Power Kite Forum

New Kite, New Flyer - Hydra 3.5?

sconley - 14-4-2011 at 11:47 PM

Greetings all, I am a newb... I have never flown a power kite... There are no local schools, there are no local flyers (I'm in the farm fields of Indiana), but I am determined to try it so I will have to teach myself as I go along. I don't have much to spend so I would like my first kite to be something I can grow into a little bit, and possibly even use it on water (not with a board or anything, but for some reason I just like the idea of being able to fly it over water should I venture off land one day). I was considering the Hydra 3.5. I'm 200 lbs, I have a pilots license (not sure why I think that has some application here, as it probably doesn't help much if at all?)... Any thoughts on a 200 lb newb starting with a Hydra 3.5? Would it be too much to start with, would it quickly not be enough? Any other potential water kites that are relatively easy to launch and fly yourself that anyone would recommend? Winds are typically 5 to 17 mph, maybe occasionally we get 20+ mph winds that occurs outside of a T-storm...

shehatesmyhobbies - 15-4-2011 at 04:32 AM

For the conditions you are talking about this sounds like a nice beginner for you. In the winds you are talking about, it would not be too much to handle.

dman - 15-4-2011 at 05:09 AM

That would be a great kite for for you to start with. Easy to fly and relaunch and once it warms up you can do some body dragging in the water with it. Once you are confident enough with a large volume board like a stand up paddle board, you could actually kite surf with the 350 in the right winds.

acampbell - 15-4-2011 at 07:03 AM

Yeah the Hydra is a great recreational kite to start with and fun to play with on the water. Having your pilot's license indicates you should have respect for the wind and weather.
If you get up on a SUP board, the kite will pull you but not upwind well; the hydra tends to stay too far back in the window for that. But it's a fun and a sturdy kite. When you later take it out in higher winds, be sure to tighten up on the brake line; I've seen a Hydra drag a 200 pound guy down the beach when tossed to safety because there was not enough scope on the center brake line.

sconley - 15-4-2011 at 08:49 AM

Thanks for the solid feedback everyone, much appreciated... So I stumbled across the Rush IV Pro 3.5 Trainer kite... It's not for use on water, but I read that the nature of the Hydra design makes it ever so slightly less durable when used over dry land, and the Rush IV is also a lot less expensive... My additional question is, would I be better off buying the Rush IV 3.5 (or another inexpensive land-use trainer) to use on land and get acquainted with everything until I decide to move up in power and/or go in the water with it, and then buy a 4m or 5m kite for water use? It sounds like the Hydra would be fun in the water even after I got bored with it on land, assuming I didn't damage it before that happened... Additionally, are there any thoughts on starting out with a Scout 4m in light winds or am I tempting fate by being penny wise and a pound foolish?

truman - 15-4-2011 at 09:25 AM

I don't know what you are prepared to spend but the flysurfer Viron is an excellent beginner kite for both water and land and is also something you could grow with for quite a while I flew the 4m this winter and it was a blast! It would also pull you around on some skii's in the winter time. but the rush pro or the hydra are both also great kites.

sconley - 15-4-2011 at 09:33 AM

I looked into the Viron a bit but they don't seem to have a dealer network in the US and I can't find any US dollar denominated prices... They also look a bit more involved with a harness... Do you know if the Viron comes ready to fly or would I need to assemble it and rig it?

acampbell - 15-4-2011 at 09:37 AM

Don't sell the Hydra short on durability. Any kite can be torn, but there is nothing about the Hydra that makes it any more vulnerable than other kites. I have seen mine slammed full on in 20 mph winds in a crash that I had expected to blow some cells but it just bounced.
Insomuch as you you seem risk-aware, you could start with a 4m scout in winds 6-10. Another great kite and it will go upwind better than a Hydra. Nothing stopping you from taking it on the water so long as you know that if it touches the water it instantly becomes laundry on a string.

stetson05 - 15-4-2011 at 09:55 AM

one of the benefits to the hydra is that once inflated in low winds it keeps it's shape really well. My son has flown his 300 in the low range when the wind dies. Another open cell kite wouldn't get off the ground because it just didn't get enough air in the cells.

truman - 15-4-2011 at 10:49 AM

The Viron comes RTF You will just need a harness the advantage is you will learn depower.

Bambooben - 15-4-2011 at 11:32 AM

Hey, I've been reading here for a good 6 months, but haven't gotten around to posting.
Wanted to chime in because I'm also a new flyer and already bought a Hydra 3.5 a few months ago.
So far I'm really happy. At first I had a hard time at the start of a flying session with getting the kite "inflated" or filled with air. I feel like it has gotten easier and less frustrating, but the first few times it had me questioning my purchase.

Now though I get it up pretty quick and it is a ton of fun. I personally have crashed it simi-hard once, and when I let my boss try it she crashed it hard a couple of times. I had read the warning about poping like a paper sack from a hard crash, so I was worried, but so far it is still in perfect shape.

As far as your weight, I'm at about 180, and it can give you a good pull. One of the first days I had it up the wind was at 20mph, but with occasional gusts. So I had the idea to use one of those giant corkscrews you use to chain a dog up in the yard. I used a strap of webbing and a caribiner to clip my self in. Well, a big gust came along and I was getting pulled and heard a loud pop. Check out the pic below of my caribiner.

Ended up getting drug about 10 feet on my knees. Good thing there is a break line on the Hydra. Needless to say, I have a lot more respect for kiting afterward.

And anyone looking for some good pants should find some new Columbia brand with OmniShield. I had some bad grass stains and they came out pretty easily. Water just beads up on them too.

photo.jpg - 101kB

erratic winds - 15-4-2011 at 12:11 PM

That is not a carabiner that would hold any sort of weight. That is strictly a promotional item. Use only carabiners that are designed for high loads such as climbing equipment.

Tethering yourself to the ground when flying a power kite is an incredibly dangerous idea. Here is what often occurs.
.

Certainly not trying to scare you, I just am trying to warn ya away from a dangerous method of flying that often leads to injury.

Glad to hear you've been having a great time! Keep flying! I hope you have great winds in your future!

Bladerunner - 15-4-2011 at 03:25 PM

Welcome!

Bambooben . Attaching yourself to a stationary object is a No No !!!!

You are LUCKY you used an inferior carabiner! You would have been lifted and then slammed to the ground and that 'biner could have been your brain!

Sconely,

You sound like a super sensible guy! You have come to the right place for any questions!
YES, being a pilot you understand a LOT. A kite is a wing . Lift is lift! Cheaping out can be a mistake.
I am not familiar with the Rush Pro but know the Hydra. Fixed bridle kites can come on handles or a bar . The Hydra is on a bar because it is kitesurf focused in it's training. Handles offer individual brake control and it adds a whole LOT to the flying experience. Coming from your background I think you will very much appretiate a fixed bridle on handles.

You can take an open cell out on water. If you crash you are unlikely to relaunch and must roll up, go to the shore and start again. You CAN fly the kite wet!

That 3 + 5m Beamer deal in the for sale section is amazing. I say go for IT !

Check out www.kitesurfingschool.org and www.coastalwindsports.com for excellent advice getting started.

highazakite - 15-4-2011 at 06:22 PM

Ive had a hydra for more than a year now. am still glad i got it. it still has a lot of fun value. it flies in almost no wind once its full. Ive had a couple of occasions that it proved to be way more than i could hold on to (im about 220) so start out slow and if the sand is crawling think about flying another day.

this kite stays in the truck and goes flying at least once a week (wind permitting )

Like others here have said this place is great for real info from good people. almost everyone here respects the safety and enjoyment of the kiting community.

ripsessionkites - 15-4-2011 at 06:38 PM

trainers are good if you've never used a kite before (talking kitesurfing)

if you plan on being on land, just get a 3m Four Line Foil and skip the trainer.

the hydra is nice trainer to let you water relaunch it, but learning to water relaunch a Hydra to a LEI / TS is completely different. the hydra will take you from learning to fly to body dragging (high winds). I personally would feel safer with a 9m LEI or a TS to learn body dragging.

sconley - 16-4-2011 at 02:28 PM

I see, so when I tether myself down to the ground I should use the shortest rope possible? ;)

DHKITE - 16-4-2011 at 05:21 PM

Nope, DONT TETHER YOURSELF TO THE GROUND..

you are asking for injury, What this does is allows tension to build in the line and when lines are tense something has to give, Likely your ground tether will break or it will pull free from the ground and when it does, ou're going up up up and coming down hard.

learn to Scudd, or butt scudd, its much more fun and safer.. if the wind is too much then dont fly, I learned this the hard way last october when I tried jumpin with MY hydra 350 and was hit by a powerfull gust and updraft that lifted me 30-40 feet into the air and Slammed me back down on my ankle Breaking my tibula and fibula and now post surgery with 2 plates, 12 screws and a whole lot of down time studying the wind and learning to respect it..

hydra is awesome fun and will pull you across ground easilly when you learn to power it properly, I will be shopping for de-power soon as wher i live its gusty. Learn to use the safety system and if you feel overpowered or Scetchy USE IT. live to fly another day .. the guys here on PKF are awesome and offer sound advice.

erratic winds - 16-4-2011 at 07:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sconley
I see, so when I tether myself down to the ground I should use the shortest rope possible? ;)


Yes, get a kite-stake and put it thru your bollocks to pin them to the terra firma! :roll: Kidding!

Heh, we're not trying to scare you away, just want you to be walking after every kite flight!

sconley - 17-4-2011 at 10:29 PM

...I was just kidding (mostly, as the only idea worse then tethering yourself to the ground is tethering yourself to the ground with a 40' tether)... I am quite surprised at how fast that guy went skyward... And I appreciate the advice as I would rather find the upper envelope of kiting in a kite forum then by trial and error... I'm also surprised a 3.5m kite got you airborne, DHKITE... I am selfishly hoping that you are 110 lbs or were in 40 mph gusts? Either way, it's good to hear you are alright now and still kiting... I'm fine being dragged a bit and would actually enjoy feeling a LITTLE light on my feet, but the only thing I feel comfortable actually leaving the ground with is a fixed wing aircraft... To be honest, I'm not all that fond of helicopters... Thanks again everybody, this is a really helpful forum...

So a question for you guys... On a 4 string kite with handles, how do you quickly apply the brakes and how quickly does the kite lose its lift? How does the brakes work (does it stall out the wing?). Since the average persons reaction time is about .44 seconds... Well, the guy in that video was already 10 feet off the ground in about that time? Seems to me its like having a laser detector; by the time you are aware of a problem and take a stab at the brakes you are already knee-deep in trouble?

Kamikuza - 17-4-2011 at 11:50 PM

Welcome!

Tethering seems like a better idea than it actually is :(
Re. the brakes - you can't :D a little brakes will grab wind more and provide more power. If you dump power then you lose the kite but it should recover easy enough eg. it'll stay in the air.

Dude in the air had no chance - perhaps, if he had a harness and strop he may have held on. Braking hard, he would have collapsed the kite etc etc - there's nothing he could have done that would have saved his ass except a miracle.

If you WANT to jump, get a depower kite and get out on the water!!!

WIllardTheGrey - 18-4-2011 at 12:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sconley

So a question for you guys... On a 4 string kite with handles, how do you quickly apply the brakes and how quickly does the kite lose its lift? How does the brakes work (does it stall out the wing?). Since the average persons reaction time is about .44 seconds... Well, the guy in that video was already 10 feet off the ground in about that time? Seems to me its like having a laser detector; by the time you are aware of a problem and take a stab at the brakes you are already knee-deep in trouble?


I think that's one of the best questions I have seen posted by new flyer.

How breaks work:
I think it is like stalling a wing but have no expearnce with wings to be sure.

Notice the trailing edge folding, that's the breaks being applied.


Reaction time:
My answer, use a light grip so if your hit by a gust that is way to much it just pulls the handles out of your hands.

See the last few seconds of this video for what happens with "Kite Killers" on. Also a good demo of scuding to absorb excess power.


Or 3:25 without Kite killers. A good option if you have plenty of room down wind.


Here is a detailed look at kite killers.

sconley - 18-4-2011 at 10:37 AM

Thanks WillardTheGrey, those are stellar videos and very helpful in understanding how it works, and what to expect... Thanks again... :thumbup:

Bladerunner - 18-4-2011 at 04:36 PM

Brakes can be used 3 ways.

Simply reverse launching after a nose down crash. Apply both brakes lightly + evenly and the kite will back up into the sky. Let one side go to turn the kite and fly off.

To turn the kite or add turning speed to your push pull method. You na just add brake like you see in the video. to turn.

To slow or back the kite down. Seed equals lift. If you slow the kite by adding even brake it won't pull as hard. Add more brake the kite will stop and back down.

When the kite ( and you ) is in motion. Applying a little brake changes the kites angle to apperant wind + where the kite sits in the window adding to lift / pull.


You can get lifted by any kite in the right ( or wrong ) situation. It is common to move to larger than a 5m canopy in order to get enough glide ratio to come down soft.

Typically we need 3 kites Low + high wind and our go to kite. Your 3m ish kite will become your high wind kite as your skills develop.

Kite killers are your 1st line of defence. Letting go is as simple and quick as it gets! Still you are right that it all happens fast.

I have only been lofted by larger kites . In that case you can hopefully trust the kite, stay calm and ride it out.

DHKITE - 18-4-2011 at 05:26 PM

I weigh 170ish and was jumping at the time in 30 KMH winds
The updraft/gust that hit me was recorded as we sometimes have quick freak storms here.

72Kmh was the gust. the hydras top limit is 35 KMH says HQ.

I have flown in some powerfull winds since, flew in 25 KMH wind, had fun, I just dont leave the kite at zeinith when its really windy out.. and my leg go reaction is faster.
had I had the kite more horizontally at the windows edge I may have been supermanned, but not lotfted.

gtbensley - 18-4-2011 at 07:47 PM

I started off on a 4m scout and am very happy with that choice. I started going out in the light light wind to get a feel for it and slowly started working my way up. I only way 134 and have not really had any issues with the kite trying to kill me, although I have had some pretty interesting runs kiteskiing with it and having a gust of 30+ and just having to hold on and ride it out.

I think if you start it super light wind and slowly build up to more and more wind you would be fine with something like that.

sconley - 18-4-2011 at 09:47 PM

Thanks everyone... I ended up pulling the trigger on the Beamer IV package from Ripsessions that Bladerunner recommended... Its a 3m and a 5m... This way I can learn on the 3m and slowly move into the 5m after awhile and I should be good to go for some time... When the kites get here I'm sure I'll be bothering you all with stupid posts asking how to rig them and why I can't get them to fly... It's all fun though... Its hard to believe I signed up with the forum on the 15th not knowing a damn thing about kiting, and by the 18th I bought two kites? I still don't know much, but I know a little bit now... Thanks for all the help...

j0fer - 24-4-2011 at 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DHkite
Nope, DONT TETHER YOURSELF TO THE GROUND..

you are asking for injury, What this does is allows tension to build in the line and when lines are tense something has to give, Likely your ground tether will break or it will pull free from the ground and when it does, ou're going up up up and coming down hard.


Ah HA!!
Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but you gave the answer that gave me the Eureka moment, DHKite. I had been wondering "Surely they are talking about not tethering yourself with a long line with the intent to have themselves lifted...because if you used like a 12" tether...just to be safe..."?

Now I see, said the blind man. You are not making yourself safer. You are allowing a buildup of potential energy that puts the equipment and yourself into a much more dangerous state. You are allowing yourself to 'learn' in a manner that is unrealistic, as you've created a situation in which you have increased your 'strength' and ability to hold the kite back way beyond what is your actual maximum.

There's only a certain amount of pull a kite could provide before starting to lift or drag my 215 lb heiny around. But tethered...given that I have the capability of holding on...that number increases greatly depending on how strong you can hold on. So you're sitting there with tension on the tether...with a load on the kite lines beyond what they were intended for. What if a kite line snapped...whipping back into a face? A particularly strong unexpected gust...dislocated shoulder? Maybe that gust would have just pulled you over onto your knees before you dropped to kite killers if you had not been tied down.

Hmmm.

Bambooben - 2-5-2011 at 01:37 PM

Sorry, just getting back to the forum. Crazy busy with it being warm weather at work.
On the teathering, yeah, wish I had read more on this forum before trying it on such a windy day. I was using about 1.5 foot tether, just enough to go from my belt to the ground. I had seen a video with a guy using a long one, and while it didn't end as badly as the guy in the video above, I knew I didn't want that to happen.

And I knew that wasn't a real caribiner. I rock climb, and just happened that that was the only clip I had that day. Anyone from the Northern VA/ Washington DC area might recoginize the logo on the bent caribiner above. I used to work at Hemlock Overlook on the ropes course.

Anyway, glad to see sconley got a kite. Post back man and let us know how you are liking it so far.

sconley - 5-5-2011 at 10:40 AM

Hey Bambooben... I'm digging it, I went out and flew for two hours yesterday for the first time....

My gf and I used the 3m in 7-12mph winds... The first attempt it circled into the ground (I was holding one handle upside down, lol) but after I corrected my stupidity it went straight up on the 2nd attempt and I was able to fly it for several minutes with no issues at all...

The steering is very intuitive and I was able to use the brakes for tight turns... I really dig it and judging by how the 3m was able to pull in relatively light winds, I can only imagine what the 5m will be like. My gf was dragged 20 feet, but she is only 115lbs... She really liked it too...

The kite killers were completely functional, but I didn't figure out how to hook them up per the manual... On the kite killers there are plastic boots with strings that slide into and out of it... The kite handles each have a line that are just loops extending off the bottom and these attach to the plastic boots somehow (I think), but I could not get them through the plastic hole of the plastic boots... So what I did, was I just made a Larks head knot out of the loops on the bottom of the kite handles and tied it to the kite killer stop knot, it worked great and I wasn't worried about the function of it as setup but I'm just curious what I'm missing regarding the plastic boots?

All the knots on the kite are simple overhand knots, has anybody used figure 8 stop knots in lieu of the overhand knots? Should I re-tie the stop knots with figure 8 knots?

Also, when I was trying to hold the kite steady, directly above me, sometimes the kite would overfly the top of the zenith and go upwind from me, at which time, it would lose tension and lift and float towards the ground (I could usually recover it before it hit the ground) but while I figured out how to control the kite right and left, figure 8's etc, quit easily, I never figured out a way to keep the kite directly above me for long periods of time without it flying foo far upwind... I ended up having to turn it crosswind (to the left or to the right) and then bringing it back to center again but it still kept creeping upwind and I would eventually have to turn it to keep it flying... It's sort of hard to explain I guess so no worries if this makes absolutely no sense...

Bottom line though, I had a blast and got a great workout too (a little sore today) and it was a hell of a lot more fun than running on a treadmill (half the reason I decided to try kiting is to get some exercise without realizing it)... Thanks again for everybody's thoughts along the way... I basically went from not even knowing that power kites existed to owning and flying one in just over 2 weeks, and it was all from information and pointers gained from joining this forum and then posting this thread...

labrat - 5-5-2011 at 01:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sconley
The kite killers were completely functional, but I didn't figure out how to hook them up per the manual... On the kite killers there are plastic boots with strings that slide into and out of it... The kite handles each have a line that are just loops extending off the bottom and these attach to the plastic boots somehow (I think), but I could not get them through the plastic hole of the plastic boots... So what I did, was I just made a Larks head knot out of the loops on the bottom of the kite handles and tied it to the kite killer stop knot, it worked great and I wasn't worried about the function of it as setup but I'm just curious what I'm missing regarding the plastic boots?

All the knots on the kite are simple overhand knots, has anybody used figure 8 stop knots in lieu of the overhand knots? Should I re-tie the stop knots with figure 8 knots?


If this is in reference to a HQ 4 line kite, a discussion on the kite killer set-up can be found here.
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=17329&p...
Not sure if that was what you were saying, just a shot at it.

As described, I did change the knots to a figure 8. I know of no reason this needs to be done, I just like it better. Make sure any changes are kept consistent on all 4 lines.

sconley - 5-5-2011 at 05:38 PM

Yes, it is a Beamer IV 3m and 5m 4 line and that is the setup... I have loops on the bottom of my handles off of the back (opposite of where the brake line from the kite attaches)... A post in that other thread talked about setting them up the way I ended up setting them up... They also copied a picture of the instructions for the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s in that thread and commented on how confusing they are as well... I will probably change a few of the knots to figure 8's as they seem to not back out as easily...

labrat - 5-5-2011 at 07:37 PM

I cannot say it's wrong to deviate from the manufacturers design. Especially with the objections to these kite killers.

But I have not had a problem and I have a concern whether the length of the handles when connecting to the stake loops is enough distance to flag the kite properly when KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s (as I understand it) connect at the end of the leader lines. This gives more distance to lay the kite out flat.

It's a safety system. Test thoroughly.

sconley - 5-5-2011 at 10:43 PM

I had replied and this thread went to a 2nd page (where I think my last reply is) but every time I click on "page 2" it directs me back to page 1? At any rate, I apologize if I have missed anyone's reply on page two, but I can't see it!...

acampbell - 6-5-2011 at 05:24 AM

Here are some set-up tips that might help with your kite killers. Attaching them directly to the bottoms of the handles will work, but will limit their scope and effectiveness will be diminished. Look at the pictures and diagrams below the text in the link.

As far as trouble seeing posts on page 2 of PKF, try this. Go to User Control Panel, then Edit Profile, then options and set posts per page to something high like 3,000. That way there is no page 2 to worry about. U2U sent in case you can't see this.

sconley - 9-5-2011 at 10:42 AM

Thanks for the u2u, I was able to reset it and don't have multiple pages to worry about, thanks... And thanks for the set-up tips, I will check it out now... Thanks again...