Power Kite Forum - Water Ski and Kiting

Water Ski and Kiting

herc - 14-4-2010 at 09:40 AM

Any veteran here ever tried kiting with water ski instead of a board ? i am asking, because i feel so much more comfortable with ski than an ATB - on land. i am wondering, if the same holds on water. i think a board is simply a step backward in freedom. your feets are chained together...
of course, a board can provide more surface area m but broad water ski could have quite some surface, too.. also, with ski you have two edges instead of a single edge for going upwind.
i already asked in the kiteforum, but no useful replies., just some youngster using inapropriate words for classifying kite skiing regarding coolness factor ;-) -- but honestly - i left the early twenties some years ago and simply dont care about coolness and "balls to the walls" anymore.

by the way, jaros digged out a pretty cool idea from good old peter lynn: waterfoils for each feet -- called "jesus feet" :

look here:
http://www.peterlynnkites.com/images/sailing/PLboats/
(last picture page) quite interesting i would say.

another idea: what about "knee ski" instead of a knee-board ?

BeamerBob - 14-4-2010 at 09:49 AM

I actually borrowed a set of jump skis from a friend to try out. I would need a helper since the skis have high wrap bindings. Also, I maybe couldn't get them back on if I wiped out bad enough to lose a ski in the water. Fundamentally though, it should work. I'm a 35 year waterski veteran that also wakeboards and barefoots. I have always felt more vulnerable with my feet in individual skis than locked together on one ski or board. I can take some nasty falls on my slalom ski and both feet stay in their binding which isn't going to hurt knees or ankles in most cases. The worst is a pinwheel crash where you have something on only one foot. I'm old enough to not care much about "coolness" either. Whatever lets ME have fun is good enough.

herc - 14-4-2010 at 10:17 AM

nice to hear that. hope you get it to try out soon! maybe make videos...
of course i also have worries about more danger to the feets. but i am thinking about skis as short as possible, but much wider. the trend in kiteboards goes in the same direction. nowadays, kiteboards are up to 48 cm wide, whereas some years ago they had around 35cm and were very long (some 170cm)

why not a "snowblade" kind of waterski, that is wide (20 - 25 cm?) and relatively short (100-130cm) ? the shorter the ski, the less the torques ... also, safety releases as with snow ski would be great.

also, i remeber i saw a video of some prototype water ski . must digg and will post it here if i find it again.

and - what about monoski ?

BeamerBob - 14-4-2010 at 10:27 AM

A monoski or slalom as it's called in the waterski industry would require quite a bit of torque and speed to plane you off maybe even with one of the "widebody" skis. 2 probably is mandatory for it to work.

manitoulinkiter1 - 14-4-2010 at 12:16 PM

Hey

I've thought about trying it but never have.
If you were powered up enough you definitely could do it.
You would miss a lot of days when you could be riding a board though.
Give a board a try, I won't say it's easy to start if you've never used one, but once your on to it it's a piece of cake.
If you find having your feet strapped together restricting go strapless on a surfboard. Start that in low wind though.

John

canuck - 14-4-2010 at 09:35 PM

I bought some wakeskis to try out with my Venom II but we still have good ice on some of the lakes up here so it will be July before I can try them out. Still snowkiting until May

I figure I should be able to launch the kite and let it ride at the zenith while I get the skis on.

wake skis.jpg - 6kB

Kamikuza - 14-4-2010 at 09:45 PM

First pictures of kite-powered sports on the water I saw was the "Jacob's Ladder" of Flexifoil Super 10's or whatever they called - and the dude was on waterskis! Another with a double stack of delta kites too.

... I seem to remember a vid recently with guys on skis, maybe even snow skis in the water ...

Kamikuza - 14-4-2010 at 09:54 PM

My mind is a steel trap - nothing escapes! :lol:

Here is the thread I was thinking of ...

Got no sound but around 3:15 they start kiting on skis ...

thanson2001ok - 14-4-2010 at 10:32 PM

So the logical question is why isn't anyone developing skis to do this? There must be a market.

zero gee - 14-4-2010 at 10:48 PM

Lets face it... Skis on water are "GHAY!" "Look at that KOOK!" That would be the impression you would have from others at just about every beach on the planet.

thanson2001ok - 14-4-2010 at 10:57 PM

So are Alpine snow skis GHAY and KOOKY in Winnepeg?

Kamikuza - 15-4-2010 at 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thanson2001ok
So are Alpine snow skis GHAY and KOOKY in Winnepeg?

No just zero gee :lol:

herc - 15-4-2010 at 01:02 AM

its so strange, that everyone in kiting is so fixated to the board.
reminds me a little about that currently almost no one is "agressive skating" but just skateboarding. while you can do almost all the tricks with agressive skates (maybe even more), somehow skating got uncool. maybe because fitness skates got a mass-trend some years ago. the same with ski: ski are a mass trend, while snowboarding or other boarding is more complicated and so is more suited as a "cool" thing because not much people do it. the same with those "c-tube-kites" riders and kiteloopers. instead of simply taking a bigger kite with better depower, suddenly it is sooo coool to loop the kite to get higher and longer.
but thats it - one cannot forget that kiting is also an ego-boosting sports, and only a few of the kiters kite for relaxation, the feeling of an open, wide free space and stuff. most want to put their "balls against the wall". thats totally ok, but its not so ok to get bashed just because you want to have a relaxing ride with whatever "ghai" device you use...

@kami: thanks for digging that salomon ski stuff out - that was what i had also back in my mind.
@canuc: those wakeski look very interesting! looking forward hearing about a review!

-- edit
just thought about what a good friend of mine said, as i wanted to bring him to kiting and watersports:

"i am not really interested in, because - honestly - i am just interested in doing stuff, where i can get the feeling to be better than most others"

so i think thats the psychological reason some of those c-kite-loopers-with-soo-big-balls hate (and i mean hate! got my first hate pm in a german forum...) everything they classify as "ghai" .. its their way to feel good. "humiliate others, to feel better yourself". some of those - maybe mostly younger kiters - hopefully will rise up mentally a bit...

herc - 15-4-2010 at 01:22 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcKXasO55p8

Kamikuza - 15-4-2010 at 02:23 AM

That's actually the stunt kite guy I was thinking of! Well done :lol:

I must have seen that picture around 1993 or 4 ...

In one of the videos, Cory says something about "... one long edge" being more efficient - than 2 short ones I guess.

Still ... skis look like fun :D

herc - 15-4-2010 at 02:43 AM

http://www.stereoskis.com/skis/standard/

though those stereo ski are idiotically expensive.

@canuck: your wakeski look much shorter! can you give me a link to a website where to buy / infos?

Kamikuza - 15-4-2010 at 06:20 AM

About US$700 ... not too bad but no doubt too small for my lardy arse

herc - 15-4-2010 at 06:23 AM

well - not really small..
think of it:
length = 145 cm -- a bit longer than your regular twintip
width= 20 cm in the middle -- multiply by two --> 40 cm -- about the same width than normal twintip.

so: simply looking at surface its more or less identical !!!!

my idea is: buying the boots, making the wake ski myself from simply plywood. (or asking someone to make me wakeski with a little rocker - might still be cheaper than those stereoski)

maybe even normal wakeboard boots will work ? who knows how stiff they are? stiff enough for edging the ski lateraly ?

Kamikuza - 15-4-2010 at 06:49 AM

Dunno ... I don't seem to remember water ski boots being very rigid at all ...

BeamerBob - 15-4-2010 at 07:20 AM

I've ridden skis with no bindings at all and its the pressure from the inside or outside of your foot that turns, not the lateral pressure on the bindings. The stereo skis are not that out of line on price for what it is. 1 high end slalom ski can go for $1500+.

thanson2001ok - 15-4-2010 at 08:24 AM

I don't board at all. (@zero gee - Yes, I know that's GHAY but I'm OK with that.) I think there may be a nice natural progression for those like me from wake board kind of skis to a board. (Then I wouldn't be KOOK but KEWL. :smilegrin:

) And having fun every step of the way!

zero gee - 15-4-2010 at 08:42 AM

Sorry, that was not my opinion. I was just going by they way things seem to go in kiting when you are different. Hell, I fly ARC's which are GHAY and KOOKy for most out there. Also, I have been riding directionals since 2000. I knew they would be KEWL again.

But now I'm not KEWL because I ride strapped. :rolleyes:

I also ride a groundboard that is likely not used by any other kiter out there (it's a directional too).

and Alpine skis are gaining in popularity for winter here as many are seeing the benefits of skis in our snow conditions.

I could care less what guys fly or ride. It all works (some better than others). :kiss:

herc - 15-4-2010 at 10:18 AM

zero: yeah textual messages not always deliver ;-) i was already wondering and thought that it could only be ment ironically.

@thanson2001ok: did you already tried kiting with some kind of water-ski ? or do you kite on snow only ?
btw, my full-metal snowblades arrived, will test them soon on sand

thanson2001ok - 15-4-2010 at 10:31 AM

@herc I picked up kite skiing this winter. Used Apline skis and Telemark skis. Got blades late in the season but the dang snow melted before I got to try them.

Now I am blading. Never tried a board, land or water. I'm just not sure I am up for eating that much grass or water quite yet. So, water skis completely intrigue me. I have not done it yet but am certainly ready to give it a shot. Any recommendations?

So, what are full-metal snowblades?

herc - 15-4-2010 at 11:17 AM

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150420...

the whole ski is made out of steel. they are heavy (4 kg per ski (!!!!) ) but they are practically indestructible!
you can maybe have 1000 sessions on sand and stuff and maybe loosing just 1 mm of the 5mm thick steel ...
i really hope that i will be able to glide through the sand of my beach. will try this very soon. maybe with wax on the bottom. who knows. if it does not work, well, then i have burned not too much money. at least they will work on snow. or on meadows with some snow. best thing is , i wont have to repair any ski bottom anymore.

herc - 15-4-2010 at 11:18 AM

@thanson2001ok: sorry, no recommendations, as i am searching for good waterski by myself.
but thos stereoski.com look good. but way too expensive for buying before trying..

canuck - 15-4-2010 at 09:23 PM

Quote:

@canuck: your wakeski look much shorter! can you give me a link to a website where to buy / infos?

They are 40.5 inches. Just search Body Glove wakeski. Here are a couple of links
http://www.bodyglove.com/store/products_category.php?categor...

http://www.blackbearsportinggoods.com/ProductDetails.asp?Pro...

thanson2001ok - 16-4-2010 at 05:57 AM

I think I am going to try the wakeskis. I am a little curious how they will edge without stabilizers/fins.

Anyone want to prognisticate success or failure?

BeamerBob - 16-4-2010 at 07:15 AM

those were called "trick skis" back in the day. It's still an event but these skis are cross marketing. No fin means they can slide sideways. You can edge with them but its not as straightforward as on skis with fins. Not the best choice iMHO.

thanson2001ok - 16-4-2010 at 07:20 AM

So, wondering if similar size and shape skis are made with fins.

BeamerBob - 16-4-2010 at 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thanson2001ok
So, wondering if similar size and shape skis are made with fins.

Not to my knowledge. There are "wide body" pairs of skis that would plane easily and still have fins. These are available at big box stores for $200 or a little under that. They would be great all around for kiting for the same reasons they were designed to be easy to ski behind a boat on.

canuck - 17-4-2010 at 09:42 AM

Quote:

BeamerBob posted on 4-16-2010 at 07:15 AM
those were called "trick skis" back in the day. It's still an event but these skis are cross marketing. No fin means they can slide sideways. You can edge with them but its not as straightforward as on skis with fins. Not the best choice iMHO.

They have 4 small fins about 1 inch high. I used them behind a ski boat and was able to cut turns easily. I tried going as slow as possible to see how they handled but only got down to about 15 mph. Only slide sideways at the crest of the wake.

Body Glove bottom 3.JPG - 21kB

canuck - 17-4-2010 at 09:45 AM

The fins are bolted on so you might be able to change them for deeper fins

Body Glove bottom 2.JPG - 18kB

BeamerBob - 17-4-2010 at 11:28 PM

OH. That changes everything then. They fixed a big setback that most got on trick skis. And those fins make them more feasible with a kite.

thanson2001ok - 18-4-2010 at 06:05 AM

@canuck what make and model are those wakeskis? The fins would seem to make all the diff.

bobalooie57 - 18-4-2010 at 06:42 AM

Follow either link that canuck provided, though the blackbear sports is cheaper! They also make an XL model, quite wide.

herc - 1-5-2010 at 03:26 AM

the more i see videos about hydrofoils, carafinos etc, the more i wish there would be another attempt at developing "jesus feets" that work. is someone here into developing new stuff?

it must work! if they can ride a carafino:
http://carafinohydrofoilboard.com/
it should also be possible to have boots with one smaller hydrofoil per boot, and ride like on ski!

Woodland - 12-5-2010 at 06:45 PM

I have to preface this post with the disclaimer that I haven't tried to kiteboard with a ski, but that statement won't be valid for long. Come friday or saturday if the wind is good, I'll have some reporting to do. I do however have a long history with waterskiing, mostly slalom skiing. I just wanted to comment on a couple things that have been posted so far. As far as the wakeskis go, both HO and Stereo make Quality versions of them. The price doesn't seem to off compared to what they're asking for new kiteboards these days. Their websites are as follows:

http://www.hosports.com/products/306581

http://www.stereoskis.com/skis/standard/

The bindings they use are not the straight up rubber like the ones from back in the day. They are definitely stiff enough to dig in an edge for cutting upwind.

As far as trick skis go, they have no fins. They are able to do some incredible stuff on those puppies all with edging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIKWWg3GKKc&feature=relat...

They wakeskis both have fins that are removable, but just like on a kiteboard, they are shaped on the bottom and have a rail. As far as edging is concerned the only time it seems that having fins is essential is when they are used on something like a raceboard or surfboard where they are ridden more or less flat compared to something like a twintip. This youtube video I saw on kiteforum seems to demonstrate better than I can describe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpTV4vBMn8k

The bindings they use are not the straight up rubber like the ones from back in the day. They are definitely stiff enough to dig in an edge for cutting upwind.

I can relate to BeamerBob as far as having feet on separate boards. That leads me to what I'm actually going to try out this weekend. A number of years ago I bought my dad a ski called the Wide Ride. HO made it. It's a slalom ski, so the length is there. I couldn't find any information online on it, but the things got to have the surface area of a kiteboard and a half. It has a high wrap binding up front and the toe loop in back. I'm hoping this makes things easier as far as body dragging and the like.

Hopefully this doesn't seem like too much of a rant. I've water skied for a lot longer than kiting, and spent a lot of time researching and talking with locals about different techniques so I've become somewhat attached to the sport. It ends up making me a little sensitive to some of the misinformation that gets posted.

Kamikuza - 12-5-2010 at 08:40 PM

I seem to remember years back when I was waterskiing, a guy had trick skis ... like large elongated plates and I don't remember any fins either.

Be good to see how it all goes :thumbup:

herc - 13-5-2010 at 01:01 AM

@Woodland: i cant see any rant in your post ? i hope you have success with kiting with your ski! please pleas make pictures or better a video. and we are waiting for your review how it worked!

IMHO, skiing results in a much more healthy position relative to the direction of travel. with a board, i always have to twist my upper body and my neck to look into the direction of travel. i got neckpain once on a wakeboard... but with ski, i always look forward. much better imho.

kiting with those stereoski is definitely possible, but i was told from some stereoski representative that you nedd quite more power in the kite -- so no low-wind choice.

this is one naish kite developer, using stereoski:

http://www.coreloop.com/dump/stereo_ski_kiting.jpg

doggy - 13-5-2010 at 03:07 AM

I was jsut about to post about the salomon skiing vid, saw it recently and it looks wicked!

Although skiing with kites just looks strange, think its because you have to be side on to the kite

herc - 13-5-2010 at 05:50 AM

with those modern kites with very little side-pull, i propose that it is actually a much more healty riding position on ski than on a board. but not sure about in general. at least for me its better, because i think i would get neck pain over the long run if standing on a board and looking with a 90° twisted head in the direction of travel.

Woodland - 31-5-2010 at 09:47 AM

So, I haven't had any wind in the right places to give it a go on the slalom ski, but I had some time and finally took some pictures of it and took some measurements.

Here's one picture first and I'll throw the dimensions with the next ones.

When I review the post it doesn't show up, so I'll see what happens when I just post it.

Hmmm, it said the picture was too big. In the FAQ it says it only needs to be smaller than 1 Megabyte. My camera doesn't go any lower resolution and besides that, it's only around 360 Kb.

Hmmm I'll figure something out.

Just for reference sake though, the ski is 65" long. At the widest part it is 10" and at the tail it's 5 1/2" wide. It says on the ski it has an effective surface area of 3600 square centimeters.

herc - 31-5-2010 at 10:55 AM

please try to upload your pictures for example to picasa, flickr or something similiar, and then add a link to the picture inside the img tags.. i always use picasa, it works so smooth and hassle free.
i hope to get my bodyglove XL wakeski tested this weekend! if the wind does not totally die out.

WIllardTheGrey - 31-5-2010 at 02:30 PM

Or if you want, you can email the pic to me and I'll be happy to resize it and post it for you.

WIllardTheGrey - 31-5-2010 at 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woodland
So, I haven't had any wind in the right places to give it a go on the slalom ski, but I had some time and finally took some pictures of it and took some measurements.

Here's one picture first and I'll throw the dimensions with the next ones.

When I review the post it doesn't show up, so I'll see what happens when I just post it.

Hmmm, it said the picture was too big. In the FAQ it says it only needs to be smaller than 1 Megabyte. My camera doesn't go any lower resolution and besides that, it's only around 360 Kb.

Hmmm I'll figure something out.

Just for reference sake though, the ski is 65" long. At the widest part it is 10" and at the tail it's 5 1/2" wide. It says on the ski it has an effective surface area of 3600 square centimeters.

Here ya go.:eureka:

Kamikuza - 31-5-2010 at 11:42 PM

Phew, been a while since I seen something like those!

Is that 3,600cm2? so two skis would be 0.72m2 or about the size of a big board ... hmm ...

herc - 1-6-2010 at 01:16 AM

in those lay all my hopes for kite-skiing:

http://picasaweb.google.de/FrankFuldner/BodygloveWakeSki?fea...

will test them hopefully this weekend. hope that there will be wind, hope that they will work.
though i will have to add shoelaces to the bindings, because this elastic bands suck big times - nearly impossible to get into the bindings. just bought myself eyelet pliers.

Kamikuza - 1-6-2010 at 04:46 AM

You have to pump them up :O
Get movies and brang them!

Woodland - 1-6-2010 at 09:51 PM

So, I suppose I should put up the descriptions on the pics Willard posted for me. (Thanks again for doing that.)

The first one is just to show how much surface area the ski has.

The second one is a full view of the ski I'm planning on using.

The last two are to compare the size of a slightly shaped competition ski to the Wide ride. It's a Connelly F1X. The rear binding is off because part of it tore apart when I broke my ankle last year.

If you'd like to read all about that, watch the video of the wreck and see some of the kiting my brother and I did this winter you can check out my blog. It's at http://www.joeynmichelle.blogspot.com/
The video is on the second page.

Once the wind cooperates with the right location at a time I can go, I'll get some pics or vids. Gotta love inland kiting.

Kamikuza - 30-8-2010 at 03:59 PM

http://www.extremekites.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=69&...

Seems like it's all on!

http://www.starrsurfskis.com/