Power Kite Forum

Advice for an over eager noob

High Flyer - 12-8-2010 at 05:53 PM

Right so I've never flown a quad line kite before and against most peoples advice and my better judgment I've just ordered a 4.9m Blade 3 from ebay.

Is this going to kill me?

I bought a 2m Flexi Buzz a month or so ago and although its fun I found myself getting a bit bored once I mastered a few tricks. Also, I had my first go buggying with it and decided (wrongly?) its just not built for cross winds, so I decided to get a traction kite.

Now I know I've kinda jumped in at the deep end, but other than starting in very low winds and using kite killers what safety precautions should I take?

Please don't say get a smaller kite cos I'm just not going to :wee:

ICTKITEFLYER - 12-8-2010 at 05:54 PM

yeah dont fly over 13 mph how much do you weigh?

High Flyer - 12-8-2010 at 06:00 PM

Dunno, like 13 stone.

furbowski - 12-8-2010 at 06:48 PM

the ground and the quality of the wind can help.

straight wind, i.e. onshore / smooth and a minimum of gusts will be a lot better.

The III's are known for their instant response to gusts, however a 4.9 isn't that much of a handful for your weight up to about 12-15 mph. gusts beyond that will likely scare / exhilarate you, depending... It will pull and scud you make no mistake.

another thing that will help is having lots of room downwind.

another thing is the ground... soft loose sand is the best, hard slick wet grassy ground the worst. you want to be able to dig in your heels and hold the kite down, when you can't hold the kite anymore you'll scud, the transition from holding to scudding is gentle and slower on soft sand, more quick and agressive on wet grass.

also you'll want to fly your kite differently, keep it closer to the edges. when you launch, get it up to zenith, play around up there be careful how you dip it into the power zone. On the two meter you're likely used to tossing the kite about all all over the place, this won't be how you want to fly a big kite when powered up.

When you launch, turn the kite sideways and fly it to the edge of the window b4 going to the zenith. A little brake will help to keep it from inflating fully if it really wants to go (10+ mph). In 8 mph or less, you may need to turn and fly it sideways to the edge to get it inflated and flying. Don't yank the kite off the ground, a nice steady pull with a couple steps backwards will do it. Try to use the brakes right away, get used to landing the kite early, don't wait til you get pumped before you land it. Avoid full-on hot launches if the wind is at all strong.

The key is getting the right wind (8-10 mph) for your first flights, as well as not flying it like the 2m i.e. all over the window.

(a couple edits and adds below...)

hope that helps.... If it's a little hard to launch due to slow inflation, you've got less than 8 mph, a gentle wind for a first flight.

also if the wind seems strong, i.e. the kite looks like it's bouncing a little on the ground and all quivery and eager for a flight, don't go for a full on launch. try standing the kite up a bit by increasing tension on the power lines while still keeping a bit of brake in the mix. once it gets off the ground, brake on, get it back down, then up a little further, then back down, then up a little more, enough to turn and go for the edge of the window. Often a little continuing brake tension will keep it from inflating fully and keep the power down, then when you release the brake and give it some speed, it will get the right shape and pull hard...

Have fun....

vwbrian - 12-8-2010 at 06:55 PM

If you are planning on riding buggys Get a HQ Beamer to start with 3-4M. It is a good stable kite that will give you lots of forgiveness.

Bladerunner - 12-8-2010 at 07:44 PM

The Blade has a LOT of lift . Be very careful not to allow it to travel back behind 12 oclock when traveling or you will get lifted more easily than some other kites.

It is a great kite as long as you respect it. I expect you know it has the nick name of " the widow maker " . That is due to it's lift but lack of canopy size to bring you down softly unless you get it just right.

Try and find that balance between excited and safe ! Try and learn to fly the kite without looking at it .

Can you explain " not designed for cross winds ? The Buzz should work but if it is small you just had too little wind. It will make a good super high wind kite down the road !

furbowski - 12-8-2010 at 07:52 PM

i should add my advice is just from a static viewpoint, look to the guys above for anything to do with buggies board... :)

kitemaker4 - 13-8-2010 at 07:30 AM

Do you have a helmet. Safety gear would be nice.

Susan (npw goddess)

dylanj423 - 13-8-2010 at 07:38 AM

watch a lot of kite accident videos on youtube... keep it real.... know that you can get hurt really bad... you will likely hurt yourself in the process of learning, just try to minimize the consequences by maintaining a healthy respect for the wind and your conditions..

above all... keep an eye on those around you... at all cost do not let your kite flying hurt someone else

check out kitemare ... i forget if its a .org or a .com site

pads and a helmet are good, too

indigo_wolf - 13-8-2010 at 08:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
Can you explain " not designed for cross winds ? The Buzz should work but if it is small you just had too little wind. It will make a good super high wind kite down the road !


To the best of my knowledge the Buzz (0.8m) and Big Buzz (2.05m) are two line recreational foils. Not sure it is sufficiently reinforced to handle nukin' winds. Smaller Stings with Extreme Lines have been used as buggy engines in 50mph winds. The Stings can be had as dual or quad lines (although I think the 3.3m is quad only).

ATB,
Sam

High Flyer - 13-8-2010 at 03:38 PM

Thanks guys.

I have a full face helmet but I'd look like a bit of a twat wearing that I think, could I get away with a cycling helmet?

Yeah I've heard of "the widow maker" is that all blades or just the 4.9m?

Also, should I bother getting an Anemometer or is that a waste of time at this point?

tridude - 13-8-2010 at 03:48 PM

the 4.9 was tagged as the widow maker...........................you may want to buy something smaller and less lifty, and build your skillz.....................most on here have not flown Blades.......................I have 2 yrs plus on Blades and even in lighter winds they are a handful, especially for someone with no 4 line experience.....................cycling helmet that has a safety impact rating will be fine...............................again consider a smaller lower AR kite to build your skillz.............................................good luck and be careful

High Flyer - 13-8-2010 at 05:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
Can you explain " not designed for cross winds ?


Well, when its hangs at the edge of the wind window its has absolutely no pull. I realise it should have less pull, but on the buggying videos I've seen they dont have to shift the kite back and forth much, its just stays mostly in one position and drags them along.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF0RVTORsS8#t=1m42s

So I figured it was probably the wrong kite design as it couldn't possibly be my ability :P

Bladerunner - 13-8-2010 at 06:11 PM

I get it now. I think it is just plain too small. The term you are looking for is " park and ride " . You can do that when you have the right wind for the size of kite you are flying. Too little wind and you can sometimes make it up by pumping the kite along in a sine wave ~.
What you want to be EXTRA careful about is too much wind. With an advanced kite like that and only the one you will find that point of too much wind will come very early at 1st. RESPECT THAT and learn the to " live to fly another day " like we all have had to do many times. This is why we all have so many sizes of kites.

Go to www.coastalwindsports.com and pour over all the great info that Angus has put together there for getting stared.

YES it is just the 4.9 Blade that has that nick name. The issue is that it WILL lift you very easily but is not big enough to float you back down unless you time everything just right. That isn't likely to happen during an " OBE "! Try and avoid standing around with this ( or any ) kite at zenith. They are VERY PRONE to catching a gust and lifting you. If you keep the kite off at 10 or 2 you won't get lifted so drastically.
Keep it low and go!
:bigok:

John Holgate - 13-8-2010 at 08:45 PM

Quote:

Well, when its hangs at the edge of the wind window its has absolutely no pull. I realise it should have less pull, but on the buggying videos I've seen they dont have to shift the kite back and forth much, its just stays mostly in one position and drags them along.


As far as I know, all kites at the edge of the window will have very little pull. But things change quite a bit when you are in motion (ie: buggying).

As Bladerunner said, Angus has got some great info that I have referred to many times. Particularly the 'better buggy basics'. Highly recommended.

High Flyer - 15-8-2010 at 12:48 PM

Since I've been buzzing about my kite arriving I've been talking to everybody I've met about it, and found at least 3 power kiting enthusiasts. One of thems agreed to meet up with me when I get my kite. So he can show me a few of the nuances, although hes a bit of a know it all cos he wouldn't accept theres such a thing as a "depower" kite.

He said all 4 strings are depower and I guess in a sense hes right but a depower kite is its own thing correct? Tell me I'm right here.

furbowski - 15-8-2010 at 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by High Flyer
So he can show me a few of the nuances, although hes a bit of a know it all cos he wouldn't accept theres such a thing as a "depower" kite.

He said all 4 strings are depower and I guess in a sense hes right but a depower kite is its own thing correct? Tell me I'm right here.


be careful around know it alls.... they need to be open to learning, otherwise they're stuck on a downhill ride towards fossildom.

Yep, you're right. All fixed bridles kites have their angle of attack fixed due to multiple attachments on the bridle canopy coming to a single point... you can put tension on the back edge of the kite with the brake lines, but that tension will not pivot the whole canopy of the kite with regards to it's angle of attack. depower kites are designed so that varying the tension on the rear lines (brake lines on FB) will pivot the entire canopy, leading edge to trailing edge, with regards to the angle of attack. All depower kites pivot the whole body of the kite somehow on the power lines, all fixed bridle kites cannot pivot. Some depower kites are really simple (PL phantom), others much more complex (Flysurfer psycho 4)

John Holgate - 15-8-2010 at 03:00 PM

With a normal fixed bridle your brake lines are connected to the trailing edge. When you pull your brakes on they act a little like flaps on an airplane - they create more lift (because of the way they alter the shape of the aerofoil) but they also create more drag. If your static flying and pull on the brakes the kite will slow down and often stall - you don't have the air speed to overcome the drag. When you are moving in the buggy the kite sees a lot more apparent wind and when you pull the brakes on then, there's enough lift to overcome the drag and you get MORE power out of your kite. It will also sit back a bit in the window. Given enough brakes, you can usually still slow the kite right down and stall it but it's quite an interesting feeling the first time you pull on a bit of brake when your moving at speed and you get more power!!

A Depower kite is set up in the bridles differently. When you pull the 'brakes' (pull the bar back) it's not just the brakes that are affected but the b & c bridle rows via a pulley. This changes the angle of the kite (angle of attack) so it can be more or less powerful. Example - stick your hand out the window of your car and vary the angle that you hold your hand into the wind - you'll feel the difference in 'lift' generated. This is what happens with a depower kite.

Depower kites and fixed bridle kites are different beasts. When a gust hits you with a fixed bridle you just ride it out, with a depower you can let the bar out - which lessens the angle of attack and 'spills' a bit of wind which sort of counter-acts the gusts.

Both kites have their pros and cons.

acampbell - 15-8-2010 at 03:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by High Flyer
Since I've been buzzing about my kite arriving I've been talking to everybody I've met about it, and found at least 3 power kiting enthusiasts. One of thems agreed to meet up with me when I get my kite. So he can show me a few of the nuances, although hes a bit of a know it all cos he wouldn't accept theres such a thing as a "depower" kite.

He said all 4 strings are depower and I guess in a sense hes right but a depower kite is its own thing correct? Tell me I'm right here.


Already you know more than he does, it appears, so watch out.

High Flyer - 15-8-2010 at 03:01 PM

Thanks. So a when you pull the brakes on a fixed bridle it decreases pull by collapsing the whole aerofoil. Whereas when you pull the brakes on a depower kite it shifts the angle of the entire wing, kindof like when you hold your hand out of a car window and twist your wrist?

High Flyer - 15-8-2010 at 03:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by John Holgate
stick your hand out the window of your car and vary the angle that you hold your hand into the wind


haha perfect, I wrote the last post before reading that. Sounds like I got it right/am in the right place for advice. :D

Bladerunner - 15-8-2010 at 03:39 PM

Many kites also shape shift nad create a smaller " projected area " combined with the change in Angle Of Attack.

flexiblade - 15-8-2010 at 04:01 PM

I started with a 4m Flexifoil Blade III - the next kite I purchased was a 4.9m Blade III - they can be amazing buggy engines but as you've been hearing in the earlier posts they are very, very lifty kites. Here's a vid of me cruising my local field with the old girl.



This was a rare clean wind day - not too gusty. If the area/s that you have scouted have any trees or hills around them it will make the wind a tad choppy if it is coming from the direction of the obstacles.

The beach is by far the best wind and the best surface (sand). The biggest draw back to wet grass are sprained ankles and in my case a torn achilles tendon (took a good 3 months to walk straight, 6 months to stop limping), the slightest gust can throw off your balance in wet grass.

Take your time and don't push it until you feel comfortable with your control skills of "this" kite. Just because you practiced on a four line kite don't think for a second that a 4.9m blade will be the same experience. When you do end up pushing yourself by going out in increasing wind speeds it is just a matter of time until you get hurt, the real unknown part is how bad are you going to get hurt. This is where practice and safety gear (helmet and pads) will help minimize and maybe even avoid injury.

Have fun and remember, it's like learning to walk, one step at a time. A running baby never ends well.

High Flyer - 15-8-2010 at 04:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
Many kites also shape shift nad create a smaller " projected area " combined with the change in Angle Of Attack.


I don't understand what you mean


Quote:
Originally posted by flexiblade
Just because you practiced on a four line kite

only practiced on a 2 line lol

I am planning on being respectfull of it. I was thinking of mostly lying down/sitting to start with, that way it can only pull me up onto my feet. Good idea or pointless?

furbowski - 15-8-2010 at 04:37 PM

here's a quick vid to help...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr6GzsC-zd8

(psycho IV triple depower vid)

the jump from 2 lines to 4 lines can be confusing, the most common cause for confusion is unintentional brake-line use due to gripping the handles too tightly. Watch your brakelines carefully while flying, they should be slack if you point the brake ends of the handles at the kite, and tight if you pull the brake ends back towards you. You should be able to play with the brakes and powers a bit while the kite is on the ground. Also you should be able to pivot the handles while flying. If your kite does wonky things, try pointing the brake ends of the handles at the kite so the brakes are permanently slack, then fly it like a 2-line. That will likely clear up the problem, esp. in lighter winds. too much brake at the edge of the window is esp. frustrating for many, the kite will be impossible to turn back to power and will just stall out and fall to the ground.

If there's too much wind (15+) sitting or lying down won't help all that much, but it's better than standing up.

btw, you won't get a power boost off the brakes while fling static, but you will if you are riding something.

John Holgate - 16-8-2010 at 12:13 AM

Quote:

that way it can only pull me up onto my feet.


LOL! It can do a bit more than that if you get it wrong!! Check out this guy doing a jump with a 4m Blade: Jumping with a blade

There are some ripper videos, do a search on Kite Jumping - it will give you some idea of the power of a 5m kite.

Enjoy:smilegrin:

joedy - 16-8-2010 at 03:35 AM

To illustrate the concept of "projected area" hold your hand parallel to the table as flat and stiff as you can make your hand.

While keeping your hand still, look down from above your hand at the amount of "space" that your hand and fingers takes up.


Now, make your hand in the shape of a "C" (like you're holding your favorite beer), but don't move or change the orientation of your hand; just bend your fingers down into a "C" shape.

Look above your hand and notice how much less area is now seen from above.


This is the same way with kites. Changing the projected area doesn't mean that you magically lose kite material when you launch the kite into the air, but from the ground it appears to have "shrunk" in size.



Changing the planform is a different concept altogether, however. This would be akin to cutting or adding finger lengths in the above exercise.... so, it's a little more challenging to illustrate.... :wink2:

-joedy