Power Kite Forum

ARC or foil?

Jsnowdog - 15-3-2010 at 12:40 PM

Greetings all, I'm new to the forum, not to kiting. I've been flying as long as i can remember, my dad built big box kites when i was a kid and thought it was funny to watch me get draged around by them. I started flying fixed bridles about 3 years ago, (HQ crossfires) and like them for land boarding. Last season I flew a barrowed 10 M Frenzy for snowkiting. Im going to purchase a new kite and have narrowed it down to a 12 or 15M PL Charger or 11M neo 2. I live in New Mexico and average winds are 10 to 20 mph. and im moslty on land or snow but have several good lakes around and want to cross over. Any info would be appreciated.

Drewculous - 15-3-2010 at 12:54 PM

15m charger...

personal bias, and i think PL makes a better kite, and the 15 seems to be the "all wind go to kite"
plus auto zenith :thumbup:

both are good... but if i had the dollar laying around... i'd but the charger... green/yellow/white :smilegrin:

BeamerBob - 15-3-2010 at 12:54 PM

This is like the Ford/Chevy debate. You will find fans of both with equal zeal. Both are great kites. Use the search function here to evaluate strengths and weaknesses to see which way you lean. The Charger will work better with gusty wind but the NEO would probably do better with winds that are going from low to high, like 4-15. Some issues with NEO 1's safety release but users report that is much better with the NEO 2.

Jsnowdog - 15-3-2010 at 12:57 PM

Thanks guys, forgot to add I,m 195 lbs. no gear.

Maven454 - 15-3-2010 at 01:02 PM

If you get an arc, you'll definitely want the 15.

brplatz - 15-3-2010 at 01:11 PM

Hey Jsnowdog, where in NM do you live? I'm in ABQ and there are a couple of guys that enjoy flying on the weekends if you wanna come out?

Brian

PS: I have a 15m Synergy and love it

PHREERIDER - 15-3-2010 at 01:16 PM

i'm 200lbs. and CH15 would be my go to kite, just did the review last weekend for the water for both 12&15. For the bigger guy its gonna be your all terrain kite.

Jsnowdog - 15-3-2010 at 01:17 PM

I'm in Farmington. Next week I'll be in Alb. but I'm taking my wife and three daughters to Explora and Natural History Museum so probably won't be kiting. but you never know, I'll pack a kite.

kiteNH - 15-3-2010 at 01:20 PM

If you are mostly on snow and land you might want to consider an open cell foil. After flying open cell foils and then flying a Synergy a little bit this year I think the open cell foils are a whole lot easier to launch, land, relaunch, etc. I would have had a hard time with the Synergy if I didn't have a friend helping me figure out the set-up, launching, etc. I flew an Ozone Access back to back with my Synergy last time out and just found the Access to be a much friendlier kite. I don't have any experience with the Neo.

Jsnowdog - 15-3-2010 at 01:28 PM

Yeah, I love my open cells too, but Ive watched too many youtube videos of ARCs in flight, I can't stop looking, It's like "kiteporn"

brplatz - 15-3-2010 at 01:58 PM

Alrighty,

We fly mostly at Balloon Fiesta Park, but for the next couple weeks its closed off, so we fly at ADO park.

HERE

That link should work ;)

Brian

Jsnowdog - 15-3-2010 at 02:07 PM

Thanks folks, gotta go. Back tomarrow.

BeamerBob - 15-3-2010 at 03:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by brplatz
Alrighty,

We fly mostly at Balloon Fiesta Park, but for the next couple weeks its closed off, so we fly at ADO park.

HERE

That link should work ;)

Brian


Small world. I made friends with a guy this weekend that is an FAA inspector that is working at the balloon festival there. I told him I had friends that flew kites there. He was intrigued about my Synergy and how it worked. He is a retired commercial pilot, and retired military pilot before that.

power - 15-3-2010 at 03:43 PM

LEIS!

Drewculous - 15-3-2010 at 03:44 PM

*open palm to forehead*

:lol:

Maven454 - 15-3-2010 at 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by power
LEIS!


Doesn't make much sense for a guy in New Mexico.

erratic winds - 15-3-2010 at 04:50 PM

Of course it does, you can get 3 new LEI's of different sizes(plenty of cheap brands) for the cost of that charger 15.....(but I'd choose the CHARGER!...no pump for this chump)

power - 15-3-2010 at 04:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Maven454
Quote:
Originally posted by power
LEIS!


Doesn't make much sense for a guy in New Mexico.

You'll understand why I prefer them over foils if you ever get a chance to fly an LEI someday, I'm not suggesting them for ease of use, I just think LEIs feel much better when you're flying them because of their rigidity.

Bladerunner - 15-3-2010 at 05:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Maven454
Quote:
Originally posted by power
LEIS!


Doesn't make much sense for a guy in New Mexico.


Dude has already got a F.B. + a Frenzy and wants a crossover kite. Why on earth does being in New Mexico rule out an LEI ?

highazakite - 15-3-2010 at 05:04 PM

I would say it has more to do with budget. I was going to get a 15m charger this season and after doing the same debate you are going through i went with the neo2 11m. The reason boiled down to the charger cost about 500 more. While i truly do believe is a notch above the neo but is that notch worth 500 more? The answer is all up to you. It boils down the the 80% rule- a ten dollar burrito taste about 80% as good as a 45 dollar steak on fine china , both get you feed. If ya have the extra to waste sure go for it but id rather invest in more later. Besides when the charger 2 comes out next year there will be used chargers.

My 2 pennies

Kamikuza - 15-3-2010 at 06:32 PM

Pah, it's only money - made round to go round ... made of paper to burn :yes: buy the best one and enjoy!
And welcome J!

shaggs2riches - 15-3-2010 at 07:23 PM

This question always seems to come with a double edge sword for answer. My advice is if you have the time and a little patience then go out and test out as many choices you can get your hands on. Closed cell foils are great for all conditions plus they come with the no pumping feature, and no worries of blown bladders. LEI definitely have their place in the world. I have very little experience as I've really only flown one inflatable that was in the middle of winter in sub -30c conditions, so it wasn't very fun for me. Up till now I've been keen on the foils and love them, Arcs are amazing kites, Autozenith never ceases to amaze me. A buddy of mine loves his inflatables and just purchased a Naish Cult, and claims it to be the cats meow, from what he has told me I am interested in giving it a try.

Basically what I'm trying to say is explore all options before buying and always be open minded when speaking of something you haven't tried, who knows one day you might like it. Either way get what ever works for you. You can have the best reviewed gear in the world but if you aren't happy with it then you ain't having fun!!

Good Luck
Shaggs

power - 15-3-2010 at 07:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
Quote:
Originally posted by Maven454
Quote:
Originally posted by power
LEIS!


Doesn't make much sense for a guy in New Mexico.


Dude has already got a F.B. + a Frenzy and wants a crossover kite. Why on earth does being in New Mexico rule out an LEI ?

I agree.
@Jsnowdog- Because you already have a couple of kites for land, you might want to just think about what kind of kite would be best for the water and not worry about how it will do on all three mediums, but that's just one approach you might want to consider. The best advice I can give you is to TRY BEFORE YOU BUY!! There are so many good kites out there; deciding which kite is best for you is mostly a matter of personal preference, and you won't know what you like the most until you get out there and fly everything.

csa_deadon - 16-3-2010 at 01:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BeamerBob
This is like the Ford/Chevy debate. You will find fans of both with equal zeal. Both are great kites.


I prefer the AMC Gremlin. Easy to find in any parking lot. Cheap to insure, and nobody ever steals them! :wee:

Maven454 - 16-3-2010 at 03:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
Quote:
Originally posted by Maven454
Quote:
Originally posted by power
LEIS!


Doesn't make much sense for a guy in New Mexico.


Dude has already got a F.B. + a Frenzy and wants a crossover kite. Why on earth does being in New Mexico rule out an LEI ?


He doesn't have a Frenzy. He borrowed a Frenzy.

And I somehow missed his comment about having several lakes around and wanting to cross over :dunno:. Ignore my anti LEI comment.

Bladerunner - 16-3-2010 at 06:42 AM

OOPS ! I missed the borrowed bit !

Doesn't matter , I would get the Charger but I am biased in my purchsaes !

Power said it best. Be patient and try to fly / feel what is best for YOU ! Arcs, foils and LEI all react to your inputs different. Try before you buy!

BeamerBob - 16-3-2010 at 07:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Drewculous
*open palm to forehead*

:lol:


Drew, I laughed out loud for a minute or more with that one! Awesome! :lol:

Jsnowdog - 16-3-2010 at 08:13 AM

Everyone, Thanks for all the good input. I think I can speak for many of us when I say I truly love kites, from a dowel and paper diamond to the new tech, something about them is good for my soul. If I was wealthy I'd get some arcs, a flysurfer or two, some more little trainers for my girls, some LEIs for every possible wind range. Reality is I have THREE daughters and my purchases not only have to be justifiable, they come after soccer, orchestra, horses, etc. I used to find pennies on the floor when I was cleaning house and suck em up with the vacum, now I save them. As you all know this wont be the last kite I buy, but which one I buy this time. Again, thanks for the support.
Jason.

Maven454 - 16-3-2010 at 08:27 AM

What kind of trainers are you after for the girls? I've got a pair of Prism Stylus I could let go for a good cause... They're on two lines by default, but they can be used on four. I even have a set of HQ lines and handles that I could throw in, you'd need your own kite killers though.

[EDIT] I should clarify, a good cause and a little bit of cash. [/EDIT]

Jsnowdog - 16-3-2010 at 08:33 AM

3m or smaller. I've got killers.

Maven454 - 16-3-2010 at 08:34 AM

Both of them are P.3s, which are listed as 2.5m and aren't particularly powerful for their size either. U2U me if you're interested.

Jsnowdog - 16-3-2010 at 08:43 AM

Thanks, I,ll sure think about it.

Bladerunner - 16-3-2010 at 04:39 PM

Sounds like you want to buy USED gear.

It is shocking how much the value of kites with almost no hours on them drops. Foil, arc or LEI if you buy something a few years old you can own 2 or 3 kites for the cost of a single Neo or Charger. Some of the best deals are on LEI. If you buy one kite with a long throw bar the others can be kite only and cheaper.

WELDNGOD - 16-3-2010 at 05:05 PM

foil.(nuff said)

AD72 - 16-3-2010 at 08:55 PM

Arc. I just had my first solid flight of the Phantom in gusty winds last weekend with some pro guidance from Flexiblade. The arc is a gust muncher. My foil was misbehaving in the gusts. Depowered no worries at all with the arc. Auozenith in full effect as well.

macboy - 16-3-2010 at 09:29 PM

AND you'll get said Arcs for about the cost (maybe marginally more) than an LEI. Self launch is something that'd need to be learned but I think it'd be way easier to learn an Arc self launch than an LEI self launch (given the vintage you'd be buying). That, and the autozenith can almost be like flying a single line kite......just let her fly and admire ; )

But as others have said - try before you buy in any way possible.

Jsnowdog - 17-3-2010 at 06:39 AM

Used kites, that is the subject of my next question. The way things work out for me is I can afford about one a year, I've always got new ones, but since finding this forum a few weeks ago I've found alot of good deals on the kites I'm interested in. Here's my concern, as a gear junkie I'm no stranger to good used stuff, but have a rule passed on to me by my father (Ice climber) don't buy anything used that can save your live or kill you, climbing ropes, fall protection, helmets, and for me kites. Am I wrong? Enlighten me.

Bladerunner - 17-3-2010 at 06:46 AM

That rule applies here too.

That is what the good seller list is all about. Folks who can be trusted to sell you quality gear or at least clearly describe the issues on that list . + people you can be sure will work to make a smooth transaction.

My Mom taught me to by top quality used gear for sports. My sports stuff was always good just rarely new .

Jsnowdog - 17-3-2010 at 06:51 AM

Thanks,I'll check it out.

acampbell - 17-3-2010 at 07:12 AM

Yeah I think this forum is pretty well vetted. In the rare case some joker shows up operating in a less than respectful manner, they get smoked out pretty much right away.

-mj- - 18-3-2010 at 03:37 PM

Yup, try before you buy.
make sure you get a kite you're comfortable on, not one that fashion favours.
If you're going for used gear get as much info on what you're buying before spending a penny, if you're unsure ask for pictures of bridle-lines, depower rope, the sail itself, basically everything that wears out, just to be sure.
There are a lot of bargains to be found, especially LEI's but the thing to remember is that single skins wear out quicker (one or two seasons tops) then double skins (8 yr old Arc's still flying without troubles), so if you find something for a real good price be sure to know how many hours it has been flown, and more important how many hrs it has been laying down flapping in the wind (this wears out coating real fast and thus decreases performance)
also known as the "crispy" factor, crispy is good, means coating is still in top shape.

obviously my vote is for a 15m twinskin :yes:

power - 18-3-2010 at 03:45 PM

Page view bump

power - 18-3-2010 at 04:03 PM

I really don't know much about single skin vs. twinskin kites lifespans, but my first LEI was an 05 best nemesis that has certainly had a lot of hours put into it and the fabric is showing no signs of wearing out. If you're only concerned about flying on land, I would probably suggest an open cell foil if you don't want to "deal" with LEIs. If you plan on flying on water, I would suggest either a quiver of crossovers or a quiver of LEIs -- I find that you feel more at one with a kite if you are consistently flying that type (eg. a full quiver of neos), instead of having one type (open-cell) for land and other kinds (LEI, Arc, Neo...) for water. Relaunch and bladder complaints are really the only problems I've heard of people having with LEIs on land -- with the newer bow kites (>07), relaunch is practically just as easy as with a FB, just pull on a back line and it rocks onto an edge ready for launch. Despite the fact that I've never flown my LEIs anywhere but land so far, I have never had a bladder issue. Not to say that it can't happen, but even if it does, you can just replace them. I'm not trying to start a foil v LEI debate in any way, I'm just stating a different perspective. Shortly after I started kiting, I was very frustrated with LEIs and thought arcs would be the solution -- I thought this until I flew both types of kites in clean winds, and that is when I realized that arcs just aren't the kite for me and that I like LEIs more. See if you can hook up with some locals, that is what sped up my learning curve.

BeamerBob - 18-3-2010 at 04:17 PM

Power, this is so refreshing for someone to state that LEI's are for them because that's what they like. You didn't say anything inflammatory at all. I wish it could've been this way all along. Many more people might've learned alot without all the historical flaming when it has become an us vs. them flame war. :bigok:

Jsnowdog - 19-3-2010 at 01:12 PM

Got a super deal on a twice flown 12M Syn from Mike at Big Mikes Kites and went with it, should be here Tues. Winds have been 45 mph plus today, hopefully things calm down a bit by then. Also, to POWER I'm the only one in my city flying right now (65,000 pop.). Had one other friend with a huge quiver of Best and Naish LEIs but he died suddenly a couple months ago (cancer at 40, Lame!) It's hard to believe because we have huge open areas for landboarding that are just fantastic and a huge resivior that functions as a cooling supply for a coal fired power plant (one of the biggest in the US) and the water is 65-70 degrees year round and attracts lots of windsurfers but we were the only two kiters. By the way, what's max wind speed on 12m Syn?

indigo_wolf - 19-3-2010 at 02:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jsnowdog
By the way, what's max wind speed on 12m Syn?

From an earlier posting by Kamikuza

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/wind_range.htm

ATB,
Sam

stetson05 - 29-5-2010 at 09:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jsnowdog
I'm in Farmington. Next week I'll be in Alb. but I'm taking my wife and three daughters to Explora and Natural History Museum so probably won't be kiting. but you never know, I'll pack a kite.


:thumbup: my brother lives in farmington. He likes kites but doesn't have any of his own.

stetson05 - 29-5-2010 at 09:21 AM

doh, I should always look at the date before I post