Power Kite Forum - FS Sp2 15m tuning tips needed!

FS Sp2 15m tuning tips needed!

Flying G Zeus - 12-5-2010 at 06:26 PM

Recently I changed all the pulleys and yellow pulley lines on the Speed 2 15m. Since then the kite has become very unstable. If the least bit of tension is taken off the lines (as in a hard landing, or even pushing the bar away too much) the wing tips fold in dramatically (taco shaped), the kite drifts downwind into the middle of the power zone then snap- it opens up. Prior to this it flew perfectly.

I've performed the mixer test sereval times- lined up the knots, moved the c main in 1cm increments, etc. All the obvious stuff has been done. The kite canopy is in good shape- never had any of the little connector lines break. Looks fine.

Today I measured the tip sparepart lines and found they are 10/ 11cm shorter (thru wear) than they should be. Could this be it?! Running out of options and patience. Help please.

tridude - 12-5-2010 at 07:10 PM

you need to go back to default on your sparepart lines.....................they should be 200 cm if I remember correctly..............set mixer to your personal preference.....................default or b minus 1.5 cm....c minus 3cm......check your depower line to default at 40cm or 15 inches and lastly all lines should be the same length...................basically the big tuneup that should last 50 plus flying hours.......................or if all else fails contact Powerzone.....................

Flying G Zeus - 13-5-2010 at 04:00 AM

I've already performed all of your suggestions. Thanks anyway. Question still remains, will replacing the tip sparepart lines (ring lines) solve the problem?

tridude - 13-5-2010 at 05:50 AM

you said you moved c main in 1cm increments........did you adjust b main as well.......... example if your c main is 3cm your b main should be half that or 1.5cm..............if so contact powerzone at powerzonekitesports (his website)...................Im familiar with the line youre speaking of..........sounds like it could be the culprit.............slave in a new line (default length) on one side and see what happens.....................

tridude - 13-5-2010 at 05:54 AM

if thats Z 19 youre speaking of the line length is 74.4 cm at default

http://www.flysurfer.com/Lineservice/

Flying G Zeus - 13-5-2010 at 07:56 AM

In the manual, the line I'm refering to is A:18 (running thru a steel ring at wing tips)and it should be 143.1cm in length- got this info. off the line plan on FS website. Mine are 132cm- left side, and 133.25cm right side.

Out of curiosity, you mention moving the C main 3cm and adjusting the B main as well (to 1.5cm) I thought moving the C main automatically moved the B main half the distance.
Am I wrong about this? Trying to learn the ropes ain't easy!

It's worth it though, out yesterday on the 19M in 13- 15kts. rockin the hell out of it! Huge floaty jumps off the waves, landed a few board offs with flipping the board, landed a few ass crackers too.

tridude - 13-5-2010 at 08:18 AM

Z,

this is a 2 to 1 mixer..........to maintain the airfoils shape any distance you move C you should move B half that or any distance you move B main C should be double that..............I attached a vid by Armin on how and why to keep you mixer tuned...............

http://www.vimeo.com/9488886

clintopher - 13-5-2010 at 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tridude
Z,

this is a 2 to 1 mixer..........to maintain the airfoils shape any distance you move C you should move B half that or any distance you move B main C should be double that..............I attached a vid by Armin on how and why to keep you mixer tuned...............

http://www.vimeo.com/9488886

You sure about that? I'm not good with the mixer, but I've heard from several sources that moving C affects B automatically. I may have read it in the manual...can't remember for sure though. And I'm almost positive Ted B. told me that. My memory sucks though so I'm not certain of where I heard or read it but I know I have heard that somewhere else a time or two.

tridude - 13-5-2010 at 09:52 AM

the manual suggest you trim all the mixer knots to default (even) however minus 1.5 and 3 cm works best on my Speeds and 1 and 2cm on my Pulse.........adjustments are manual...........................I cant remember the last time my Pulse tucked a tip................bottom line these adjustments are not difficult or time consuming...................with my aeronautics background I like tweeking, trimmimg, inspecting etc....................basically its just like a pre or post flight inspection on a airplane................ :thumbup:

tridude - 13-5-2010 at 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clintopher

Quote:

watch the vid..................right at or about 6:45 Armin mentions adjusting b and c

Flying G Zeus - 13-5-2010 at 02:09 PM

Tridude, I've seen the video before, but watched it again. At the end, in about one sentence, Armin suggests moving the C main and then the B main half that distance. I've been lining up the the knots to even levels, then moving only the C main toward the kite incrementally. I thought the B main also moves as it is linked to the C main thru the pulley system.

I think Flysurfer could spend a bit more time covering the mixer in the manual. It's pretty important.

I'm going to replace the tip sparepart lines anyway. Fly it. Then have another go at the mixer. Thanks for the help and I'll let you guys know how I make out.

Cheers

DenisLaMenace - 13-5-2010 at 04:02 PM

GZeus

before playing with the mixer, fix the length of your A18 lines.

This winter I was flying my SA2 19m and had a knot with 2 bridles around there (prob A18+A17) making these 2 bridles shorter by few cm. It was causing similar issues to what you have.

I had the problem on just one side though

Once home, I discovered the knots, undid it, and next time the kite was flying fine.

powerzone - 13-5-2010 at 04:04 PM

if the kite flew "fine" before the SPL replacement then the risers and bridles can most likely be ignored, focus on the Ringlines and mixer , as you have properly suspected.

the Ringlines affect the AOA of the wingtip... if they are too short then the tips will tuck in because they are being pulled in by the shortened line. order new ones from PZ or FS if they are ragged and frayed... otherwise you can re-stretch them and the re-wax the wear point.

you need to re-stretch the Ringlines on the wingtips back to the proper length.... undo the loops on the ends, anchor one end and tug on the other end with roughly 1/2 the breaking force of the line, this will re tension the line and remove the shrinkage.

next, the mixer: start with Cmain and adjust the ball till its -3cm shorter than A . this means the distance between the ELC and the end of the Cmain is decreased relative to Amain. once Cmain is adjusted, then do Bmain at 1/2 the distance.

regardless of what automatically line moves or adjusts by affecting the other..... start with C and then adjust B accordingly. both lines stretch and shrink at different rates, so don't depend on the movement of one mixer ball alone, you have to do both. and again start with C then do B

Flying G Zeus - 13-5-2010 at 05:07 PM

Powerzone (and everyone) thanks soo much! I've been tempted to just send the kite out to be tuned by a professional, but I will not learn anything that way. In this case, I discovered the problem with the Sp2 15m while on vacation in the Dominican Republic and the only other kite I brought was the P3 10m. We had mostly light wind :no:

There's a lot to be said for fixing your own problems- nobody in the DR could help me. I hope you do not feel like you're giving away your service for free. If anything, you're give people one more reason to buy Flysurfers.

Now, if you could tell me what glue to use (and what material the standard P3 and Sp2 are made from) I can get to fixing a rip in my 19m. Ha, it never ends.

tridude - 13-5-2010 at 06:02 PM

aqua seal................................:bigok:

powerzone - 14-5-2010 at 09:43 AM

i've got a bunch of FS kite material... let me know what color and how much you need....

Flying G Zeus - 14-5-2010 at 03:06 PM

The material is black and the rip runs the length of a bottom panel- about 18" (24" to be safe). So 2 pieces 3" x 24". Can you also supply the 'secret' glue? FS refuses to tell me what material, or lines, they use in making the P3 or Sp2. This makes it impossible to select the right glue! Not very helpful.

I had the Sp2 19m layed out drying, so decided to measure the tip spare part lines- it turns out they are also shorter than they should be by @ 10cm! The same amount as on the Sp2 15m. The 19m flies fine, so now I doubt the TSL(A:18) is the problem with the Sp2 15M. Damn!

The spare part lines (yellow pulley lines) all measured about 194/ 195cm- so they're 5cm shorter than should be. I decided to perform the mixer test. I was surprised to find that on both the left and right side the the C main was the tightest line (by several cm) when holding a scewdriver thru the ends of A,B,C,Z mains. So, I adjusted the C, then B, so all 4 knots lined up evenly. I took it to the beach for a test flight in 6-7knots and it was noticably less stable with wingtips folding in dramatically. WTF!!Should have left well enough alone! Fortunately, I marked the original position of the C and B main and reset the original positions. The wind died, so I'll find out if things are back to normal next session.

So, what gives? What am I missing here?

powerzone - 14-5-2010 at 09:27 PM

restretch all the ringlines, or buy new ones....do not avoid this step. the smaller the canopy the more vulnerable to variances in ringlines causing tiptucking.... for severe tip folding the ringlines are to blame. dont forget about restretching the p3 10m since it has more ringlines than the s2.

you mentioned that "C main was the tightest".... and something about a screwdriver.....that makes me think you're not quite doing the mixertest right...

when doing the mixertest, secure the ELCs to something very rigid. tug really hard on each line (Amain, Bmain, Cmain) so that everything is set. then adjust the mixerballs, then tug hard on the end of Bmain or Cmain so the adjustment loop is tight.... then hold it firmly along side Amain..... now you can measure the Main/Riser junction knot differential.

the 19m S2 work best at C-4, B-2. regardless of the length of the SPL just adjust the mixer . length of the SPL is not important

the 15m S2 work best at C-3, B-1.5

FS uses only super high quality materials, i agree with them for not giving out the manufacturers.... and besides you would probably have to buy several yards for a minimum order, so why bother sourcing the fabric when i offered to hook you up with what you need?

dont rely on any glue alone for a rip that big, if you have sewing skills do it right or have it fixed. good kite glue is Kitefix or Aquaseal.... Flexible Urethane ....lots of places to buy it.

email me your address for the fabric.

Flying G Zeus - 16-5-2010 at 04:05 AM

While we're on the subject, what are the best settings for C and B mains on the P3 10m?

I'll contact you @ the fabric Monday.

Cheers

powerzone - 16-5-2010 at 03:23 PM

nearly every FS kite flys really well with B-1 C-2...

Flying G Zeus - 14-6-2010 at 07:17 PM

BTW, I spent some time re- tuning the Sp2 15m and it flies perfectly now. I actually built a table top 'set up' for measuring lines under tension, and a 'set up' for doing the mixer test. It worked well. Amazing how much difference a few cm. in the wrong direction can make! Very happy to have my favorite kite back in action.

Thanks for all the help.

tridude - 15-6-2010 at 07:16 AM

nice......................... :thumbup:

clintopher - 15-6-2010 at 07:27 PM

So where'd you end up on your mixer settings?

Flying G Zeus - 16-6-2010 at 03:24 PM

I set the mixer the way powerzone said to: C -3cm and B -1.5cm ( and by first adjusting the C main then the B main- the wording in the manual is misleading).

I also found that doing the mixer test on a table top vs. a windy beach was helpful in keeping the process simple and clear.

Again, thanks for all the help.