Power Kite Forum

Best snow kite for low, gusty winds?

octagon - 9-10-2011 at 11:00 AM

I live in an area where the wind is usually turning very fast, and changing in power. During one 5 minutes flying session the wind normally changes direction by 90 degrees and in power between 4 and 10 knots. A 5 m ozone flow is ok for playing around, from gentle flying to lifting me a few feet. Now I'm looking for something depowerable. Tried a Venom 10, it wasn't even flying except in the gusts. In the low winds it just tubles and folds. And the ground handling was terrible, no way I can get it up on my own. The Flow was very easy.

Any suggestion on the optimal kite? Ive been looking at Ozone access 10 m. Or maybe some HQ or Gin, but the access seem to have the best reputation.

dandre - 9-10-2011 at 11:15 AM

Don't get stuck on a brand. Buy used.

It sounds with your winds you might like a 11-12m
It also sounds like your picking a turbulent area to fly in.

octagon - 9-10-2011 at 11:25 AM

I'm 185 lb by the way...

octagon - 9-10-2011 at 12:52 PM

Too bad I can't chose to live in te French alps... I do not care too much about the brand, just how the kite works. I'd love to buy used, my other stuff (kite, skis aso) is used, but I can't just buy any kite just because it is cheap. In that case I'd just buy a 14 m Gin Eskimo and kill myself (I've seen a reeeal cheap new one) Guess there's a reason some kites are cheap used... Anyway, I'm just interested in which models to look for? I guess HQ montana is a bad choice for my conditions (also cheap)? But what are the good choices? Guess all closed cell kites are out because of the ground handling?

dandre - 9-10-2011 at 01:08 PM

ARC nuts will descend on this thread like flies in a few hours...
I'll just keep it simple and say, open cell foil is great for broad conditions, and are very powerful kites.

You'll be fine @ anything from 10-13m... Used frenzies are a cheap alternative.. if you shop it out well (and be on your toes in price negotiations)

BV Eric is selling his 11m frenzy around a 500 price point.

Most people take really good care of their kites after they learn the ropes; and we have a thread of good traders to let you know someone's history as a seller.

Buying on here isn't a SURE thing, but you'll learn the players quick... Most people here are great to deal with, and genuinely care about getting the kite into your hands in promised condition.

All the kites you mentioned are great.. Sincerely, most modern mainstream brands will suit you just fine. Just nail down the meterage, and your price point.

For the conditions you mentioned, we're probably talking about more kite than you can handle at the moment.
I have a 17m Flysurfer, and that thing is just SCARRY at top end... We're talkin 10 feet of air/slicing upwind in 10mph.

You will be perfectly fine and have PLENTY of excitement with a 10-13m... Then when you've got some skills, you can upgrade the katana...

In the meantime..
If you can't find something scrounging through old for sale posts, go into the wanted forum and shout out what you want. Most people have a kite they've been considering selling; and one mans unloved kite, is anothers new best friend.

Once you work that out.... You can have the kite within days.
money can't buy happiness, but it DOES buy kites.
Chaaa-ching

ALWAYS haggle.
It doesn't matter if you think its worth every penny.

God bless other kiters, but an extra 50$ in your pocket is a big deal. In this racket, you lose your shorts if your not frugal.

shaggs2riches - 9-10-2011 at 02:46 PM

In conditions like that I don't know what kite will give you a hassle free flight. Extreme shifts lulls, gust all packed in the same session will drive even the most seasoned kiter mad. I deal with stuff like that lots and found my open cell foils to be the most manageable through collapse and inverts. More-so I would focus on a low AR kite for those days. Don't want to be lofted when the gusts hit. and learn to keep the kite out to the edges. With time your skills will become accustomed to anticipating the lulls and gusts. With the kite overhead you'll find it overshooting and collapsing if you are not on your toes. (as the gust ends the surge of power will shoot the kite forward fast and then it will collapse) Others might be able to chime in with specific kites that they fly in those situations, for me its my access. Yes the Arcs do have a good reputation for those conditions, but they aren't for everyone.

edit: another kite you might look into is a 10-12m Flysurfer Pulse2 it will behave similar to the access.

John Holgate - 9-10-2011 at 03:36 PM

I wondered out into my paddock yesterday and measured the wind between 12 and 40 kph. Very frustrating conditions to fly in. Ozone Access and HQ Apex I think are your two best bets. I think the new Access XT's may be a little faster and have a bit more depower than the Apex, but the Apex seem to do a little better in lighter winds and are more stable.

Frenzy's and Montana's are faster and more lifty and probably not the kite for your gusty conditions. At least not yet....

Depower's will certainly help in the gusty conditions but you're still gonna be plenty powered up with a 7.5m or 10m when a gust hits even with the bar out. The 7.5m Apex is probably equivalent to your 5m Flow, so maybe the 10m ?

I've only ever flown a Gin inuit 4.5m but it was nowhere near as forgiving as my 6m Access XC. And when I turned the bar, it pinched the power lines where they run through the bar and you could not depower the kite. If you end up with a Gin - make sure they have fixed this.

B-Roc - 9-10-2011 at 05:12 PM

I'm a Gin fan and the Yeti (to use more commonly flown kites) combines the stability of the access with the lift of the frenzy. There is a 8 and a 10.5 for sale hear at very good prices and if you are flying your 5, I think you'd find a 10m depower a step up in controlability and comfort and roughly equal in power but with the ability to shed power if needed.

However, if the winds are shifting 90 degrees and doubling in strength from gust to lull to average, you are going to struggle with any kite. Any chance you can find a place with better wind to fly? You won't believe the difference it makes in kite performance (depower or not).

I hated my Pulse II (6m). The kite had a tendency to backstall to the center of the window and they fly to the zenith with enormous power and it is very fast, I also found its depower to be less then I liked. Its low and upwind performance was incredible.

I eventually sold it for my 6m yeti and in the winds I fly in I am way more happier with the Yeti. I'm not pimping I'm just stating my preferences. FS are great kites, they just weren't great for me.

I experienced the binding that John talks about when static flying the Yeti the first time I got it but never since. Now that I know how the kite likes to be turned and the lines have worn in a bit, I don't experience any issues at all. I was aware that was a problem on the Inuit because it used a round hole. The Eskimo and I'm pretty sure the Yeti uses more of an oval then a circular hole in the bar.

shehatesmyhobbies - 9-10-2011 at 05:27 PM

+1 for Apex.

tridude - 9-10-2011 at 05:31 PM

I gotta try an Apex..................Rich, how about a swap (after WWBB) my 6m Pulse 2 and your 7.5m Apexx...................just a thought................

tridude - 9-10-2011 at 05:34 PM

back on thread shifty winds are an achillies for all kites........low winds are the Arc weakenss.............the Flysurfer Pulse/P2 (closed cell) or the Flysurfer Outlaw (open cell) are great inland candidates................great in low wind and handle gusts very well...........Ive been on FSers now for 6 yrs............

Kober - 9-10-2011 at 07:31 PM

.....
Gin Eskimo 14m..... my most used kite so far ...... never have any issues with it so far and quality is as any kite made by paragliding company ...... good deals on Gin kites happen often since company is not that well known in USA as other ...... however when I read European forums ( Polish, French, UK ) they are rated as top shelf kites ...... My Eskimo is 2007 model and works well for me in low wind conditions...... Me and Jamez have same 14m model and use it in Kitestorm and few other snow kiting sessions last winter along riders with Ozone HQ and FS with equal results ..... I am not sure if I want to try fly it in crazy gusty winds .... I try my Yeti 4.5m in turbulent winds right before Irena arrive and after 20 min of "flying" I give up ......
few videos with 14m that we made .....

Kitestorm 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBLAsOiGxjI
Belmar Beach Buggy Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtq6viDJCJM
My First Buggy Ride
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAkoG0DZBwI

Feyd - 10-10-2011 at 04:51 AM

I guess I'm an "Arc Nut". Not sure how I feel about the lable but I know how I feel about the kites.

In gusty shifty conditions you can't beat an arc in general assuming you know how to fly it. Arcs take a little more skill to fly than open cell foils and for a beginner or someone who doesn't know how to get the most out of an Arc it can be frustrating. A 10m V1 isn't gonna pull 185# in light shifty winds unless the surface is REALLY good and the pilot knows where to put the kite and when. Keep in mind that the projected area on that 10m is about 7m.

Arcs after F-Arcs and prior to Chargers are not the easiest in low wind. That said I've raced Arcs against the Flysurfer Silver Arrows in light winds (easily the best know light wind rigs) and done well. Sure I had to work a little harder but it showed me that the lightwind range on Arcs is pretty good. At least on the snow.


For ease of use A bridaled foil is a good choice. Apex's are great kites they handle gusts better than most of the foils out there and respond well to wind shifts and air bricks. At 185 you're still gonna have a hard time getting solid pull on even the 10m. Where are you flying these things?

dandre - 10-10-2011 at 05:23 AM

Can we recognize he's a new kiter, and that any day under 10mph is a headache in the wrong fields?
He hasn't learned about fields that open up in certain conditions, seasonal wind or where turbulences can be dispelled by proper windspeed.

He was prob just out on a so-so day in summer. I'm sure soon enough he'll naturally gravitate twards a better field, and his conditions will improve with the seasons.

Can I get an amen on 10-13?
I second(not as your first kite) the 14m eskimo if you're going to be flying dynamically... I.E. Skates, Mountainboard, skis, snowboard...
Otherwise stick around 11m-13m

tridude - 10-10-2011 at 08:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dandre
Can we recognize he's a new kiter, and that any day under 10mph is a headache in the wrong fields?
He hasn't learned about fields that open up in certain conditions, seasonal wind or where turbulences can be dispelled by proper windspeed.

He was prob just out on a so-so day in summer. I'm sure soon enough he'll naturally gravitate twards a better field, and his conditions will improve with the seasons.

Can I get an amen on 10-13?
I second(not as your first kite) the 14m eskimo if you're going to be flying dynamically... I.E. Skates, Mountainboard, skis, snowboard...
Otherwise stick around 11m-13m


exactly this is why I recommend the Pulse/Pulse 2/ Psycho 3s over the Speeds (especially if youre a new kiter or new to FSer)...however the learning curve isnt that bad especially if you flying with experienced pilots...............the low end gap will def be less on snow and ice, good point......I do know forum member secondwind hit 45 plus mph on snow in 7/8 mph of wind on his 19m SA2 three years ago...................I really need to try the frozen aqua................

octagon - 10-10-2011 at 01:15 PM

Thanks a lot! This forum is really helpful!

Yup, I'm exactley that newbie you described. Or almost exactly, I do quite a lot of long distance skating in the winters, so I know something about the wind and where and when I can find it. However, the last few years the lakes have been snow covered and skating on plowed ice tracks is just excercise. Sometimes I go up in the mountains or off to the coast, then I think the V1 will pull me without problems. but I want to have some fun where I live also. On long distance ice skates anything will do, the Flow is way to strong for that. I'm an experienced freeride skier, so the skiing part will be fine. But as a kiter I'm a novice.

I think the Arcs are out, at least for now. I find it a bit frustrating to have to blow the ting up, and getting the thing up without a helper is really hard. I can borrow a Peter Lynn Synnergy 15 m to give it a try, maybe it flies better in low winds than the little V10? But I still have to fill it and get it up. The Flow is so easy in comparison. This saturday, I had the Flow and the V10 out. I could barely get the V10 up in the air, it flew OK in the gusts, but made line sallad in between. My girlfriend used the Flow, almost got dragged around in the gusts and could play around in the low winds.

The Eskimo you say... Well, it's a very good price. And it will defenately be big enough. I'll experience a few oh #@%$#!s for sure... On the other hand I think I had to few oh #@%$#!s in the last years. :wee: I hope its big and lively, some big kites seems to be just big.

Feyd - 10-10-2011 at 03:45 PM

Heheheh YES dandre we can recognize he's a beginner kiter.:D

I tend to think of open cell bridaled foils vs Arcs is like comparing an Automatic to Manual transmissions in cars. The automatic is a great way to get started but it's a pretty small step to learn to drive a manual when you get the automatic dialed. Especially if you have someone to teach you. If you get that 10m figured out you're gonna love it.

BUT, bear in mind, the 10m V1 is a KICK ASS HIGH WIND KITE. Definately not a low wind rig. However on skates and good ice she'll be a very nice rig in 10-15mph winds. She'll really haul the mail.

My first Arc was a 10m V1 and I hated it the first time out but I love a good fight so I taught myself how to fly it and learned a lot along the way. Now I've had literally hundreds of hours and thousands of snowkite miles on Arcs.

I'd never go back to a bridaled kite as my primary kite. I'm not saying bridaled kites suck, they don't, but they don't work well for my needs or tastes.

The 15m Syn will definately fly better in low winds than a V10. It will also turn as nearly as fast so if the wind shifts you can get the kite back to where it needs to be to stay in the wind.


Where are you?

octagon - 10-10-2011 at 10:00 PM

I'm in the flat and boring part of Sweden.

I guess the Synnergy will pull harder just because of the size. But the problem is to get the kite flying at all and to get it filled with air, when the wind is too low. But I liked the way the V10 behaved when the wind was blowing. It turns way better than the Flow, thats for sure. But as a low wind kite I guess Arcs are out.

Kober - 10-10-2011 at 11:28 PM

Feyd ......
How was that Big Blue comparing to Speed3 at that low wind Sunday at last Kitestorm ???? Did you lunch it at all ???

Octagon ..... I be happy with flats covered with snow...... Here in NJ we have problems finding any open space where kiting is allowed .... and very BIG problem finding snow......
I own Synergy and in right conditions is awesome kite with very direct steering....... I use small 18V blower for quicker fill ups ( less then 2min for 12m ) Because of bridless design it is way nicer in gusty conditions then most kites ......

Kamikuza - 10-10-2011 at 11:32 PM

Unity ;) or Speed3 21 - I'm impressed with just how stable that thing is in gusts ... either that, or I've gotten more skilled at handling them :singing:

If it wasn't for the gusts - Ace 12m :lol:

octagon - 11-10-2011 at 04:23 AM

Thanks Kober, feels nice that I'm not in the worst place. Actually, the thing that got me in to snowkiting is the fact that I love skiing, we always gets snow, sometimes even powder, and that the highest point around here is about 30 meter. But with a kite, flat isn't nescesarely boring. I've just bought stuff to build a 12 V blower!

doneski - 11-10-2011 at 04:50 AM

No matter what kite you buy you should also get an ice climbing ice screw. When you're on ice it gives you something to tie things to so they don't blow away.

Feyd - 11-10-2011 at 04:59 AM

@Kober. Big Blue builds apparent wind very much like my wife's 19m Psycho4 SA. Check this link for my Youtube comparison.

http://youtu.be/vruP8nvoYGk

It's a tough call. You remember how little wind there was at Kitestorm. Definately wind that Peter Lynns are at thier worst in. I wanted to test some theories so I flew my 19m Charger, Big Blue and the F-Arc 1600 to see which would be best in light winds in a race.

The 19m Charger even though it lacks the raw low end that Big Blue has it makes up with handling. You can work the kite and build a lot of apparent wind and pull.

Big Blue has a ton of grunt but she turns too slow to work her to squeeze more bottom end out of her. In a steady wind and a cross wind track she can easily go head to head with the FS but if there are gaps in the wind or shifts the FS is going to handle it better.

The F-Arc really put the hammer down in the up wind leg of the race. The FS S3 had to do twice as many tacks to get to the upwind marker. Paul got a 15 sec head start and the F-Arc took it away and put me in the lead. But the F-Arc's downwind was aweful. And I screwed up in a turn, crashed the kite and Paul beat me. So I got second place.

In the Kitestorm race the FS rider Paul weighed about 40 or 50 lbs less than me just to be put a little more perspective.

At the Mille Lacs Xing I flew a 24m Synergy.

http://youtu.be/faCAZM85bfo

That kite was AWESOME! Same feel as Big Blue but faster handling. There was LESS WIND at Mille and I took first place against some serious light wind LEIs. I would have owned Kitestorm on that Kite.

Short answer, the S3 is a modern lightwind animal. Big Blue is probably 10yrs old at least and slow turning as hell so in most respects and conditions the S3 is a superior wing. But in the right conditions Big Blue kicks.

I will say I'm not convinced that the 21m S3 SA is the best lightwind rig. I race Paul on his home lake with Molly's 19m P4 SA and the P4 kicked the 21m's backside. The 21m is like Big Blue, can't get out of it's own way. I've seen how they work in prime conditions but on a lake surrounded by mountains and full of islands she was a dog.

@ Octagon, The internal air pressure is critical with an Arc. In time you'll learn to launch her underiflated but having an inflator is key to making Arc life simple. Our winds shift too much to inflate the way PL reccomends so we use inflators.;-)

dandre - 11-10-2011 at 05:41 AM

that was very interesting information feyd. I'm too simple minded to deal with the arc learning curve.
Throw and go!

erratic winds - 11-10-2011 at 06:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Feyd
http://youtu.be/vruP8nvoYGk


Peter Lynn Big Blue and 19m Psycho 4 SA.wmv

This video is blocked in your country due to copyright. Thanks EMI, we can't even watch it in the country of the person who posted it?

Bladerunner - 11-10-2011 at 06:49 AM

The sad truth is that on those days our #1 ride is our lawn chairs. They have unfortunately become part of our regular gear.

Trying to fly in those conditions is too much like work IMHO !

Far more fun to sit back and yell " Run Forest ( or Ricky ) RUN !

Feyd - 11-10-2011 at 08:22 AM

I don't know why the vid isn't worki9ng for anyone here in the states. It's worked for everyone that I know up till now.

I agree to a point with BR. Light wind days are a lot of work sometimes but I wouldn't turn anywind down. It's not bad if you have the wings to get the job done.

@ dandre, I doubt you're simple minded. I understand the " throw and go" deal and we have a quiver of Apexs, Rangers and the 19m P4 SA for impromtu moments or when time is an issue. And I miss my Sabres sometimes. But I've gotten pretty good at getting the Arcs up and running and I just love the ride quality above all the other kites I've had.

Maybe the PL snowkites will replace the other bridaled foils in our quiver.;)

Second doneski, octagon needs an ice screw ive he doesn't have one.

octagon - 11-10-2011 at 10:44 AM

The last time i used the back end of à vacuum cleaner to fill up the v10. Today I bought a 3" engine room fan for boats, 12 volts 30 watts and a small 12 V lead battery. Total cost about 20 euro. The fan is sitting inside an ABS pipe. Works like a charm! The box says only 13019-BK, 3" ABS Turbo In-Line Blower. Guess it's some Chinese no name brand.

Kober - 12-10-2011 at 06:12 PM

@ feyd .....
fix that video man !!!!!!
race with that huge Synergy it was one of first kite videos that I have seen since Synergy was my first de-power and I was looking at youtube for some pointers ......
let's hope we get some extra windy days at next Kitestorm ..... or maybe we can visit octagon for unlimited snow covered flats .....

Octagon ...... let us know what you getting and report first thoughts after using it ....... 14m Eskimo is a big kite .... so if you decide to get it make sure you ready for it .... that thing is not a toy ....... I know it .... lol ...... Jaymz have some bad experience with it when wind when from 10mph to 30mph in a second ......
Here is vid with inflator that I use with ARC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wHsL5QDEjA

dandre - 12-10-2011 at 07:28 PM

yeah I'd think of another kite before you go 14m. any open cell over 8-9m in questionable conditions is walking a really fine line.
Trained split second reactions are the product of incremental gains in acceptable risk.
When you're used to being accidentally lofted 5-6 feet and can react instinctually, then you'll feel a little more confident in kiting harder. So on, so on.

please don't buy so much kite that you won't feel comfortable being overpowered in less than ideal conditions.

When a foil overshoots... 14m is a lot of kite re-inflating, I promise it's dedicated to send you straight to heaven.

octagon - 23-10-2011 at 06:51 AM

I ended up buying the Gin Eskimo III 14.5 m. I flew it yesterday and today and I really like the way it flies. Good strong pull in low winds (4-8 mph), and not too much lift. Easy to set up and pack. I was also surprised of how fast this huge thing turns. I was afraid of a lot of tangle due to the complicated bridles, but so far it is very tangle resistant. So far I've only been flying it static, can't wait to get it on snow! And some more wind, but not too much more. Thank you all for all good advices, this is a super kite for my spots!

octagon - 23-10-2011 at 07:32 AM

Bladerunner - 23-10-2011 at 08:32 AM

Please do a write up on the eskimo once you have it figured out !

These kites just don't have proper exposure over here. They have been on top of their game for a long time now !

Very interested in the bottom end + range in gusty winds.

B-Roc - 23-10-2011 at 09:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
Please do a write up on the eskimo once you have it figured out !



The eskimo is no more. Its been replaced by the Yeti. Write up would be nice but woudn't necessarily be beneficial as new Gins in general are rare and I think I've seen 3 used eskimos for sale in the 3 years I've been flying Gin.

Tall and short of Gin is this... build quality is superb and easily on par with Ozone, Flysurfer or whoever one thinks is the "best". Super nice bars. Excellent saftey system. Used ones may take some tuning when you get them depending upon how much tension you like on the rear lines compared to who previously owned the kite.

Quote:
Originally posted by octagon
I ended up buying the Gin Eskimo III 14.5 m. I


Where'd you score that deal? Are you in the States?

Chicagokitejumping - 27-10-2011 at 08:52 AM

I fly an access in a very midwest gusty condition someday more that 30 knots and is very good ... No surprises ....


I would like to try a gin , i bet is a very good kite in gusty condition too...