Power Kite Forum

PL ARCs homemade Bar

Soma - 2-12-2011 at 04:44 PM

Hi all

This is mostly towards the ARC guru's but any opinions are welcome:

Ok, first things first:
I now am the proud owner of a PL Scorpion 16m :wee: . Since I don't know jack about ARCs nor ever flown a depower, and the kite was KO, I had to rig up a depower bar to fly the beast.
After reading (and reading, and reading...) the ARC FAQ, I decided to clone a Zero7 with a used Flexifoil depower bar I had here.

Since the measures that are in the FAQ implied cutting the trail leader lines, I simply re-calculated the extra line and set up the center line accordingly.

So, my rig is as shown in these 2 photos beeing, this one:


fully trimmed, bar fully pulled in, and the next one:



fully powered, bar still pulled in.


What I ask is, is this how it should be or is there something I should do?
I know that having the pulley, gives a 2:1 on the trim, that is why I have to pull 2X the trimmer to have the real amount of trim (pull 52cm to have a trim of 26cm as it's said in the FAQ) but, other then that, don't have a clue if something else can be improved/changed.

I've already flown it (barely) with a previous set-up I had on this but the wind was below 10mph and I really don't know HOW I've lifted the wing. Only thing I'm sure of is it was flying mainly on the front lines. The back lines where really slack and it was a bit difficult to turn and all (didn't took any pictures of that first set-up, :( )


Thank you in advance for all your input
Regards

Joćo a.k.a Soma


/EDIT

Changed the topic since this is now, nowhere near a Zero7 Bar, :saint:

/END EDIT

pbc - 2-12-2011 at 07:56 PM

This look pretty good to me. You don't say what the old, my-steering-lines-were-too-slack setup, was like, but I don't think you'd have that problem with this rig. If anything you might find the steering lines to be a bit too short.

I measured my '07 bar after a weekend of flying my Scorps and tweaking the bar and found that the steering line attachment points were 11 cm beyond the attachment points of the main lines when the bar was in the full power up setting as you show in these photos. By full power up I mean trim fully extended and bar pulled all the way to the chicken loop.

I used that 11cm dimension to build a bar and it worked great. I doubt it's right for everyone, but it suits my riding style and is probably not a bad starting point.

Philip

Kamikuza - 2-12-2011 at 08:34 PM

Where's the safety line?

AD72 - 2-12-2011 at 11:11 PM

Did you buy the swivel pulley combination separately? If so, where did you get it?
You should single front line safety with an arc.

shaggs2riches - 3-12-2011 at 12:53 AM

Not a guru, but it looks like you are on the right track. I also wonder about safety????Is it on the rear lines????? Many have found front line safety to be3 the nicest helping to avoid the dreaded death spiral. Again I don't know squat about rigging a bar, but if I were to build one I'd use a Mutiny swivel so that you could flag on a front line. I think that it would keep your front lines nice and untwisted the whole time as well.

Soma - 3-12-2011 at 01:03 AM

@ pbc
The distance I have on this (between the front and back leader lines) is a little more, circa 15cm but since I'm going to test it today, will see if it's too much/less and adjust accordingly.


@ Kamikuza
For now, I'm leashing to one of the "Oh Sh*t handles" ring. But have the rings to make front line flag out.


@ AD72
The swivel and pulley are just leftovers from other things I had. Just thought of putting them to use, :) Safety first and as above -----^^^^, flag ou is in there.


Thank you for all your input
Regards

Joćo a.k.a Soma

Kamikuza - 3-12-2011 at 02:16 AM

Good then - should work ok :) make sure you test it first in light winds blah blah I'm sure you'll be fine!

zero gee - 3-12-2011 at 10:32 AM

Hard to tell from your photos, but it looks like a big piece of velcro holding the O#@%$#! loops in place. If you have a lot of velcro (if it's the fold over flaps type of configuration like on the OEM Zero7 bar) holding the O#@%$#! handle in place on the safety side it can bind long enough to send the kite into spins first. If your lucky it will eventually release or pull out the velcro (like mine did on my Zero7 bar and on a brand new Scorp demo I had).

elnica - 3-12-2011 at 11:10 AM

seems somewhat easy for the trim rope to catch on the bar when trimmed.

Similar issue to nav bar, but the nav bar has a velcro that you can detach so the trim rope isn't forming a loop anymore. I let the rope dangle (not forming a loop) to avoid that problem; I already had it stuck once, fortunately the wind was light and I was able to unhook the bar from the trim rope quickly without incident.

Soma - 5-12-2011 at 04:12 PM

Well, those issues (velcro loops and trim dangle), have to be sorted. The velcro is easy to cut but since I'm going for "flag out center line", it's not a concern. The trim is more dificult to solve. I'm waiting on a Zero7 chicken loop to see if I can make a 1:1 trim but for now it“s going to be like this. The good news is, IT WORKS, :D

I'm on vacations for the next 2 weeks so have lots of time on my hands and today, everything was just perfect to try this out. Winds were 10mph gusting to 13mph which made me took a first glance of what a "auto-zenith type wing" really is and this is one of it's moments:



Manage to have it stationed for several minutes, take out my camera from the bag, took my helmet and put it on, adjusted the foot straps from the landboard, and the Scorpion was just waiting there, like a real disciplined puppy, lol

I'm hooked...

More to come tomorrow, ;)

lamrith - 5-12-2011 at 04:36 PM

Awesome to hear!! Days like that are a great time ot also test and practice deploying the safeties. Best to have them thoroughly sorted before you need them..

Glad the bar is working!! I am itching to try my custom bar too!

PHREERIDER - 5-12-2011 at 05:45 PM

VERY NICE. love custom

reducing leader length in general will bring everything closer, to the top of the pulley, so a center slide ring is reachable. you have the knots already in place and thats a nice touch esp. when its used with multiple kites. the bar end safety is a pain, along with the trim flop thingy, that could get messy. another point the OSR set up ADDS length to bar end leaders . if you drop the OSR floaties you have easy reach for the center slide ring. lots of options there . a nice start for sure Soma!

if harness position and ergonomics allow sometimes a little more throw can be nice as well.

once you get the sweet spot in the trim found you can cut it down even more .... with custom its wide open. the more you fly it the more you'll know what you can drop and the less there to manage with the bar and things the more you can focus on piloting and riding.

nice job!

Soma - 7-12-2011 at 01:45 PM

Well, major improvement to the rig after reading the last few posts (thank you all).

One word came into my mind, SIMPLIFY. And that's what I did. Got rid of the floaters and the length of leader it was on (I'm only using this on land) which brought the connection points closer to me and also took out the OSR and velcros, :D . The bar is becoming really lightweigth and I'm even considering in cutting a little to the brake leader's since there still is a lot of line.

I've also got rid of the swivel because the chicken loop has a spinning attachment and made the "center line flag out" now having the leash centered beeing able to spin the bar.

The only thing I have to solve is the trim. I might shorten the length of it since I have been using the rig always fully depowered and it's been more than enough. That way, instead of a trim of up to 26cm (as said in the FAQ) I might go just for up to 13-15cm. That will reduce the dangle rope. I've managed to extend a few cm the throw of the bar (40cm) which help's making the trim shorter.

Of course, as soon as I get the Zero7 chicken loop, I'll have to change the whole trim scheme but for now, this is how it looks:

PHREERIDER - 7-12-2011 at 04:15 PM

all tidy ! once you fly it more, then trim the dangle part. . very nice

loop through the top of the loop don't just pass a bitter end through it

AD72 - 7-12-2011 at 11:01 PM

There was video I posted in another bar thread that had good examples of what to do with the clamcleat line. Now if I could just find the link......

Soma - 8-12-2011 at 02:01 AM

I believe this is the one you're talking:

Quote:
Originally posted by AD72
Here is a great video showing modifications kiteboard race champions are using much in line with the clamcleat setup you have. The big difference is their kites safety on the two front lines. an arc must flag out on a single front line. So you will have to make sure that front line is clear for travel.



When I first saw it, I knew what I wanted from my rig, :D
Know, just have to re-watch it to clean up my set.

ThanS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s for sharing.

pbc - 8-12-2011 at 05:33 AM

I looked up those cleats and they have a lot of variants. Take a look at http://www.clamcleat.com/home/default.asp and http://www.clamcleat.com/uploads/cleat_information_pdfs/Clea...

The problem is I can't find many of those variants in the U.S. I can find this one in the U.S. for about $20 plus shipping http://www.clamcleat.com/marketing/news_article.asp?theid=11... but I want this one: http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/cleat_details.asp?theid2=167

Anybody know of a good U.S. distributor for these?

Philip

flyguy0101 - 8-12-2011 at 07:22 AM

Philip
check west marine i know they carry the clamcleat line but they dont show those in their catalog but may be able to order
Scott

pbc - 8-12-2011 at 09:14 AM

Yeah I figure any way around I'll have to pick up the phone and ask for something special. The suppliers in the U.S. that have the few kite-compatible cleats available are all in Washington State.

I'll at least be near a West Marine here in FLA at Christmas. It would be a good time to use the free ship-to-store service. :-)

Philip

Soma - 12-12-2011 at 06:43 AM

OK, here I am again with some updates, :D

The rig is finally finished and I managed to simplify it even more:



After testing it, I couldn't make it stall when fully powered which I solved by shortening 5cm to the brake leader's. Problem solved and a superb session yesterday on the beach and with the board.

Went today morning with a bit less wind then yesterday and I realized what other's had told me before: the Scorpion is a pain with low winds and solo launching, :mad:

Since I don't really know what is the exact way to set the internal straps I'm posting here how I've set them up and asking if this is as it should be or not for the low end of it (circa 8mph):

This beeing the Flight Adjuster:


And this, the Steer Adjuster:



As if I wasn't already fustrated for not beeing able to put it up in the Sky, I spotted a small hole near the right wing tip:



It's really small but made me wonder if it was already there when I bought (doubt that because I checked the wing thoroughly) or because I was strugling this morning to lift it and it was sliding on the sand?

And what is the best way to repair it? Dacron tape? Flexible glue?

Thank you for your advices, ;)


/EDIT

The floater's are there in case I decide to go to the water. I can easely slide them on through the leader's, :D

/END EDIT

pbc - 12-12-2011 at 08:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Soma
...Went today morning with a bit less wind then yesterday and I realized what other's had told me before: the Scorpion is a pain with low winds and solo launching, :mad:
...


In lieu of an inflator, there is a trick to inflating Arcs in low wind that works great on the Scorp. I wish I made a video of this yesterday when I was doing this with my 13m, but I'll try a text description:

Set up and fill the Arc like they show in the video. When you find you can't get it to inflate any further, close both zips, walk to the spot just downwind of the upwind zip, grab the leading and trailing edges and hug 'em together. Keep dragging kite skin towards you 'til you feel the skin pull tight. Basically you are forcing all of the air to the ends of the kite buy bear hugging it.

Then open that zip just up wind of the now-floppy portion of the kite and hold it open. The marginal winds should be able to fill out the rest of the kite. If they fail to fill it all the way, repeat the procedure. Recheck your lines and go launch.

This sends Scorps up pretty reliably.

Or you could just get an inflator. :-)

Philip

PHREERIDER - 12-12-2011 at 09:01 AM

glad u had a nice session.

kite must be filled before launch..simple as that. if any zipper on the belly is sagging you need more.

bar in to add back line tension on scorp launch!

in light air , ALL loose.

if the center strap is too tight unit will be stall prone and do poorly in light. you may get a few good racing pops but the kites recovery will be poor without early super hard direction.

the steering straps really a matter of turning speed you are looking for, 1/2 to loose is better for light.

with decent air like 15-20 the center can be a little tighter to give better pop. really have to keep the unit out of stall prone runs...like rolling into the unit while riding.

PHREERIDER - 12-12-2011 at 09:03 AM

the hole ...if you consider it a problem. CLEAN! DRY! then dacron tape. tear aid is good as well

Soma - 12-12-2011 at 09:13 AM

Well, I do have an camping matresses inflator. And I used it but, probably not enough to fill the Scorp to the full.
Never thought of that, bear hug the kite, lol

Since I only use the inflator on the upwind zip, maybe the downwind doesn't fully inflate even though the kite seems well inflated?!?

I've putted the kite in "taco launching" and the 5 cells with the intake valves weren't inflating, which made think the wind was really low and not enough to launch.

That's when I spotted the hole and decided it was time to pack up and leave.

I guess it's time to get a huge ground stake and ghost launch it has Feyd did with his Phantom, :D

Regards
Joćo

Soma - 12-12-2011 at 09:22 AM

@PHREE

Maybe just beeing cautious, since I like my things in pristine condition (even though this is a 2nd hand).

The hole is smaller than my finger nail but is in the wing tip just near the spar pocket which is prone to movement and tension (so methinks).
That is why I'm preventing further damage.

Already have some ripstop tape here and going to take care of it.
Is there an estimated time for the tape to dry/set still, etc?

Tomorrow is my last vacation day and it's estimated 12mph winds, :D

Am hoping I can have a ball, tomorrow, lol

Regards
Joćo

pbc - 12-12-2011 at 09:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Soma
Well, I do have an camping matresses inflator. And I used it but, probably not enough to fill the Scorp to the full.
Never thought of that, bear hug the kite, lol

Since I only use the inflator on the upwind zip, maybe the downwind doesn't fully inflate even though the kite seems well inflated?!?
...


When I use the inflator, I inflate until the inflator starts to whine from the back pressure and the water bottle I use as a weight on the wing tip rolls off. THAT is inflated. THAT wil launch.

Don't worry about inflating at only one end. Any zip will do.

Philip

PHREERIDER - 12-12-2011 at 10:19 AM

tape is immediately ready, pressure not really tension, plug it!

Soma - 15-12-2011 at 12:11 PM

@shaggs2riches

Thank you for showing me that swivel. Just received one bought from their online shop for €42, post included (+- $55, a little steep, I know) but worth every €.
It's a great piece of equipment.


@pbc


The cleat I'm currently using is the CL253 but that's only good to apply on the depower rope. After seeing the full list of the cleats, I've ordered the exact cleat that you're looking for:
CL826 - 11 with CL211 Mk2
directly from their Online Shop for €15 ($20), shipping included.
Tried to simulate a US buyer and the price is $17.45 shipping included so, if interested, why not buy it from there?



Regards to all

Joćo

CL826_USA.PNG - 137kB

pbc - 15-12-2011 at 09:10 PM

Done!. That was quick and painless. :-)

Thanks, Soma. I had not seen the online store.

Philip

Soma - 21-12-2011 at 02:24 PM

And there it is, the final product.

The throw is 33cm adjustable.
The cleat is moveable giving more or less trimm depending on conditions.
And the swivel, rigged with a stainless steel on each leader to flag out on either one.




It looks really slick but there's still the final test to make, fly with it, :lol:


Regards

Joćo

PHREERIDER - 22-12-2011 at 07:07 AM

now you can fly any unit with that set up. nice

front line slide ring on there? image to small to see

Soma - 22-12-2011 at 11:17 AM

Sorry.

Only now I realized I was posting the IMGs without link to the full size, :goosh:

Try and see now, ;)

PHREERIDER - 22-12-2011 at 01:25 PM

kool