Power Kite Forum

Twinskins (like PL Charger, Synergy & Venom)? Good or not?

octagon - 30-9-2011 at 12:44 PM

I'm looking for my first kite. I've done some practice with a borrowed ozone flow 5m and I like flying it a lot, but it's not mine, it has no depower and it's too small to pull me on skis unless the winds are very high. I've been looking for a cheap depowerable land kite and found many twin skins. Why are they so cheap? Are they that bad? How do they compare to a standard ski kite like HQ Montana or the Frenzy? A pain to inflate or heavy or what? What size should I look for, I'm 185 lb, a good skier and novice kiter. Or should I just look the other way... :)

dylanj423 - 30-9-2011 at 01:16 PM

def do not underestimate the twinskin... its all i fly on my boards... for a reason!

they are highly undervalued on the resale mkt, tho :/

good for buyers :)

if you weigh 185, youll want at least a 19 and a 13ish... great kites

octagon - 30-9-2011 at 01:55 PM

Maybe I buy one of those then. They certainly are cheap and I can use them on water if I ever get that idea.

Woha, 19! What is that compared to a depowerable foil? 9 or 12?

flyjump - 30-9-2011 at 02:17 PM

Yeah I use 19 & 12 chargers. they are great, and youll progress very quickly on them

kitedelight - 30-9-2011 at 03:21 PM

lol, this is arc central, you've come to the right place if you want to give them a shot.
I have one of each right now, arc, foil and lei - they are all different Each types have their pros and cons. Unfortunately for me, I appreciate them all. :)

Arcs are a nice ride in gusty winds...they just kinda wobble about if lots of turbulent air hits it, and they autozenith...really nice aspects to learn with. They have *really* good upper end too.

Charger 12 might be a bit much for a beginner?? don't know. I know my venom 13 definitely feels tamer than the charger 12 I tested, chargers turn very fast and generate power quite quickly. I would switch my venom up for a charger now, but venom/synergy would be easier to learn on - less to pay attention to. Can't comment on the larger sizes - haven't flown them.

Feyd - 30-9-2011 at 03:24 PM

A 19m Arc is going to match closer to a 12m open cell foil. But with more wind range than you'll know what to do with.

As to why the resale market for Arcs is so bad these days I'm not sure. I think part of it is the market was full of people who somehow were able o buy the kites at cost or below in some cases and started dumping them on Ebay and stuff. That was a few years back and I haven't seen it like that in a while.

It must have been driving dealers mad. I would have been ticked if I was trying to sell an Arc at just below MSRP and some kid on Ebay was selling the same current issue kite brand new for 40-50% less. But like I said it doesn't seem to be the case so much these days.

I think now the economy is doing the damage. Maybe some people had to dump thier Arcs for short $ just because they needed the cash and that hurt the resale market. Then it was compounded by people's lack of spare funds to be buying Arcs at what they're worth. Add the fact that as far as kites out there go Arcs are a bit of an odd bird. They take a little more to learn to fly them and get the most out of them but when you do you never look back.

At least I haven't.:wee:

PHREERIDER - 30-9-2011 at 06:37 PM

i have to say they are not as bad as the rest, lei repair is a pain and about 300 hours they'll be needing something.

arcs are simple effective reliable ... 6-7year old arc pulls session when all my new fancy tube stuff craps out

the bar pressure and learning curve and feel are very different on an arc. i have flown alot of stuff and arcs don't turn in junk like lei's

arcs much more suited for land use.

PHREERIDER - 30-9-2011 at 07:05 PM

http://vimeo.com/28252368

maybe this will help u see the light

bigkahuna - 1-10-2011 at 01:30 AM

Arcs are a great beginner and multi purpose kite. They are great for solo riders (they are easier to self land than LEI's) and IMO better upwind than LEI's. They are a bit trickier to self launch than an LEI IMO (but once you've learned the technique it's pretty easy), and do not offer as good overall performance as the newer bows/SLE's IMO. But you can't beat an Arc's stability in the air and upwind performance, which are two things most noobs will appreciate. As for durability, the Arc's get the nod there, but a well made LEI that is properly cared for will go well over 300 hours before running into problems. I've been using my Bularoo at least 100 hrs/year (probably closer to 200 hrs/year) for over 4 years now and still don't have any rips, appreciable wear or leaks. It's all about how well you take care of the gear though, a buddy has had his 2010 North Rebel just over a year and already has had to repair two leaking bladders.

pbc - 1-10-2011 at 03:31 AM

I'm Arc flier and a big fan. I just bought my 4th last week. I've flown a Montana as well and it is quite fun. Arcs require more experience to launch and land safely, but once you know how, it's easy. The Montana and the other HQs are more obvious in that respect.

In the air, the Arcs have more bar pressure. When I am cruising I set the trim so I am just shy of stalling (or sliding if the wind is high) and let the the bar sit on the stopper. I steer the kite with one hand. If I try to take the bar in my hands the load beats my hands up and I can't keep the kite's course as true as my hands get tired.

The Montana I flew had very low bar pressure. It was so low I often just kept the bar in my hands. My hands didn't get tired and it was easy to keep the kite flying true. I could also adjust the trim so I could fly one handed with the bar on the stopper.

From the perspective of racing, both kites were equally fast. I doubt either is as fast as a FB race kite, but they are by no means pokey.

For low wind conditions I know the Arcs are not the best choice. I have fun down to 8 mph, but they can be quite challenging to launch in 6 mph. I can't speak to the Montana in this respect as the day I flew the wind was a steady 12mph.

The best thing about both kites is DEPOWER. You get a wider wind range. Your quiver will have fewer kites in it. When the wind comes up and your buds with FB kites are sliding like crazy and heading to the camp to change kites you'll just sheet out and blow past them.

Philip

greasehopper - 1-10-2011 at 07:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pbc
I can't speak to the Montana in this respect as the day I flew the wind was a steady 12mph.
Philip


I've launched and flown my Montana IV 9.5 on a bumpy gnat's fart and buggyed on solid 5 mph night air however, I had to trim it all the way in and work the hell out of it to get moving. Much struggling to obtain and maintain speed so I'm not sure the additional low a range is really a factor unless you're writhing on the floor in thoes of withdrawls.

Feyd - 1-10-2011 at 08:54 AM

Arcs are not just great beginner kites but they're great advanced rider kites as well. Arcs will give what they get, if you want to cruise and just ride they'll do it or if you want to pin it or send it they can do that too.

I'm not sure I agree with Phil on the Montana vs. Arc on the speed front. I've owned several Montanas and have flown several Arcs and spent time going fast on both and IMO the Arcs will outrun the Montana. My first Montana was the M1 and it was by far my favorite. More raw speed and power than the later models and probably the best bet against an Arc.

My last Montana was the M5 9.5 which was an okay kite but not zippy of fast enough for my tastes. I kinda miss that old M1.

Bladerunner - 1-10-2011 at 11:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Feyd
Arcs are not just great beginner kites but they're great advanced rider kites as well. Arcs will give what they get, if you want to cruise and just ride they'll do it or if you want to pin it or send it they can do that too.




Well said ! :thumbup:

As others have mentioned arcs have become more responsive over the years. MANY people who like arcs move to the newest generation because there are real noticable increases.

Arcs are the ugly air mattress of the kitesurf world. The people who use them love them but don't get much respect on water so that big hunk of the market stay away. This makes for a pretty small demand and a pretty good supply of used arcs.

The turning speed and boost have been amped up on the Charger for sure. A rewarding kite to go to once you want to push the limits. Most kite companies have more than one model to choose from . P.L. moved away from that with the Charger. If they had kept the Synergy in production it would have represented the more moderate / beginer riders kite. It truly lives up to cruise kite that will respond if you pin it or send it thing.

The Auto zenith in the slightly older models , Venom through Synergy is stronger and the kites just a bit more forgiving of mistakes. These kites are a good choice for getting started.

13m - 15m sound like large kites but these are the best all round sizes. Unless you have typically high 20 mph winds going smaller is not required.

pbc - 1-10-2011 at 08:52 PM

Just today I took a first time flier out to do some static flying in bumpy inland winds. I started him on a 3m Sputnik. The kite was fast and the kite's pull felt like a bumpy road with the crummy wind.

After about 2 hours of that I put a harness on him and gave him a 16m Scorpion trimmed as light as possible. I helped him with an assisted launch and he did just fine with the kite. He handled it well, never got dragged, lofted, or in any way beat up.

This morning he had never flown even two-line kite. So, yes not a bad beginner kite.

Philip

pbc - 1-10-2011 at 08:54 PM

As to the Montana, what I flew was brand, spanking new out of Chris' demo stock in May. I guess that makes it a Montana 6. I had been flying a Scorp for hours running with Dean on an old prototype Phantom and Chris flying some HQ gear I do not recall. They could just barely beat me. When I switched to the Montana it took me about 20 minutes to figure out how to handle it and then I was running with Chris and Dean again. It really seemed about the same.

This is buggying where our top speeds were maybe 2x the wind speed. Were your experiences on ice? Think that would make a difference?

Philip