn ,no worries, I always like you posts but I just had to quibble on a couple of things.

EDIT: and I should have said that Libre Buggies are indeed great, and Jon Ellis, the US dealer is a buggy expert and great guy. I just did not want the other brands to get short shrift.

Drewculous - 24-2-2010 at 04:05 PM

lol... everytime someone says you cant fly a depower on a bug... angus has to jump in and set the record straight :lol:

and everytime... its that "silly European prejudice towards kites with 4-line handles for kite buggying"

lol sorry i just gotta laugh a little

BeamerBob - 24-2-2010 at 04:31 PM

With some open running room, I'd rather buggy with my Montana V or my Phantom. I set my current personal best in the buggy with the Montana IV. Close things in where I need to move the kite around quickly and I'll get out a FB. Each has its place.

Here here to the switching parts around on Peter Lynn and Flexi buggies. I like the slightly wider axle (than the PL wide axle) that used to come on the Flexis. I made it mine that way. I just ordered the small forks so I have a narrow footpeg position for some hopefully high speeds on the slick barrows at Nabx.

Txshooter38 - 24-2-2010 at 05:05 PM

So does that mean that most depowerables are geared towards more substantial lift as opposed to pull???

acampbell - 24-2-2010 at 05:48 PM

Fair and good question and I'm sure others will expand more here.

De-powers are intended to be able to produce lift, but because they have a trim strap (gearbox) and bar (throttle) they can be turned down in the lift and focus more on the pull. So arguably they are underutilized in a buggy and I bet that's what Krohn was referring to.

Bobby has it right inasmuch as the FB kites are better when you are on a beach that is a football filed wide and miles long but the wind is cross-shore forcing you to work short tacks. But when I have a beam reach and can cruise with a park-and-ride, I like the stability and gust munching of a de-power. Then I can tune the kite to break the back wheels loose only when the bar pressure mounts, and use the other hand to reach for water, beer, camera, check stocks or maybe take a customer service call from a customer.

I had a nice session last Saturday on Jekyll island with the first on-shore winds in two months (fricking El Nino). Parked the Synergy 15m off my shoulder in 8-10 mph winds. Nice to be able to stretch back with both hands behind my head and then wave at the passers-by. Forgot the beer though, darn.

Txshooter38 - 24-2-2010 at 06:12 PM

so does that mean that depowers as a type are typically geared more towards lift...or is that still tied primarily to aspect ratio??

krumly - 24-2-2010 at 06:38 PM

I gotta quibble with any presumption that depowerable kites are 'built more toward lift' than a fixed bridle kite. Depowerable kites have ways to vary angle of attack, camber, and sometimes even projected area (which changes their aspect ratio) with respect to the apparent wind

Fixed bridles don't allow the user to vary those parameters, other than to pull down the trailing edge. Do that a little and it will increase lift (while increasing drag). Do it a little more and eventually the kite will stall and all you do is add drag.

Either type of kite can be designed as a high aspect ratio, very high lift-to drag machine. Or it can be a low aspect ratio, lower lift-to-drag machine. Lower aspect ratio and thicker foil sections generally mean a wing will fly to higher angle of attack before stalling, if other design parmameters are held constant.

Compare a PKD Brooza to a Combat, an Ozone Flow to a Yakuza, an Ozone Access to a Manta, or an older PL Bomba to a Phanny or F-Arc. Or if you use LEI's, maybe Cabrinha Convert to an XBow. You've got the performance gamut covered, depowerable or fixed bridle.

krumly

Krohn1999 - 25-2-2010 at 04:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Drewculous
lol... everytime someone says you cant fly a depower on a bug... angus has to jump in and set the record straight :lol:

and everytime... its that "silly European prejudice towards kites with 4-line handles for kite buggying"

lol sorry i just gotta laugh a little


First off, The US-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-er use Depower in Buggys alot.
Second, The last time I looked in my passport it said
"Issued in Nebraska" (so much for European prejudice)
but you are correct in "Mainland" Europe it is more popular to use FB in buggys than Depower


I never said you can't use Depowers in a buggy I said it is not my thing. If your a freestyler (which I'm not) they are the best thing to have.

As far as Kites with Lift. I said

"I think that kites that can generate huge amounts of lift don't belong in buggys, but that is just my opinion."

I am talking about any kite with large amounts of lift. Of course you can set up a FB to have lots of lift (see PL twister) but IN MY OPINON these kites are not very usable in Buggys (unless you want to freestyle)

Of course you can buy diffrent parts for PL and Flexi but there are very little options. Axle length is max 120cm (If I remember right) If you want to extend your side rails you have to buy new ones. Big foot light is possible but not Cad Kat

With libre you can buy extensions in diffrent lengths so you can set your buggy up for you. Axle length is possible up to 160cm. Front forks are avialable for all wheel configurations including Spoked wheels (like the ones from Ozzy). Side rail heigth is set up that you have much more hold and can deal with side load much better.

If we start to look at the stablilit of the diffrent buggys you will notice that there is much less flex in a V-max wich in turn give you more stability. A V-Max also has its limit but it takes good skills t bring it to its limit.

If you want to freestyle then you are better off with a Flexi or a PL, but if you are going for speed you will limit out with a PL or Flexi sooner as with a V-max.

So let the discussion begin.:singing: (or should we start a new thread about the buggys?)

Drewculous - 25-2-2010 at 07:07 AM

youre from nebraska? lmao! nice! anyway....

the only reason i left that was because i looked into getting a neo or montana from angus, but noticed on their site they didnt list it as a buggy engine.... anyway, angus and i talked... he used that same phase and it stuck with me and i thought it was kinda funny.... then i see it on his site... then here... i just gotta laugh... sorry kinda off topic here...

as far as lifty kites and buggies/ depowers and buggies... i think the big drawback to depowers on bugs is not the lift factor.... SEE ANY FLEXI VID---LOTS OF BUGGY JUMPIN W/ BLADES--- its the fact you have more "stuff" hangin off of you... in a bug you are sitting in basically an enclosed chair... with a harness, bar, leashes, donkey d****, all this stuff in front of you, then you gotta turn and fly out the side.... i can see it being more cramped then if you are standing on a board... facing your kite... with all the extra gear out in front of you...

all personal preference if you ask me... i was told not to static jump... i do anyway :smilegrin: lol

if a depower feels right to you in a bug... why not? if a FB is easier on a board... which it is sometimes... why not?

its all just grabbing the wind for our enjoyment... whichever method gets ya going go for it, try it out first if you can, if not look at where you want to end up... freestyle/cruise/:puzzled: ... just start slow in managable winds and it should end well

Krohn1999 - 25-2-2010 at 07:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Drewculous
youre from nebraska? lmao! nice! anyway....


No Minnesota, but because I have my Passports renewed though the Consulate in Frankfurt I get the passport from where ever they decide to have it made.

Drewculous - 25-2-2010 at 09:00 AM

and they landed on Nebraska? odd...
lol