Power Kite Forum

HELP!! NooB deciding on second kite (or third?) Apex or Frenzy or FB?

chudalicious - 29-7-2010 at 07:04 AM

Hi there!
New to the forum and new to kiting and have only been out about 10 times with my Scout II 3m - my first kite. LOVE it and very addicting indeed. I have had no lessons, which I would love to do, but no one around the RI area really offers them so I have just read and read and asked the many online retailers to offer their advise in choosing the kites and offer any tid-bits of knowledge as I go along.

Living in RI we do have the beaches but as it is prime beach season, there is no way to get any space out there so I just go to the local HS football field and wait for some wind to come through. Usually its crappy and turbulent as I can only get so far away from the trees upwind. I have flown in 0-5mph (no fun and a lot of work), 5-10mph (more fun but not enough pull to really move too much), and 15mph with gusts in the 20s?? (good times but a tad scary and got off the ground a bit - maybe 2ft?).

I just picked up a few waist harnesses too (dont like a diaper feeling so no seat harness here) - LF Aura and the Mystic Warrior II for women. I figure because it is so hard to fit, get both and whatever fits keep and send the other back. I am waiting for them to ship anyday now.

I am a decent snowboarder and just picked up a MBS mountainboard that I hope to integrate into the whole kite thing. Got all the protective gear and pads and even a full-face helmet and now I would like to look at getting a larger kite for those days where the wind is around 5-12mph that could not only pull me on a snow/mountain board but would also be some fun and let me get just a little air (3-4ft?) but only if I WANT AIR :). Again, would LOVE a lesson as I only have some over-the-phone advise, these forums and YouTube to guide me and these kites SCARE THE CRAP OUT OF ME as I have seen the many videos of those who are ill prepared or just plain stupid. So in short, yes - I respect the sport and the kites and their power very much.

On to the kites...
So I had also picked up a Flow 2M as well, which was nice, but I hardly could use it as the wind is so varied that it was just easier to put up the 3M Scout to ensure the kite would not just fall out of the sky. I had hoped that on the higher wind days (18-25mph), I could really use this kite if I NEEDED to go out and play. However, because I never use it, I have sold it (with some regret). However, we are going to the OuterBanks in a few weeks and wanted to make sure I had a small kite just in case the winds picked up and were too much for the 3M SCOUT - not sure if I should rebuy one or get a RUSH 200 or forget the whole thing?!!?

So now, I was thinking about getting a 4M or 5M flow for those very light wind days that the Scout just really can't get it done. However, I was told that I would be better off with a 6M Access XT as the depowering offers more of a range and would replace both the 4 & 5M FB Flow kites. Then when they found out I want to try landboarding and snowkiting, they told me maybe the Frenzy 7M would be good too. Only thing? The fact that I have no formal instruction combined with that I only weigh 135lbs combined with all the other stuff I have already mentioned really makes my head spin. Then there is the APEX II as well... so yes, I am quite the confused NooB.

SO I wonder - do I get the Access XT and just have at it and forget the FB Flow? Do I get the 5M Apex and then look at the 7M Frenzy once I can control the Apex? Again, want to be able to cover wind ranges from about 5mph - 22mph (too scared to ever go out in anything more) and only have the 3M Scout to work with now.

HELP!! I can't spend millions here to get another 2M, the 5M Apex, the 6M Access AND the 7M Frenzy - what makes sense to get into next that won't kill me?

All comments and feedback are VERY MUCH appreciated. ALso, if anyone knows where to go for some good space and clean wind OR LESSONS in the RI/MA area, please let me know!

Maven454 - 29-7-2010 at 07:19 AM

To start things off (since you'll get lots of feedback) The only depower kites that are likely to provide any real power in the 5-8 mph range are the really big Flysurfer Speeds. But I wouldn't recommend those for someone at your level of experience. I think someone on here is still selling a 7m Flexifoil Bullet, that would be good for you in the lower wind range or you could go for this Peter Lynn Reactor. The 3m Scout should be usable up to around maybe 25mph at your weight. For winds in the 8mph to maybe 20mph I'd be more likely to go with an 8m Access or 9m Frenzy both of which are good kites. The Access are lower lift, so if you want to jump I'd go for the Frenzy. There shouldn't be any need at all (other than kiter greed :D) to get both the 5m Apex and the 6m Access.

acampbell - 29-7-2010 at 07:51 AM

Good advice from Maven.
Given the complexity and weight of the bridle of a de-power, it will take more wind to fly than the same size FB. 6-8 is the low end for most de-power foils and that is like with an ll m Neo or a 9.5 Montana or similar size Frenzy, most likely. I can go in the buggy in about 5 mph with the Phantom 18 but that is a whole other kettle of fish for you right now.

If you can get yourself to the point that you can fly a 6-8 m FB in a variety of winds and feel comfortable, then you can get yourself going with de-power alone. It's the approach that I took.

Being scared is good- it helps keep you safe.

chudalicious - 29-7-2010 at 09:35 AM

So what I think I am hearing is get a larger fixed bridle kite until I can master that (how do you know when that is?) and then move on to depowerables in the 8-9m range?

The thing that scares me about a larger FB kite is that I can't control how much power is being generated. WIth my Scout 3M in my crappy conditions, I can go from a leisurely figure 8 to it just dropping out of the sky to it pulling me in the air a few feet - all in a matter of seconds. With a larger fixed bridle, I think I would be finished.

So the plan so far is to use the 3m Scout for days where the winds are anywhere from 10-22mph. For anything over, maybe reattain a 2M (but I would not really want to go out in anything more than that anyway). But for those days where its generally 8-15mph, you all are saying I am better off with a larger FB in place of a depowerable, correct?

So it brings me back to the FLOW 5M, which I can get complete with the turbo bar for $499. Is this worth it? Anything larger in a FB just makes me nervous with all the gusts... I JUST NEED A LESSON OR TWO DANGIT! :) When I go to the outer banks, I may go for a kiteboard lesson - only the dry land portion - so I can at least get the low down on what and what not to do.

OR should I look at the Frenzy again - really only because I now realize I probably won't go out in anthing less than 8mph or more than 15mph (just not worth it, I realize now it was a pipe dream at my level of skill and need for a "giant" kite ?:) and the fact that I can get the 7m for $750ish (or the 9m for $820, yikes). An maybe round it out with a 5m Apex for those windy days where I still want smoth pulling power with a landboard.

Want to be able to have some fun while staying safe. And, also want to be able to use for static flying as well as snowkiting and landboarding. For really windy days, I still have a trusty lift ticket or grassy hill and good ole gravity to have some fun with!

Sorry for all the questions and for going back and forth. Just hard to pass up a deal I may not see again.

Maven454 - 29-7-2010 at 09:43 AM

Fixed bridle kites are generally more fun to fly static than depower kites. As for what kite to get, my sig would appear to show a bit of Ozone bias :embarrased:, I'd say go for a 5m Flow and a Turbo Bar. The 5m Flow is a beautiful blue and the Turbo Bar is a truly fantastic piece of work. Note though that the 5m Flow is still a bit small to be useful below about 7 or 8 mph. You could static fly it, but are unlikely to be able to landboard with it in that low of winds, although you are lighter than me...

Maven454 - 29-7-2010 at 09:46 AM

Any chance you'd be able to join us at Wildwood, NJ in October? See also here

acampbell - 29-7-2010 at 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chudalicious
So what I think I am hearing is get a larger fixed bridle kite until I can master that (how do you know when that is?) and then move on to depowerables in the 8-9m range?


Yup. You will be ready for de-power when you can fly your FB's in all of their wind ranges confidently. Like a 5m up to 18 mph or so - but that's clean wind.

Quote:

The thing that scares me about a larger FB kite is that I can't control how much power is being generated. WIth my Scout 3M in my crappy conditions, I can go from a leisurely figure 8 to it just dropping out of the sky to it pulling me in the air a few feet - all in a matter of seconds. With a larger fixed bridle, I think I would be finished.


size your kite for the gusts, not the lulls or average. for you it may mean traveling to a spot with cleaner wind. Use Google Earth or find other local kiters who know.

Quote:

So the plan so far is to use the 3m Scout for days where the winds are anywhere from 10-22mph. For anything over, maybe reattain a 2M (but I would not really want to go out in anything more than that anyway). But for those days where its generally 8-15mph, you all are saying I am better off with a larger FB in place of a depowerable, correct?


If you are going to be in motion than de-power is preferred if you are ready for it. For static flying, FB can be better. De-powers don't like static as much because they don't show their benefit until put into motion

Quote:

So it brings me back to the FLOW 5M, which I can get complete with the turbo bar for $499. Is this worth it? Anything larger in a FB just makes me nervous with all the gusts... I JUST NEED A LESSON OR TWO DANGIT! :) When I go to the outer banks, I may go for a kiteboard lesson - only the dry land portion - so I can at least get the low down on what and what not to do.


Flow 5m with a Turbo bar will be a sweet rig and it will hold some resale value, like maybe 65% if in good shape

Quote:

OR should I look at the Frenzy again - really only because I now realize I probably won't go out in anthing less than 8mph or more than 15mph (just not worth it, I realize now it was a pipe dream at my level of skill and need for a "giant" kite ?:) and the fact that I can get the 7m for $750ish (or the 9m for $820, yikes). An maybe round it out with a 5m Apex for those windy days where I still want smoth pulling power with a landboard.

Want to be able to have some fun while staying safe. And, also want to be able to use for static flying as well as snowkiting and landboarding. For really windy days, I still have a trusty lift ticket or grassy hill and good ole gravity to have some fun with!

Sorry for all the questions and for going back and forth. Just hard to pass up a deal I may not see again.


Good deals come by often enough if patient and you can learn more while you wait. but if you can afford to buy now and sit on them for a while...

When you get to OBX you will appreciate smooth wind and it will all make more sense.

chudalicious - 29-7-2010 at 10:25 AM

Wow this is GREAT guys.

OK, so plan is:
- use 3m scout for screwing around and windy days from 12 to about 22 mph
- get 5m flow with turbo bar and get really comfy in winds from about 7-15 mph
- MMAAAYYYBEE get a depowerable for a good price now that i can try on the landboard and use for snow kiting in winter once i am better skilled?

Only question? What depowerable? Apex 7.5? Frenzy 7? Neither? And will it render the flow 5m useless?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying not to spend just for the sake of spending.

As for the NJ Buggy gathering, I'll see if I can convince the finance we need a roadtrip :)

any DVDs you can recommend in the meantime so I know what "drills" to do to ensure my skills are progressing?

tridude - 29-7-2010 at 11:02 AM

if youre flying on a bar (if its a Scout then you are) theres half your problem.....................learning to fly on a bar is like taking your sister to prom.......................handles give ultimate control and are best to learn on.............once youve mastered your foil on handles, youll be ready for a bigger depower......................

indigo_wolf - 29-7-2010 at 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chudalicious
ALso, if anyone knows where to go for some good space and clean wind OR LESSONS in the RI/MA area, please let me know!


Cleaner wind is at the shoreline in MA/RI..... inland stuff can be bumpy/lumpy, but some days you still luck out.

MA:
Nahant (off-peak)
Pope John Paul II Park
Millenium Park
Fort Tabor, New Bedford (dgkid78's stomping grounds)
Abigal Adams State Park
Gloucester Soccer Complex

RI:
Breton Point State Park
Colt State Park

Quote:
Originally posted by chudalicious
any DVDs you can recommend in the meantime so I know what "drills" to do to ensure my skills are progressing?


Better if you can fly with others.... If you are stuck doing goat imitations by yourself....

DVDs:
Progression Beginner Landboarding ($30-$35)


Probably the best of the breed. Clear instructions, multiple views, points out bad habits, and mistakes you might pick up.

MBS Drill 1 (~$15)

Not bad... but a lot of time is spent going over the basics (important, but...) gear, wind, etc. and it chews into the meat of the runtime. There was supposed to be a followup called (surprise!) Drill 2, but gear and footage (a lot) was stolen during filming.

PowerKite How To DVD ($30-$40, 2 discs)

Kind of a Whitman Sampler of everything from Static 2 line flying to Landboards, Dirt Surfers, Kite Bikes, and Buggies. A bit of a pain to get in the US. Best source is Grant Fitz at Canadian Wind Rider.

How To Snowkite (~$35)

No direct experience with this one, but have not heard a single bad review and quite a few thumbs up.

Hope that helps.

ATB,
Sam

ripsessionkites - 29-7-2010 at 11:21 AM

maybe look at the Flysurfer Pulse 2 if you need a cross-over kite or the Flysurfer Outlaw for land and snow.

the FS kites are little more expensive than the HQ / Ozone but totally worth the coin.

John Holgate - 29-7-2010 at 03:11 PM

If I could have only 2 kites they would be a 3m Hornet or Flow and a 7.5m Apex 2. The Apex is relatively gentle in gusty conditions (I find my 4m Beamer to more of a hand full) The 7.5m has plenty of power for buggy, snowboard (not that I've ever done that) etc. Won't be as fast or lifty as the Frenzy. The Apex turns faster and is easier to manage than an 6m Access XC and will pull in much lighter winds. The 5m Flow would be a lovely kite but I think the 7.5m Apex would be more versatile. I don't often static fly my Apex 5 or 7.5 - usually down the beach when I can go for long scuds without fear of breaking an ankle. Faster FB kites like the Reactor/Century etc will demand more skill and be less forgiving. There's a few vids of the 5m & 7.5m Apex on my site (see the flying the Apex 2 5m thread) to give you an idea on how they handle. Montana V is also sort of equivalent to the Frenzy (all good kites). One word about jumping (maybe two) read the "my kiting injury is bigger than your kiting injury" thread on extremekites.com.au and watch plenty of youtube jumping disasters videos. You'll quickly get the point!

Cheers,

John

PS: Personally, I much prefer flying on a bar than handles - it's more relaxing, a bit less tiring and I have never not been able to do something because I wasn't flying on handles. It's true that you will have more control with handles, but my point is that there is plenty control with the appropriate bar.

WELDNGOD - 29-7-2010 at 03:52 PM

FB on handles,bug or board .:ninja:

Maven454 - 29-7-2010 at 04:30 PM

Not really the time or place for the handles/bar argument guys.

indigo_wolf - 29-7-2010 at 05:12 PM

I think either are fine as long as you attach tassles to the end. :crazy: :smilegrin:



ATB,
Sam

snowspider - 29-7-2010 at 06:12 PM

At 135# you will more than happy with a 5m depower to develope your skills and then move up to a 7m for more performance. There is an advantage in sticking to one brand and that is all the safety releases will be identical which realy helps when your testing the limits of your abilities. I weight 150# and my 9.5 Montana flys me in any thing over 10mph. Good luck have fun!

nocando - 29-7-2010 at 08:18 PM

for more very good kite handling info go to this site

www.coastalwindsports.com

chudalicious - 29-7-2010 at 10:41 PM

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone!
Problem is, it is still tough to sort out what to do next!

I'll keep digging and see what happens!

heliboy50 - 30-7-2010 at 12:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chudalicious
Thanks for all the great feedback everyone!
Problem is, it is still tough to sort out what to do next!

I'll keep digging and see what happens!


Fly whatever you have, and do it a lot. Practice with what you have, watch for deals (even if you may not be ready for it yet, it can save you a bunch of money,) and try to meet up with your locals. Seeing it in person will be a huge help.