macboy - 6-2-2011 at 12:35 PM
There are not many Arc users around Edmonton so they are all interested when they see them but it's inevitable that they ask "how big" (either because
they are trying to size themselves for the day or are just genuinely curious). More often than not I can't help but feel that people either think I'm
crazy to fly that size that day (I'm not crazy - I'm quite conservative actually) OR they think I'm God-kiter able to handle something that big that
given day.
Well I'm not that either.
The discussion then comes to the ARC shape, projected areas, blah, blah, blah so today I looked it all up. What caught my attention was the
comparative projected area between my 13m Venom and my 15m Phantom. The Venom is 9.1m projected and the Phantom is only .4m more - 9.5m.
Thing is, I had launched the Phanny yesterday and it was so powered up I was getting lofted and couldn't hold it back. I packed it away since I was
aiming to get some snowboard time on and unpacked the V13 which entertained me through all the pain and suffering for the rest of the afternoon, oddly
enough feeling actually UNDERPOWERED once I got moving yet still fighting to hold things back static. Imagine my shock to learn how close in size they
are now :puzzled:
Everything was just weird yesterday and I am referring to it as a "bad day" but at least I opened my eyes to something new - the way the aspect ratios
come into play - AND HOW! The power I felt from the Phanny compared to the Venom was immense.
(Oh yeah, and the Venom wriggled itself free as I was packing up. I chased it for about 50 yards in the knee deep snow and another kiter saw it and
chased it down. Took me 5 minutes to walk back to where it wriggled free from.)
Bad day. But I'm still smilin'.
Kamikuza - 6-2-2011 at 05:31 PM
You got it 
Feyd - 6-2-2011 at 06:06 PM
Like my 16m F-Arc compared to my 15m Charger.
Both about the same PA but the F-Arc pulls like Molly's 19m P4 SA.
Flew a few days back with a friend who's 70lbs lighter than me. He was on the 15m CH and I was on the 16m F-Arc. He was well powered and I was
completed OP'd, skimming the snow with the kite directly overhead completely lit.
The thing I dig the most about high AR is the crazy upwind ability. I cant believe how the F-Arc goes upwind.
Houston AirHead - 6-2-2011 at 06:12 PM
PHREERIDER - 6-2-2011 at 06:30 PM
i think the little extra power even with more drag is a net gain for the phantom esp. including the extra window reach.
a fraction more efficient? ...well hidden drag!
IMHO these 2 series are central peak efficiency for PL , the more powerful hi-speed phantom and quicker turning venom.
whats the data on the breeze?
g-force junkie - 6-2-2011 at 06:46 PM
Macboy,
It's weird but we had a day just like that on Saturday, I thought I had the Venoms figured out and have been getting some great sessions on them, but
then we had winds 10mph gusting to 30 and back to 10, the gusts were doable on my 10, but the lulls were killer, found out all kinds of things I've
only read about the arcs but it was all fun and nobody got hurt.Bad day snowkiting way better than a good day at work.
BeamerBob - 6-2-2011 at 09:31 PM
Seems like I read somewhere that the published data for the venoms on projected area was off a little. Like they used a different way to measure it
and changed it later on the synergy. With the performance that Phree gets out of the 13 venom, I bet it is really bigger than published.
macboy - 6-2-2011 at 11:44 PM
I don't imagine it was much over 20mph, gusts to maybe 25 mph? Of course the "published average" for yesterday is 17mph so we were all somewhere in
there.
krumly - 7-2-2011 at 07:08 PM
Feyd and Macboy -
In 1915 the aerodynamicist Ludwig Prandtl did wind tunnel tests on rectangular wings of varying aspect ratios. A wing of 7:1 aspect ratio had about
20% -25% higher lift-to-drag- than a corresponding 5:1 aspect ratio model. That seems roughly analogous to going from FArc to Venom.
The flip side is the range of angle of incidence on the higher aspect wing is proportionately less. It 'sees' an effective higher angle of attack
than the lower aspect wing at the same angle of incidence - has a higher lift slope - so it hits the stall angle of attack sooner. Ya never get
something for nothing.
krumly
Feyd - 11-2-2011 at 06:31 AM
I took the F-Arc 1600 out yesterday over in Maine. The local Flysurfer guys told me that they had windpacked powder and the report was for winds
about 11mph.
The Flysurfer guys don't know the difference between windpacked pow and 4" of crust. They had crust and the winds were blowing around 15mph+
The F-Arc 16m with powder skis on crust was a bad combination. She had her way with me for the most part but I smoked a Speed 3 going upwind tho so
that was fun.
Put on 10 mile in 45 minutes, fighting to hold position on the beast the whole time. Went back and got the Charger 15m.
42 miles for the day.
Yes Krumly, there is a noticeable limit to the amount of AOA you can throw into the F-Arc. Especially at low speed. I find it handy for getting her
on the ground and for killing speed. I wondered if it would make a VPC type set up unusable on the F-Arc.
I've found that if there's any amount of wind over 12mph, on the snow, she's much harder to stall with my forward speeds.
I find the raw power, ability to go upwind better than anything I've flown so far, and the crazy amount of glide more than off set the increased far
outweigh the increased stall tendency.:wee:
Now, if I could get a little depow out of her then I'd be set. She does depow on the Navi a bit but only about 20% I would guess. Kite placement is
the best way I've found to handle power management on this thing.
I'd like to get some water skills and take her out and really try boosting with her. But there is no way in hell that I could get her airborn again
if I screwed up and landed her in the water.
krumly - 11-2-2011 at 12:15 PM
Chris -
Wonder if a front bridle might be the depower ticket? I just put one on a Farc 1200 and hope to get it out for a test this weekend. Same with a GI
13m. Might make launching easier too, as it reduces invert and bowtie. But I saw how you finessed the Farc on the ground in your video - you probably
don't need to worry about that!
The Guerillas are much easier to launch, but on any of'em being able to inflate by pumping and fluffing the leading edge with the front lines like a
foil is handy.
Opened up the trailing edge of my 9m GII, freed the rear strap in the center 7 cells, reinforced the ribs at the strap slots, and made starp
adjustable. Better low end for sure.
krumly