Power Kite Forum

2 Flows or 1?

mmmike - 18-10-2011 at 05:05 PM

Hi,

(New to this board, so hi!)

I'm just getting into power kiting and am keen to get on a board soon.

I've had some fun already with a friends 3.3m Blade I and a smaller sting and am ready to start picking up my own kites.

I'm looking to cover as much of the 5-30mph wind range as possible, these are the most common speeds around here and vary quite a bit.

I'm wondering what peoples opinions are of the two options I'm looking at. A 4m and a 2m Ozone Flow, or a 3m Ozone Flow. I figure getting the two will increase my bottom and top end, but will there be a mid-point in which neither is best? Or will they just about cover it? The 3m I'm thinking will cover the core of the range but will struggle with the top and bottom end.

Got a helmet and all my safety gear already and have borrowed a copy of the progressions land boarding DVD so am well prepared!

Thoughts welcome!

B-Roc - 18-10-2011 at 05:16 PM

You can't cover that range with those two or even three kites.

Depending upon your weight you want to look at something more like a 2, 4, 6 or a 3, 5, 7 combination.

Or you could go the depower route and depending upon your weight get an 8-10m to cover you for most of that range.

Bladerunner - 18-10-2011 at 06:11 PM

If money is a consideration buy used !!! 3 used kites are going to serve you better than 1 new one !

There is a big difference between being able to fly a kite and that kite generating enough power to move you .

A 3m Flow will fly in most of those winds but won't power you until at least 10kts and will become too much in the upper 20's ( much less while learning )

For the wind you describe I am sorry to say you should budget for 3 kites. ranging from 2 ( or 3 ) to 10m . Something like a 5 in the middle.

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 06:25 AM

Hi guys,

Thanks for the input.

Perhaps I should clarify my intentions a bit more!

Naturally I don't expect to be able to consistently cover the 5-30mph window with just the two kites, I'd likely need the whole range for that; what I was hoping for would be to have the ability to fly in as much of that window as possible; so naturally at 5-10mph I'd expect to be static flying on the 4m, 10-15mph cruising around and maybe start to look at jumps around the 15mph mark on the board (maybe? and of course one day…) and with the 2m static flying 15-20mph and start to move around, cruising etc. in the 20+ region. I wouldn't expect to be fully powered throughout. I'd just quite like to have a small quiver that would allow me to fly in most wind, not necessarily be fully powered and bombing around :) My main worry with this is would there be a point somewhere just after the 15mph zone where the 2m wouldn't be much good and I'd be over powered on the 4m? i.e. where the 3m would normally sit; or do you think I just just about span the gap?

I'm very much on the light side of things, only weight around 10st so I'd be more worried about being overpowered than underpowered (especially when I'm starting out). Depower is definitely the direction I want to head in, but probably not to start with. Also a 10m DP would probably sort my low end (5-10mph) but quickly over power me after that? And an 8m DP would struggle with the low end anyway and still wouldn't safely get me into the twenties - from what I understand anyway. I appreciate you can depower the kite, but all you;re doing is changing the angle of attack, and with an 8m DP in 25+ winds, if the kite soars through the power zone I'm gonna end up riding on my face, which I would rather avoid (as much as possible anyway :p).

2,4,6 sounds like it'd get better coverage (B-Roc), but I'd be happy to just static fly on those low-wind days, or even just slowly cruise around if the kite needs a little working; but shall I take this to mean that you don;t think I;d have a 'dead zone' between the 2 and the 4?

Thanks again guys,

mike.

Bladerunner - 19-10-2011 at 06:47 AM

You are correct that in small sized kites the power per sq meter increases more but I think 2 - 4 is a bit conservative ?

You seem stuck on those 2 so .....

Jumping with a 4m Flow isn't easy or advised !

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 07:03 AM

I'd be happy to go with a 3m and a 5m if I thought it'd work out better, but then I figure I'd lose out on the high end, as I had the blade 3.3m out in 25mph winds and it felt deadly :p We do get 30+ days here and I know I'd feel safe on a 2m even if it was gusting, and although I'd only be cruising around I think that'd suit me in those winds.

Let's put it this way, if I were looking to stretch my budget to 3 kites, I'd probably be looking at the 2,3,5 (with the flows anyway); but I know for a fact that I wouldn't have the 5 out much as winds rarely sit comfortably at 5mph-8mph - that's why I figured the 4 could perform the job of the 5 and the 3, just taking a little off the top and bottom end? I can imagine with my weight I'd be pushing it using the 5 over 10mph? Maybe not? But then I'd be looking at a 2,5, and I'm sure that'd gonna leave a void…

Unless you think I might be better off going for the 3,5 and staying out of the stormy weather? As you can see this is why I asked here, I got caught in an endless loop of uncertainty :p

But admittedly for my first couple kites I would rather play it conservatively, it's not like I expect to be on them forever :) As I say depower is where I plan to head, I just think I'd rather start with FB, for cost and ease; I've had so many recommendations for the flows now they're hard to resist - and I like the idea of being able to bridge the gap with the turbo bar at some point before I move up to depower.

dandre - 19-10-2011 at 07:53 AM

Any weather above 25mph is going to be serious business, especially as a rookie. i'd focus less on all the things you want, and more on getting a kite with some grunt to get you around. Nothing serious mind you; but larger kites have larger canopies, which turns into more safety when you accidentally get lofted the first few times. <will happen

Since you have some experience, I'd say you can skip out on the standard 3-4m recommendation. I'd go straight for a 5m which has enough canopy to bring you down to earth safely, without being overly aggressive in higher winds.

you're playing with some serious small foils, and they move quickly. You should realize that even though a kite is bigger, it also means it's flight characteristics are different. It won't zip so quickly, and you'll have more time to process when things go wrong. <will happen

I understand you want to be conservative, but those smaller kites are dangerous. If you want to buggy... I'd say smaller FB kites are probably ok. They make more sense.

Inevitably if you're boarding, you're going to start chomping at the bit for airtime; and those smaller foils are desperate to teach you a lesson. I'd buy one used kite that can get you moving around, and satisfied with its performance. Something aggressive/too small is probably only going to leave you wanting more power, or in the hospital.

i think if you just take it easy on the wallet, and FLY conservatively... Ultimately you'll have more fun, and not be dead broke all the time <will happen

Progression is a natural part of practice, you'll be surprised how quickly you grow into your kites.

lamrith - 19-10-2011 at 08:03 AM

What is an "avg" day out there? 30mph is going to require the smaller 2m, but what is your avg day, 10-15, 15-25? I would anchor your 1st purchase on being able to fly the MOST days, be it static, or in motion. The caveat being if your avg day is low, I would not recommend a bigger than 4m as a 1st kite regardless, get something 3/4m and get at least a few days flying on it. If your winds are high normally you may even want to drop to a 2/2.5m, something you can static fly in your Avg winds safely. My buster 3.3 I would not fly if I knew the winds were going to be 25, I would pull out the 2m. I static flew the 3.3 in 15-20 and high end it hurt the arms and I should have been scudding rather than hold her down.

My 1st kite was a 3.3m that was 2 mos ago, and I was lucky our winds were up 10-15mph when I got it, so I put some time on it too get an understanding of what it and (more importantly) I could handle. Now I have 3 total, 2m, 3.3, 8m. The 8m sees more fly time than the other two combined, but that is because most days I have seen recently have been 3-5mph and it is the only thing that will fly! You will always have the 3/4m I would not sell it, it will be your high wind kite once your moving, even if you have converted to Depower. Plus it will be your hook, to snag others into the wonderfull addiction of power kiting.

Keep your eyes out/ask around for used rigs and you might be able to get a couple kites cheaper than you think. The 3 I have I have less than $450 into TOTAL, and they were all complete with handles ready to fly...

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 08:10 AM

Cheers dandre,

So you'd recommend starting off with a 5m Flow (if I'm looking at flows) ? I appreciate the whole 'floaty' thing, and if a 2m drops me it's going to drop me hard. I flew a small Sting in very high winds and I quite liked that as it flew around like a mad man, gave constant (but light) pull but at the same time didn't feel like it could pull me over even if it wanted to. Think it was a 1.2m, maybe a 1.6m (will ask), I've heard the flows are a little gruntier for their size than some kites, do you think the 2m will be just that little bit too much in those stronger winds?

The consensus seems to be to go a bit bigger and maybe steer clear of the higher winds? Maybe a 3m,5m ? Which I guess will allow me to creep into the low 20's as my experience progresses?

More than prepared to take a few falls (have had a bad one already), just wanted to avoid going too big for my first kite or two and ending up avoiding the sport through constant accidents :p

If I were to go for a 5m, what winds would you think it'd be ideal for, <10mph?

mike

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 08:18 AM

@lamrith

Tough to say, I'm by the coast and they really are variable. I'd say on average somewhere between 15-20mph. With <10mph being as common as >25mph. With the flights I've had I' most enjoyed somewhere between 10-20, 15mph being a comfortable middle-ground.

dandre - 19-10-2011 at 08:21 AM

5-6m is going to pretty much take you from 8mph to 20 <typical winds anywhere
Any kite works; its the swordsman, not the sword.

Just post in the wanted forums for 5-6m, and you can probably get a good kite for under 200 dollars. I like peppers a lot, and they've been discontinued.

You're gonna beat the hell out of your first real kite anyway; don't stress about how it looks, or the name behind it.
The less money you spend on kites now, the more you have to spend on kites later.

lamrith - 19-10-2011 at 08:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dandre
I like peppers a lot, and they've been discontinued.

You're gonna beat the hell out of your first real kite anyway; don't stress about how it looks, or the name behind it.
The less money you spend on kites now, the more you have to spend on kites later.


Can't agree more. My 8m is a pepper2, it is just a dream to fly, turns well for such a big kite in light winds. Smooth as silk in the air, best purchase I have made yet.

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 08:58 AM

Been replaced with the Hornet from what I can see - comparable to the flow, but I've had a ton of recommendations for the flow and the extra bit of cash isn't a worry. Read in a few places now that the Flow can take a good beating and retains good resell value too, which obviously factor in for me :)

I wouldn't mind picking up a second hand blade, but as they're supposed to be more aggressive I figure I should probably avoid them if I can, as although I did OK with the 3.3m, I could see it was an angry bastard and it did have me face-down at one point - but I suppose that's always a possibility anyway! I'd be looking to pick up the flows used too, but it's tricky to gun for 1 kite when looking second hand, as it's a case of looking at what's available at any given time. I wouldn't mind buying them new, but nobody likes to spend more than they have to :)

dandre: "its the swordsman, not the sword."

Too true, I suppose that's what makes asking these questions even more difficult. As what one person wants out of a kite will differ slightly across the board, not to mention weight/strength differences and ultimately skill.

I'm going to have more of a think on it anyway, probably try and get out a bit more and try some other kites, and fly my buddies ones a bit more.

Telestrat - 19-10-2011 at 09:44 AM

For what it's worth....I weight 200 pounds and use a 3 meter flow and a 5 meter flow for my landboard on hard packed sand. 10 to 25 mph is my wind range. Anything less that 10 mph and I don't waste my time won't go out. Anything more than 25 mph is too dangerous for me (but i still like to go to the beach and watch the others kiters in those high winds!!)

10 to 15 mph is perfect for my 5 meter.
15 to 25 mph is perfect for the 3 meter.

I'm going out there to have fun, not going out to be overpowered, scared and worried about getting hurt.

Good luck!!

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 09:55 AM

"I'm going out there to have fun, not going out to be overpowered, scared and worried about getting hurt. "

My sentiments exactly. I'm sure as I progress my urge for power will increase, but I'd rather work a bit if I have to.

I might be able to get the 3.3m blade off my friend, so I might just go for the 5m Flow to start; sounds like it'll cover the lower end.

How does the 5m perform <10mph? Is it just not worth it at all? I imagine it being fine for static flying?

Telestrat - 19-10-2011 at 10:16 AM

I have ridden my landboard and the 5 meter in less than 10 mph a few times wihch is when I discovered its more frustrating than fun. It actually does fly in less than 10 mph but I need to keep it moving up and down a lot (sining?) and I don't gett much power from it. Again - I weigh 200 pounds so if you are 20 or 30 pounds lighter the 5 meter it will probably work great.

It does stay in the sky in less than 10 mph and is fine for static flying but for power it's better above 10 mph (for me).
I'm very new to the sport so maybe I just don't how to work the kite as well an experienced kiter does.

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 10:26 AM

Heh, well I weight 140 :p

However that still means I'd have to work the kite just as much, all it means from what I gather is you'll be able to hold down a lot more than me, and maybe get moving at a slightly lower wind speed.

Makes me think given your input the 4m might be better… won't give me as much float, but I worry that 60pound weight reduction will result in falling over :p

dandre - 19-10-2011 at 11:08 AM

be careful making assumptions like that.
4m will not give you float.

5m is even pushing the boundaries of float (I had twister 5.6 and that was what I'd consider a minima of float)
He's right about sub 10mph, it's only good for static at that point.

HOWEVER. If there can be one thing said about wind there are days you can fly, and days you can't fly.

Until you're good enough to pilot a 19m flysurfer you don't even need to think about that kind of stuff. ripsession has a twister 4.1 on sale for $225; a damn good price. If you wanna find out about lifty kites on the cheap it's a good way to go.

But i'm telling you, most people get hurt with smaller FB for a reason. If you haven't mastered the redirect (most times your ripped into the air at 20+ mph, AND have to redirect your kite in the window) you're gonna need a bigger kite.

i could send you pictures of my scars from when my 5.6 dropped me like a rock, but I doubt it would inspire anything in you that verbal warnings couldn't.

I bled for days.

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 11:49 AM

Nasty!

So you don't think the 60 pound difference in weight should alter the decision on size?

I suppose my brain is struggling to comprehend that bigger will be safer - and not just gruntier. At 140lb I can't imagine I'd have much of a wind window on a 5m? Will it reach into the bottom end much more than the 4m or are we now just talking float?

Complicated business.

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 11:53 AM

Incidentally I wouldn't mind missing out on the 25+ winds, as I'm sure psychologically it makes everything a bit more frightening.

Think I'm leaning more towards 3m/5m; I guess I just worry about how much I'll be able to use the 5, especially if it's not going to be much good under 10mph (I guess a 6-7m would be best, or, ye, a 15m Flysurfer Speed 3 Deluxe would probably do the job >.<;). But as I say, I'd like to be able to cover 5-30 the best I can; if that means 10-25 then so be it.

n

Looking_Up - 19-10-2011 at 12:00 PM

Go with the 5 flow pulls like a truck and on pavement I only need enough to get the kite up and moving once I hit 5 mph or so the kite comes in and there almost doesn't have to be any wind to be ripping across the parking lot fast enough to get speed wobble your gonna want pads and a brain bucket if the wind drops just lower your rolling resistance parking lots are awesome for the low wind days but if its over 5 I put up my three meter on the pavement and I weigh 300 its just a matter of friction so my vote is for the 3.3 and the 5 and I think you will be presently surprised :thumbup: be careful and use your head and you'll find a sport that will always reward u

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 12:03 PM

On concrete? Jesus that sounds dangerous :p

Must get mad thermal effects if you're somewhere hot? Not to mention the removal of skin from your body :p Will be making sure I'm protected at all times; I imagine as well as potentially saving your life it probably gives you a little more confidence too as falling over isn't as big of a fear.

Thanks for the extra vote though; all this is very helpful!

B-Roc - 19-10-2011 at 12:15 PM

I weigh 145#s and though I don't fly fixed bridles much anymore, when I did, my three most commonly used kites were my 2.5, 3 and 5.5. I sold my 3 to get a high A/R 4 to sit between my low A/R 2.5 and 5.5.

It filled the gap well and while at one time or another I've owned and used a 1.5, 2.5, 3, 4, 5.5, 6, 7, 8.5 the days I most preferred flying were on my 3 and on my 5.5. Given you weigh about the same I would think you too would be well suited on a 3 and 5. You'll loose some high end not having a 2 and some low end not having a 6 but you will have a nice set of kites for when the winds are better suited for enjoyable riding.

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 12:27 PM

Good to hear B-Roc, out of interest what winds would you recommend starting out with the 5m? And what's the eventual top-end? Would it get close to 15mph or is that entering mental territory? As you're a similar weight I figure you'll have a good idea of my 'tipping' point.

Looking_Up - 19-10-2011 at 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mmmike
Good to hear B-Roc, out of interest what winds would you recommend starting out with the 5m? And what's the eventual top-end? Would it get close to 15mph or is that entering mental territory? As you're a similar weight I figure you'll have a good idea of my 'tipping' point.

It is all about friction
If you are static or moving
Buggy or board
And surface condition or the aforementioned friction
If the grass is long or the sand is a little soft
I can fly the 5 in almost nothing in a parking lot but can take it up to gust of 20 to 25 not fun anymore if I have the bug in tall grass or softer surfaces so u just have to get out there and find out what u can handle if I have steady 5 to fifteen the 5 is to much on a board for pavement but will work on really short grass but to tell the truth if I have a steady ten I am putting up the 19 g2 and ridding on the grass at the park
Oh and before I got pads I got road rash in the parking lot

mmmike - 19-10-2011 at 12:56 PM

It'll be exclusive on short-medium cut grass. On a board, but I'll be starting out, so wouldn't want to be overpowered when static (if you know what I mean).

Think I'll give the 5m Flow a go, I can always re-sell to get a 4 if I really think it'd be better suited after giving it a good run for its money, at least we're not talking Flysurfer prices ;)

B-Roc - 19-10-2011 at 01:32 PM

I’m a conservative rider and I ride on a hard packed beach and its been at least 3 years since I’ve flown either the 2.5, 3, or 5.5 but from memory, I know I rode the 2.5 in winds up to 30 mph on skis and probably 22-25 on my landboard.

On my 2.5, I could get going in 17mph winds and depending upon how bumpy the wind was I’d start to get uncomfortable around 22mph.

My 3 was high A/R and that could get me going by 15 and I put it away by 20 as it was too twitchy and didn’t offer much over my 2.5 so I sold it and went for a 4m.

My 5.5 was sweet from 10-12 mph. Don’t recall what its low end was (maybe 7ish on snow and 8ish on a landoard if the surface was fast) and I’m sure I put it away around 14.

My 4m has a higher A/R and I could use that from 10ish to 17ish but if the wind was bumpy it got rather sketchy as that kite generated a lot of speed so I never pushed it beyond my comfort zone.

My 2.5 and 5.5 (JOJO ET Instincts) are probably similar to your Flows in terms of performance, lift and grunt so I would think your useable range would be similar (give or take a few mphs depending upon wind and surface conditions and your comfort at speed and ability to hold down power).

dandre - 19-10-2011 at 02:04 PM

I'll only chime in once more and say there is a reason people transfer to depower. I only advise against a huge FB quiver because depower is alot more reassuring, and about the same price .
I also static flew my twister into 20mph winds.

don't get caught up in the nonsense we all spout.
it's your heart that will give you the right answer.

Bladerunner - 19-10-2011 at 05:04 PM

I know it goes against your grain but the honest truth is that smaller and underpowered is much harder to learn to board . Far more frustrating and even less safe. Trust me on that because it is how I struggled to get going. Starting in low wind with a larger kite that is well powered was the breakthrough for me + others I have taught since! Having some kite to lean back against saves one from going over the top repeatedly when whipping a small kite!

I would not ever try to jump with a 4m kite. I am only 145 - 150lbs and it's way too small. A 5m Flow isnt designed for jumping so would be terrible for learning how.

DO get that 3.3 Blade ! Great kite!