Kober - 24-1-2012 at 07:39 PM
After my trip to Tug Hill I notice that my foils ( Gin Yeti ) could not stay park at zenith ....... collapsing, overflying, twisting...... all bad
stuff....... There was also Manta and Access in air with same problems ....... wind gusting ~25-40 mph .......
2 PL Twinskins did a bit better and did not rip riders off the ground when gusts pass by ...... however .... bowtie and taco issue come up too
often .....
Looks like pump ups did best ...... once kite was in air riders was able to keep them steady and ride for most off day ........
Is that what I should do ????? Pack up my snowkites that was designed to fly in harsh inland conditions and set up kite that is made to use on
water where wind is most off time clean and steady ......
That is not making any sense .....
...... I know foils are way easier to fly on land with less issues relaunching , landing and dropping ..... harder to get damage on them , easier to
carry , easier to set up ....... and bla bla bla bla .......... and after all that talk with pump up users we get to kiting spot and they having fun
and I am full of anger and frustration .....
something is not right here ....
There was around 40 LEIs and only few foils that did not keep up with them .......
I know we got mostly foil users here ..... but I am sure some of you did run to this situation before ......
What you do ??? Start using LEI on snow ?????
Kober
Feyd - 24-1-2012 at 08:14 PM
Bridled foils don't handle gusty conditons well in general IMO. At least not without a lot of attention from the pilot.
The Access is one of the best for handling gsty conditions tho. Great kite from what I've seen.
Auto zenith is a Peter Lynn Arc trait. In regards to issues such as bowties and tacos I tend to blame pilot error (most likely insufficient inflation
or set up improperly) for these sorts of issues. That said there are anomolies where it's a defect with the kite but this is fairly rare.
But if the wind was 25-40 you're going to have to work hard to keep things fun.
I don't know what to tell ya. I don't see any advantage of an LEI over my Arcs for sure and not much over most foils except for turn rate and lack of
bridles. Nobody I ride with uses LEIs on snow or water. I've never run into LEIs elsewhere and felt outgunned. I have seen days where foil riders
were out while LEIS were struggling.
I think it comes down to how well one handles thier wing.
kitemaker4 - 24-1-2012 at 08:27 PM
This is why I fly nasa wings. They are great in gusty inland wind.
Susan (npw goddess)
RedSky - 24-1-2012 at 09:00 PM
One simple answer from me is that LEI's retain their shape no matter what. That's the key!
.....he says as he runs for cover.
macboy - 24-1-2012 at 10:37 PM
I think you work with what you've got? The issues that arise here when it's dirty is wind that goes from hero to less than zero and in those
conditions all LEIs would drop with everyone else. I think the Arcs hold the trophy for handling gusts while maintaing composure while an LEI may be
able to spill gusts but at the same time you're spilling all the power.
Not sure that was quite 2 cents worth.
AD72 - 24-1-2012 at 10:58 PM
Bridles no good in shifty gusty winds since they rely on the bridles to keep the shape.
ARC good when maintaining front line tension. 
Keep it from bowtying
LEI good when maintaining back line tension. Keep if from hindenburging
herc - 25-1-2012 at 03:44 AM
IMHO, a bridled arc would be the winner in such conditions.
i am not talking about a full bridle, but just a few bridles cleverly placed, that avoid the three major drawbacks of arc kites: bowties, taco and
inverts.
maybe just thre or four thin additional lines running along the leading edge of the arc kite; barely taking load, just avoiding the dreaded bowties
and inverts.
no tubekite could beat such an arc, because arc kites have a strong reflex, that automatically stabilize the AoA in dirty rotor winds. a tubekite
would simply hindenburg, if the AoA changes drastically.
btw, the flysurfer viron is nothing else than a bridled arc kite. a bit too much bridles for my taste, a bit too low aspect ratio and too thick
profile to be interesting. well its just a trainer kite. but imagine something inbetween: a synergy / charger style arc kite with a few bridles to
avoid the usual nasty things that -- face it -- happens to beginner arc kite users all the time.. maybe with an option to remove the bridle / make it
optional ?
Feyd - 25-1-2012 at 04:17 AM
Herc, I had mentioned to the local Flysurfer riders that the Viron looked very much like nothing more than a bridled Arc.
They didn't take kindly to that.
But you nailed it. They reflex qualities of the Arcs is amazing. On really gusty days the kite is changing shape constantly in the gusts but from
the kiter's POV you hardly feel it or even see it. It's the primary reason I ride them.
There are bridled kites that handle gusts well but only compared to bridled kites that are aweful in gusty. For example the Slingshot Ranger actually
doesn't beat you up too badly in the dirty wind which I was suprised by because it has a lot of bridles. An '05 Frenzy on the otherhand can be
brutal.
PHREERIDER - 25-1-2012 at 06:33 AM
tubes are rough in gusty...when you are moving the gust are of little issue, but very jerky and require piloting to keep up, keep them moving is
the key, you need to be MOVING.
arcs are kinder in gusty, when you are moving the gust are even less an issue, but smoother through the gust but require piloting to keep up, keep
them moving is the key, you need to be MOVING.
FB just like tubes in gusty but with collapse being an issue, but if you're moving much less of an issue.
I would bet 90% of the problems arise from static activity, if you stop you're gonna have problems. you're piloting while moving AND you must still
pilot when static.
if the wind shuts off(lull) you just have to fly aggressively til its on and balance for power surge. even moving a little will keep most units
happy.
motion! continuous motion by pilot input. just like coming in from offshore surf if you stop kite is gonna drop!
+1 with Feyd, pilot makes it stay together, with gust its just MORE work
BeamerBob - 25-1-2012 at 08:22 AM
I don't ever remember any of my arcs bowtieing after I'm well inflated and launched, especially if I'm moving. I'm with the experts in that problems
in gusty conditions while flying arcs must come down to static flying, underinflation while launching, and not being able to anticipate the kites
actions before they happen. All the kites need pilots............well, except the arcs sometimes. 
Kober - 25-1-2012 at 08:31 PM
Yea .... I know.... I am new pilot and I am sure I have plenty to learn about kiting techniques ......... and I was probably only one foil user that
day that ride only for 2 hours where others ride most off day ...... I did notice that when I did move, kite stays more stable then when staying
and zenith ..... it was just too much for me .....
..... and wind was gusty as hell ..... I did see arc, fully lit and folding in half when guy was moving across field ....... when looking at
video I see kite changing it shape from very Arc shape to flat and back in seconds ........ that is definitely a gust wind kite..... no doubt
.... pilot was A+ since he did many jumps and tricks that day with confidence ......... and still running to "beginner" arc issues ........
on another hand I did not see any problems that LEI users have except being overpowered every few minutes .... thats why I was trying get some
answers ..... please don't hate me ......lol
BeamerBob - 25-1-2012 at 09:04 PM
dude, no hate here unless you REALLY ask for it and deserve it. Asking questions won't ever get you in trouble unless you go out of your way to
insult people.
kitedelight - 25-1-2012 at 11:23 PM
well said Bob.
it would be interesting to see that video to see what the day was like. You should post it sometime.
herc - 26-1-2012 at 02:37 AM
@Kober: nothing wrong with your observation ! tubekites have evolved alot since 2007 no comparison of a 2007 tube vs a 2011 there are worlds
inbetween!
pros: they have massive depower; they turn faast; they keep shape even in the worst rotor, so you can eventually relaunch without bowtie (but inverts
happen with tubekites too), you can backward launch (most of) them
cons: on land and especially icy snow: massive wear and tear on the rigid fronttube! bladder leaks = game over ! very cold = stiff air valves, danger
of breaking the rubber; danger of bursting the fronttube when crashing the kite; last but not least: you need to pump it up - can be unpleasant in
thick winter clothes. i remember me pumping my tube and sweating all over, no sight because skimask was all foggy, then riding and freezing..
another important downside for racers: lower aerodynamic efficiency ! the airflow below the tube is always turbulent -> low efficiency, high drag,
bad upwind and overall performance compared to good foils like PL vapor, speed3, probably those upcoming high AR race foils from libre and those
russian monster kites..
if you are more into freestyle, dont mind the pumping and the higher wear and tear - nothing to say against tubekites on snow..
markite - 26-1-2012 at 07:16 AM
We quite often get gusty wind whenever it's higher wind. Depending on wind direction the bay we launch from in the winter can have extra turbulence
thrown into the gust mix as it comes over a tree line. It's in these conditions (gust + turbulence) that most kites have problems and it's really
magnified with any soft kite. We've had crazy launches with arcs and they can be up, inflated, get a gust that rips them forward and then turbulence
that pushes them sideways or downward and then all sorts of #@%$#!e can happen. When it's like this you need to get moving asap - get some consistent
airflow over the kite and you won't have any turbulence effects especially once we move into the larger open part of the lake. Yes you still feel
gusts and the kite reacts but no big deal at that point, you start looking for gusts for speed boost.
When we've kited on fields with a lot of hills - same thing, the hills are fun but when the wind is up it's the turbulence that you need to contend
with. The problems would not be resolved on an arc in those conditions by putting a bridle on it - the collapse or inverts happen either by the top
rolling forward and folding downward into a twist or getting hit from the side clam shelling and twisting. Experience goes a long way to watch the
movement of the kite and feel the changes in wind and get going - standing around all kites will misbehave in krudy wind. Rigid kites (LEI) will surge
forward and bobble all over the place sometimes Hindenburging but I haven't seen that as much as earlier LEI designs. Most of the time they might fall
off the edge of the wind window and either bounce on a wingtip or fall forward if in that lull period.
On really bad days you need to know when to call it - no sense struggling and possibly getting hurt when there will be far more better days to kite.
kiteyakker - 26-1-2012 at 11:11 AM
This is a really great discussion, I fly in gusty winds the majority of the time and am still figuring this stuff out. Just one question..what
exactly is hindenburging?
flyguy0101 - 26-1-2012 at 11:13 AM
Hindenburging is when an LEI overflys the window and then just drops out of the sky. I think phree and some of the others nailed it- while i love my
arcs the real key is movement, when the kite is flying it just becomes more stable- my tiny field sucks for that
scott
snowspider - 26-1-2012 at 12:22 PM
I once owned the definition of hindenburg , a first generation slingshot turbo. Placed anywhere near zenith moving or not the lines would go slack and
it would glide forward out of the sky, very often right at me and I would sometimes catch it.
kitedelight - 26-1-2012 at 05:19 PM
snowspider, haha, that would be a good self-landing trick. 
"real key is movement, when the kite is flying it just becomes more stable- my tiny field sucks for that" (flyguy)
yup, that's also what I experience. I am liking my LEI better for my small landboard field for this reason. Just pull in the bar and it goes. Seems
they can get away with less quality air going through the wing to engage power. And yup, different story snowkiting in an open area. The arc does
MUCH better compared to the smaller area. The arc can look like its doing not too well from a distance (canopy moving a lot), but the ride can still
be reasonably smooth. It's pretty impressive actually. Still need more time on the LEI to make have a good impression on the snow.
herc - 27-1-2012 at 02:52 AM
a good comparison comes to mind:
in smooth air, high performance paragliders rule. they have MUCH better glide (1:8 up to 1:11 for competition gliders), lower sink, you can capture
the smallest updrafts of air to keep flying.
in rough, turbulent, strong air, you can only fly speedflyers or skydive canopies. these canopies are very very low performance (bad glide: 1:3 to 1:6
maybe) but are highly robust against collapses, folds and canopy-line tangles. the reason is: they have a very low aspect ratio and the profile is
such that the airflow on the bottom side is always turbulent. that is because they have large air intakes that act like a tripwire for the airflow.
now to the world of kites:
foils like flysurfers, vapors, also PL synergies & chargers have a high performance profile with good glide (insider told me for flysurfer 1:7 ,
for a vapor or similiar high perf buggy kite lets say 1:8) so go upwind like crazy, can have high speeds but tend to collapse in dirty air. the reason
is the good profile on the bottom side of the kite: if a gust causes the airflow at the kite into a negative angle of attack, the kite is basically
accelerated downwards !! this means a front collapse or other nasty things.
with a tubekite you have the same situation as with a speedflyer: low(er) performance; the airflow at the bottom side is turbulent, so if in gusty
conditions the angle of attack suddenly gets negative, at least the kite is not accelerated downwards. additionally the rigidity helps to keep the
airfoil in shape...
Feyd - 27-1-2012 at 07:27 AM
Great description Herc.
Kober - 28-1-2012 at 12:00 AM
This is awesome ....... so much help and info thanks to PKF........
Now.... another thing that I notice is how gusts change my kite launch when using snowboard.....
In clean wind conditions........ I would get my Arc in air witch stays there with autoZenith and take my time getting in to the board bindings......,
with other foils ..... one hand on a bar and you know what is happening with kite when using other hand to fit in to the board ..... then you ready
to go .......
With gusts that is not easy ...... so I am dealing with board first , then hot launch kite ...... few issues with that ......
When hot launching..... kite powers up quick and most off time I am in air panicking ..... I am always waiting for lull ....and almost always launch
when gust is present.... If not in air ..... most off time I can just ride off the gust ..... and get going
When holding the brake with kite ready to relaunch ...... I am trying to get my board on .... and gust pass by , invert kite and launch backward
with enough power to drag me with one foot in binding ...grrrrr..... hate that ...... pulling brake with both hands and fighting with power of
wind until gust pass .......
After kite drops ..... you want to relaunch ..... let go brake and nothing happen .... pull power lines .... nothing.... kite just get drugged
towards you ..... stand up .... jump back a bit with you board to put tension on you lines ....... and when you do that ...... gust is here ,,,,,,
and I am eating snow .......
So ..... I know it take practice to be ready for those situation ..... but maybe there are suggestions about dealing with those problems ??????
Bladerunner - 28-1-2012 at 09:41 AM
That was a great answer Herc ! I have never heard it explained so well.
Of course the arc is reacting a bit different. ( and to a degree Flysurfer ) Shape shifting as well.
Just curious about the Bow Ties ? What model of arcs and were the pilots experienced? My newer arcs are hard to bow afetr properly filled and if
anybody can do it, I can ! I am more prone to have my arc flip on itself when I lose control?