Power Kite Forum - Possible reason for Yak and Vapor prices?

Possible reason for Yak and Vapor prices?

rtz - 1-12-2011 at 04:49 PM

Are they priced like they are because they aren't a volume seller? A Lamborgini/Ferrari type situation? Low volume high margin to make it worth their time?

shehatesmyhobbies - 1-12-2011 at 05:13 PM

They are race kites. Designed to do one thing! WIN!

indigo_wolf - 1-12-2011 at 05:16 PM

They are priced like that because they are race kites and at the bleeding edge of performace.

Think about taking a Ducati Hypermotard and replacing everything possible with titanium and carbon fiber.

That's basically what you are doing when you jump from a Beamer or Flow to a Yakuza GT or Vapor.

Looking at the Vapor design brief may help in understanding some of it.

Other racekites like the PKD Combat and Libre Vampir Race Pro are also priced fairly high compared to their lower A/R siblings.

Basically....
"It's truly amazing what you can get done when you have unlimited funds. Did you know you can have whole houses built in just a matter of months. All you have to say is this..."I don't care what it costs." And then, of course, you've got to really mean it, which no one ever does."

ATB,
Sam

indigo_wolf - 1-12-2011 at 05:30 PM

PS/FYI/FWIW: Windzup still has the Yakuza 5.5 KO up for sale for $350. Which is a screaming deal.

Fair warning... race kites prefer smooth, steady winds and preferably room to run.

ATB,
Sam

dylanj423 - 1-12-2011 at 11:34 PM

it takes a lot more r/d to develop race kites... they are inherently unstable and require extra attention and many rebuilds to get them to where they need to be....

that price is of course, built into the sale price...

herc - 9-12-2011 at 03:28 AM

also, the price of a kite increases with the number of cells. double the number of cells and you double the sewing time and panel cutting time (ok, done by laser, but costly nonetheless). also, you need more ripstop, more bridle attachement points, more ribs+diagonal ribs etc.. everything scales up with the number of cells.

awindofchange - 9-12-2011 at 02:06 PM

The biggest reason for the increase in price is because of the massive amount of R&D that goes into producing them.

One thing that many probably don't realize is that 99% of the kites on the market are designed with one kite. Take the Beamer or the Hornet just as an example. The designers make one kite, usually in the 3 or 4 meter sizes, design it on their cad system, work out all of the details as best as possible, then go to the cutting room and hand cut / hand sew / hand build / hand bridle that one kite. Then it goes into the field for real life testing and flying. The errors are found, and then the kite goes back into the cutting room, ripped apart, re-cut / re-sewn / re-bridled and then tested again. Once that kite seems to be decent, it is passed on to many other pilots who spend as many hours as possible on that kite to once again work out any defects or issues.

Once the kite has proven itself worth of getting the logo of the manufacturer stamped onto it, it then goes into production. They take the final design and then scale it up and down for all the different sizes. All of this effort can take thousands of man hours and a year or even longer to get a final design. Once the final design is done, they are produced in mass numbers and shipped out all over the world. They may even take that same basic design and do minor changes/tweaks/adjustments/improvements and use it for several years of kite models. The major expense of the initial design and R&D is a one time expense.

The Yakuza GT and the Vapor are not produced this way. Instead, every single size is produced by itself and is it's own design. It is not just scaled up or down from a single basic intial kite. The process above is literally followed for every individual size in the entire lineup. Because of the severe competition levels that these kites will be put against, it just doesn't work to have one size that is optimally refined while all the other sizes are acceptable. Every size must be personally designed, the profiles are all different, the width of each size will be configured at it's optimum performance and the size and number of cells will be perfectly selected for each size kite. It it takes one year to produce the kite listed above, it could take 4-5 years or even longer to produce a true high performance race kite like the Yakuza GT and the Vapors.

All of the R&D done on the race kites are done at the extreme racing level, which also takes much more time to refine and develop than just flying the kite at the local park and seeing if it will drag you around without collapsing or overflying. The R&D to get a kite to perform at its maximum power while being at the furthest edge of the window is beyond time consuming and exceptionally difficult. Then to have to do that for 12 different sizes, the time involved is astronomical.

Then you have to figure in the amount of sales compared to the amount of investment and cost. Lets face it, race kites don't sell nearly as much as the other models; partly because of the cost, partly because of the expertise needed to handle them and where/how they are going to be used. Race kites are usually only purchased by people who are at the top of their skills and/or are competing regularly. Because of the small amount of products sold, compared to the huge amount of cost to produce the product - you end up with a kite that is exceptionally expensive to buy. The performance of these high end racing machines is incredible and every size performs at it's optimum level. They are a true work of art.

Hope this helps shed some light on how kites are priced and what goes into them.

Feyd - 9-12-2011 at 03:02 PM

Well said.

XXL - 19-12-2011 at 11:11 AM

One qiuck thing why dose peter lynn charge so much for custom colors

BeamerBob - 19-12-2011 at 12:14 PM

I imagine its because of the extra handling required. The stock colors are almost on automatic, and they can make dozens of a color once they start cutting from that roll. Custon is just 1 kite or even 1 set. More time spent making it.

chris - 19-12-2011 at 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by awindofchange
One thing that many probably don't realize is that 99% of the kites on the market are designed with one kite....They take the final design and then scale it up and down for all the different sizes.

This is not completely accurate. It would seem simple enough, but in real life, kites do not scale up or down perfectly. While it is true that most start with a base model (such as a 3m size) for the benchmark, there can be a significant amount of tweaking and change that occurs between sizes to make a range that flies well.

pyro22487 - 19-12-2011 at 06:29 PM

still i want custom vapors 200$ to change a kite to what i want. doesnt matter the size 200$ for each kite..

BeamerBob - 19-12-2011 at 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pyro22487
still i want custom vapors 200$ to change a kite to what i want. doesnt matter the size 200$ for each kite..

Surely it can't be that much burden to mfr. I can see $50 but not $200. Color just doesn't matter that much to me though.

heliboy50 - 19-12-2011 at 06:56 PM

Full custom colors on a PG wing from Ozone only adds a hundred. I think it gets cheaper for customs if you buy several sizes or a full set.

pyro22487 - 19-12-2011 at 08:32 PM

*ooops double posted*

pyro22487 - 19-12-2011 at 08:39 PM

well i talked to big mike. he sent a email to peterlynn company and they responded with an email that said "100$ for every color changed on every kite. i want to change 2 colors and every kite i buy. so if i buy a full line of vapors we are looking at 2400$ on just having cool custom colors.

XXL - 26-12-2011 at 05:40 PM

sounds like what they told me to I could go for the 50 if that was it but 100 i think i ll stick with stock colors. I just not a red and black fan

awindofchange - 27-12-2011 at 12:51 PM

The Vapor is available standard in three color choices per size. Not just Red & Black.

bigkid - 27-12-2011 at 04:21 PM

Alot to do with the high cost of custom colors is the fact that PL does NOT make kites, they farm them out to another company unlike PKD and Ozone who have there own factories and can do most anything they want with out going through channels that take time and energy, and extra money.

ripsessionkites - 28-12-2011 at 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid
Alot to do with the high cost of custom colors is the fact that PL does NOT make kites, they farm them out to another company unlike PKD and Ozone who have there own factories and can do most anything they want with out going through channels that take time and energy, and extra money.

That's a false statement. PL. stock piles fabric at one factory.

Custom / pro come from one factory and the access range from another.

The last time I checked PKD is using the same factory that U-Turn uses in Sri Lanka

The surcharge for custom color vapors is 100.00

http://peterlynn.com/products/bridled-foil-kites/vapor/custo...

bigkid - 28-12-2011 at 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ripsessionkites

Quote:

Come on dicky lynn, you know better than this. PKD has there own factory. And if you checked a bit deeper you would find out a bit more. I guess you don't know everything, do you.
Hard to believe everything you say now that I know the grit. I have to say you are knowledgeable about kiting in general but being a man of PL you missed the boat. Skeletons in the closet are not easy to keep quiet once they start to rattle.
Sorry for the hijack.

dylanj423 - 28-12-2011 at 07:10 AM

whoa... when did you change your name to bigdik ?

bigkid - 28-12-2011 at 09:04 AM

dylan, u2u sent

dylanj423 - 28-12-2011 at 05:38 PM

u2u received... i dont like the airing of dirty laundry in our public forum... handle your business... but dont take a crap here where we all come to chill...

you have your reasons for whatever... fine, i get it... but dont let it turn you into a jackhole in front of everybody else...

as for me, ive had nothing but good experience dealing with ripsession / rick... i recommend anybody do business with him, he will treat ya right...

now i just need to figure out how to pay for my next purchase with him...

bigkid - 28-12-2011 at 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dylanj423
i recommend anybody do business with him, he will treat ya right...

Thanks, I needed the cheering up. :smilegrin:

pyro22487 - 28-12-2011 at 10:25 PM

Quote:

The surcharge for custom color vapors is 100.00

Ok so clairifying it is $100 per color per kite correct.

indigo_wolf - 28-12-2011 at 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pyro22487
The surcharge for custom color vapors is 100.00

Ok so clairifying it is $100 per color per kite correct.

Close enough for government work.

The exact text on the PL page is:
"For each color changed from the standard color scheme the addition price is 75 euros per kite."

(Currently 75 euros = $96.99)

However.... before you break out the

there is some fine print to be divined from colorizer (at least for the Vapor and I assume similar limitations exist for other kites that they allow customization for):

Color selection domain is determined by fabric.
- Chikara - 13 Colors (Black, Dark Gray, Light Gray, Yellow, Gold, Orange, Red, Purple, Midnight Blue, Royal Blue, Sea Blue, Forest, Green)
- Chikara Pro - 5 Colors (Black, Dark Gray, Orange, Red, Royal Blue)
You can only change two sections of the canopy:
- Main Color - Which is the leading and trailing edge of the canopy topside.
- Tips - The center section leading to the wingtips. This color selection is linked to both the top and bottom skin. The underside of the kite is still primarily white.
The customization is not a panel by panel color selection.

These are just observations from playing with the colorizer.... if that is not an accurate interpretation of reality, anyone with better intel should please feel free to correct.

ATB,
Sam

indigo_wolf - 28-12-2011 at 11:57 PM

>>> Nuking Double Post <<<

Need to lay off the cheesecake during late night posting or changing my passwords more often so my evil twin can't gaslight me.

ATB,
Sam

pyro22487 - 29-12-2011 at 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by indigo_wolf

Quote:

Originally posted by pyro22487
The surcharge for custom color vapors is 100.00

Ok so clairifying it is $100 per color per kite correct.

there is some fine print to be divined from colorizer (at least for the Vapor and I assume similar limitations exist for other kites that they allow customization for):

Color selection domain is determined by fabric.
- Chikara - 13 Colors (Black, Dark Gray, Light Gray, Yellow, Gold, Orange, Red, Purple, Midnight Blue, Royal Blue, Sea Blue, Forest, Green)
- Chikara Pro - 5 Colors (Black, Dark Gray, Orange, Red, Royal Blue)
You can only change two sections of the canopy:
- Main Color - Which is the leading and trailing edge of the canopy topside.
- Tips - The center section leading to the wingtips. This color selection is linked to both the top and bottom skin. The underside of the kite is still primarily white.
The customization is not a panel by panel color selection.

These are just observations from playing with the colorizer.... if that is not an accurate interpretation of reality, anyone with better intel should please feel free to correct.

ATB,
Sam

Yeah thats what I noticed too. Except for the price LOL didn't see that. I had fun with the colorizer too. Green top and bottom panels with midnight blue tips nice combo. What I want though is top bottom forest green with black tips.

ripsessionkites - 29-12-2011 at 03:10 AM

Because custom colours don't run on the regular line with the rest of the other kites it's a surcharge for doing custom

The last time I called its not based on colour it's just the added 100.00 to make you custom colours.

One kite in custom : price + 100.00

pyro22487 - 29-12-2011 at 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ripsessionkites
Because custom colours don't run on the regular line with the rest of the other kites it's a surcharge for doing custom

The last time I called its not based on colour it's just the added 100.00 to make you custom colours.

One kite in custom : price + 100.00

well that might be reasonable if they don't consider switching the black from outside to tips a color change.

XXL - 30-12-2011 at 08:49 PM

Hey thanks rip i was under the idea that is was 100 pre color. Like if you changed tips and then the top skin that would add up to 200 . Thanks thats not to bad then.

Sorry i wasnt clear earlier i know the vapor comes in three stock colors combinations Already have mine picked out for my 4.5. I flew one vapor and now i am hooked. These are very nice kites.