Power Kite Forum

Best kite for a bigger (250lb) newbie who wants to jump?

ablanquart - 23-5-2011 at 02:16 PM

All,


What is the best kite for someone my size (6'2", 250lbs) to get for starting Power kiting? I eventually want to get into jumping (yes, I know - and yes I read the newbie FAQ ;-) ) I have heard mention of the Ozone Riot but not sure if that would be too advanced for me or not. I live in Illinois, so winds are mostly tame but we do have our windy days.

Thanks for the help!

arkay - 23-5-2011 at 05:24 PM

Anything to get started and to learn how to fly the kite. You'll feel lift even if it's not a jump. I would not start out on a kite that will lift you. So the std answer, a 3m kite would be a good start. I have not doubt that you will eventually out grow that and then it's all about your local wind conditions. In tame conditions, 5mph? 10mph? lemme know, you'll need a much bigger kite and that only means much more $$, unfortunately.

Kamikuza - 23-5-2011 at 05:31 PM

Read it again.

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=16989

Injuries from jumping with fixed bridle foils on handles are so common as to be inevitable. If you REALLY have to jump, get out on the water with a big depower kite - you'll go higher, easier and won't hurt yourself.

flyjump - 23-5-2011 at 05:53 PM

What part of IL are you at? I'm from Springfield IL

Bladerunner - 23-5-2011 at 06:19 PM

Look at this.
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=16989

This is a great site for figuring out what kite is right for you. Go to the tutorials.
www.coastalwindsports.com

viperkid181 - 24-5-2011 at 12:22 AM

Ok so I just got my Beamer 5 5m today and let me give you my 2 cents. I am very new but soon to be very active on the forum with my adventures. First off don't get a 5 meter unless you want to fear your kite like me. I did not really have brake functionality with my kite today and it was about 15 mph but it pulls like a truck and I even went into the air a few inches while sitting on the ground... So ya save your self the 50 bucks and go with the 4m. I got a great deal on mine which is why I decided to go with it but I would not recommend it because after about 5 minutes of flying it around cautiously I lost control got tossed about 10 feet and started getting dragged for a second or until the kite killers kicked in. It was a blast though :p oh ya and I'm in Des Plain,il 5'6 165 lb.

Bladerunner - 24-5-2011 at 06:28 AM

YES . You are experiencing exactly what I try and warn people of.

1st day out with a 3m kite leaves YOU feeling like you have started to master the sport.

1st day with a 5m usually ends up with you beat up and more questions than answers. You spent the day protecting yourself instead of learning.

Take that 5m out in real light wind and you will progress faster !

Thanks for backing what I try and tell folks all the time.

That + you must learn to completely control the kite blind before trying to jump with it.

flyjump - 24-5-2011 at 06:36 AM

Bladerunner you are a good guy....always trying to keep people safe. Just like you said, in low winds or with a small kite it is easy to think that you've learned all there is to know. when you start jumping the dynamics of kiting changes. when you're dangeling 12 feet off the ground you sometiimes forget what you need to do with the kite. the redirect needs to be instinct. A little bit of practice time is worth saving your bones. enjoy every step of the way :)

Also, try moving on a board or buggy. It adds and entire new dymaic to flying when you get rolling....then the jumps get real big!

ablanquart - 24-5-2011 at 07:50 AM

Thanks for all the responses. I did read the (multiple) threads in the jumping thread about broken bones, etc., but it seems the experiences tend to vary greatly from person to person. Some people buy a 10m kite as their first kite and love it. Anyway, I've been lurking for a while, and the main causes of injury seem to be

a) inability to control the kite
b) gusts
c) having too small of a kite and jumping - the small kite doesn't have enough lift to sustain your jump and you fall like a rock.

c) is really the reason I'm asking for recommendations, but if I should focus on more control first then I'll go with something smaller. Keep in mind though, if you're 165, I weigh 85lbs more than you, that's quite a big difference! I'm not new to extreme sports, my main sport is brazilian jiu-jitsu so I am no stranger to injuries and broken bones (not that I want to get hurt!) I'm also in the Chicago burbs area (Bolingbrook.) So out of the following kites, which would you recommend? Looking at 4m or 5m kite - Ozone Imp, Ozone Flow, or Flexifoil Blade?

flyjump - 24-5-2011 at 07:55 AM

if you ever head down to the springfield area let me know....i'd like to meet up and ride in some local spots that i really like

bobalooie57 - 24-5-2011 at 08:19 AM

I didn't see what your experience with power kiting is. Have you even flown a 3M quad line power kite in 15+ winds? I weigh 200+/-, and in good wind, can get yanked pretty good by my 3.5M. And I know what to expect, having flown it until it is no longer crispy. Maybe you are underestimating the power of the wind? Don't you get that gusty crap Chicago is famous for? 15 G 25+? The power difference from 15 - 30ish for a 5M+ can be 3-4x, the difference between butt scudding and flying through the air with the greatest of ease! lol We like everyone here to stay healthy and in flight shape, and 250# coming down on an out of place ankle from an unexpected gust, and the results aren't pretty. But if you insist, the Blade is king? :spin: My recommendation: Get a 3M and learn to fly it blind.

ablanquart - 24-5-2011 at 09:12 AM

My experience? Absolutely zero. I am, however, going to go fly one today, perhaps that will help influence my decision :) I'm leaning towards the 4m blade. And yeah, we get the big 'ol Chicago gusts, I don't plan on flying in that until I have a lot of experience.

B-Roc - 24-5-2011 at 09:23 AM

4m blade would be my absolute last choice. If its a 4m then its a III series or earlier which means its very aggressive without much float.

My preference would be for you to start on a low A/R 4m kite so you can understand the dynamics of flyingn without much injury. A low A/R kite would be great for scudding yet it would not try to kill you like a fast, lifty, high A/R kite in gusty winds.

Remember, winds change faster then bones heal and there is nothing worse then being totally intimidated by the kite at the end of your lines because when things go bad, they go bad REAL fast in this sport.

indigo_wolf - 24-5-2011 at 10:20 AM

FWIW: Of the 3 kites you listed in post #3, I would opt for the Flow 4M.

Flows tend to be stable. They're a newer design than the Imps and that's reflected in some of the design (bridle design, cross bracing, layout of the leading edge inlets).

The ability to recover them in mid-air in gusty/cross-wind conditions is confidence inspiring.

There is only the slightest tendency for them to try to invert when you hammer on the brakes and back them down out of the sky. This tendency to try to invert mainly happens when it gets down low enough in the window to encounter ground turbulence and is entirely manageable as long as you know it is going to happen.

Generally the 3M is recommended, but at 250 lbs, the 4M should be doable for you, unless you take it out in silly winds.

There is a lot to be said for a first kite that doesn't leave you feeling skittish early on.

ATB,
Sam

John Holgate - 24-5-2011 at 02:40 PM

I would also recommend the 3 or 4m Flow to learn on. Far too small for anything but small bunny hops off the ground, but they're the best place to start.

Seanny - 24-5-2011 at 03:06 PM

Once again, I've got to recommend the 4.1m Peter Lynn Twister II. Peter Lynn makes an outstanding product. This kite has everything a good kite should have: Durability, affordability, ease of use, reliability, flies out of the box, kook-proof setup, stability, and outstanding customer service. Peter Lynn is a very trusted brand on here, and the Twister II 4.1 is the most fun kite I've ever owned. It's a mid-high aspect kite that can most easily be described as a Flexifoil Blade that's a tad slower with a much more smooth power build up. For a 250 pound guy, this would be perfect. If you're looking for something that's a bit more than a tug and a pull without putting yourself at risk (COUGH BLADE III) then look no farther. This kite is straight forward, no surprises, no funny business. It's tame in light winds and in strong wind is easily capable of lifting me twice my vertical height, so I have a feeling I will never outgrow it. It's versatile, as the kite makes a great board/buggy/snow engine no problem. I use this kite to teach all of my friends and they LOVE it. It's taken quite a beating, but aside from a bit of dust, looks like I unpacked it for the first time just yesterday.

You've seriously got to try one out :)

bigkahuna - 24-5-2011 at 03:23 PM

I used to weigh around 250 (I'm down to about 225-230 now a days) so can relate to your situation. I still think it would be worth starting with an under 5m kite if you plan on using it for static flying. I would recommend, if it's possible, to learn on the water. Maybe even take a kitesurfing lesson if you can. The reason is that water is much more forgiving than terra firma. At our weight a bad landing can spell serious injury pretty easily. Your martial arts background will help, but gravity is still working against us. ;)

Scudley - 24-5-2011 at 09:07 PM

In terms of safety, Prism Micron. ;)

indigo_wolf - 24-5-2011 at 09:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Scudley
In terms of safety, Prism Micron.


You, my good sir, have never been "razored" by a Micron flying a mylar ribbon tail in high winds.

It's always the small ones that will kill you.

Oh... and it has nasty, pointy teeth.


:lol: :lol:

ATB,
Sam

Kamikuza - 24-5-2011 at 11:23 PM

a, b and c are all variables that you actually have little control over. You might think you got your shiatzu wired tight when you send the kite, but who can tell if b is going mess up a regardless of c? Or if in a panic you over-do a and the kite collapses, leaving you with a big mess in the sky that is worse than c?

Get a small kite. Fly the ripstop off it. Get a big depower with a harness and learn to fly that THEN try jumping ... a will be better, b will just be fun and c will be mute. Minimum chance of injury.

Unless, of course, you're in a hurry. To the ER. :Ange09:

B-Roc - 25-5-2011 at 08:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by indigo_wolf

Oh... and it has nasty, pointy teeth.

Sam


Hey Sam, that sure looks like one killer bunny


ablanquart - 25-5-2011 at 11:44 AM

All,

Thanks again for all the responses. After flying my friend's 3m kite yesterday in mild Chicago wind (13-16Mph) I definitely understand why you recommend the smaller kites. It took me a couple of hours to get the hang of it (and a couple of times pulling a 60-70lb kite filled with water out of Lake Michigan) but it really barely pulled me at all. However, in higher winds I could see how it could easily do so. I believe I will go with either a 4m flow or or a 4.9m blade, will keep you updated. lol at the Month Python references!

:)

Seanny - 25-5-2011 at 02:46 PM

That sounds good to me, but I would never ever recommend a Blade as a beginner's first kite, regardless of weight... especially a 4.9... They're too aggressive, man... take a look on YouTube at how many idiots (people?) are flying Blades in their crash vids when they get yanked off the ground and dragged, completely out of control. It's as much the kite as it is the pilot.

There's two kites beginners love to kill themselves on. Flexifoil Blade 4.9m, Pansh Ace 5m.

This is the power of a Flexifoil Blade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sTDSnU5bJw

Please try before you buy.

Pulsar - 25-5-2011 at 04:28 PM

Stay away from the Blade. Blades are like Ferrari's, everyone wants one but you don't get in a Ferrari after your first driving lesson right? You're gonna have a lot more fun with a kite you can actually control, then with a powerhouse that will just toss you around.

You listed 2 models that are exact opposites: predictable traction (Flow) against professional-grade lift (Blade). Neither is what you want, judging from your first post.

If you want something with jump potential (lots more then the Flow) yet without the aggression and viciousness of a Blade, read what Seanny said a bit higher up. Go for the Peter Lynn Twister. Designed as an advanced beginner for people that later want to jump, this is exactly what you're looking for. In fact, with your body weight, and enough self-restraint to only go kiting in low winds (think 10 knots max) the first 10 or so times, you could even get the 5.6. Or you could get a 4.1 now, and a 7.7 next year after you had lots of practise, and really get some hang-time.

ablanquart - 25-5-2011 at 07:18 PM

Thanks for the advice, but that Youtube video is of someone on a Flexifoil Blade 8.5m (close to double the surface area of the 4.9m I want to get) and of someone buggying who appears to be about half my size. Judging by the wide range of recommendations (even in this thread alone) the range varies widely. The local kite shop told me I'd need at least a 5m... I'm gonna check out the Peter Lynn Twister now..

:)

Seanny - 25-5-2011 at 07:47 PM

Yes I know it's an 8.5m but the wind is proportionate... All it is is a bigger Blade in less wind... You'd get the same result with a smaller Blade in more wind (the wind that it's meant for, which WILL give you the same results as what you saw in the vid, with MORE consequences). TRUST ME! A 4.9m Blade WILL loft you, and you WILL go up high, and most likely, plummet because the kite's sail area isn't big enough. At least with the guy on the 8.5m he was able to have a soft landing because of the kite's size. An 8.5m Blade with a wind gust to 20 and a 4.9m Blade with a wind gust to 35 or 40 (not unlikely) will do the same thing. Here, the wind will commonly be 15 mph gusting to 30.

Just wait'll you get your ass handed to you by a kite, because I know I have. I'm not trying to be a killjoy, because if there's anyone on this forum that's young and spontaneous and prone to push it, it's me. I'm hard headed, but not reckless or stupid. We just don't want you to be sent to the hospital. I've got 2+ years of kiting experience under my belt and I bet you there are people here who have over 10. We'd all tell you the same thing. Bring up the word "Widow-maker" in any land kiting circle, and everyone will know you're talking about a 4.9m Blade.

Seanny - 25-5-2011 at 08:02 PM

4m Blade crash

Blade 6.5m, he broke his leg

Blade man-lifting

Blade 4.9m crash

Blade III 4.9m fail

Big guy VS. Blade III 4.9m fail

Another kid on a 4.9m Blade, fail

Took all of 3 minutes of YouTube searching to find these.

Kamikuza - 25-5-2011 at 08:37 PM

I gotta admit that I'm surprised anyone is recommending fixed bridle kites for jumping at all ... it's like driving a car through the San Fransisco hilly district with the throttle jammed on, able to turn left but only being able to control the speed with gravity or crashing into parked cars.

If you can't control the Angle of Attack, you're at the mercy of the kite. All of those videos could be any fixed bridle kite.

... but then, I'm getting soft in my old age :lol:

indigo_wolf - 25-5-2011 at 10:30 PM


I trust that any reputable dealer would talk someone out of a Blade if they were given the impression that it was the buyer's first kite.

However, if it's not a phone order, all someone has to do is hit the "Add to Cart" button and provide their CC number to prep for their chauffeur service to ER. If they do that even in the presence of fairly explicit warmings/disclaimers, it kind of denotes an attitude that no amount of gear to going to adjust in a timely manner.

ATB,
Sam

DAKITEZ - 25-5-2011 at 10:50 PM

I do not remember if the blade IV came in 4m but the new V comes in a 4m. Just wanted to correct a above post.

Also I am curious how many of you that are saying to stay away from a blade have flown the new blade V 4m? I know I haven't. I am not saying I recommend this kite for this guy but I am just curious. I will agree with some of the others and say the twister is a good choice.

It seems obvious to me that ablanquart has much homework to do from his earlier post asking about a imp , flow, or blade. As we all know those 3 kites are all different as day and night. We can do our best to try and steer him in the right direction, but the final decision is his own.

Edit: I ask the question of have you flown a new blade because I have flown the first series of the blade v 6.5m (I have not flown the latest revised version) and they are not like the blades of old. The difference between the blade III and IV was very noticeable. Not so much between the IV and first version of the V. The kite still has tons of lift, but now its not so snatchy and the stability is out of this world. You will have to work hard to try and get a blade IV or V to fold up and fall out of the sky. The adjustable aoa is also very helpfull in turning down some of that lift if you do not want it for any given session.

burritobandit - 25-5-2011 at 11:15 PM

The Blade IV definitely came in 4m; I have a 4m in Midnight :frog:

Kamikuza - 25-5-2011 at 11:58 PM

I think the transmission comparison is overly complicating the issue ;)

What I meant by the analogy and 'at the mercy of the kite' is that the control YOU have over an F.B. is pretty much limited to direction and how aggressive you are with it ... you send the kite for a jump but you don't have the option of feathering the clutch if you're surprised by it - you're going up with the kite and you have little say about matters after that ...
With a depower, you can sheet our or in to control the jump - without stalling the kite, unlike the brakes on handles.

Having jumped with both, it just seems to me like total folly to jump with the F.B.s any more :D just MHO for the reasons I've stated :)

... and don't you believe a 3m isn't powerful - I've jumped my 280lbs ass over-head height with the Cult 3.5. The landings were bone shaking but it was fun - at the time :lol: compare that to bigger jumps with feather soft landings from a depower :o I'll never do it again ;)

indigo_wolf - 26-5-2011 at 09:45 AM

I understand what you are saying. I just think you are far enough on the skill/experience arc that you are discounting some things and your experience skews your perspective by already having a certain number of "aha" moments.

Feathering the clutch is actually a fine motor skill. When you first see someone learning the drive a clutch there a lot of grinding, over-revving, lurching, and stalling.

The monkey-brain innate response to fear/an emergency situtation is to clutch/go to fetal position.... the second response is to overcompensate.

The wind gusts and Homer clutches the control bar with a deathgrip close to his bosom like his long lost teddy bear, because Teddy will make the bad things stop . What happens? Realizing that this isn't the soup that he ordered and that Teddy has been replaced by an evil doppelganger, Homer pushes the control bar away from him.... while he's 20-30 feet in the air.

Everything you say about depower and jumping makes a lot of sense if you are talking about doing it in a teacher-student setting in suitable (smooth) winds. The second set of gray matter will make a lot of difference between when someone decides to call it a day and when they'll take one more run, whether they park the kite at 3:00 or 12:00, whether they are happy progressing through bunny jumps or if the day just isn't complete without some sirens and flashing lights.

I don't see a whole lot of grasshopper/mentor relationships in these videos. It's mostly bystanders and friends pissing themselves laughing until they realize someone has to dial 911.

Factor in the whole sticker shock/going to do it in nn days/"whatta ya mean I need more than one kite" thing. How many times have people decided to go for 5 meter kite because they were going to end up there anyway and I really didn't want to buy two kites (in case I didn't like it)? How about I want to do "x" but I don't want to spend more than "y".... generally x is fairly ambitious and y is a number so low that "I'll get a helmet and padding in a down the road" is a fairly common scenario.

If you only recommend depower kites for people learning to jump, I see a lot of people bargain hunting for older kites with sub-par safeties.

ATB,
Sam

Seanny - 26-5-2011 at 12:33 PM

@DAKITEZ
That's definitely true what you said about the Blade V and the adjustable AoA. I haven't flown one, but what I had in mind with this whole Blade thing, is many people have the conundrum that iWolf pointed out:

"Factor in the whole sticker shock/going to do it in nn days/"whatta ya mean I need more than one kite" thing. How many times have people decided to go for 5 meter kite because they were going to end up there anyway and I really didn't want to buy two kites (in case I didn't like it)? How about I want to do "x" but I don't want to spend more than "y".... generally x is fairly ambitious and y is a number so low that "I'll get a helmet and padding in a down the road" is a fairly common scenario."

They want a Blade but don't want to pay for it. I'd guess they'd try to find a Blade III? Definitly a lot less versatile than the Blade V from what I have heard.

Bladerunner - 26-5-2011 at 03:54 PM

I think the guy at the shop was using the general rule of thumb that you need 5m or more of canopy to be able to float out a jump.
The Blade 4.9 gained the name " the widdow maker " due to it's huge amount of lift . In the wrong hands that lift and minimal float can come on unexpectedly.
If jumping is the goal then bigger is better.

It's a catch 22. You need a small kite to learn to fly. You need a large kite to learn to jump. Starting with a large kite because you want to jump leaves you out or protecting yourself from the kite rather than learning to fly !

We need more than 1 kite and once addicted proper buying that next one becomes a whole lot more important than you can understand from the other side. Just go with a good 3 -4 m at 1st. It's ALL about fly time at 1st and this is the size that will get you the most of that ! PROMISE !