Power Kite Forum

Most depowerable of the bunch?

chudalicious - 12-8-2010 at 10:15 AM

Wondering and pondering...

Which of the bunch has the "most" depower?
- Apex II
- Montana IV
- Frenzy FYX
- Access XT

:ticking:

awindofchange - 12-8-2010 at 11:50 AM

I would say that the Frenzy FYX and the Montana IV has more depower than the Apex or Access. Between the two though it would really depend on the conditions you were riding in more than between each kite. Personally I feel the Frenzy is slightly more stable when fully depowered but as far as which one has the most depower, well I haven't really been in a situation to check that from one kite to the other side by side.

Maven454 - 12-8-2010 at 11:51 AM

Awfully hard to say since most of them aren't available in exactly the same sizes...

If I had to pick just one of them as my normal kite, I'd go with the Frenzy though.

revpaul - 12-8-2010 at 02:27 PM

not sure what the point of your question is but if you a want a kite with the widest range of depower you need to look at Flysufer.

chudalicious - 12-8-2010 at 02:44 PM

The point of my question was at all thing being equal (kite size, wind speed, activity), which of those listed had the highest range of depower.

I've been told the apex has 60% and the frenzy has 80% but then I read some reviews that the frenzy Fyx has little depower and that the new 2011 version promises to step it up more.

Just looking for some hands on user knowledge is all.

Thanks for your responses.

revpaul - 12-8-2010 at 03:39 PM

i have a 12m Flysurfer Pulse 2 and my brother has a Frenzy 12m. I (i'd bet he does too) prefer the Flysurfer.
we were skiing with those kites one day and he wanted me to try his frenzy out. with mine (FS) i was cruising at about 3/4 trimmed-3/4 power. he has about 50lbs on me and had his frenzy trimmed nearly for full power. after i grabbed his frenzy i took off like a rocket and had to trim his kite to 1/4 power before i could get the bar to ease off enough to operate comfortably. pulling the bar on any of my FSers is easy one-handed in most conditions i've flown in.
you could say the frenzy has more grunt i guess but it did/does collapse a lot coming out of the corners (you can call it mostly pilot error if you wish) where a FS does not. we've been buggying together with these two kites and i am fine with my FS while he can be get get a little hairy at the same time.
I buggy and ski with kites no water/board stuff.

Maven454 - 12-8-2010 at 03:55 PM

Out of curiosity, what model Frenzy? I found the Frenzy FYX I flew to be very, very easy to pull the bar in, so easy that I had to constantly tell myself to push it back out.

chudalicious - 12-8-2010 at 05:29 PM

I am curious which model as well...
Reason I am asking all this???

As mentioned in another thread not so long ago, I am quite new to the sport and have become quite interested in building my quiver. After reading all the feedback and taking into account safety concerns and that i want to eventually ATB and snowboard, I found a great deal on a new 5m apex II and new 7m frenzy fyx (I love to shop - can't help it being a girl and all) and just bit the bullet but I am wondering if I got a bit ahead of myself. Only flown 2m and 3m fixed bridles and set up and took the 5m out in almost non-existing winds but still got it to fly for a few moments before it landed softly. I don't plan on even unpacking the 7m frenzy until i am VERY confident with the 5m apex and can fly it like second nature (almost there with the 3m but that can surprise me sometimes too!) Hooking into the harness is quite new as well and offers a very different feel - that kind of "life on the line" (literally) kind of feel. It's also nice to give the lil arms a rest now and then too.

So the question... as I have mentioned, I am quite the timid Tina with these things - no need to go killin myself and having my HUGE (ha!) 135lb frame dragged across the state. Is it wishful thinking and a shopping addiction that could have led me to think I can fly the 7m by winter snowboard season (Dec/Jan) or should I just sell the frenzy and wait till i am ready for it (if ever)?? I just started about a month ago and have about 15 - 20 hours of flying and also got the progression DVD and Snowkite DVD for good measure.

Worth noting it was only blowing about 10mph the other day and i was too afraid to even take out the 5m apex so I just flew the 3m mostly unhooked and static and still got pulled around a bit when throwing it around. Yes, chicken indeed.

So the depower question relates to my level of confidence flying these suckers. If i know I can "dial it down" a bit to absorb some unpredictable crap wind, I think it would make me feel a bit better about my purchase, which is why I did not want to get a larger FB kite as I had heard time and time again that's how you break your riblets .:thumbdown: I figure learn on the 5 apex and then aspire to the frenzy but i fear I'll never get there :(

Did I make a bad decision? Will the 7m frenzy ever see the light o day?

gemini6kl - 12-8-2010 at 06:01 PM

a 3m fixed bridle kite has almost the same power as a 5m depower so you should be fine flying the 5m in 10mph winds. i do however know the feeling of life or death when hooked in via a harness i guess we all do, haha, but just get familiar with your quick release pull it a few times to test it and i guess tht helps to build a little confidence. the two kites u bought are perfect for your size but kind of close together in size though a better combination would have been a 4m and 7m or 8m expecially if u want to snowkite. i just recently bough a 7.5m apex2 and 10 apex and i find they are a little twitchy in anthing but stable winds, and tend to colapse which can be a little unerving , may be u will have better luck with the 5m.

revpaul - 12-8-2010 at 06:34 PM

Sorry, i should have been more clear. It's not an "Ozone" Frenzy. When we go out I just call it "the Frenzy".
it's a Frenzy knock off made by ....trying to think....Naish. i just googled "Naish Frenzy" and there is plenty of info about the kite.

from http://forum.kitecrowd.com/sale/7-5-naish-element-frenzy-clo...
"The Element was Naish's licensed copy of the Frenzy ('04 I believe) and is effectively identical; the same awesome build quality, top spec pulleys and colour-coded bridle."


This is a great high wind snowkiting or beach boarding setup, with plenty of pop and speed.
from what i understand it is/was a Frenzy clone made for Naish, by Ozone, in the same factory as Ozone's kites. the bar and CL assembly is Naish though and I like it way better than my Ozone Frenzy bar. i'd doubt they(Ozone/Naish) make it(Element) anymore.
brother bought it used in mint shape i think it's circa 06.
i have an Ozone Frenzy 7.3m (04-ish) and it's great for buggying. gentle/easy enough to handle in most winds but really is surprisingly fast(high forward speed) in it's high wind range.
-my brother has a quiver of Ozone Razors (just before Yakuza) and we had them out in high winds (40-kp/h). i was on a 3m Beamer III and just keeping ahead of Derek and his Razor 3.5. i then tried his 3.5m and what a blast it was... great speed and smooth power. i do really like my Beamer III 3m but i thought then, and still do, that i never felt that kind of smooth high speed pull, even in gusts, from a kite...right after i hooked up a buggy for tandem rider(about 150 lb+me at 180 lb)) and unrolled the 7.3 Frenzy. it pulled the both of us at a good friendly/fun pace. after the tandem buggy was unhooked i decided to go for a blast with the Frenzy and i got a super surprise. the same high speed and smooth handling of gusts that the Razor had just given me. thing just never stopped gaining speed.... just like the Razor. a gust was simply turned into more speed and not just a sharp tug and maybe a little slide of the rear axle.
*i tend to ride/buggy underpowered/sized for gusts though. for skiing i use more of kite's upper range.
simply put I've flown Ozone Frenzy and newer Access, HQ Neo, Naish Element(Frenzy) and Flysurfer Pulse, Pulse2, Speed, Speed 2and I like the FS.
try a FlySurfer back to back with some thing else and you'll see/feel the difference
iirc i think Flysurfer actually lists the depower affect, as a ratio, of it's kites. most FS kites have 1:7 or 1:8 depower ratio(don't ask me how they calculate these things).
i imagine newer Ozone depowers very well may have more depower.

tridude - 12-8-2010 at 07:03 PM

not on the list but for total depower thru the bar the Slingshot Rev is awesome............................easy self launch and a 9m should make a good snow kite..............

snowspider - 12-8-2010 at 08:00 PM

I ve got a 5m element and a 5m apex II. The element is smooth and predictable and the apex has faster speed , turning and a little more lift. I fly them both static all the time.I also have an apex II 7.5 . You can fly your 5m apex in any thing up to 10-12 mph smooth wind. Any thing greater or gusty will yank you around a bit. If you were in soft snow it would be fun but on hard ground it can take the joy out of it. This winter you will see most guys flying bigger kites up high in the window, they have more experience and are heavier than you. At 135# you can get by for a while with a smaller kite down lower in the window. When thats not good enough you'll be ready to pull out the 7m.
Have fun . Be sure to pad up, its like instant courage!

chudalicious - 12-8-2010 at 08:29 PM

[snowspider] = "You can fly your 5m apex in any thing up to 10-12 mph smooth wind"

Yikes! I thought that was almost the range for the 7m!

[snowspider] = "This winter you will see most guys flying bigger kites up high in the window, they have more experience and are heavier than you. At 135# you can get by for a while with a smaller kite down lower in the window."

Thinking so I don't get lifted? Funny thing is all the DVDs tell you to bring the kite to zenith to ease up on the power but the more I read, it seems parking it there is just asking for trouble. So keeping it low and at the edge is better than higher at the edge for this reason? I would think it would be harder to change direction (when I get to that point!) by keeping it low and then having to either sweep across the PZ - yikes! - or bring it round past noon in either direction??

[snowspider] = "At 135# you can get by for a while with a smaller kite down lower in the window. When thats not good enough you'll be ready to pull out the 7m"

If I have to keep the 5m down low in the window in only 10-12mph, when the heck would I ever need to break out the 7m?!

Ugh ohhhh... boys - there may be a sale on a brand new frenzy soon. :(


This is great info - very much appreciated!

Maven454 - 13-8-2010 at 02:47 AM

Don't sell the Frenzy. It is an excellent kite and when you get experience I can guarantee that you're going to want it. I'm 155 lbs and fly an 8m and a 12m Ozone Manta. My 130 lb flatmate can use my 6m and 10m Access XTs as pretty complete quiver. 5m Apex II and 7m Frenzy FYX are a bit close together but you'll get a bit different behavior out of them. The Frenzy flies closer to the side of the window and thus will have less down wind pull and be capable of a higher rate of speed.

I think that snowspider means that you can use the 5m in up to 10 to 12 while you're just learning.

@revpaul: So you were ripping on the Ozone Frenzy because you didn't like the way a copy of an early model Frenzy flew? :no:

jeanjockey - 13-8-2010 at 08:10 AM

Which of these has the most lift?

Maven454 - 13-8-2010 at 08:46 AM

Either the Frenzy or the Montana. Hard to tell with out trying them both one after the other. I'd go Frenzy, but that should be obvious from my signature.

B-Roc - 13-8-2010 at 09:11 AM

FWIW I think the depower range on my Gin Eskimo III is H-U-G-E and I can only imagine how it is on the IV series now. Not overly common but available through CN dealer.

I find the Pulse II to have good depower too and excellent low wind performance but it over powers me in situations I hoped to be able to fly it in and just can't - maybe that's due to me, but that's what I've found.

revpaul - 13-8-2010 at 09:26 AM

Quote:


@revpaul: So you were ripping on the Ozone Frenzy because you didn't like the way a copy of an early model Frenzy flew? :no:

yep i guess if ripping means talking badly against a product.
sorry.

-"Naish has more grunt" (ripping?)
-it collapsed more often- (ripping?) but i called it mostly pilot error..what's the problem with saying that? do you thing a closed cell foil collapses as easily as an open cell foil in a beginners hands?
-i liked the bar set up (ripping?)
-newer Fenzy may very well have more depower (ripping?)


i said i like the 12m Pulse2 better(ripping?)


-for the OP-
you may not want to put a whole lot of stock in people's opinions.
people may use the same things differently.
ie. macboy told me a story about an outing with his first 19m Speed2 SA. he was kite-skiing with it and was struggling somewhat in winds far, far lower than 30 kp/h. he met another kite-skiier who claimed that he uses that particular kite well into 30kp/h+ winds.
(this is a guy who kite-skiis alot and kiteboards too)
macboy and i can't imagine it but we are pretty much beginner level. my 12m Pulse2 is enough for me (skiing) at 25-30 kp/h(which is still way short of what the specs state is it's upper wind range) for my 180 lb arse. For buggying 20 kp/h in my tight riding area is about the limit.
like most all other things different levels of experience and hours put in make a big difference.
-keepyour Frenzy itwill be absolutely fun and fantastic for you because you will use it in "your" wind range and comfort zone.
i can take my off-road motor-cycle through a particular section "tapped" in fourth gear. someone else get's on it and is going to smash themselves into a tree at that speed. i'm saying i can go in 4rth gear not that you should too.
Paul

indigo_wolf - 13-8-2010 at 10:45 AM

chudalicious,

Keep the Frenzy.... they don't come up for sale often and you will kick yourself later.

Honestly, the best thing you can probably do is hookup with dgkid78. His home field is about 45 minutes from you and he's been flying his Montana's with his landboard for a bit now.

He started on a Montana 7.5 and is still around and kicking.

FWIW: I think your goals will be easier to attain with a wingman who already followed a path that is similar to the one you are heading down.

ATB,
Sam

chudalicious - 13-8-2010 at 12:11 PM

Thanks again guys for all the helpful feedback.

Indigo - ever at Pope John Paul field? Been there a few time in crap wind but if you are ever headed that way, I'd give an arm and leg to meet up!

I'll have to U2U DG and see if there's a chance on that front as well. To kite with someone who knows his stuff would be amazing! I'm even thinking of driving to NJ in Oct just to get a better feel for the sport and maybe make some new friends.

:wee:
(I had to be a poser and try and pretend to use this icon as others do only my version of"wee man" needs a change of skivvies)

indigo_wolf - 13-8-2010 at 01:18 PM

I fly at PJP, Millenium, Colt State Park, Brenton Point.

Keep looking for other places on and off as it sucks to drive someplace and get scragged by lack of winds or even worse an over abundance of soccer players.

dgkid probably gets more fly time than I do by a good stretch, as most people don't seem to know about Fort Tabor (I really need to make it down there).

Quote:

To kite with someone who knows his stuff would be amazing!


Well, that might be an overstatement. :spin: Still flying mostly FBs and making friends with a 6M Ozone Access XT.

Fingers crossed that the mid-week winds hold out for tomorrow.... heading north to fly with a friend and grab dinner tomorrow.

I should be out and about more often now that the Fall is here (still my favorite time of the year to fly).

If I know in advance the next time I am headed towards R.I., I'll hit you with a U2U.

Must perform the bittersweet ritual tomorrow morning to pick which kites to pack, before heading North :sniff:

ATB,
Sam

John Holgate - 13-8-2010 at 04:21 PM

I get the feeling from reading your posts that you've been flying static? Once you get moving on atb/snowboard your kite will be at the edge of the window and you will find you need quite a bit more wind than you think. I still keep putting up kites that I think are suited to the wind only to realize 10 minutes later that I should have put up a bigger kite! Ha, should be obvious really, everyone around is flying 9-12m kites and I put up a 5m!! If I can stand there and comfortably fly a kite static, then it won't have enough pull for my buggy. (that will depend on the surface somewhat). I find my 7.5m Apex is more forgiving and less of a worry to fly than my 4m Beamer in the same wind. It's always better to put up a kite that's too small and swap for a bigger one than the other way around!

revpaul - 13-8-2010 at 04:50 PM

Right. what John Holgate said.
If I launch a kite and it does not easily scud me then it's not jamm enough for buggying either.

dgkid78 - 13-8-2010 at 05:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by indigo_wolf
chudalicious,

Keep the Frenzy.... they don't come up for sale often and you will kick yourself later.

Honestly, the best thing you can probably do is hookup with dgkid78. His home field is about 45 minutes from you and he's been flying his Montana's with his landboard for a bit now.

He started on a Montana 7.5 and is still around and kicking.

FWIW: I think your goals will be easier to attain with a wingman who already followed a path that is similar to the one you are heading down.

ATB,
Sam


Hey Chud!! I replied to your U2U...Indigo thanks for the heads up as I am always up to meeting someone in the area!!!:roll:

B-Roc - 13-8-2010 at 05:18 PM

Chud, where are you located? There's plenty of flying and fliers on the northshore in Nahant after labor day comes and goes. Might be worth your while to get up there.

chudalicious - 13-8-2010 at 06:36 PM

Wow! This is one hell of a welcome, thanks so much guys!

To John, yes, I have been flying static so the pull is getting a bit much at times. I had heard not to even try on a board yet until I am super super good on my 3M FB but I'm getting to the point that I just may try it anyway.

Looks like I'll be keeping the frenzy (thanks to all the feedback) let's hope I can get some serious learning on so I can use it before I'm too old and broken.

:embarrased:

chudalicious - 13-8-2010 at 06:38 PM

Broc - live on boarder of RI and MA so not too far away to take it over the state lines.

Again, thanks everyone for all the feedback.

Looking forward to hooking up with some of you guys and flying (or trying to!)

snowspider - 13-8-2010 at 07:16 PM

Instead of "low in the window" I should have said "deeper in the power zone"
I can be ripping along a snow covered lake with my 5m off to the side 10 feet above the snow and go the same speed as my friend with a larger kite flying higher in the power zone. Now if the snow gets deeper I'm going to slow down maybe even get stuck (damn). My friend with the bigger kite can just dip hers down lower and scoop some pull out of the wind and keep right on going(damn). So both will work up to the point where you just need more power which in this case means a bigger kite. Fly the 5m as much as possible and the transition over to the 7m will be doable, it will have more lift and pull but thats what you will need in the snow. Hang on to your 7m, its going to fly more gentle than your apex , you've got a nice combination of kites for a light weight .
.