I'm interested in building a kiteboard, and thinking it would be nice to do it right through vacuum lamination, and carbon or fiber glass layups. It
seems that there is a few different systems and methods out there to do this, thus it looks sorta confusing. Can anyone here offer up some advice on
the various systems out there, and what glues, hardeners etc you need to do this. It sounds like it would be expensive for an initial setup costs, but
once you have the equipment, the things you can build seem endless. Not sure if its even a good thing to attempt in my tiny townhouse, in which case
I'd put it off till I move into a house next spring.flyguy0101 - 28-7-2011 at 10:23 AM
Shagg- cant give you the specifics on kiteboards but used to lay up glass and carbon fiber kayaks that we vacuumed. (still have some metal flake and
cloth could send you as well) To save funds on the initial set up consider using an old refridgerator compressor, can usually be picked up cheap and
will create all the vacuum pressure you would need. as for the supplies and vacuum bag, i will look for my old materials supplier when i get back from
jekyll next week. I cant remember the business name but he is in mustoe, va and his name is John Sweet (sweets falls on the gauley is named after
him). Great guy to deal with and pricing is whole sale. as well he carries the full west line of epoxy resins that you would want to use. Just make
sure you have a good resporator because the fumes are NASTY.
Scottindigo_wolf - 28-7-2011 at 10:27 AM
If you can find a company similar to Jamestown Distributors North of the boarder, you can save a fair amount on shipping.
ATB,
Samsilvereaglekiter - 28-7-2011 at 12:03 PM
well now I almost want to start that Bamboo/CF board project Iv been kicking around for a wile acartier1981 - 28-7-2011 at 01:12 PM
I have read about guys using shop vacs just for clamping but if you want to get rid of excess resin a refrigerator or actual vacuum pump is needed. I
tried a couple different methods with my first board. Next one I am just going to be using perf and absorbant layers with the vacuum bag then
wet-sanding and polishing afterwards. I know you can paint of west epoxy but I haven't tried that yet. Next board I am planning on using plywood and
foam core.
Those videos are good but I would mix micro balloons into the epoxy when doing the inserts, you will use less epoxy and it will be lighter. They also
didn't do anything to the rails. Most of the home builders I have talked to or read about use epoxy and micro balloons or silica.
There are so many different ways to go with fabric its ridiculous. Uni-dicrectional glass is inexpensive and helps take out excessive flex.
kiteforum has a board builders which has lots of good info in it, think we could get them to put a board builders section on PKF?shaggs2riches - 28-7-2011 at 06:36 PM
It looks like I would need a fair bit more room than I have atm. The wife and I are looking to finally buy our first home next spring, as such I think
this will have to be on hold till then. Looks like a ton of fun though. I have a wood working store in town that I'll check out when I get back in
town. I think that they only sell wood and basic building supplies though. I'm sure the city will have a store that carries everything though. An old
fridge compressor might be something to look for in the meantime though. I would love to start this now, but I don't think the fumes will sit well
with the wife and neighbors. Too many kids running around to think about doing it on my deck. Thanks for the info though.acartier1981 - 28-7-2011 at 06:40 PM
I don't think the fumes from West System are bad at all. Now if you were to mess with polyester resin that stuff will knock you out easily. You
don't need boat loads of space either. I do all my work in my one car garage between 2 tables, one is 2 ft by 6 ft and one is 2 ft by 4 ft.joedy - 28-7-2011 at 07:06 PM
I have a system from Aerospace Composites that I've used for many years. It has a reservoir and if you can get the vacuum bag sealed tightly with no
leaks, the system will only cycle once every few hours. Not only does this cut down on the noise, but it also increases the longevity of the motor.
I've been able to pull up to 20 inches with this little system, but since most of my layups involved extruded foam, the working limit is really more
around 18 inches. Go past this point and the foam just crushes under the incredible pressure.
The ACP system was nice since it provided the bagging material, mylar, breather, nipple connectors and blue-colored, reusable snap closures. If you're
careful with the bag, you can reuse it again and again.
I use West System epoxies and filler. There's no objectionable odors. To me, it smells like an alien peanut odor, but it's easy to work with. With
West, you can buy slow or fast hardeners depending on how much working time you need before putting the layup in the bag.
I've been bagging complicated RC Sailplane wings for years. Bagging a board that doesn't have a complex planform and camber profile would be a piece
of cake.
And if you're using foam or wood laminates, you'll want to invest in a Woodpecker tool. This helps to allow the epoxy to seep into the layup.
Speaking of planforms, is there anyone willing to trace their boards? It would be neat to have a repository of downloadable planforms for the home
builders.
-joedyLooking_Up - 28-7-2011 at 07:22 PM
ailien penut odor:puzzled:flyguy0101 - 28-7-2011 at 07:25 PM
I agree with the smell issue west is not polyester worse but health wise epoxy resin fumes will give you a nervous system tick. Much mOre dangerous
and unhealthy. That's why the respirator ever talked to somebody who has spent a lot of time doing glass work. They seem to have their own personal
tremor.
Scottjoedy - 28-7-2011 at 07:28 PM
It's hard to describe. It's a "nutty-industrial" smell. Doesn't make you hungry, but doesn't make you want to puke.
It always made of think of alien peanuts on a strange planet.
(Us power kiteboarders are generally a unique lot, so we get some creative leeway in our descriptions.) smile
And yes; exposure to epoxy resins is cumulative and additive over the years. Some guys can no longer be around it without breaking out with various
reactions. Proper respirators and skin protection is a wise decision.
-joedyacartier1981 - 28-7-2011 at 09:28 PM
Gloves are a definite must unless you want to be scrubbing your hands with acetone later which is much worse. I keep my garage door open and can
barely smell it when I use it.
www.joewoodwooker.com has plans on how to build your own vacuum system with a reservoir a switch so it runs the pump a lot less. Mine just has
the switch right now I am adding a tank from harbor freight soon so it runs less. I found if you draw much more then a 20 inch vacuum for very long
you can draw out too much of the resin. Even if you were able to suck it down to a complete vacuum its only about 14 psi.shaggs2riches - 28-7-2011 at 11:47 PM
so the same system would work if you had a mold and were laminating layers to say make a skateboard deck??????
Searching around I found this page..... http://www.acp-composites.com/home.php?cat=4732
I was confused what you meant with 20 inch vacuum but now I see that it is a measurement of the internal pressure from the pump. Would one need any
more pressure if you were to try and build large moldings for cabinets or furniture?????
Following size options available:
18: 18” Bag tube, 20” Quick-lock seal and 15” Breather
36: 36” Bag tube, 40” Quick-lock seal and 30” Breather
60: 60” Bag tube, 70” Quick-lock seal and 60” Breather
Does the above imply a bigger setup for larger projects????? I'm assuming that the Breather is that material that goes over your project and under the
bag to allow the vacuum to flow throughout the whole area being vacuumed?? Not sure what the Quick-Lock seal means.joedy - 29-7-2011 at 03:22 AM
Quick-Lock seals are fantastic. They're basically like a clamshell lock that allows you to seal the bag ends without ruining the bag integrity.
The blue part is "C" shaped. The white part is round. The white part snaps into the center of the blue "C" shaped part. It's a tight, tight fit when
you crimp the bagging material in the lock, but it's airtight.
There's a physical limit on vacuum pressure (I think it was around 26 or so inches) due to our atmosphere. At 18 inches, it akin to something like
15,000 pounds of weight pressure being added to a typical size board layup.
On the above setups, only the material sizes are different. The pump unit is the same. Breather allows the vacuum to spread around the parts being
made. In the RC Sailplane word, we use paper towels for breather material. Cheap and easily discarded.
-joedyTEDWESLEY - 29-7-2011 at 11:45 AM
You might want to look on the West System website. They have a fair amount of info there especially in the Epoxyworks section which is the magazine
that they send out.
I too vacuum bag sailplane wings and other parts using West system products and once you learn the process you will find many uses for vacuum
clamping. The eveness and power of vacuum insures a so;id and complete bonding of the composite materials.
I don't find the fumes very powerful from an odor standpoint, but I would advise a respirator for organic chemicals and latex or nitrile gloves. The
hardeners for epoxy are
strong skin sensitizers. Good luck and have fun !Jakeb826 - 31-7-2011 at 04:07 PM
Not sure if this will help but you may want to check out roarockit.com. They sell skate/longboard vac bags with a manual pump. Not sure if the psi is
what a kite board builder would need but it may be a cheaper start. I think they sell bigger bags as well. You may also check
silverfishlongboarding.com. They have a great board builders forum with some very in depth tutorial type posts. May be some similarities that could be
helpful. I haven't yet ordered from roarockit but plan to soon for my first attempts at longboard decks.
