macboy - 26-5-2010 at 12:24 PM
The obvious answer is to try it but the moment's passed and I've been kicking myself since. We went out to the water on the weekend and I found myself
spending more time scared of the fully depowered V16 that was tugging me straight up off the lake bottom than I did working on my waterstarts. Can I
expect similar power from a fully powered V13 that I was getting from the fully depowered V16? (Meaning - would that be the go-to kite if I ever found
myself in that situation again with the V16? Or is the V13 maybe a better place to start until I have the waterstarts dialled in?)
ripsessionkites - 26-5-2010 at 12:31 PM
when your arc is fully de-powered, i think you're fighting the kite more because you cant feel out the tension / bar pressure.
i like a lot of bar pressure and when im fully de-powered i cant feel the kite as much and feel out of place.
awindofchange - 26-5-2010 at 12:54 PM
It is kind of hard to say which would be more, the fully depowered 16 or the fully powered up 13 - I would think that the depowerd 16 would still
produce more power than the fully powered up 13, especially if you are in a gusty wind condition, the 13 may be a little more manageable in those
types of conditions - either way it is not the optimum setup.
The 13 would have probably been the better choice for you as you are first learning your water starts because if it is fully powered, you could always
depower it to make it more manageable. Once you started working on your water starts, you would know if you need more power in the kite or not.
General rule I always use is that it is better to go out and be a little disappointed that you were underpowered than to go out and immediately find
out you are overpowered.
Once your skills get better and you are more familiar with the wind conditions and how each kite handles in the different wind conditions and the
power that each kite will produce, you may find that being slightly overpowered is ok for you and your skills. Until you get that familiar with your
gear and skills, it may be best to go out on the safe side and use the smaller kite.
Just my opinion anyways. Hope it helps.
PHREERIDER - 26-5-2010 at 06:36 PM
the turn rate of the 16 is going to be slower and very confidence power for trans, stops, and starts. plenty of bar for balancing against and get you
going in a little less air. depowered, its still slow and just as powerful.., any trim passed unhooked setting, things just get really vague and
kite feedback is poor( alot of pilot errors can arise with this) . it will make starts effortless and very confident. this kite is about controlling
power. you really learn the system "Brakes" , edge and kite position.
13 is quicker, so different timing. everything will need to be quick , board control and kite. with good balance this kite can generate
incredible power and speed at the edge of the window. this kite is about speed control . you gain better use of the "accelerator"
once riding is more relaxed and balanced the 13 will be all the kite you'll ever need. this lesser kite will allow you much better up wind.
trim is more bar position and response feeling.
as wind speed gets higher 20 -25 the trim will have more effect to actually reduce some power by back line pressure relief.
under powered makes learning challenging.
10-20 HOURS ON THE 16, THEN MOVE ON TO THE 13 SOON
arkay - 26-5-2010 at 06:41 PM
I don't know what a fully powered 13 is yet, also I haven't flown my 16 yet, but as compared to my 19 I imagine that a well powered 13 can generate
more _usable_ pull then a fully depowered 16. I imagine the 16 will certialy keep a stronger base ammount of pull on you while you're stopped, like
you experienced. I was on my 19 the other day in 25 and I could almost lift my legs and sit in the air 
But, again i _imagine_, if I was flying the 16 and working the kite even a little I could get more power usable with
it trimmed all the way in.
IMHO, moving from land to water is funkey. You need way more power to get moving on water AND you need to maintain the power or you'll slow down and
sink. On land the mantra is use the smallest kite you can, and that's similar on water, expect it's use the smallest kite possible to get and keep
you moving. Subtle difference because you need more power on water. I've actually found that I'm much better off flying what I think is slightly
overpowered. In the end it's not because my water technique sucks and I'm just a big boat anchor with lots of drag. As I start to not suck, I
imagine I can drop down in kite size..:wee: And most of all flying underpowered or in light wind on water is a special technique, and infuriating
for beginners and intermediates :ticking:
arkay - 26-5-2010 at 06:47 PM
So I just read Phree's post after having mine on screen for 10m while making dinner. I think we are saying the same thing. Which is cool, cause I
guess that means I'm not talking complete crap 
Unless the 16 was just uncontrolable, I'd stay on it that you know you have the power to start then move to the 13 once you've got starts down. But
if the 16 is in your way, try the 13! There's only one way to really ever tell and you'll know pretty quickly 
As a reference, I wouldn't think of using the 13 on water til way into the 20s. On land over 15...
PHREERIDER - 27-5-2010 at 05:05 AM
same same ARKAY,
the threshold speed for water will have you wanting more! you want the kite to respond. trim the kite so it flies well and bar is reachable to give
a good range of input.
no trim will undo that fact that its a 16.
shaggs2riches - 27-5-2010 at 06:11 PM
This really has me thinking too! Maybe its just that I don't get a ton of windy days that I haven't warmed up to my 16m scorps power yet, or I don't
know. This winter with the scorpion I felt right at home with it at 18mph, but the last few times in our shifty gusty winds I was really nervous to
pull the kite out when the meter said 14mph with peak gusts at 19mph. And then on the water I tried a water starts for the first time I was really
antzy when in 18mph the kite pulled me over face first into the water and almost drug me onto the beach. Seems like on the water the extra pull would
be comforting to stay a bit more relaxed when up and riding. I felt more at ease with the 10m synergy like it wasn't gonna throw me around when I
bailed from lack of riding experience. Maybe I just need to get more airtime to get confidence built up.
macboy - 27-5-2010 at 11:19 PM
I'm torn. In all my kiting attempts on the water I've often felt I've been underpowered and that this had been preventing me from progressing as I
otherwise might. In this case I think I was overpowered and because I had the kite fully sheeted out, when the gusts hit, it surged with power but
when the wind dropped I was scrambling to get enough on the rear lines to prevent an invert. No balance in the kite's tune at all. I think the 13,
trimmed right would have given me what I needed.
Next time....next time.......maybe the 16 will be the right kite then. If not I'll pull out the 13.
(Funny, given the weather report wind ranges that day I had taken the 19 out of the car and hauled it to the beach......I quickly took it BACK to the
car and grabbed the 16.....)
arkay - 28-5-2010 at 12:11 AM
Tomorrow calls for 18-23, I was thinking of hitting the water on the 19... it's either the v19 or atom12 but I'm feeling arcish.
PHREERIDER - 28-5-2010 at 05:53 AM
i don't remember your weight MB. log some time on the 13 it will come together.
if you are all over the place with kite selection the learning will be frustrating.
CHOOSE a rig that fits your size and the trim thing will be forgotten.
stay with it!
macboy - 28-5-2010 at 08:18 AM
180# or so. I checked the Wind Range Calculator and according to that I was at the top end of the wind range for the 16 that day. Of course that thing
(the calculator) most likely assumes all skills are polished.
Of course I overanalyze things too........this could just be that.
arkay - 28-5-2010 at 11:11 AM
between our two weights 81 - 95kg the tiscali arch calculator only moves about +3 mph for me... I tend to over analyze as well, but at the end I've
found what deels better at the time is better than what the paper says. there's too many factors to pencil in: lull, ave, gust, air temperature, wind
direction, swell, ... all seem to impact kite choice. I think after experience of just choosing right or wrong a bunch of times we eventually figure
out what works by feel. Although starting out by feel can sometimes be a chore, as I've found out!
I was on my v19 the oter day in 23mph and it was doing the same thing to me (on land!), but while flying I found the kite really calms down. Felt
safe the entire time. But in water spending 1/2 of my time on my back waiting to water start (yay, thanks waves) isnt' much fun. I hear ya.