Power Kite Forum

New Kiter edition 2

lamrith - 6-9-2011 at 06:34 AM

Well 1st off again I want to say thanks for the warm welcome @ SOBB, and all the offers of people to test kites if the wind had cooperated.

The weather that day caused me to do some further evaluation on my needs/wants for a kit and research on typical winds in my area. Looking back at the wind trends up here in Tacoma I see that many may days the winds are sub 10mph, often falling in the 3-6mph range. I know this is about useless for real traction kiting but I would like to get a kite that could at least fly in those light winds. The challenge is then also not being completely overpowered when the winds come up, that said I do not see my self scudding/tractioning much in winds over 15mph, and if I can fly in 5mph to practice, then I should have the skills to keep the kite out of the dangerous part of the window if I do fly in higher winds. I am also on a pretty limited budget, the next kite I buy will have to hold me at least thru close to this time next year for scudding.

SO, I would like to get peoples thoughts on these various kites, my biggest challenge is going to be budget by far I believe.

USE: Scudding general entry level tractioning.
USER: 220# adult with a couple years of 2line stunt kiting
DESIRE: 4line rig, flyable in light 3-6mph wind and scuddable in 10-15+. Kite killers.

1. PKD Buster soufly 3.3 or 4.4: I am leaning toward the 4.4 thinking it may fly better in lighter wind and also offer more power when the wind comes up. I have not found much info out there on them for reviews. Looks like a very nice entry point kite? Pricepoint can't be beat, I could probably buy one in the next 1-2 weeks on my budget.

2. HQ BeamerV 4 or 5m: Not decided on this one size wise, 5m will likely fly in lower wind? HQ beamer quality and reviews are all over, no question it is a highly recommended kite. I spoke with Chris @ HQ about the rush and based on my input he actually recommended it over the more expensive rush/hydra. But it is a full $100 more for a 4m and $150 more for the 5m than the PKD, probably be a good month or more before I could afford(losing flight time pre winter)

3. PL Hornet 2?: Is this an equal rig to the above in terms of target user and use? 4 or 5m again? I have not seen much on this, but also not looked. I thought most PL stuff was over my budget, so pleasantly surprised this hornet Pricing seems between the other two!?

SO, I am in a quandry, the pricepoint of the PKD really makes it stand out bigtime from the other two. But I am not sure if one or the other has better low wind stability/performance?

I know some out there have brand restrictions in what they do/offer, but would like to hear what they have to say regardless of brand, privately even if that works for them knowing I will keep everything in strict confidence. I am hoping some out there have flown 2 or all 3 in similar conditions that can give me a real comparison without concern about brand.

Thanks again all!

lamrith - 6-9-2011 at 06:53 AM

Ohh If I have missed a kite model/brand by all means let me know as well!

If any of them are more water tolerant in flight let me know that as well. Here in Washington we "sometimes" get rain and a nice 10-15mph breeze tends to tag along. I am not above putting on raingear and having some fun. Thankfully it is extremely rare to have Tstorms!:Ange09:

WELDNGOD - 6-9-2011 at 07:12 AM

3-6 mph........ You are gonna have to "drive" it to keep it up. I fly my big PKDs when there is barely any wind and they fly more on apparent wind than the actual wind speed. 5m isn't enough when the winds are really low,it will take an 8-10m for that
.

First , how long have you been flying and what have you flown? I wouldn't recommend anything bigger than 3m kite to a beginner. Once that is mastered then you go up a size or two. There is no "magic" kite. what flies good in 10-15 can't hardly fly in3-6. And what will fly in 3-6 will become a serious handful of power in 10-15.

snowspider - 6-9-2011 at 07:46 AM

Whichever you choose the bigger size will give you more opportunity to have fun.

lamrith - 6-9-2011 at 08:13 AM

Weldngod,
Thanks for the reply! How’d you due dealing with Irene?
I have been flying 2 line stunts for years. I know they are not the same power by any stretch, but I would hope that the basic kite control and wind window experience relates. Plus I will not fly without kite killers. I do have a Symphony 1.7 right now that I have been flying as well, again not near the power, but more familiarity with how foils behave I have had that up in 20+mph without any problem. That kite will go up in 10mph no problems, and will be my high wind rig for now given my experience. My concern is I know on that kite I went to small, I should have grabbed the prism 2.5 but I did not want to put $150 out for a 1st kite not knowing if I would like foils/traction kiting. I was bored with the lack of power 2hrs after starting to fly the 1.7. I do not want that to happen with my next kite which has me leaning beyond the usual 3m 1st traction kite.

I know there is no way I want to go beyond 5m and I am more thinking a 4m would be my "perfect" next step. I do understand with only an angels breath of wind I am going to have to work a kite to a certain extent, pump it to get it filled up and moving, then keep it rolling. My symphony requires that if I stall it on window edge, I have to turn it into the wind and pump it to get it flying and not hanging there. I worry that a 3m will just not fly at all in those light winds, which is what I see predominantly around here. I also want something that I can really scudd with when it is 10-15mph @ ocean shores. (220#+ flier)

3mph is on the low side I will admit, but if it can fly in that then there is almost no day I can't fly. 6mph still keeps allot of days flyable at my local spot and is likely a more realistic wind speed to consider as average.

sand flea - 6-9-2011 at 08:17 AM

Hi Larry,
it was great to visit with you and your son at SOBB.

Those are all great kites without a doubt for your needs, but if I were you I would buy something used on the forum. For your needs they will all work fine. Be patient, there are always nice kites coming and going at very fair prices.

3 to 4 meters will give you plenty of excitement

Gotta go, I am heading back to SOBB
Chris

ragden - 6-9-2011 at 08:34 AM

Things to consider...

If you get a 5m kite, you will be fine if the winds are less than 10mph. At 10mph, it is going to get pretty powered up. Over 15mph, and you are going to be in trouble.

Less than 10mph is going to be the prime time for you to fly this kite and get used to it's power delivery. If you have a buggy, you could probably even ride, though you would be working the kite pretty hard to build up the speed. I've done it before, it is just a lot of work.

There are kites that you can use in the wind range of 3-6, but as the winds go up, you are going to become over powered very quickly. These kinds of conditions also require finesse flying. Light wind riding is not easy. The benefit is, you really learn what you can do with the kite, and you do not get *punished* for mistakes.

Best of luck! :)

lamrith - 6-9-2011 at 08:46 AM

Thanks Chris!

Yeah I have a good deal found on a used PKD 4.4 hence my quandry, I just could not find a ton of info on them, though I have heard people at SOBB have used/owned them. They look like a great kite especially for the price. I know each kite design will have it's strength weakenesses, so I am hoping I get some 1st hand info on them from former owners/users. I would hate to pick something up again that has to have 10mph just to fly at all!:no:

I think you are the person I spoke to for a while then you went out and flew the green lightning kite? So many names/faces it is a all a jumble! How was that kite, I liked the 360 you did. :-p:wee:

Ragden: yeah I am expecting that. 15mph would really really be pushing it, and I have the 1.7 for those days so I am not SOL when it blows... I just flipped thru ocean shores last few months, it ranges5-15mph for the most part a few rare days it busts 15mph+, but mostly right in the 10mph range. Heading there is a full day family trip, 2hrs drive each way, so not done very often. My local spot is 30min away, other side of town and typially sees the 5-10mph with most of it sub 8mph depending on which data station I look at.

arkay - 6-9-2011 at 08:48 AM

^^ what he said! But you are 220... so keep your center low! You're taller than me, and I've got an advantage ;) I think you'd be fine on any of these kites. Depends on how far you want to be thrown into the deep end.

I think the big trick is that you want to fly/skud and not buggy. You need much less power to fly and skud. The 5m kite may pull you over skudding but just move you in the buggy. If this is skudding and on grass I'd stay small, there's lots of friction you'll need to get used to. It's _always_ better to get a smaller kite and you will be able to learn better and it won't yank you. Plus it will just become your higher wind kite once you gain your kiting skills. The budget issue makes it trickier, but if you really enjoy it, you'll find a (legal) way to get another kite :)

3-6 is not much wind... I don't have a kite that will even really fly in that :/ I can fly my 6m but it's not much fun... typically you need 8 to get an average kite off the ground and 10 to move. That is unless you have a LARGE foil 11/16/19m..

Great to meet you at sobb!

ragden - 6-9-2011 at 09:32 AM

2hrs is a trip you dont make often? Hm.. Must be the kids... I drive to the beach every weekend for a day trip and its 3-4hrs depending on traffic... I do not, however, have kids I need to lug around... Just a wife who doesnt always want to go...

Since you dont have anything to actually ride in, I tend to agree with arkay, you may not need the bigger kite.. but if you are planning actually riding something SOMDAY, you may appreciate the extra power that comes with the larger kite... Question is, would you be looking for a buggy, or a landboard... when the time comes, of course...
;)

lamrith - 6-9-2011 at 09:46 AM

I never was a skateboarder. Tried my hand @ snowboarding 2 seasons, back (happily) to 2 planking on snow. So if I ever get on wheels it would be a buggy, if ever. Sounding like a 4 might be a nice balance between low wind flight and the 5m which I think more now would be to large?

yeah 2hrs each way is a bit far for me with kids, that means leaving by 8am to head to beach, are we there yet? Get there and set-up, in air about 11am. Then leaving for home by 4pm, maybe 5 at latest, so packing up by 3:30-4:30. 4hrs on road for 4.5-5.5hrs in air.. The balance is just not there for me time and fuel wise. Staying over is always a way to maximise time, but family of 4 that gets spendy fast, as in price of a PKD each night..
I am am hearing there is a park up north of me, might be 1hr-1.5hr away, still have to check that out and it is "in town" so could have family options right there as well. Plus my smaller park here that does not see as high of winds..

Scudley - 6-9-2011 at 11:46 AM

If you have two years of stunt kite flying experience, you will be fine learning foils on a five meter. You understand the window and different types of wind. You know how to steer a kite on power lines, brakes are not that complicated. Start out in stable low wind conditions; work your way up. Respect the potential power of your kite.
Absolute newbies have flown the kite you saw Chris do the 360 with, my 10m Reflex, in low but stable wind. They've had a gas with it. In economic terms, I think you would be better off to buy a good used intermediate kite than you will keep than a beginner kite that you will master quickly and want more. EddieB would sell his 5m Libre Bora $300 shipped to Seattle. He does not come on the forum often, but I could let him know if you are interested. He also has a Zebra 3m.

If you really want killers, are they more than $20?
S

lamrith - 6-9-2011 at 12:10 PM

Yeah that kite looks nice and mellow, but solid consideringg the lack of wind at the time. I bet it is a handfull in 10mph! The kites I listed are beginner or intermediate?

The more I think on it, and with the input I am seeing, the PKD 4.4 is really sounding like my best option. From everything I see/hear it is a very solid performer and gets me that next steup up in size without breaking the bank. that just leaves more $$ building up for the next rig, which we all know will happen...

silvereaglekiter - 6-9-2011 at 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lamrith
From everything I see/hear it is a very solid performer and gets me that next steup up in size without breaking the bank. that just leaves more $$ building up for the next rig, which we all know will happen...


looks like you have been hooked (I mean) taught well out at The SOBB :smilegrin::thumbup:

lamrith - 6-9-2011 at 01:18 PM

heh I was hooked before I showed up, they just made sure to fully set the hook so I could not spit it out and get away!

Scudley - 6-9-2011 at 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lamrith
Yeah that kite looks nice and mellow, but solid consideringg the lack of wind at the time. I bet it is a handfull in 10mph! The kites I listed are beginner or intermediate?

The more I think on it, and with the input I am seeing, the PKD 4.4 is really sounding like my best option. From everything I see/hear it is a very solid performer and gets me that next steup up in size without breaking the bank. that just leaves more $$ building up for the next rig, which we all know will happen...

The Phlorescent Leach, my 10m, is usually put away before 10kts, so I don't know. I have other sizes that are less work to fly in 10 kts, (I don't hook in).
The kites you have listed are ones that are suggested for beginners on the forum all the time. The Bora was a nice solid intermediate reasonably high aspect ratio kite. It will have you scudding long before 16 kts. The used Bora is a little more money, but a lot more kite. I think you would have fun longer with the Libre than with the PKD. That way you have more time to build up $$ for that kite that will scud you in 6kts. Plus you won't have a 4m kite you have grown out of in 6 months.
If you are still down at SOBB, John Ellis could tell you what the Bora originally sold for. I am sure it was far more than the PKD. I do not stand to make any money on this, I just think the Bora is a much nicer kite.
S

lamrith - 7-9-2011 at 07:03 AM

I want to thank you all for the input!

I was able to meet up with Jeff lastnight in Renton, winds were not really there, but we were able to get both a 4.4 buster soulfly and 6.7 (I think century?) up for a little bit. There was some light but steady air up top, just had to pump a few times and get the kite moving to get to it. That said the 30min of flight time between "landings" really really helped me understand how different a meter or two can feel! The 4.4 and 6.7 both flew when I could not even feel wind at ground level, but pulled solid enough up top to have me tired and working. This made me very happy.:singing:

The 4.4 was nice and steady but the wind was stronger and more consistent when we started, pull felt perfect for what I was looking for as a 1st kite, but again almost no wind. This was a wake-up call, not completely unexpected, but still eye-opening, I think would def be overpowered with a 4m in 10mph. With what we had, I was not even remotely scudding, but I need to fly before I do that anyways! I also need to get back in shape so I can hold the kite at power!
The 6.7 came out afterwards as the wind started to drop, and had even more pull initially with the lighter wind, but then the wind really vanished and I could not keep the canvas full and flying. It was very cool to feel the big difference in power as well as the different handling of the two.

Thanks Jeff!

I am definitely going to go with a 3-3.5m kite for my next step. I know when I go to Ocean shores, the wind tends to be ripping a good bit more than what we had and don't want to have a shiny new kite with room and wind available and be tempted to fly grossly overpowered and get hurt. :wee:

mbreslin - 7-9-2011 at 06:06 PM

I wanted to chime in as I'm a purely static flying beginner. I fly in an area with crap wind like you mentioned and am very close to your weight. My friend and I have been flying for about 2 months a couple times a week. I fly with a Viper S 3.9m. I believe it is about the perfect size for your weight/wind/skill level. People say start small start small and I'm not saying it's not good advice but if you are smart and start with light wind rather than just a smaller kite you can quickly get up to speed and then be fine with a 4m in 10-15+. We have an absolute blast in even 8mph wind. As the wind gets better it's just more and more fun.

Like you I was sort of looking for the one size fits all perfect kite and unfortunately there just isn't one. However, I think 4m is a very good sweet spot for low-ish wind to quite high wind for static flying.

Unfortunately there will be some days that the wind will be a tiny bit too low to fly and yes if you had a 6m+ kite you would still be able to fly. After trying a 5.6m twister I don't believe large kites are very much fun for static flyers. It is extremely tiring keeping a large kite powered up even in light wind, so you're either pumping and walking backwards to keep it up or having it powered up which is basically exhausting. Jumping is fun but after really powering up the kite a few times to get some decent jumps I was pretty much worn out.

So in short: Get a 3.9m Viper S, it's not too big for your size/skill level, just fly in the beginning in low wind (which you say you have low wind near you anyway). And on some days there just isn't going to be enough wind to fly. The only answer is to spend the money on a much larger kite so that you can at least fly on those days (though in my opinion it won't be much fun anyway) or just go find something else to do when there's no wind. (I fly rc aircraft)

Good luck.

My beginner thread is here: thread

It has some videos of our first flights. Don't let my beginner boring flying fool you, the kite really rips. I will post some new videos soon.

dandre - 8-9-2011 at 01:38 PM

/cough TWISTER 5.6
/endcough

lamrith - 8-9-2011 at 02:12 PM

Heh I may yet (read definitely will) end up with a twister, or flow, or something larger and more sporty down the line.

I ended up grabbing a Buster Soulfly 3.3. Given my budget, the price-point was a big factor, and after hands-on with the 4.4 version I knew the kite was solid flier and high quality. I was thinking originally about both the PL Hornet and HQ Beamer, but @$40 and $80 more respectively I just could not justify the extra dough. You just can't beat $180 brand new ready to go! Even the used PL and beamers I was seeing were the same $ as the new PKD, and I would rather have a new unmolested kite to unwrap. It's like Christmas in September!!

I almost opted for the 4.4, but after flying it Tues night in light winds(Thanks Jeff!), knew that it would not be a good idea for taking to OC as the winds are much higher. This just leaves me more room to save up and pick-up a 5-6m next rig once I am ready(yes I know it will happen soon)! I have not had a chance to fly it yet, as the winds died last-night before I could get off the ground, but the rig is prepped and ready to go!

I will post a review on the buster once I get her airborne, where's a storm front when you need one!?:Ange09:

WELDNGOD - 8-9-2011 at 02:20 PM

Enjoy,welcome to club PKD!:wee: When you get your skilz sorted,get Jeff to let ya fly a PKD Century.

lamrith - 8-9-2011 at 02:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WELDNGOD
Enjoy,welcome to club PKD!:wee: When you get your skilz sorted,get Jeff to let ya fly a PKD Century.


HEH WAYY ahead of you.
HE had me put up the 6.7 century right after the 4.4. Unfortunately(or fortunately depending on view) the wind died right after I lifted off, so I only made a couple passes high in the window before we ran out of air. Lower wind and it pulled harder than the 4.4 did in heavier wind. WOOT
That said it did give me an appreciation of the power and prompted my deciding on the 3.3 versus the 4.4. Knowing I had that next bird size right there.. Course really need a buggy to "need" the 6m...:wee:

WELDNGOD - 8-9-2011 at 03:17 PM

Try a combat next.... a small Combat! Soon ,just flying and scudding,jumping isn't gonna do it anymore. If you ever get in motion you will see a whole different experience. Kites come "alive" when you harness their forward motion,it wants to fly! Static flying you are leashing it down to one spot,like a dog on a chain. Get in a buggy one time and your done for!:wee::wee::wee:

lamrith - 8-9-2011 at 03:34 PM

Former hardcore cyclist, Mtn Biker, motocross guy. Yeah I know the adrenalin thing!

I like the dog on a chain analogy, I am one of those guys that had my dog pull me on a bike...

You guys are da Debil!:evil:

WELDNGOD - 8-9-2011 at 04:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lamrith
You guys are da Debil!:evil:
YUP!:wee:

fletcht - 8-9-2011 at 07:11 PM

Quote:
Soon ,just flying and scudding,jumping isn't gonna do it anymore. If you ever get in motion you will see a whole different experience. Kites come "alive" when you harness their forward motion,it wants to fly! Static flying you are leashing it down to one spot,like a dog on a chain. Get in a buggy one time and your done for!


What Weldngod said,

Quote:
Enjoy,welcome to club PKD! When you get your skilz sorted,get Jeff to let ya fly a PKD Century.


Again

lamrith - 9-9-2011 at 03:18 PM

Ohhh yeah I already know.

Went out lastnight to chamber's Bay with Todd, he gave me a bunch of pointers and guidance unpacking the kite again. Wind was bouncing 0-3-5-0 I put her up everytime I had the chance and had one session that lasted a couple min, but that was it before the wind died.

So here I sit @ work, itching to fly.. I pop over tp wunderground and its showing that it has been blowing 10mph(+/-3) since 11am! GRRRR!!!
:flaming:

Ohh and am already dreaming about a 5 or 6m second rig...

WELDNGOD - 9-9-2011 at 06:39 PM

would that be my Brother Todd?

lamrith - 9-9-2011 at 07:15 PM

The very same I believe! Kind of wild that a fellow (former) east coaster, is on this forum and now lives 5 miles from me... :bigok:

Nice having a pro right around the corner to learn from.:wee:

WELDNGOD - 9-9-2011 at 07:54 PM

Man, you are like the luckiest noob ever! Todd will hook you up w/ some skilz fo sho! He's a great asset to the kiting community. And I miss him already!:megan:

lamrith - 9-9-2011 at 08:36 PM

Yeah we already untangled the mess I made of my lines after my 1st try flying in no wind. I wound one way, unwound another.. DOH!

Well he's mine now, mine mine, MINE! :moon:

lamrith - 12-9-2011 at 03:41 PM

WOOOOHOOO!!:wee: I am lovin this Buster 3.3!

We had great wind on sunday, so I went out to chambers and spent a long time in the air, I am happy that I chose the 3.3 as my 1st kite. I know now I can handle it in the 10mph+ winds static. Though it is a workout! Wind started light at 1st, 5mph off and on, then it came on solid @5mph gusts to 8. After a Few more min it was sustaining 10 with some gusts to?? Those are ground level readings, may have been a hair higher above, but I was unobstructed to water where the wind was coming from so probably not much higher. I spent at least an hour with the kite in the air, divided between 3-4 long sessions with breaks between to get the feeling in my arms and hands back. This kite pulled like a freight train once the wind came up!

I posted a review of the kite. I have not seen one on this new version yet and figured a new flier review would help other new fliers..
Buster Soufly 3.3 review
Thanks Jeff!

Now the next question, it took almost a week for me to get the sustained 5+mph needed for this 3.3 to fly reliably and it only lasted 2 days, now gone again. Based on the days I was there the wind often cycles in the 3-5mph range most days. What would be a good recommendation for a kite to fly in that range or overlap a bit but fly under 5mph consistently?

I have been considering something that is water launchable still, looking at history for the area I would be in the water I see similar 3-5mph wind. It will be a few months before I can dream of affording another rig, but would like to at least start looking and researching.

Maybe I need to look at an arc, or other Depower in a few months? I know I will not be getting up on a board in the water, water out here is to cold for me. How are those to static fly and then progress to body dragging in the water? I understand a larger depower is going to fly slower which is fine, just need something to put in the air on all these light wind days and would like this next rig to be usable in water if possible for taking on trips east. I am not a board guy, so will not need something to provide power in motion. But it would be cool to pull myself out of the water or water jump if possible.