Power Kite Forum

the days of struggle

shaggs2riches - 14-5-2011 at 08:50 PM

Went to the lake today. Winds were SE 28km/h with lulls. This is a side onshore wind so it should be good for learning. Pulled out my 12m speed 2, so setup and launch went off without a hitch;soon, I was making my way into the water. It would seem that I need to work on kite skills a fair bit. I had a struggle to keep the kite from dancing around while I was putting on my board (maybe I was a bit spoiled from my arcs autozenith). Once I got my board on I ended up floating almost backwards. No matter what I tried I couldn't get turned around, so I had to take the board off and start again. Once I finally got things setup correctly, the wind had dropped and I had no power to get up. Basically I fought like this for a long time only drifting downwind to the other end of the beach. I did get up and riding a couple times, one of them I shot out of the water, but couldn't edge crosswind before I rode right into the beach falling down spraining my wrist. I had the kite invert twice, and the lulls were bad enough that the kite fell out of the sky on occasion. Ended up giving up after three hours of trying. Went home happy that I was at least able to be out there giving it an honest try. Seriously though lessons are really starting to sound like a good idea.

Shaggs

macboy - 14-5-2011 at 08:55 PM

It's the wind that we could do so much better without. The winds on Sunset had me riding the ATB like I could NEVER ride here, the winds in PEI and in the Keys was so clean and constant that you could put the kite and forget it and concentrate on the board skills.

Those that say we inland kiters are better kiters because of it can have it! I want clean winds!

shaggs2riches - 14-5-2011 at 09:06 PM

yeah I know I was so stoked and sure that with the speed 2 I'd be up and riding today. My kiting buddy was blaming the kite, and wanted me to try his naish cult. I don't think it would have made a difference. I told him I'd try it next time just to see if he's right or not.

Kamikuza - 14-5-2011 at 09:35 PM

Yikes careful dude - falling into the beach is how I broke my wrist :D


When you water start ...
Before you bother with the board, wiggle the kite around a bit to get an idea of how much it'll pull from the zenith. I find with the FSers you should be able to dive them down right from 12, and the LEIs from the opposite side of the window - how far depends on the wind.

From 0:22 is how I put my board on - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbT6DpZu_Z4

Knees into your chest, pull the board as close to you as you can.

Think "Sit up then stand up". Imagine if you were standing and had to lie down without using your hands - you wouldn't just flop over backwards with your legs straight - you'd bend your knees and put your ass on your heels then lie back. Do the opposite order when you water start.

Dive the kite.

Shoot your lead foot out and kung-fu kick at the kite or slightly upwind of where it'll be in the dive! By pointing your foot at the kite, you keep your weight low and back but flatten out the board and get on the plane ASAP.
There's a bunch of water starts in here ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV3Ga0I238I ... note the kung-fu foot :) when you're more over-powered, make it more pronounced.

Then you should be pulled over the board into a sitting position, then stand up and THEN edge against the kite. It all happens pretty quick ... you can practice on the landboard too :)



Another vid - yes it's strapless but the same points apply ... knees to the chest, shoot the foot, sit up stand up ... then edge.
http://www.iksurfmag.com/issue22/?page=91
Read and absorb this on stance.
http://www.iksurfmag.com/issue_5_sep_oct_2007/issue_5.html#4...

Kamikuza - 14-5-2011 at 09:39 PM

Why not, try it - just be warned, they're tough to relaunch! Should have been ample wind for the speed - water starts are tough to get right ... up until the time they just click and you can do no wrong ;)

I think, coming from the landboard like I did, you might be trying to go either too far downwind at first with the kite and loosing load on the kite or edging too hard initially and killing the kite. The balance, initially, is a little more subtle ... IMHO! :o

Kamikuza - 14-5-2011 at 09:47 PM

Actually, don't so much 'stand up' as let it pull you up ... notice at the start of this video, how I pop up then wobble on the board? I went too far downwind (board pointed behind the kite) and I'm trying to stand on the board rather than lean against the kite with my leveraging against the board ... I took too long to get onto the heel edge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3kIWhMStZg

BeamerBob - 14-5-2011 at 09:48 PM

the board behind you scenario is common when teaching folks how to wakeboard behind the boat. After a few sessions (or attempts if they ignored my advice to ride skis first) the in the water board handling starts to just flow if you have any coordination. A trick that tridude taught me was to counter steer the kite to align your body in the water. So swing the kite from 2 to 10 to rotate your body counterclockwise, which gets your board pointing downwind, then dive the kite low and across the window to your right. After it lifts you out of the water following Kami's good advice, slowly edge your board away from downwind and you're off! Reverse the lefts and rights if you want to come up and run to your left. My instructions were for coming up right foot forward.

AD72 - 15-5-2011 at 12:22 AM

Like kami said move the kite back and forth from 1 to 11 or 2 to 10 to get a feel for the wind when you are on your back in the water with the board on your feet. The speed thrives on apparent wind so you want to start with a momentum that is across the window.. For a smaller faster kite it is easier to move up and down in the window. Also don't focus too much about getting up on top of the board. I did that and ended up going over the board or sinking. Get the board moving and get a balance to how much weight you can put on it and what you are taking in the harness.
Take a lesson if you can and get the progression volume 1 and 2 DVD. Repetition,

macboy - 15-5-2011 at 12:27 AM

I had the same word of advice from my PEI lesson - swing the kite the opposite direction a bit which points the board down wind at just about the perfect angle. Knees to your chest so you roll up onto the board, then stand, extending your front leg straight and balancing most of your weight on the back foot. I was surprised how forgiving the whole deal is once you're up on plane. You have a good amount of time to wrench the kite to the right place even if you're teetering on losing the plane.

For me the catch was programming my instinct for the upswing of the kite. As soon as I feel I'm coming up and onto the water I needed to start the upswing. Many many times I'd get up and it was too late - the kite was either down too far or too far out to the edge of the window to get back up and down with enough power to keep me going.

Latest tidbit from the Keys instructor was arms OUT. She had me make enough power from the dive to pull me up without pulling in the bar for the extra help. Forcing my arms to stay out allowed the kite to keep flying - not get choked out.

I really don't know much yet. It's still coming but Kami is right - once it clicks it clicks.

manitoulinkiter1 - 15-5-2011 at 05:21 AM

Hey Man

Another thing to consider is how big were the lulls in the wind?
If they are low enough so you don't have enough power to get up you will get pulled down wind and turned around waiting for the wind to pick up.
That was one of my major hang ups learning. I would go out in lower winds that didn't have enough power during the lulls. It can be quite frustrating, but stick with it.
Oh and the running into the beach thing, I was so happy to be up I figured I could turn in just a sec then I was rolling and skidding in the sand.
Keep trying you will get it.

John

shaggs2riches - 15-5-2011 at 11:10 AM

Thanks for the support here guys...all solid info. I think that it will click with continued practice. Kami I found I would get up and like you pointed out I was trying to stand on the board, causing it to sink. I would fight to get power, but the kite was far at the edge by this point, that it was hopeless. I did out run the kite when I shot out of the water, it caught back up and surged me forward over the board. The lulls were irritating, one minute it was really pushing, then it would drop causing the kite to surge past zenith and collapse. I'm not giving up though. I will give my friends kite a try, he figures it will be more friendly to me till I get things to click.

shaggs2riches - 15-5-2011 at 01:47 PM

Just wondering though...is the speed2 a real beginner friendly kite on the water. I found it awesome on land, but I had some skills before using it. Would a lower AR kite prove more reliable in the early stages????

Txshooter38 - 15-5-2011 at 03:03 PM

Shaggs, I had my first water ride with my speed 3 19m this weekend. While standing up was easy (lots of wakeboarding) I also struggled with getting speed up, getting straight in the water, and keeping the kite steady.

I am going to to post another thread shortly with the whole experience. In the meantime feel encouraged that there are still others trying to get this all figured out. It sure is fun trying though....I had 2hrs of work for 30 seconds of fun but it was all worth it.

tridude - 15-5-2011 at 03:31 PM

ok Shaggs put this in the memory bank.............let the kite take you downwind.......once youre up and feel the speed lean back and set the edge...............careful not to choke the kite out with the bar................1/3 to 1/2 way in on the bar is all youll need

first instinct is to go upwind right off the get go which will slow your progress..................let the kite do the initial work..............youll be planing and upwind in no time.......dont be afraid of the walk of shame..........everyone does it!!

AD72 - 15-5-2011 at 03:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shaggs2riches
Just wondering though...is the speed2 a real beginner friendly kite on the water. I found it awesome on land, but I had some skills before using it. Would a lower AR kite prove more reliable in the early stages????


Definitely a lower AR would be more forgiving. The speed wants you up and planing right away. It is probably easier to stall. You may be trying to get up on to the board by pulling in on the bar, oversheeting and killing the kite power. Where did you have the depower strap set? Try having the yellow depower strap pulled so that you have less chance to oversheet. It may seem counterintuitive when the wind is low but give it a try. It does sound like you had difficult wind conditions to learn in.

Kamikuza - 15-5-2011 at 06:27 PM

Meh ... if there's enough wind to pop up and go rocketing downwind, you should be able to ride :D
More ability means you can milk the kite & board more though in the sketchy bits ...

The Speed is a fine kite! The 17 and the 19 I had are NOT kites to be worked though unless you're really ready to muscle it around ... my advice is to dive it then park it, letting it fly by sheeting out some or trimming it ... or slowly sine it up and down.
From the initial dive, you should be out of the water about 1:30 - 2 then aim to park the kite ASAP and let it build apparent wind.

With the Cult (yeuch!) you'll dive it then whip it back up as it heads to the bottom of the window and do that till you can park it. If the wind is light, you might find that working it back to 12 might be helpful, rather than just up and down ...

Too much info! :lol: the important thing to remember is ... load the kite. The balance between slack lines and a stalled kite is a little finer than on a landboard (cos you sink on the water) but keep tension on the lines by board angle or body lean angle and you'll get there in the end ;)

shaggs2riches - 15-5-2011 at 06:33 PM

LOL you guys just described everything I was doing wrong. I re-watched the progressions beginner dvd. Almost painful when the truth sets in. I was really really chocking the kite off the start. When I would dive the kite, the first thing I would do is yank in on the bar, trying to pull myself up, not letting the kite do the work. I had my trim pulled almost all the way in, but with bar in I wasn't allowing the kite to move properly. Its a bad habit that I better get rid of fast. Tridude, my reluctance to walk back up is what caused me to drive into the beach. Where I drifted the wind was blowing straight onshore, and I was only walking about 30 meters into the water before trying to waterstart. I'm gonna drill all this into my head till its all I think about...next time I'm gonna get it right if its the last thing I do.:evil:

Kamikuza - 15-5-2011 at 06:44 PM

Learn to fly the kite with one hand too - notice that, with the kite parked at 45 degrees to the ground and at the edge of the window, that if you sheet in the kite tends to climb and conversely, drops if you sheet out. More noticable with LEIs too ...

It's tough to keep all the information in your head and THEN recall it at the right time later. There's no replacement for doing it over and over :D well except having an instructor telling you at the time ... but most of them just send you off and give you pointers when you get back - that get promptly forgotten :lol:

And - everyone walks eventually, no matter how good :bigok:

shaggs2riches - 15-5-2011 at 06:56 PM

Yeah I'm hoping that we have a windy summer. The wife and kids are heading to the coast for 6 weeks, so lots of time to sit a the lake and wait for wind. We're gonna rent a sea-doo, to help us train on the boards, and as a backup in case someone runs into trouble in the middle of the lake. This is gonna be just a mild speed bump once everything finally clicks. I did notice that it was a big pain when the kite inverted on me. I could fly the kite and did manage to get it back the right way, but my lines were crossed interfering with the flight a bit. Oh and the kite was a real slug after it sat in the water for more than a minute, had to leave it dry at zenith for a couple minutes.

Kamikuza - 15-5-2011 at 08:29 PM

Yeah you get that with the foils - that's their downside. The upside is that you'll be the first and last riding as the wind builds and dies :) and the relaunches are easy.

I've found if you've lost tension in the lines and the kite is falling out of the sky, grab a rear line at the leader and give it a pull to get at least a wingtip flying again - should avoid the inverts ... which suck. They still happen on bow LEIs though ;)

Dunno if I'd worry about the board skills for now - at this stage, it's mostly getting the kite flying and the board pointed in the right direction. Read that article on stance - it's VITAL!

shaggs2riches - 15-5-2011 at 09:15 PM

It is irritating at this point. Watching me struggle gives my friend more leverage in his argument that I should ditch the foils for LEI. Maybe in a beginner perspective he has a bit of point. I believe though that it probably wouldn't have made a difference which type of kite I was flying, I still would have struggled the same.:crazy:

Kamikuza - 15-5-2011 at 11:06 PM

I'd say so - you use foils on the landboard, yes? The LEI will be twitchier at the bar and not make power the same way, so you'd probably have to adapt to that. Or go out in bigger wind ...!
And I hate Cults anyway so :moon: to your friend :lol:

PHREERIDER - 16-5-2011 at 07:52 AM

drag practice!

get up ride, just ride! up wind will come , don't worry about it .

the walks will get shorter and shorter.