Power Kite Forum

a question for the Neo2 flyers

spork - 3-5-2011 at 02:28 AM

Basically I have a concern with the 5th line. the TDS one that is meant to fully depower the kite from the safety leash.

long story short, it doesnt fully depower
the 5th line is pulled all the way to the stopper, but as the kite folds in half, it gets to a point where the outside lines pull tight, stopping it from completely folding flat. instead leaving it with a bi-concave shape which still catches air.

this shape makes the kite bob around like a butterfly or jellyfish and it doesnt really want to land.
the higher the winds, the longer it takes to land (over a minute in stronger winds).
still gives a decent pull but nothing dangerous.

just wondering if anyone else has this problem. im thinking the 5th line needs more line on the bar side (or less on the kite side) to allow it to pull further and fold the kite further.

and this is a 14m if anyone was wondering
thanks, i look forward to hearing what other neo2 flyers have experienced with the 5th line.

acampbell - 3-5-2011 at 04:20 AM

Yes I find that curious. I modded my Neo 1 for 5th line safety and I had to play with it a lot, starting with the measurements from the Neo 2 5th line bridle and tweaking from there. My modded Neo 1 completely Tacos, much more so than the Neo 2. As you said, the Neo 2 is much safer does not pull dangerously on safety, but it is a bit annoying the way it maintains that curious shape. I do not know why they left it like that.

I actually prefer the modded Neo 1. With the 5th line being removable, I can get 2 more kts on the lower end, and in those light winds, the original safety is functional and acceptable. The Neo 1 will fly in 6-8 kts (for buggy) without 5th line, where the Neo 2 will need 8-10 with the added weight and drag.

spork - 3-5-2011 at 05:14 AM

only reason i can think why it "jellyfishes" instead of "tacoing" is maybe to make releanching easier
is your neo1 hard to relaunch after it tacos?

i might play around shortening the kite end of the 5th line (5th line itself actually hangs quite low, so maybe it needs shortening?)

acampbell - 3-5-2011 at 05:31 AM

Maybe that's it. Not sure I've had to relaunch it yet but I think it would do OK. I'll make a note to try it.

spork - 3-5-2011 at 06:00 AM

i've done practice safety leash pulls and relaunches and...
if the jellyfish lands nicely and directly downwind, its fairly easy to relaunch
if he lands nicely but not in the centre, the side on wind can occassionally flip or fold him
if he lands upside down, same as above 2 scenarios, but with reverse relaunching
if he lands side on, things can get messy, but just depends how the wind blows and where bridles get hooked

in my experience, due to the uncontrollable nature of the jellyfish, all the above scenarios happen about equally, but probably the second one happens a bit more often

im curious to know how the taco would land now.

acampbell - 3-5-2011 at 02:56 PM

Funny you use the term "jellyfish". I have always described the Neo taking off under-inflated as a "drunken jellyfiesh" lurching about the sky until it fully inflates.

About the Neo rolling over on the ground, several Flysurfer fliers have noted that the bridles don't get have as buggared up as a FS can. You can shoulder roll a Neo 360 on the ground (like if you drop it in low wind) and relaunch easily with no tangles.

Along with my Phantoms, my favorite de-power buggy kite. Park it off your shoulder, crack a water bottle or beer, check e-mail, make a call, work the camera, whatever, with just an occasional poke at the bar with a fingertip.

mgatc - 3-5-2011 at 07:30 PM

Angus,

What is the length of the 14m? It seems that in order for the kite to fold completely "in half" on the 5th line safety, the 5th line may have to be prohibitively long. Perhaps this is simply a compromise between slightly less safety for a reasonable 5th line length?

m

highazakite - 3-5-2011 at 08:26 PM

my 11 folds in half at the center spins some times and hits the deck. you do have to make sure the ton of safety line is not tangled prior to flying.... so far i havnt had any issues while flying and using the safety but i will say it toke more than a few times a some choice swear words learning how to pack it away so it unravels with out creating a mess to fix.. so recheck over your safety bridle and see if anything is tangled ?
i have however felt the pull of the kite as it comes down but like you mentioned i wouldn't call it power just some drag
i think they went a lil over board on the safety .. almost seems like an entire second bridle.

its possible your issue is for the 14 only? could it be the safety line that joins the tips is 2 short on the 14? i think that could cause the tips to curl out from the ends of the "taco".

stetson05 - 3-5-2011 at 11:11 PM

one of the problems with the flysurfer version according to powerzone is that is it rarely under tension so has a tendancy to shrink once it has gotten wet. The other lines all get regular tension. He recommended staking and stretching the 5th line.

The recommendation was more because of a problem with the contour of the kite when trimmed out and depowered but maybe it has some bearing here too. Just a thought, its worth everything you paid for it.

spork - 3-5-2011 at 11:35 PM

Angus: I used to call it a butterfly, but jellyfish sounds better

mgatc: the 14m is 7.2m wide, so the 5th line would need to pull up 3.6m plus any slack. i dont think there is enough distance before the stopper to allow this.

highazakite: i didnt think it was the anti-crossover line, because of the ring that lets it slide. i looked when it was in the air and it didnt seem to be the problem, but im going to pull the safety, stake it, then walk up to the kite and have a look to make sure.

ill post the results later (if anyone is interested)

mikellli - 16-5-2011 at 09:50 AM

Today I got my Neo2 8m. I had the problem. :( When I move the bar away from me, the kite increases the power, but when I move the bar to me, kite loses power and goes down (reverse depower). If anyone knows why this is happening??? I am a beginner with depower kites, I used a little more than a year HQ Scout2 5m(I love it) :D . One more question, why some Neo2 8m have four intake valves, and some only 2??? By the way, I think the manual that comes with the kite very poor and unclear. Sorry for bad English. Best regards....

acampbell - 16-5-2011 at 10:05 AM

My gusess is that you are flying static and in light wind. What is happening is that when you pull the bar in, you are stalling the kite, so it looses power. You let the bar out, which should be de-power, but the kite recovers from the stall, speeds up and generates some pull. So that is why it behaves "backwards".

Once you get in to motion and develop apparent wind on your board or buggy, everything will be right with the world and the kite will behave as advertized, assuming it is trimmed right.

This is a common scenario that confuses a lot of people at first.

acampbell - 16-5-2011 at 10:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mgatc
Angus,

What is the length of the 14m? It seems that in order for the kite to fold completely "in half" on the 5th line safety, the 5th line may have to be prohibitively long. Perhaps this is simply a compromise between slightly less safety for a reasonable 5th line length?

m


Mel I missed this; sorry. will try to find out. Got the measurements somewhere...

spork - 16-5-2011 at 05:58 PM

well i did that thing i mentioned above.
(flag out on 5th line, stake, walk and check out the lines)

and from that, its clear the anitcrossover line is not the problem
its the amount of slack on the 5th line
by the time the 5th line has pulled tight to depower the kite, the red and blue brake lines are almost tight too.
the result: the brake lines are pulled tight before the kite can completely depower, leaving it with a bi-concave shape.

im confident that reducing some slack on the 5th line will fix this
(less line to pull on before depowering)

now how to reduce the length of the 5th line without messing it up? can anyone offer any advice?
thanks

chris - 16-5-2011 at 06:25 PM

What Angus said is all true.

Try adjusting the kites angle of attack so it will not back stall when you have the bar pulled back all the way. Send the kite to zenith and pull back on the bar. If the kite back stalls, shorten the top (center) line by pulling in the trim line at the cam cleat.

Quote:
Originally posted by mikellli
Today I got my Neo2 8m. I had the problem. :( When I move the bar away from me, the kite increases the power, but when I move the bar to me, kite loses power and goes down (reverse depower). If anyone knows why this is happening???

spork - 16-5-2011 at 07:29 PM

unrelated to my original question, (but this thread can be a general Neo2 discussion anyway)
another question:

how do i pull off good jumps on a 14m?
unlike a smaller kite, i cannot hang onto the initial pull before the "pop"
instead i get dragged/skidded forwards a large distance (sometimes with a little lift) but mostly just along the ground.
is there a trick to hanging on so all the pull can go into a vertical jump, not a forward jump/drag? or am i just not heavy enough?

thanks

mikellli - 17-5-2011 at 09:21 AM

Thank you all for your replies. It's raining outside, so I can not go out, to try your advice. As soon as the rain stops and wind starts to blow, you will hear from me. Best regards. (Sorry for bad English, I use Google translator...)

mikellli - 18-5-2011 at 06:09 AM

You were right for static flying and low wind. Today was very good. I wait a little longer to be warmer outside, so I'll try kiteboarding. Do you know why my Neo has only two air holes, and on the pictures I see, there are four? Thanx.

spork - 19-5-2011 at 12:10 AM

thats quite odd that your 8m (blue) only has two holes.
the 6m (red) has two holes, but thats because its smaller

shouldnt be a problem, will just take a little bit longer to inflate.

the neo1 14m used to have 6 holes, but the neo2 14m has only 4 holes (maybe less is better?)

mikellli - 21-5-2011 at 12:09 PM

It seems to me, that newer Neo2 8m(blue) have two openings. Only the images of recent date with Neo2 8 has two openings. I was worried that it may be factory error. I do not know how quickly inflates with four holes, but I'm quite happy with speed on mi kite.

spork - 22-5-2011 at 05:34 AM

well mines a 14, so we cant properly compare inflation times, but im happy with mine too.
i hold it by the vents and jiggle it around for less than a minute, until it has enough air to sit nicely.
then i go back to the bar, pull back, and it launches. takes less than 30 seconds in the air to fully inflate.

mikellli - 29-5-2011 at 02:47 PM

Quote:

What Angus said is all true. Try adjusting the kites angle of attack so it will not back stall when you have the bar pulled back all the way. Send the kite to zenith and pull back on the bar. If the kite back stalls, shorten the top (center) line by pulling in the trim line at the cam cleat.

Thanks Chris for the advice, I did that and now works as expected. Today was a good wind. But I still had a disagreement with a user manual. The manual states that the maximum power obtained when the bar moves towards me and when Trim-Strap is release. But I get the most power when I pull the Trim-Strap. Even I think that it has much more influence on De-Power, then puling the bar. Instructions that are included with the dragon is bad and does not explains for 90 percent of thing. such as the use clamcleat which is extremely important. One more thing. I damaged the foam on the bar with Safety-Release when I turned the kite. Is this normal, or my bar is not well suited. Unfortunately there is no school for power kiting anywhere near. So I am learning de-power kite all by me self. Best regards...

chris - 29-5-2011 at 09:00 PM

Luckily, we have resources like the Power Kite Forum to share information. We don't need no stinkin' manuals ;)

The trick is to adjust the trim-strap for your given wind conditions. If the wind is lighter, the kite will generate more speed with trim-strap pulled in.
Speed will generate power.

Mikellli, where do you live?

Quote:
Originally posted by mikellli
Quote:

...But I still had a disagreement with a user manual. The manual states that the maximum power obtained when the bar moves towards me and when Trim-Strap is release. But I get the most power when I pull the Trim-Strap. Even I think that it has much more influence on De-Power, then puling the bar. Instructions that are included with the dragon is bad and does not explains for 90 percent of thing. such as the use clamcleat which is extremely important. One more thing. I damaged the foam on the bar with Safety-Release when I turned the kite. Is this normal, or my bar is not well suited. Unfortunately there is no school for power kiting anywhere near. So I am learning de-power kite all by me self. Best regards...

mikellli - 30-5-2011 at 12:24 PM

Thank you Chris for your reply. That explains all. That's exactly what happened to me yesterday. Yesterday was great. I even managed to jump once. It was not much high, about a meter and a half. Was a bit scary and extremely well.:D My Scout 2 5m was not good for jumping. I'm from Melenci - Serbia. And you Chris?

chris - 30-5-2011 at 04:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mikellli
Thank you Chris for your reply. That explains all. That's exactly what happened to me yesterday. Yesterday was great. I even managed to jump once.


My pleasure to be of assistance. It seems you are well on your way!

Quote:
Originally posted by mikellli
I'm from Melenci - Serbia. And you Chris?


I live near Kitty Hawk, North Carolina USA.

The reason I ask was to determine how easy it would be to replace your damaged kite bar. I would suggest you send an email to Invento-HQ in Germany: service@invento-hq.com.

~ Good winds ~

mikellli - 1-6-2011 at 12:00 PM

Thank you Chris because you wish to help me. I am very grateful. I do not want to bother people from HQ Powerkites. After all, I have damaged the foam on the bar, and buying new one do not fit into my budget (My wife would kill me) . It is fully functional but aesthetically much ugly. The damaged was create for a short period of time. I fear that this will become worse during the use. I believe that I something not doing well.


chris - 1-6-2011 at 02:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mikellli
I do not want to bother people from HQ Powerkites. After all, I have damaged the foam on the bar, and buying new one do not fit into my budget (My wife would kill me) . It is fully functional but aesthetically much ugly. The damaged was create for a short period of time. I fear that this will become worse during the use. I believe that I something not doing well.


My thinking is that Invento-HQ would replace the bar for free. Send them an email. Tell them Chris from HQ USA told you so.

Cheers,

Chris