Power Kite Forum - Trusting Kite Killers

Trusting Kite Killers

titanflyer - 2-1-2012 at 01:32 PM

Hey everyone (sorry for the length of my rambling below).

This may seem like seriously novice talk, but I wanted to get some experts to chime in on the truth of kite killers. I know what they do, and it makes total sense to me how they do it, but are they truly as safe as the advertising suggests?

I guess my question is, if I am over my head on a kite that is either overpowering me, or a gust comes up and I have the reflex to let go fast enough before it supermans me through the air, will the kite killers work every time. I don't 100 percent trust them in case the wind catches the kite on the way down and yanks my arms off.

I have tested the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s on my small kite several times, and it always just instantly went limp and came down, but I felt like I had given up a lot of control. If the wind does inflate it somehow again, or even if it simply just becomes a parachute, those handles are out of my reach now.

If I could trust the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s 100 percent to just kill the kite every time no matter what, I would fly the Crossfire I have that scares me. I would still be smart about conditions, but I could always trust the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s as my for sure backup.

The other option I suppose is to just not wear them and to let go. Obviously that would be more expensive and possibly less safe for anyone around the area as I am sure those handles could hurt at speed and those lines are sharp when moving.

What about only wearing one? If you let go the kite can't go far, but I don't know what it would do to the kite... would it still keep flying?

I guess I am looking for some input on all of the jibber jabber above.

James

Cerebite - 2-1-2012 at 02:01 PM

If you have the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s set up// installed right they do their job.
The best location, as recommended by Angus, is at the knot where the brake lines attach to the handle leader, I prefer more "swing" in my brake range so I attach at the handle end of the brake leader.

The Physics: the foil kite is essentially just a glorified grocery sack "held" at the top and the bottom. If you let go of the top of the sack but keep hold of the bottom it will deflate and just flap in the wind.

Fly with sense and confidence.

soliver - 2-1-2012 at 02:18 PM

hey, I know you want the opinion of someone more experienced, but as for this newby, I trust mine without question, and have experienced their value.

I went the opposite direction of most and got a PL 5.6m twister iir as a first kite. I agree, it's scary as a newby with a kite that size. My thoughts were that the inland winds of metro Atlanta were small enough, and that I'd rather have a kite big enough to "grow in to" rather than start small. ... Then a gust picked me up and I totally busted arse. Thanks to the Kite killers though, I didn't end up in the middle of the major roadway adjacent to my flying spot, or half way up a tree. ... My problem was, that I waited too long to let go and let go when I was a few feet off the ground with a good deal of forward momentum ... ouch. ... ... ... Now I have an HQ 3m beamer V, and am having more fun and less trepidation, while learning.

All that being said, with my limited experience, I trust them, I just need to learn how better to time letting go.

Important things I learned from that day:

Wear a knee brace to protect an old injury,
Wear a strap on my glasses (they ended up a few feet away, and hard to find since I have really poor vision w/out them),
Get a smaller kite for higher winds

shehatesmyhobbies - 2-1-2012 at 02:26 PM

One thing I don' do when flying FB kites especially in gusty winds, is grip the handles to a point where my fingers are all the way around the handles. Do you hold your handles so that the Power lead as between your fore finger and middle finger?? Do you rest your thumb more on top of the handles rather than wrapped around the handle. That is the first thing I would do if you are wrapping your fingers all the way around the handles thus creating a grip. If you are holding them correctly a gust that would normally take you off your feet and send you scudding by way of face, would normally take the kite from your hands and allow the KK to do their job. I still fly FB kite with kite killers all the time. I have had one or two break because the winds were nuking, but they did their job anyway.

JMO

titanflyer - 2-1-2012 at 02:42 PM

Thats good advice... I have to look at my hands next time I fly, but my guess is that I have a death grip on the handles. I do put the main lines between my first and index fingers, but my thumbs I am sure are wrapped around the handle as well.

I was asking these questions because even my little 3.3 meter kind of scared me with the amount of power it had in gusts, and its probably considered a puppy dog. I let go of it a few times yesterday to test out the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s and see what would happen and it worked as designed. I just didn't like that first step into trusting the setup etc.

I think I will end up getting something much much more docile for a larger kite, like a beamer 5.0 meter or PL Twister II. It for sure has the same ability to hurt me, but at least it won't be as scary to control from what I am told.

So nobody with a comment on if the kite can power up with the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s deployed? I am interested to see if this has happened to anyone.

James

shehatesmyhobbies - 2-1-2012 at 02:48 PM

As for the kite powering back up once the KK have been deployed, I have never experienced this. It should not power up if hooked up correctly. I think if you start out in smaller winds say 8-10 mph and work your way up, you could handle that CF set on the friendly mode (not for lift) Look in the manual and make sure you have the kite set on the right setting first!. I used to have the 8m and flew it up to 12mph steady winds. That was a beast!

The gust are definitely a bad deal. If the winds are varying more than 5 or so mph. (say 10 mph winds gusting to 20) it may be time to pack up anyway as a beginner. That 's a big jump for most people with FB kites.

Hope this is helping!

rocfighter - 2-1-2012 at 03:47 PM

The only issues I ever have with KK is when I'm in the buggy. I need to develope a set that will not interfere with my wheels at speed. I also attach mine at the connection of breakline and handle lead. If you have long handles they would work right at the handle too I suppose. But I think the longer the pull the better.

shehatesmyhobbies - 2-1-2012 at 03:49 PM

Hey Dave while in the buggy, try to run the cord through the loop on the bottom of the handles then attach it to the lines , It may stay out of your way a little better! Try it first without the buggy of course to make sure it will be effective for you!

I have not personally done this but do know of several that have

rocfighter - 2-1-2012 at 03:52 PM

I was thinking of getting a couple of these bungies we use for the boats that are good for 300lbs. Used to absorb the shock from waves.

shehatesmyhobbies - 2-1-2012 at 04:15 PM

Sounds a little like Tim Taylor to me!

rocfighter - 2-1-2012 at 04:43 PM

OHH OHH OHH!!

WELDNGOD - 2-1-2012 at 05:49 PM

I have deployed KKs many times . The only time it didn't go as planned. I got hit by a gust to infinity,yanked out of the buggy .And while supermanning through the air,had the handles snatched away so hard it HURT my fingertips. Just as if I slapped a brick wall or something. Then it ripped the loop that attached it to the wriststrap and the kite was free to go bye bye.(I was only using one) Then I crashed onto the beach,the kite went over the dunes and into the reeds. So Rich is absolutely right about the grip thing. Death grip = bad juju , and kitekillers do have a place and a time.

canuck - 2-1-2012 at 06:25 PM

I would rather trust flying skills and caution instead of KKs. They do nothing for my closed cell foils or my ProFoil 5.5 open cell FB - all these kites do is bounce on the leading edge then reverse launch. Watch out if your kite starts to bow tie - my 3.2m Crossfire did with KKs deployed and launched as a propeller in the powerzone - had to drag it into some bush to stop and spent hours untwisting lines.

lad - 2-1-2012 at 06:41 PM

Compared to using a depower bar kite, KKs deploy instantly, and (in most mild to normal conditions) can make a deliberate relaunch just as instant.
They are a pain sometimes to put on or off, or when they catch on other things.
I appreciate hearing about the idea of looping the lines first thru the bottom handle loops.

BigMikesKites - 2-1-2012 at 06:56 PM

I use the kite killers anytime except when buggying...usually. If I'm going 30 mph and snag something I don't see, I don't want the kite staying with me. Static flying i wear them and do deploy them from time to time when a gust comes about. It keeps me from having to chase down the kite. Keeps the kite off distant poles/trees/people.

The worst I have had on a deployment is a kite wanting to flop around like a wounded BAT and not coming down...but it had no power and it did eventually get to the ground.

BeamerBob - 2-1-2012 at 07:50 PM

I think if you search for kite killer threads you'll hear lots of opinions across the spectrum of love them/hate them. I decided that kite killers are for protecting innocent bystanders and your kite from your poor choice for conditions. Last fall when riding with Angus at Jekyll Island, we both wore kite killers all the time with our large and Xlarge Reactor IIs. This was because we were on a public beach and it both gives you credibility with beachgoers asking questions about how it all works to show them your "safety mechanism" and protects them and the kite if the handles got snatched out of your hand.

However, when riding at Ivanpah, I never wear kite killers because there is no public to protect, kites don't go far once you turn them loose, and most importantly I have frequently had closing speeds of 70-80 mph with other buggiers and don't want to be attached to a kite that could come in contact with another buggier with that much differential speed. Also, I always run with a strop at the dry lake and I have some safety concerns with running a strop and kite killers at the same time. Not the gospel, just my humble opinion.

DAKITEZ - 3-1-2012 at 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by titanflyer

What about only wearing one? If you let go the kite can't go far, but I don't know what it would do to the kite... would it still keep flying?

Never do this! Most likely the kite will be reverse powered on one side and the kite will go into a death spin creating a ton of power.

(knock on wood) I have never seen a kite power back up when deployed on kite killers. I have seen many killers break in high wind conditions, but never have the kite power back up.
I am not going to say its impossible on a open cell foil but it would be a freak of nature. When you let go of the handles the kite killers pull on the trailing edge making the kite fly in reverse. On a open cell foil when the kite is in reverse there is no flow of air going through the leading edge vents to keep it inflated so it turns into a rag in the sky and falls.

jimbocz - 3-1-2012 at 04:19 AM

^^^^this is very good advice ^^^^^^^
it has happened to me, the kite spins around until there are hundreds of twists in the lines. Even if you get hold of the handles, it will most likely be too late to stop the kite from spinning, as the lines will be so twisted you won't be able to apply the other brake. All you can do is sit there looking stupid.

rocfighter - 3-1-2012 at 05:24 AM

The worst thing to happen to me with KK is I was over powered and playing hard in sand on my buggy. The kite was pulled from my hands and the KK worked as they should. But the force of the stoppage broke two of the brake bridle lines. I retided them and limped back to base camp but it was a lot of work to get the kite right again. But if not using killers I would most likely not have the kite any more. Offshore winds and heavy surf it would have been gone to sea!

Tibi - 3-1-2012 at 05:35 AM

I usually wear only one kite killer, but the setup is different: I have a piece of 3mm chord attached in between the brake lines at the knots you would normally attach the kite killers. It looks like a strop, but it's on the brake lines. In the middle of this chord I have an overhand knot that creates a small loop. My kite killer is attached to that loop.
If I wear a harness, I attach the other end of the KK to the harness... that way my arms are free... I can take the handles into one hand and reach for the stake... or I can move the buggy with one hand... all without affecting the kite in the air.

rocfighter - 3-1-2012 at 05:42 AM

Tibi I like your set up. It's more like a depower leash than a killer. I just think it might get cought up with a strop in the buggy. Have you ever had that issue?

Bladerunner - 3-1-2012 at 07:36 AM

On the off chance that you have an issue with your deployment your killers should have a second total release. This completely seperates you from the kite.

I am from the camp that feels kite killers teach you to be a poor pilot! FAR better to learn how to control the power in your kite than to simply let go every time you visit trouble?

If you are in a proper location you should have plenty of space downwind to let go. We ride in a very crowded park. Almost nobody uses killers and we have never had an issue?

ragden - 3-1-2012 at 08:07 AM

Never seen the kite power up backwards when deployed on kite-killers. I can see the logic in the argument, but in all my years of attending bashes, and flying with folks, just never seen it happen. Not impossible, I suppose.

I've ridden on the beach, off-shore, 30-45mph winds, fixed-bridle. I used kite-killers. Held the handles very loosely. A surging gust would rip the handles from my hands, and the kite would deploy to the killers. When this happened, I would quickly steer up the beach and wait for either the kite to come down, or the buggy to hit soft sand and slow... Then I would stake the lines and clean up the lines.

That day, this probably happened half a dozen times. Worked quite well. If I hadn't had killers, kite would have gone out to sea... And it wasn't my kite...

I trusted mine. Broke a few. Kept a few extra for when that happened. Did not have an issue. To each their own.

pyro22487 - 3-1-2012 at 11:49 AM

Take it from me they work every time. I have over sped the buggy and passed the kite with the kite behind em and very low in the window I though oh no here comes another OBE then I just dropped the handles and awesomeness the kite fell from the sky completely depowered and ready for me to turn the buggy around and relaunch again.

Scudley - 4-1-2012 at 03:18 PM

A number of people seem to voicing their belief in the 100% efficacy of kite killers. If pulling on the brake lines is so good at safely flagging kites, why is it that every de-power rig I've seen has two safeties: one that flags the kite; one that completely jettisons the kite?
As a beginner I think you are better off disconnecting the the strop. That makes your first release dropping one handle, and full braking on the other. If it does not safely flag, drop the other handle. For those worried about flying handles: handles are fairly light and slow down pretty fast. They don't go very far.
S

Soma - 4-1-2012 at 04:10 PM

I have to agree with most of you that KKs really work.
It's easier for us newbies, when feeling overpowered, to simply let go of the handles.
It's good to practice it for when the time comes (just do it even when you don't need to)
I've done it several times and never had any problems except when it's really high winds, the kite takes some time to fall still on the ground. Most of the time, I just start lowering my arms to help, and have a stake with you.
But never, I mean NEVER did it powered back again.

@Scudley
I don't seem to follow your thought:
Do you mean drop one handle without having kite killer's attached???
What about innocent bystanders? The handles maybe light but will hurt when slingshot.

And if this isn't enough, drop the other one?
Where would you pick your kite?

Only time I had to drop the handles without KKs, I had to sprint-run 40m before I could catch it, just before it went into a fence. Promised myself to never fly FBs without KKs.

Maybe I'm reading it way off but I don't understand why you would do it like that...

Regards
João

ChrisH - 4-1-2012 at 04:44 PM

Just make sure you keep grass/mud out of the velcro wrist straps and they should do fine for you. I made the mistake of not cleaning the grass/mud out of the velcro once and the strap came off my wrist, thankfully the other one held just fine and did its job. Also might wanna watch the threads in the loop on the kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s that you attach to your lines, sometimes they come undone, I superglue all mine now.

Bladerunner - 4-1-2012 at 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soma

@Scudley
I don't seem to follow your thought:
Do you mean drop one handle without having kite killer's attached???
What about innocent bystanders? The handles maybe light but will hurt when slingshot.

And if this isn't enough, drop the other one?
Where would you pick your kite?

Only time I had to drop the handles without KKs, I had to sprint-run 40m before I could catch it, just before it went into a fence. Promised myself to never fly FBs without KKs.

Maybe I'm reading it way off but I don't understand why you would do it like that...

Regards
João

40m isn't that far ? You should have DOUBLE your line length downwind. This INCLUDES innocent bystanders. If you don't have room to release your kite what is there to stop YOU from being tossed into those innocent bystanders? Yes, I have been tossed 40+m downwind. There is good reason for the double line length rule. Stick to it and you should'nt need killers.

Scudley is saying to hit your brakes hard. If need be let go of one handle with brake on the other. On the off chance your still in trouble dump your kite.

Please don't read this and think that I am 100% anti killers as an option. Just don't use them in lieu of a proper location or to avoid learning to handle power. DON'T put yourself in a position that if they don't work you are in trouble. If you do it could be YOU and not your kite getting tossed into those hazards.

If you simply let go every time you get hit with power you will never learn to control it ?

Prussik - 5-1-2012 at 10:12 AM

In shifty, gusty and grossly overpowering conditions anything that holds the kite perpendicular to the direction of wind is inappropriate as a safety device. In conditions severe enough, with KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, the kite will turn over and reverse launch. Furthermore if the wind suddenly increases 4 times or more, holding on to 2 brake lines has no chance at all and therefore KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s can only be effective in relatively mild situations and are useless in TRUE emergencies. However what works in any conditions is quite simple. About 2 - 2.5 m of "shoelace" cord attached to ONE brake line about 1-1.5 m from the handle, the other end attached to the harness. Optimal lengths depend on kite size and are easy to figure out. They should be such that the safety line will not interfere with steering, yet letting go of the handles positions the kite lengthwise to the wind with no pull and no chance of flying.

Scudley - 5-1-2012 at 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soma
@Scudley
I don't seem to follow your thought:
Do you mean drop one handle without having kite killer's attached???
What about innocent bystanders? The handles maybe light but will hurt when slingshot.

And if this isn't enough, drop the other one?
Where would you pick your kite?

Only time I had to drop the handles without KKs, I had to sprint-run 40m before I could catch it, just before it went into a fence. Promised myself to never fly FBs without KKs.

Answered in order
Yes, drop one handle and fully brake the other. This is just like releasing my strop QR. Seems to work very well with a SC Reflex.
Bystanders : I have never had my handle fly more than half my kite lines. You have to remember that because of the very low stretch of Spectra there is not a lot of distance for the force in the lines to act over so the handles do not gain much energy , E =FxD.

If you have to drop the other handle, I would not be too worried about where your kite is going to land. You should keep in mind that a broken leg or arm is going to cost you far more than even the most expensive kite. It might even make all your gear useless, ask K9. Get used to the idea that your equipment is disposable from the minute you buy it. I think it is pretty stupid to effyourselfup over even a two thousand dollar kite. What is two months off work going to cost you?
Prussik, you express my concerns about how killers will fail better than I do. Thanks

S

Soma - 5-1-2012 at 10:48 AM

After reading above, I now understand the "drop one handle" thing.
Sort of flag out ARC style.

Never thought of that, thank you,

PistolPete - 1-1-2017 at 10:16 PM

DYI - FB Handle Leash & Quick Release
Similar to Ozone style QR

1 Nail 3.5", 16d
1 Tube .75"OD, .5"ID, 5" Long
1 Short Rope 9" with loop ends
1 Long Bungie Rope 3' long relaxed, 6' long stretched, with loop ends

-Cut point off nail and file round
-Bend nail 1" from head 120deg
-File nail head half way where it will touch nail shaft
-Put long rope loop end in nail bend
-Bend nail 180deg so rope loop is stuck in nail loop
-Put short rope loop end over nail head
-Pull long rope/nail/short rope into tube
-Pull test ends of rope
-QR test by sliding tube up long rope

>Short rope end to attach to harness/belt
>Long rope end to attach to brake line
>When QR pulled, long rope with nail gets pulled away

-For ropes I use 7/16" amsteel
-For 2' elastic rope 1/16"dia elastic fid thru amsteel and sewn
-Burrowed 2' elastic in center of 6' rope
-Amsteel over elastic compressed (not tight)
-Elastic ends sewn to amsteel 2" each end

Pictures hopefully worth 1000 words...

Kite Killer Setup

Leash & Quick Release Setup

Let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements :eureka:

skimtwashington - 2-1-2017 at 07:41 AM

Interesting Do It Yourself(DIY) make up, light and cheap!...

Are you suggesting it's use as a single kite killer w/release for just one brake...?

If so...thinking...... :rolleyes:

.....

....From previous:

Quote:

What about only wearing one(kite killer)? If you let go the kite can't go far, but I don't know what it would do to the kite... would it still keep flying?

reply: Never do this! Most likely the kite will be reverse powered on one side and the kite will go into a death spin creating a ton of power.

reply:it has happened to me, the kite spins around until there are hundreds of twists in the lines. Even if you get hold of the handles, it will most likely be too late to stop the kite from spinning, as the lines will be so twisted you won't be able to apply the other brake. All you can do is sit there looking stupid.

If this is the experience of some FB kite fliers, then the concern is it will act the same as using ONE traditional kite killer (for your wrist). Instead of attached to wrist...... it's your harness- but the same potential issue exists applying one brake /side of kite.

But at least you now have a release if it does death spin, to get completely free of kite-if needed. This DIY set up is at least a kite leash with a safety release...however you want to use it.

Good DIY design and potential. Maybe just needs right application. :thumbup:

Bladerunner - 2-1-2017 at 10:03 AM

I made pretty much exactly this ( without the killers ) long ago.

I used cotter pins instead of a nail. What I found was the whole system ate up a lot of strop. I use a short strop and being short on the one side was irritating. I would sometimes get the knot caught in my spreader.

PistolPete - 2-1-2017 at 10:38 AM

I agree, you'll probably end up with a spinning kite for a while and twisted lines. :spin:

Kite Killers are fine for static flying, unless really overpowered... I was looking for a safer alternative for landboarding. 8 years ago, I got several stiches in my chin from power sliding the landboard then getting launched superman style. Kite Killers or Leash, the start of the crash would have been the same. I had a full face motorcycle helmet on but my superman landing was chin up. I remember I could not twist and roll because my arms were being yanked, so I was stuck in the arms out position.

Before about 2003 several kiteboard bars came with wrist straps for flagging. Quickly people converted them to a leash system and then the industry did too. Up until 2009 some kiteboard bars had a leash attached to the bar end line, instead of a center line. This sometimes caused LEI kites to death loop, the industry mostly leashes to a single front line or 5th line now. Some still safety to both centerlines so the LEI kite will rest/float upside down on the water for easier relaunch. Some 5th line LEI kites also rest/float upside down on the water. Mostly the industry has adopted a single front line flag.

Depower foil kites flag to the a front line or 5th line. Flagging to a 5th line reduces the spins/twists/mess vs the front line. I suspect if you flagged to a steering line a depower foil kite would spin even more.

Anyone know what would be different if a leash were attached to one power line, instead of one brake line, on a fixed bridle open cell kite :puzzled:

Prussik - 2-1-2017 at 02:28 PM

Safety leash has to be attached far enough from the handle to allow for a complete flagout and no spins as per my earlier posting. It works perfectly well with one brake line so I never tried to put it on power line where it would likely work but I can't see any advantage of that setup.