Power Kite Forum - PL LEI's - Powered by XMB 1.9.12

PL LEI's

arkay - 21-12-2011 at 09:51 AM

(no I'm not dead)

Looks like the PL LEI launch is upon us...

I was expecting more... they seem pretty mainstream, maybe they were just playing catch-up for their first design? can't wait to hear the rider reviews and if the fury lite rocks the light wind.

http://peterlynn.com/kiteboarding-2012-leading-edge-inflatab...

AD72 - 21-12-2011 at 10:11 AM

I was expecting more information as well. They used the Venom II colors. The images look like computer renderings. Any more insight....Rip? Edit - now i see more info on the tab and a photo of the 7M. Red and blue looks the best.

Feyd - 21-12-2011 at 12:23 PM

Did you guys look at the specs?

http://peterlynn.com/products/lei-tubekites/escape/specifica...

And those are the actual kites BTW.

bigkahuna - 21-12-2011 at 12:31 PM

The design of the Fury / Fury light looks nice, but the colors and graphics are pretty lame. I like that they'll be offering 15m, 17m and 19m, not a lot of options in those sizes now a days. Depending on the price I might be in the market next year.

Kober - 21-12-2011 at 12:32 PM

light wind 19m ????
..... wind range please .....lol.....
I think AD72 is thinking about that picture with 3 kites lined up perfectly ........ that must be Photoshop work ......

ripsessionkites - 21-12-2011 at 01:04 PM

i wasn't going to say much but its out there now so i can speak a bit more

lots in store for the 2012 season, i know MJ did a quick tease about the Phanny II.

the LEI looks like the rest but some of the PL concepts have been applied.

its doing wonders on the kite surf race course right now.

most of the dealers do have full information packets now, so do inquire with your local PL dealer.

can't wait for my FURY UL 19m for snow kiting. yeppie!!!

DAKITEZ - 21-12-2011 at 01:17 PM

so can we officially "spill the beans" now Rip?

AD72 - 21-12-2011 at 01:48 PM

Yes that image of the 3 kites lined up was my 1st impression having a quick peek while at work.
I would like to see some detail photos of how the 1 pump system is implemented, canopy reinforced and bridle lines managed.
Spill them beans. How does it fly? Most interested in racing with the Aguera.

flyjump - 21-12-2011 at 02:46 PM

Theres some cool stuff this year

Feyd - 21-12-2011 at 04:08 PM

I was told this morning that the beans could be spilled.

Speaking of new stuff for 2012 I have a little secret weapon inbound. I'd like to put it head to head with Ricardo's Fury UL 19.
;-)

Goin' Green.

BeamerBob - 21-12-2011 at 04:12 PM

the dealer pack said to keep quiet till the 21st release. It's all fair game now.

DAKITEZ - 21-12-2011 at 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
the dealer pack said to keep quiet till the 21st release. It's all fair game now.

Do we have a new kite shop in vegas area? Beaver~N~Kites

BeamerBob - 21-12-2011 at 05:03 PM

Coastal Wind Sports went coast to coast when I moved from Georgia. :lol:

I get none of the shipping or ordering chores, and none of the profits, but I do get to stay informed.

ripsessionkites - 21-12-2011 at 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DAKITEZ

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
the dealer pack said to keep quiet till the 21st release. It's all fair game now.

Do we have a new kite shop in vegas area? Beaver~N~Kites

well played

ill let the dealers speak up. I'm sure they can attract more sales this way and get some pre-orders going.

rtz - 21-12-2011 at 06:15 PM

Any close up pics of the kites? Any design details about the construction or materials? What sets these kites apart from other kites on the market? Prices? Anyone have a production kite yet? Is the pump any different?

flyjump - 21-12-2011 at 06:28 PM

Black and green = wow Feyd if you are getting one of those I want one too.

Todd - 21-12-2011 at 07:33 PM

So do I from what Adam has told me! Currently on the road right now with limited cell, I want to see some green!!!

Houston AirHead - 21-12-2011 at 09:03 PM

i love lei

kitedelight - 22-12-2011 at 12:24 AM

very cool! Hope PL does well in the LEI market.

very interested to hear some reviews.

anyone else find those wheel charts unusual? I get it in the end, but at first glance it is a bit odd, almost misleading. Mainly cause of the extra boxes around the edge making it uneven, and also the area of the rating not looking equal to the actual amount of boxes. Ie, the boxes get bigger as they go out, so that 10/10 looks significantly bigger than 7/10....7/10 almost seems like 5/10 from a first glance.

Anyone else seeing in that way? The chart is definitely not doing the escape any favors, especially in terms of jumping, at least how I am seeing it.

Feyd - 22-12-2011 at 05:40 AM

@ RTZ http://peterlynn.com/products/lei-tubekites/escape/features/

As much as I dig the green color of the Escape I am not getting one. :smilegrin:

I had trouble with the charts at first. I've used charts like that before but it still took a little bit of focus.

PHREERIDER - 22-12-2011 at 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kitedelight
very cool! Hope PL does well in the LEI market.

very interested to hear some reviews.

anyone else find those wheel charts unusual? I get it in the end, but at first glance it is a bit odd, almost misleading. Mainly cause of the extra boxes around the edge making it uneven, and also the area of the rating not looking equal to the actual amount of boxes. Ie, the boxes get bigger as they go out, so that 10/10 looks significantly bigger than 7/10....7/10 almost seems like 5/10 from a first glance.

Anyone else seeing in that way? The chart is definitely not doing the escape any favors, especially in terms of jumping, at least how I am seeing it.

same here , i have seen same with boards. not sure about .

i could use a little more info ..19m tube wow ,back to the future.

Bladerunner - 22-12-2011 at 08:52 AM

Is weight not key when it comes to ultra light wind riding ?

I am very interested in how the 19 will weigh in next to a 19m SA delux?

I can hear it now .... This kite rocks in low wind. At TEN mph I can do this and that high and fast !

I want a kite that somebody says at FIVE mph I am lit up and can do this and that!

:duh:

erratic winds - 22-12-2011 at 09:14 AM

http://peterlynn.com/products/all-kites/ Doesn't list the LEI's....webmaster asleep at the wheel? Gotta get there via the "news/related stories" page.

Wonder who won the "name the kite" contest?

They look pretty sweet, definitely looking to find out more about the Fury19. Last year on the final day of the Dillon Snowkite Open, the only things in the air were Slingshot Turbine17 and Ozone Zephyr17....

lad - 22-12-2011 at 09:22 AM

Not to be the pooh-pooher here: :bird:
but didn't PL hint that they wanted to offer LEIs to let their dealers have have this option for customers?
(and compete with other kite maker's offerings?)

Are they really bringing something new to the LEI table?
(I see buggying is not rated on the wheel charts)

But - I actually like their designs and colors a lot better than all the cartoony "filigree" on other surf kites.

Feyd - 22-12-2011 at 11:48 AM

I'm not a buggy guy but I've never seen any pix of buggy/inflato riding. Does it happen often?

ragden - 22-12-2011 at 12:15 PM

I've seen people buggy with an LEI. Heck, I've even done it myself. However, it is not something I see too often...

stetson05 - 22-12-2011 at 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
Is weight not key when it comes to ultra light wind riding ?

I am very interested in how the 19 will weigh in next to a 19m SA delux?

I can hear it now .... This kite rocks in low wind. At TEN mph I can do this and that high and fast !

I want a kite that somebody says at FIVE mph I am lit up and can do this and that!

:duh:

I have a 28m paraglider and when flown like a kite in 5mph I am pretty lit up!!! :smilegrin:

I keep thinking about seeing if powerzone can rig it as a depower.

Kamikuza - 23-12-2011 at 02:15 AM

Sweet!
I actually weighed my S3 21 for the trip to NZ - I think it was 6.0kg with the bar and bag and 3.8 with just the kite/bar and no bag ... I might be wrong though :D

Kamikuza - 23-12-2011 at 02:27 AM

I like the graphics too, very nice - simple but interesting enough.

Nav bar is the same as the one we have now???

labrat - 23-12-2011 at 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza
Nav bar is the same as the one we have now???

This was posted on the website, but I was unable to find actual details.

Navigator SL and TS

As the Navigator SL and TS have different line-setups, make sure you choose the right bar system. The Navigator SL is setup for Supported Leading edge (LEI) kites, the Navigator TS for Twinskins kites.

Feyd - 23-12-2011 at 06:06 AM

Originally I thought that weight played a huge part in the abilty of a light wind kite. And it obviously does or Flysurfer's SA's wouldn't be so popular.

That said, I think there may be some kind of "tipping point". I say this because my 24m+ "Big Blue" pulls and flies as well if not better in light wind as Molly's 19m Psycho 4 SA. The Flysurfer will out turn Blue but for light wind cruising it definately pulls better.

Last year at the Mille Lacs Kite Crossing I used Rudeboy's 24m Syn to win that race. Watch the footage, there wasn't squat for wind. It wasn't easy and I had to work the hell out of that Syn but she did a good job.

Both of these kites have regular fabric and the weight of the spars. Maybe there is a point where a kite gets too big and heavy to be a lightwind kite and tips into "Fat kid's kite" territory but if you continue to make it bigger, depending on the design, maybe some kites tip back into "light wind" territory? Perhaps not super efficient but good enough to get you out and about. On water it is probably different.

rtz - 23-12-2011 at 11:31 AM

I think some of the current "light wind" kites are "small"; hence needing to be lightweight. When you have a 15m Epic Infinity vs's those 24m kites for example. North Dyno's and Blade Fat Lady's.

joedy - 23-12-2011 at 03:01 PM

(SIGH)

Yet another dismal "Me-Too" LEI to saturate the market.

Why bother? I don't see anything the PL has proposed that is any better or different than Best, Cabrinha, RRD, North, Liquid Force, Ozone, Royal, etc...

-joedy

PHREERIDER - 23-12-2011 at 04:06 PM

higher AR in depower group would be nice and thats what they have done.

like older c-kites but with DEPOWER. definitely unique. will find its way into race no problem !

Kamikuza - 23-12-2011 at 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by joedy
(SIGH)

Yet another dismal "Me-Too" LEI to saturate the market.

Why bother? I don't see anything the PL has proposed that is any better or different than Best, Cabrinha, RRD, North, Liquid Force, Ozone, Royal, etc...

-joedy

Shame on you!

Why did Lamborghini, Sony or Honda bother? Much better than we all drive Fords, listen to Marconi wireless and ride HarleyDavidsons, you think?

:no:

Kamikuza - 23-12-2011 at 05:14 PM

.

Kamikuza - 23-12-2011 at 05:14 PM

stupid Machintosh triple-posting bag of poo ... this never happens on Windows :D

shaggs2riches - 23-12-2011 at 05:57 PM

wow triple threat post. lol I really can't wait to see real normal person reviews on these kites. Maybe another option when I go looking for a nine meter next summer. Its definitely a flooded market, but with Peter Lynn's history I bet they can bring something different to the table.

Feyd - 23-12-2011 at 07:42 PM

Quote:

I dunno, I've heard a lot of good things about these kites. I've never had much interest in riding an LEI but I will say I'm intrigued. I agree on the surface it does seem like just another LEI in a pretty broad LEI market. I would try one out before I assume it's just another "flavor of the week".

I have faith in Pepijn and his kite building ability. I don't think these LEIs are "run of the mill".

Hopefully they will be made available for demo. Maybe someone could coordinate that?

Vince H. - 24-12-2011 at 09:19 AM

Someone asked about the name the kite contest winners:

First to third:

Lou Pil (kite of choice winner)
Graham Grattam Curtis
Jolly Good

kitedelight - 25-12-2011 at 10:13 PM

"Yet another dismal "Me-Too" LEI to saturate the market.

Why bother?"

well, that's what ozone could have said, I think it worked out pretty well for them, and they brought some different stuff to the table, like the c4.

and, hey, more people working on the same stuff brings better product at the end of the day, I'm definitely game for a competent and proven company like PL giving their hand at LEI's.

bigkahuna - 26-12-2011 at 04:34 AM

I'm sure the decision to build inflatos was more of an economic decision than anything else. I would bet that inflato buyers outnumber foil buyers by at least 100 to 1 and more likely 1000 to 1. A well designed and built inflato is hard to beat. Modern inflatos are stable, turn fast, and have huge depower and range. Although they may not last as long as a good foil, if well cared for will easily last 4-5 years of frequent use (mine have). And production costs for inflatos are cheap. Probably less than half of what it costs to build a good foil. Not a whole lot of reasons to buy a foil over an inflato and a lot fewer reasons to build and sell them. Face it, the Peter Lynn Arc market has shrunk over the years and they probably needed to do something to generate income or pull the plug and go out of business. Although I'm encouraged to see they are offering larger sizes (not many companies do any more) I'm sad to see their graphics are pretty lame by 2011/2012 standards. Not ugly, but not exactly beautiful either.

herc - 26-12-2011 at 07:19 AM

the hopefully outstanding product might be the 19 sqm fury ultralite ! if it is really ultralite, than it might be way better than all the other lightwindkites (that are all not really light weight).

currently i think the "winner" is the north dyno 18 sqm. it is told to have a very high AR and ver efficient profile.

lets hope the PL Fury 19 ultralite will beat it !

btw, kite weight does not influence light wind power... the (park-n-ride) power generated just depends on the area and the qualities of the profile...

but the weight plays a very important role regarding handling !

last january, i was snowkiting, i took all my gear with me, including the ozone zephyr 17. when we did face really weak winds, i tried to launch the zephyr and was f*cked. that big fat heavy thing was unable to launch! i was running backwards like stupid.. that thing lifted, and before i could turn it to make a power dive, it just front-stalled. thats the sad truth about LEI's in very light wind: they just drop out of the sky if you dont watch them permanently. but with my 7.7 sqm peter lynn twister i was riding in seconds! just unwind lines, lay it out and pump it up. turn it and go ! nothing beats the ease of handling of a lightweight foil.

i think it would be possible to build a real light weight tube kite. but it has to be less robust. the tubes must be made out of thinner cloth, there must be more bridles to support the leading edge, maybe also some bridles on the struts (like with those ultra-flat genetrix tube kites? http://www.genetrixkites.fr/)
but then.. you could as well just build a lightwind depower foil kite !
btw - wasnt also a depower foil by PL announced ? when will those hit the market ?

bigkahuna - 26-12-2011 at 09:19 AM

The best lightwind kite I've flown is still the Best Waroo 20m. Better than any other 20m I've ever owned, including a Flysurfer Speed2 19. But they aren't made any longer and are hard to find. I still have mine if anyone wants to come to the Banks and prove me wrong.

geokite - 26-12-2011 at 12:51 PM

One thing to keep in mind regarding lowest wind speed to ks in, it's not about pull of the kite. As someone in this thread posted, a paraglider will pull like crazy in 5mph of wind. But will it have the speed to keep you on top of the water? For instance, a freight train moving slowly will certainly pull any of us through the water, but it would have to be moving forward fast enough to get someone on a plane to be of use.

shaggs2riches - 26-12-2011 at 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkahuna
I'm sure the decision to build inflatos was more of an economic decision than anything else. I would bet that inflato buyers outnumber foil buyers by at least 100 to 1 and more likely 1000 to 1. A well designed and built inflato is hard to beat. Modern inflatos are stable, turn fast, and have huge depower and range. Although they may not last as long as a good foil, if well cared for will easily last 4-5 years of frequent use (mine have). And production costs for inflatos are cheap. Probably less than half of what it costs to build a good foil. Not a whole lot of reasons to buy a foil over an inflato and a lot fewer reasons to build and sell them. Face it, the Peter Lynn Arc market has shrunk over the years and they probably needed to do something to generate income or pull the plug and go out of business. Although I'm encouraged to see they are offering larger sizes (not many companies do any more) I'm sad to see their graphics are pretty lame by 2011/2012 standards. Not ugly, but not exactly beautiful either.

Kiteboarding is just one avenue for Peter Lynn, his kite company has been around a lot longer than the sport. I don't think you are wrong by saying that it was an economical decision to enter the LEI market. I also don't think that they needed to enter it either. Arcs are probably a bigger seller than we might think. Just cause we don't see them everywhere we go doesn't mean that they don't sell a lot of product. They also are a major manufacturer of fixed bridle race foils. I bet there are wayyyyy more landkiters out there than water kiters because not everyone has access to a lake or ocean. I'm also willing to put my money on it that the foils market is just as big as the inflatable market. Lei are just marketed so much that we are lead to believe they are the only thing selling. In the picture of things if you mentioned kiteboarding/powerkiting most people would only think water and being in a tropical destination. I actually had someone tell me I was doing it wrong when landboarding because they only believed that kiting was a water sport.

krumly - 26-12-2011 at 06:22 PM

If they can figure out how to make a LEI that gets the cg back far enough to make them autozenith, that would be a feat. Or one that can be reverse launched like a foil.

krumly

kitedelight - 26-12-2011 at 10:37 PM

"I bet there are wayyyyy more landkiters out there than water kiters because not everyone has access to a lake or ocean"

It would be pretty interesting to see the stats, but I would think its the opposite - lots of guys still use LEI for land too.
Didn't someone give some stats for Ozone a while back that suggests that LEI sales outnumbers foil sales by multiples?

lad - 26-12-2011 at 11:07 PM

"Didn't someone give some stats for Ozone a while back that suggests that LEI sales outnumbers foil sales by multiples?"

If you're only counting power kites, maybe.
But if you're also counting sport kite foils...?

One thing about new LEIs is that they're fairly expensive. So they can be more advertised. Retailers can set up brick n' mortar shops in good locations because it's almost like a low-scale auto dealership with new models each season.

We need to take this question to a Higher Authority and invoke the Sofa King once more! :smilegrin:

(Or if he's not available, the Hooj wealthyone Himself!) :shocked2:

ripsessionkites - 27-12-2011 at 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by herc

btw - wasnt also a depower foil by PL announced ? when will those hit the market ?

yes

xplore - 4.0m learner / trainer snow

lynx - 5.0, 7.0, 9.0, and 11.0m

herc - 27-12-2011 at 02:05 AM

lets hope the choice of the name "lynx" is not a bad omen ;-) (do you remember the first color handheld console called lynx? that was pretty awesome, but failed big time regarding sales.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Lynx )

anyway - i am much more looking forward to a 11 sqm lynx than the tubes. (still very curious about the 19 ultralite)
hope the big lynx for lightwind will have a high AR, while the small lynx will have low ar for stability !

ripsessionkites - 27-12-2011 at 05:09 AM

It's the intermiate one for now @ AR 3.6m

-mj- - 29-12-2011 at 02:35 AM

He he, no Photoshop for the three lined up kites, aside from the artwork & logo's anyways.
Just a coordinated start and a photographer that timed his shot right :D
Wanted to post original pic but dunno how...

AD72 - 29-12-2011 at 01:48 PM

MJ do you have some insights to share about the Fury flying characteristics that you like the most about it? Also what things that make it a unique LEI because it is a PL development?

tridude - 30-12-2011 at 01:43 PM

good looking kites..................not to be critical but alot of you are saying just another LEI but how many of you really have flown enough LEIs and have the water experience to make those comparisons..................... :lol:

:duh:

-mj- - 3-1-2012 at 07:48 AM

AD72, I've flown the proto's and the odd tube from other manufacturers but as a foil addict I really do not have enough LEI experience to make educated comments on characteristics.

Really need to go and fly more tubes now...

Houston AirHead - 3-1-2012 at 08:07 AM

I have to second BigK. The 20 waroo is a crazy machine. i got a buddy who flew one if wind was 6mph or 25mph! lol

tridude - 3-1-2012 at 08:54 AM

Big K,

as long as your pumpin Ill drive up in the spring and give your 20 a goer....................... :lol:

:duh::duh:

herc - 6-1-2012 at 02:37 PM

sad news: the prices for the PL tubes are as high or even higher than other tubekitebrands..

according to this website:

http://tubekites.se/
(maybe prices are generally higher in sweden?)

is this a good strategy ? should prices be a bit lower if a newbie enters the market ? or should prices on par with established HQ brands like ozone ? sure, if prices are too low, customers might suspect low quality.. but i got my ozone zephyr kite only for 900 euro. the fury 17 lite will cost 1389 - even with 20% discount that is 1111 euro..

Kamikuza - 6-1-2012 at 02:58 PM

900 full RRP or deal on a site somewhere?
I think the Fury Lite should be compared to a Crossbow 16 LW or similar specialist kite ...

FWIW an Epic Infinity costs exactly the same and is only 14m or something :D

herc - 6-1-2012 at 03:46 PM

as far as i remember, the 900 euro for the zephyr was list price minus 10% . that is the usual discount you get for ozone products in germany.

yeah, the PL tubes are in the "usual" price range of todays tubekites. yet i think that todays prices for tubes are a joke.

for around 1500 euro you get 17 sqm paragliders ( swing hybrid sport for example ) that are masterpieces in terms of precisition, robustness ( 8 G load tested) and quality; and are for sure much harder to produce !

herc - 6-1-2012 at 03:48 PM

test

herc - 6-1-2012 at 03:50 PM

(sorry if double-post - forum has spooky behaviour currently?)

as far as i remember, the 900 euro for the zephyr was list price minus 10% . that is the usual discount you get for ozone products in germany.

yeah, the PL tubes are in the "usual" price range of todays tubekites. yet i think that todays prices for tubes are a joke.

for around 1500 euro you get 17 sqm paragliders ( swing hybrid sport for example ) that are masterpieces in terms of precisition, robustness ( 8 G load tested) and quality; and are for sure much harder to produce !

Kamikuza - 7-1-2012 at 05:53 PM

True. But different material involved ... I think economies of scale come into play there ...?
All kite prices are quite high, you're right!

geokite - 12-1-2012 at 04:48 PM

Someone is smoking to much to price these kites this much. $2200 for the 19m Fury Light? I'll erase it from my list of potential kites to get for light wind San Diego. Don't Flysurfers go for about that much??

Kamikuza - 12-1-2012 at 05:32 PM

Heck no!
Check out the RRP of light wind specific big ol' LEIs... they're not cheap by a long shot. I think the price is right on the money, so to speak...

We here have been spoiled by great deals from our kiting brothers :lol:

look at the RRP here for the big kites - and they aren't even the Dyno!
http://www.kite-line.com/kiteboardingkites/north

Feyd - 12-1-2012 at 05:49 PM

Wait a minute here. Geo, are you saying that the Peter Lynns are in some way less valuable than a FLysurfer?

Man that just stings.

Kami is right tho. You want a performance light wind kite, it isn't going to be free.

geokite - 13-1-2012 at 11:37 AM

Understood it isn't going to be free. But considering they are made by low wage labor, of relatively simply materials, less sewing than an arc, and the design stands on the shoulders of others, they seem a bit overpriced. As do many of the LEI kites. And they will last as long as an arc. And all that other stuff...

But to each their own. Guess there is a market for them, or they wouldn't be priced as they are.

BeamerBob - 13-1-2012 at 11:46 AM

It's expensive to get a kite to market considering prototypes, tweaks, all the R&D expense to get it right. These kites were started from scratch so it cost some money to get it all together. The final pricing is poised to balance demand with supply, and to position the kite amongst it's peers in the market. The proof is in the pudding when they either storm the market because they are so great or just piddle around because there isn't any reason to choose them over what's already out there.

geokite - 13-1-2012 at 12:40 PM

The program that is licensed by Legaignoux to all the LEI kite makers would make the statement "started from scratch" a little misleading. The profile, aspect ratio, tube size, etc, can all be tweaked from the program from what I've heard. And just looking at the current market of kites would certainly have helped. I don't know how anyone could make a kite, any kite, from scratch.

Pricing a kite to appear to be as good as other overpriced kites is marketing, I suppose. But it doesn't make the kite any better.

It may be a great kite and well worth the money. Time will tell.

herc - 14-1-2012 at 12:03 AM

if they are clever, they allow dealers to give huge "introduction" discounts to customers for the tubes...

bigkahuna - 14-1-2012 at 03:56 AM

Looks like $2000+ is the going price for most new 2012 kites. Might be time to give a Griffin a try, saw them listed for $1200 complete.

BeamerBob - 16-1-2012 at 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by geokite
The program that is licensed by Legaignoux to all the LEI kite makers would make the statement "started from scratch" a little misleading. The profile, aspect ratio, tube size, etc, can all be tweaked from the program from what I've heard. And just looking at the current market of kites would certainly have helped. I don't know how anyone could make a kite, any kite, from scratch.

Pricing a kite to appear to be as good as other overpriced kites is marketing, I suppose. But it doesn't make the kite any better.

It may be a great kite and well worth the money. Time will tell.

By "from scratch" I mean they don't have a current model in house. No designs to work from other than looking at what competitors have done. I'm sure they started by looking at what was available and deciding what the design parameters were going to be and then go into design with an image of what the kite would look like.

If you price your product high, it has to back up the price with performance that makes it worthy. Time will tell for sure.

tridude - 16-1-2012 at 05:21 PM

Nav bar with front line safety drops my Wainman, Ovando, and Waroo with no issues (last years setup purchased from Chudaliscious). I had a new depower pilot on it Saturday @ OOBE and he had no issues with deploying, reconncet and relaunch............................

shaggs2riches - 16-1-2012 at 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkahuna
Looks like $2000+ is the going price for most new 2012 kites. Might be time to give a Griffin a try, saw them listed for $1200 complete.

:shocked2: $2000 is nuts wow so much for my dreams of making my 9m inflato a brand new model. I'll stick to buying year end blow outs and new to me's off the for sale section. If I was spending 2k or more it would be on a flysurfer and that's about it me thinks.

Feyd - 16-1-2012 at 08:59 PM

In addition to having to cover the R&D and startup costs for new product introduction I wonder if there is some consideration for buyer perception taken into acct. here.

If the kite is priced too low it may be percieved as a buget product. Probably not how you want your newest high performance product looked at. We can compare these things to whatever kites we like. We can take into acct that they are being pruduced by cheap labor etc. but lets face it, new kites are expensive. High end or low end and it doesn't matter who makes them.

It's too bad because it puts this sport out of the reach of a lot of people that don't have much money. Especially kids and if you can't get kids into it you'll never see any susbstantial growth.

Kamikuza - 16-1-2012 at 09:17 PM

If you're prepared to wait for end-of-season sales, you won't ever pay RRP. There's always deals to be had... pick up a near new kite off one of the early-adopters who just HAS to have a brand new kite every year, for example.

As for pricing the sport out of the realms of trailer trash - I have no problem with that :piggy:

Feyd - 17-1-2012 at 04:56 AM

True. There are always going to be those with expendable income that will buy the latetest/greatest and then dump it for the next year's version. If you're lucky enough to find someone like that then you're golden.

Trash doesn't just live in trailers Kami. Trash is a state of mind and I know plenty of people who are trash but have money. Sometimes the difference between you and someone who has no money and is forced to live in squaller is just a little luck.

I'm concerned about people like myself with moderate incomes being able to afford it. Or is it better to simply price the sport into stagnation? Keep it such a narrow market and sales so low that the prices will always be through the roof? I don't think so.

Then again maybe you're right Kami. Maybe we should keep kites out of the hands of the those with low income. While we're at it let's keep them out of the hands of minorities, women and children too.

Kamikuza - 17-1-2012 at 05:04 AM

Trailer trash is a generic term in New Zealandish for that state of mind you describe and IMHO usually means they have more means at their disposable than they do brain cells

think - jet ski riders.

I'm pretty sure the price is what it costs - there's minimal effects from economies of scale and the goodies lust, cool factor and ease of pose-factor just isn't there in this sport to draw in huge numbers... you actually have to put in a lot of hours to get be just a beginner! That tends to scare of the Blackberry/iPhone knobs who can be instant heros with the latest $1,000 phone and no outlay of sweat, blood and swear words.

It's a good and a bad thing... be nice to have cheaper gear, but it's great being able to do something a bit special... like, not riding a Japanese motorbike :D

bigkahuna - 17-1-2012 at 05:19 AM

"If the kite is priced too low it may be percieved as a buget product."
I think if we were talking about a list price of $100 that argument might make sense, but the cheapest new kite I've found lists for around $1,200. Even that's not exactly cheap. Having spent a bit of time in the kite industry I can tell you that these kite manufacturers operate with huge margins. Ignore the claims about how expensive technology and research are, that's just a smoke screen. They're making huge profits and with these new prices stand to make even more.

Feyd - 17-1-2012 at 06:55 AM

I haven't spent any time in the kite industry but I've been selling skis and bikes at some level for tha past 20 yrs and one thing I've found is that often if something is priced "too low" the perception is that it's is not as good and sales suffer as a result. People don't like the perception of buying a buget product, some people need to pay more to feel good about the purchase and the product. Especially people with disposable income.

If another kite is built to the same specs as a Flysurfer Speed 3 SA for example, and it costs 1/3 the price ( in know you couldn't produce that kite at 1/3 $) most would be suspicious of it's quality. Only those who have to really watch thier spending would be willing to take a chance on that purchase.

If the manufactures are in fact making high margins, which I'm not entirely convinced they are, then they are doing it at the expense of dealers because I'm pretty sure that the dealers aren't making high margins. If they were they're would be more dealers and more of the existing dealers would have kite sales as thier sole source of income.

Realistically high margin is a relative term. If one is used to making a 18-25% margin (which is what some high end bike product fetches on a good day for example) then a 30-40% margin would be considered high. Most margins are made on support product like spare parts etc. that have a low cost but can be sold at a premium. Usually 50 -60% margin or more depending on what the local market will bear.

A

bigkahuna - 17-1-2012 at 07:30 AM

"...one thing I've found is that often if something is priced "too low" the perception is that it's is not as good and sales suffer as a result."

Nonsense. For every Richie Rich who believes that there are 1,000+ bargain shoppers who go for the better price. Just try standing in front of Walmart sometime and tell me I'm wrong. The reason Best Kites even got on the map was because they sold at a lower price than anyone else.

"If the manufactures are in fact making high margins, which I'm not entirely convinced they are, then they are doing it at the expense of dealers because I'm pretty sure that the dealers aren't making high margins."

Yup, you hit the nail on the preverbal head. From kite factory to consumer, the dealers have the smallest margins and they stand to loose the most when they have to discount their prices (which they often do).

It wasn't more than a couple years ago that any kite on the market could be had for $1,200 complete. Then it went up to $1,500, now it's more like $2,000-2,200. Any idea what it costs per kite in China (at one time I considered launching my own line of kites)? Try $50. I'm talking about inflatos, now Flysurfers are a different product and a different market. Same goes, but to a lesser degree, for Peter Lynns. But inflato kites are dirt cheap to manufacture in China.

Feyd - 17-1-2012 at 09:04 AM

Outfits like Wally World, Home Depot and all the other monsters have enough clout that they can got to the manufature and have things made up to thier specs. The product purchased in those store are sold cheaper often because they're cheaper quality. Sure, most average consumers are going to purchase from them.

But I would say that most people purchasing new kites are not your average consumer.

Sure Best got where they are now by being the budget kite brand. And the perception as I see it is that for a lot of people they are still considered the Budget brand inspite of the fact that you can probably pay almost 2k for a large version of thier upper end product. Do I think being a budget brand is a bad thing? Not really, it depends on where you want to be placed in the market. Does it make it a bad kite? No. Love them or hate them Best is what it is because they were agressive with thier pricing and marketing.

But if you are introducing a product and want it looked at as a premium item you are going to have to list it at a premium price. I guess is the bottom line. If you arer introducing a begginer/entry level kite then it should be priced accordingly.

I guess the only route is to take the dealers out of the equation then. Look at Switch for example. They are selling direct to consumers at half what Best or Slingshot etc. are. At $50 bucks produstion a kite by your estimate they are making a killing without the hassle of managing a dealer network and the time/cost associated with it. Is the where the industry is going? I don't know. Will thier foils be priced the same way? Like you said, different market.

If Switch's product is as good as anyone else's out there they are where Best was a few years ago I assume. Unless they produce something radical in design that puts the apart form other kites. But that would take a fair amount of R&D which takes time and resources. That will cause thier prices to go up as well.

I guess the success or failure of Manufacturer direct is as always going to depend on customer service and support. It seems like many do well intitially until the customer base becomes too big to manage and things collapse. If they can provide good customer service long term then they will be fine, but it's hard to do that as a manufacturer to consumers. It very rarely works out but who knows? Even at Switch prices kiting is a pricey sport for some.

Now if you want to talk about high margins for Chinese made product I have three words "Wicker-bike-baskets". Seriously, they can be had for almost nothing more than the cost of getting a container shipped in.

Anyway this has gotten waaaaaaaaaay off topic. What I want to know is has anyone bought or demoed a new Fury yet? I want to hear what consumer impressions are.

Kamikuza - 17-1-2012 at 05:30 PM

We all know that the 6-pack of socks you just bought for $10 actually only cost 75 cents to make in Indonesia... but that's not all the cost involved in bringing the product to market.

For the kites, I bet there's a huge outlay in hardware for manufacture, setting up a line & distribution network, hooking up with suppliers etc etc - so while the cost per unit may 'seem' low and the mark-up large, I bet there's a lot of hidden costs that a retailer doesn't see...

I could be wrong of course

BeamerBob - 17-1-2012 at 05:52 PM

Someone mentioned margins earlier. All MFRs don't treat their retailers the same by a long shot. Some really take care of their dealers and make sure that their lifeline with the retail customers has a fair margin in it, which they earn by taking their time meeting with customers and answering their phone calls and emails along with covering fixed costs of operating their business and cost of having inventory to meet customer needs. Other MFRs act like they are doing the dealers a favor by letting them carry their products and when you see a price decrease in retail that might've just been off the profit margin that the dealer was using to pay his bills with. Add to that how some MFRs actually compete directly with their dealers without any means to offer support to the customer and you see how very different each company can be.

Bladerunner - 17-1-2012 at 06:15 PM

Interesting .

I know when I am approached by people that are interested in the sport the real interested ones ask how much it costs to get set up to go. If I simply tell them the retail price of gear you can see the sticker shock hit them like a bomb ! When I explain that quality second hand gear can be had at about 1/2 the cost I see some coming around but all too often you see the interest is gone.

I was pleasently surprised to see that the majority of people in the sport ( back in 2004 ) were OG. I realized it was due to the cost of getting started. When second hand kites got too cheap I noticed a lot of young Cowboys buying the wrong gear and going out without instruction . The result was beach closures and a bad reputation. Now that old kites can be picked up on ebay for $100 keeping new kite costs unreasonably high doesn't keep the Cowboys from giving it a try. So much for the only reason I can see to charge so much.

I agree. If they could sell kites for $800 - $1200 new a few years ago there is little to convince me manufacturing costs have almost doubled ?

Best is a good example of a company that tried to come in with new ideas and lower costs beating the bad press with good product and winning. You don't have to price your gear out of reach of the commmon man to win a loyal following!

HQ is another company that I respect for winning over the market with quality product at a competetive price.

Unfortunately I have the same reaction to the pricing as others . My budget dictates that I wait and see if the LEI becomes a must have kite for me and then I will only be able to afford second hand. Pretty much how I sit with Flysurfer.

dave brown - 17-1-2012 at 06:58 PM

I can get a 15m Charger complete for $1500.. a 13m Fury complete for $1923
I would think that it would cost a bunch more to make a Twinskin
Is there more hidden costs with getting a tube kite to market? More R&D for the tubes vs. the charger?

I love my Arcs and PeterLynn is a great company that makes good products but in the LEI world
they are the new guys.. I bet the kites are far from perfect.

If I was going to spend $1900 on a new LEI it would be from a company that been around for a while, not the new guy..
If I want to go with the new guy I can get a 14m Switch Nitro complete for $1035.. $900 less

I think the PL kites need to be priced in line with the new guys not the
best.. I can get a new Ocean Rodeo Rise for less.

Buy a new PL Tube.....
Not a chance

Flyfish - 17-1-2012 at 07:20 PM

Hi,
I'm new to this Forum, but thought I'd give my 2 cents.
I've always ridden cheap second hand kites because I ride in the waves and have trashed my share of equipment (goes back to my days as a windsurfer - Waves always win). At any rate, I'm always looking for good prices. This led me to learn that Kahoona is right. The kites really only cost a hundred or maybe two hundred at the most to produce in China. A Chinease factory that produces "known" kite brands quickly "learns" about kites. They then produce thier own "design" and sell them for about $200 if you buy 10 or more of them. They will put what ever logo you want on them also. So there it is... if you want to start a kite company, just contact a factory over there and your off!
I'm not saying ANYTHING about the PL LEI's!
Obviously R&D is the big question, all costs go from there!
As far as Priceing high to seem better quality...
Yea, what ever!!!!!!!!

shaggs2riches - 17-1-2012 at 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
HQ is another company that I respect for winning over the market with quality product at a competetive price.

Helping a friend get his first kite and really was blown away at how well priced a 2012 HQ foil really is. A brand spanking new 10meter Apex 3 is at least $500 or better cheaper than a 10m access. I would think the quality to be just as good in today's world. At least that is what all the reviews were telling me. :thumbup:

bigkahuna - 18-1-2012 at 04:27 AM

@Feyd - I think you missed my point about Walmart shoppers, it was meant to illustrate the buying tendencies of the vast majority of consumers. Even on this forum, for every kiter here who is willing to spend $2200 for a kite there are at least 10 who would rather spend $1000 or less, regardless of the label or name on it.

@BeamerBob - Your post is spot on.

I personally think Peter Lynn's marketing strategy for their new LEI's is flawed: there's simply no compelling reason to buy their kite versus someone else's. Yes, there is a small community of die hard Peter Lynn advocates, but how many of them will switch over to LEI's especially when the Peter Lynn branded LEI offers nothing significantly better than the other LEI's? It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I wish them the best of luck but I suspect their venture into the inflato world may be short lived.

Kamikuza - 18-1-2012 at 05:09 AM

Personally, I have no idea what the PL strategy or bottom line is and so am only making general comments.

@Flyfish - if I'd poured money into a firm to set up manufacturing and those bastards were using my line to sell budget product, they'd be in court so fast their feet wouldn't touch the ground. And as a customer, I won't support those buggers for the same reason.

True, I'd rather not spend $2k on a kite... but look at my cost per session for the S3 21 - it's the 'cheapest' kite I own. I bet most of us get a bloody long time of use out of our gear too - it's an investment for the future, as it were...
There's a lot of people with spare money around and there's a lot of us who benefit from their sell-offs too. The cost is a moot point IMO cos gear is not PROHIBITIVELY expensive... just more expensive than other sports.

geokite - 18-1-2012 at 02:17 PM

How odd, page 4 of this thread looks like page 1.

Edit: Ok, that's better...

Flyfish - 18-1-2012 at 06:21 PM

Kami, I'm just affirming what Kahoona said. The kites don't cost that much to make!
Check out the 10 person tent I can buy for $124!

Ozark Trail Ozark Trail10-person 3-Room XL Camping Tent, 20' x 11'
$124 online

207 reviews #2 in Tents 3 Room - Ozark Trail - Camping - 10 Person
Have fun camping with the whole family in the Ozark Trail 10-Person 3-Room XL Camping Tent. This 3-room family tent offers privacy and allows up to ten people to sleep inside it. Each room can accommodate a queen-sized air mattress and plenty of space to spare for gear. The 2 removable room dividers create 3 rooms with zippered double doors. The weather armor prevents leaks and moisture, thus keeping you and your family dry and comfortable. The easy-assembly design gets campsite setup out of

erratic winds - 18-1-2012 at 06:28 PM

FlyFish, that's kind of like saying "I don't know why a tailored suit is so pricey, I can buy tube socks at wal mart for $4."...it's not an analogy that works.

joedy - 18-1-2012 at 06:44 PM

I still fail to see what purchasers of these PL LEIs are getting in consideration of the high price point. Sure, there's a few changes, but nothing that stands out that much apart from the other LEI kites on the market.

Take the HQ Matrixx or Flysurfer Speeds: these kites offer the convenience of a kite that is easy to travel with, doesn't need a pump, will never have a leaking bladder, offers a wide wind range and will have a higher re-sell value. To me, these are features that make them stand apart.

I still don't see anything that revolutionary with the PL LEI. At least they could have attempted to think outside of the box like Dimitri has done with the Epic Infinity. The Infinity is a LEI that I think has brought some good changes to the LEI world.

-joedy

shaggs2riches - 18-1-2012 at 07:00 PM

I too want to hear a customer review on these kites. Somewhere along the way the marketing team must have seen something that would justify the prices. A bad move???? Who knows, time will tell. At the end of the day they chose to put it out at those prices so we have no other choice but to buy them at that. I don't see the point in arguing about this as we have no control over it, nor do we have any experience on the kites to say whether they are worth the price tag. Its just like a person arguing that inflatables are better than foils when they have no experience on a foil to base their opinions on. We need to give Peter Lynn a chance to make their mark. Remember there are a lot of people who had no faith in arcs until they tried them.

kitedelight - 18-1-2012 at 08:45 PM

Not to belabor the issue, part of me questions the price too...but then, there are a couple reasons they might have priced themselves as high as other brands,

1) they are not a brand new kite company, compared to a company like switch for example that has to prove itself starting at zero. People know PL can make good stuff.

2) there is the logic that if you price too low, people might assume the first version is just that, a first version which doesn't deserve full price. Plus, heck, it's possible that the feedback was good enough that it's basically on par with the other kites out there to demand a market price.

3) they are committed to this LEI idea, and don't want to jack up the price for next model once they put a few refinements on it. Keeping prices set is probably much easier than starting low and raising later.

Just some thoughts. I too would love kite prices to go down, but really, I doubt the kite making business is rolling in unreasonable profits.

BeamerBob - 18-1-2012 at 08:57 PM

Part of the pricing strategy must be due to the kite's relative performance when prototypes have been used in competitions. The PL inflatos have faired well and performed strongly. If the kite has measured well against the best and most expensive, word will get out and the kites will be deemed worth the money and sell well.

Kamikuza - 18-1-2012 at 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Flyfish
Kami, I'm just affirming what Kahoona said. The kites don't cost that much to make!

Making a kite/tent might not be that expensive but setting up the 'infrastructure' is. You're not considering all the bumf needed before you get to actually cutting out the bits of nylon and sewing them together.

Unit cost does not equal production cost :thumbdown:

The RRP is another matter...

Feyd - 19-1-2012 at 08:20 AM

I don't doubt that the PL LEI is a killer wing based on what people have been saying about the prototypes and how they've been performing in competition.

Yes, it's a pricey wing and everyone want's to complain about the price based on what everthing supposedly costs and the fact that on the surface the wing looks like every other LEI out there.

Yes, ok, on the surface it looks like every other LEI. So does every other LEI. The question is DOES IT FLY LIKE EVERY OTHER LEI? I don't know.

I don't fly LEIs so I'm not even remotely qualified to make assements about what innovations the PL kite has or doesn't have or what puts it apart from other LEIs. Nor do I think there are many of us here that spend so much time either racing, riding or designing LEIs to make much of an assesment based on little more than the price and a photo.

The bottom line is the kite is only going to be worth what you as a rider are going to get out of it. If it is in fact an amazing wing but you are a mediocre rider it's not going to be worth the price tag. The same could be said about most kites I think.

But until someone can chime in about how these things actually handle based on first hand expirience I don't see the point in focusing so much on the price. The nit picking banter that has developed over this has been a complete waste of time and energy and not at all focused on anything productive. I say this as being a contributor to the nit picking.

Anyway none of this matters. If the PL LEI holds it's value like all the other LEIs seem to the price on the current release will plummet when the new models come out next year. So just ride a production season behind no big whup.:bouncy: