Power Kite Forum - Lets talk light wind PL Arcs (Yet Again)

Lets talk light wind PL Arcs (Yet Again)

barnes - 30-1-2012 at 08:29 PM

This is what happens when you haven't been out in over a year:

So I went out yesterday and spent my day fighting to get my 16m Scrop up. Wind was ~10-15mph. A few guys were up and riding on 13m foils, 14-16m blimps. I know I could have gotten it up, but I was just at a loss for the tricks...as I haven't had the kite out in months, and before then it was a solid few months.

Anyways, after my frustration, I did some researching and came up with the following resolutions:
-Loosen the middle strap.
-Use a 5 gallon bucket with the bottom cut off, or something similar to really open up the in valve.
-Leaf blower / PC fan battery combo / a way to pump it up before launching.

I've always just launched right into the power zone, pulling in the far wing tip and letting it sit straight downwind, pumping the front lines to get it up, keeping tension on the rear lines to avoid bow tying as much as possible.

I'm going to take the kite to the park with no wind and give is a GOOD check, checking lines / bridals for stretch, valves are open/ etc.

So, if you've got better advice on low wind launching, please indulge me! Also, any other things I should be checking out when I'm checking it over, that'd be awesome!

Cheers!

pbc - 30-1-2012 at 09:23 PM

I have a 16m Scorp too. Those things will make a fool of you if you don't know how to inflate them. I'd get an inflator if I were you, but you should know the hug-your-arc method as well. http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=20359&p... When you hug your arc it knows you love it and will fly for you.

The other trick is on launch, grab the upper lines and yank the be-geezus out of them as you walk back while launching. Lastly, I like to turn my arcs as soon as possible after launch. The speed they acquire from a quick run to the edge and back seems to provide an instant top off. It also minimizes the risk of Scorp hand clap. When your Scorp gets the clap you may as well just land it and give it some more hugs. Hugs prevent the clap.

FYI, I have a 15m Phantom as well. It is much easier to launch under-inflated, fill while standing up at ground level in the hot launch zone, and top off in flight. Of course it turns as about as tightly as an 18 wheeler, but that's another story.

Philip

barnes - 30-1-2012 at 10:06 PM

She certainly needs a hug, shes been packed away FAR too long and I feel awful about it. Some sweet lovin' will probably go a long way. :roll:

I'll probably throw together a PC fan inflator together as I know more about electronics then kites, but I have a feeling a quality inflator like a portable leaf blower is probably a better bet...then again, should I be worrying about water resistance in the snow? I'll start contemplating this. Whats everyone using as inflators these days? Don't want to spend too much as I'm saving for Snowkite Masters and a 10m to add to my quiver!

BeamerBob - 30-1-2012 at 10:34 PM

Inflatomatic

Ebay steal for $10.50 current bid. Hard to beat if the price sticks. Only $25 including shipping.

This was a no brainer for me since I already had a drill and 3 of the batteries. Got mine shipped for under $50.

cheezycheese - 30-1-2012 at 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
Inflatomatic

Ebay steal for $10.50 current bid. Hard to beat if the price sticks. Only $25 including shipping.

This was a no brainer for me since I already had a drill and 3 of the batteries. Got mine shipped for under $50.

No battery or charger with that one....

BeamerBob - 30-1-2012 at 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cheezycheese

Quote:

No battery or charger with that one....

Nor with mine. For $25 it would be worth it to get the battery and charger and throw away the blower. This unit is $99 with lithium battery and charger new at Home Depot.

AD72 - 30-1-2012 at 11:52 PM

Without a doubt inflate it all the way with a fan or blower. Makes launching a lot more predictable.

barnes - 31-1-2012 at 12:10 AM

I'll start hunting / building a blower.

Anyone with a heavy duty power inverter and an extension cable, this bad boy looks like it could produce enough wind to kite. :wee:

http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-portable-ventilator-97762.html

...but more then likely, I'll over engineer a big ol' PC fan array (most air flow I can get, big lead acid batteries, unnecessarily efficient buck buck converters, water proofed case) to get the job done. I like making things before buying them. Surely I'll document the whole deal for everyone. If I can make a pump to inflate in ~2 minutes, and have battery capacity to pump up 5+ times on a charge, I'll be happy!

EDIT: That being said, take advantage of an electrical engineering student. What would be your most ideal PL inflator? I'll see what I can make happen, and supply a brutally in depth guide for the non electronic nerds out there.

macboy - 31-1-2012 at 01:29 AM

If you're not in a rush to inflate I've found that any old PC fan (square one) with a 9V battery double sided taped to the backside can be wedged into the zipper and will fill the kite while you tend to other things like lines, boots, skis, boards etc. If you could use a larger fan and strap 2 9V batteries to them you should have ore than you need and no reason to complicate it much more than that - providing the now 18v source doesn't knock out the fan.

lad - 31-1-2012 at 05:09 AM

Small, handy, efficient...fit's in your kite/buggy bag...(if you can still find one out there).

lunchbox - 31-1-2012 at 07:32 AM

Quote:

Also, any other things I should be checking out when I'm checking it over, that'd be awesome!

Aside from the complete fill, make sure your back lines aren't too tight especially in light winds. I had to add several inches to my back lines on my Scorp after I got it.

Bladerunner - 31-1-2012 at 07:41 AM

I can't speak for Scorpian but I find that with both my 15m arcs if I can't fill by nature I won't enjoy the ride once force filled.

This is different with my 18m Phantom. It is very forgiving of underfill + supplies me with the power I need so still no need for a pump. It does serve up enough power on near no wind once flying + takes me through complete lulls if I am moving well enough. I am really liking this kite.

pbc - 31-1-2012 at 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
I can't speak for Scorpian but I find that with both my 15m arcs if I can't fill by nature I won't enjoy the ride once force filled.
...

I enjoy the ride more if Mother Nature does the trick, but I can still have a good buggy ride at the beach when an inflator is required.

The kind of wind that allows an Arc to self-inflate is always going to be fun to fly in.

Philip

Feyd - 31-1-2012 at 02:28 PM

All really good input here. And really of all the Arcs the Scorp is REALLY sensitive to being underinflated.

A great ride when you get her going tho.:wee:

Woodland - 31-1-2012 at 04:44 PM

A lot of the spots where barnes is launching from has some wind shadow. I use a Makita blower because I use the drill and impact sets at work and have extra batteries. They work best if you blow from about a foot away from the opened zipper. They also work blowing straight into the front vents. I've also found if I launch my 15m Synergy slightly under-inflated and start moving immediately across the wind, steering the kite the same direction, it tops off the kite within a few seconds with less of a chance of tip clap or bowtie from trying to bring it to zenith, or turning too soon. 10 to 15 mph out on the Camas is enjoyable with the right snow conditions. barnes, if you need a refresher give me a ring and we'll meet up.

lad - 31-1-2012 at 05:22 PM

"This is different with my 18m Phantom.... I am really liking this kite."

U & me both, bro! :spin:

It's funny, some say it handles just like the 15m.

But the 18's much lower wind range, and great behavior seems much more pronounced than you'd expect from only 3ms more added. It just goes up and stays up on next to nothing, even with the added ripstop/weight. The 15 still needs pretty noticeable wind not to stall or fall.

I think maybe the AR, attack, or cells, etc. was somehow more optimized for the 18m size overall.

barnes - 31-1-2012 at 06:17 PM

Woodland, yeah Last Resort had a huge window on Sunday and I was snow shoe-less to really make the hike over the rock garden. Hopefully as soon as we get JUST enough wind, I won't be so stuck, but I could certainly use some low wind pointers.

BeamerBob - 31-1-2012 at 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lad
"This is different with my 18m Phantom.... I am really liking this kite."

U & me both, bro! :spin:

It's funny, some say it handles just like the 15m.

But the 18's much more pronounced low-wind power, and great behavior seems much more pronounced than you'd expect from the mere 3m difference between the two top sizes.

I think maybe the AR, attack, or cells, etc. was somehow more optimized for the 18m size overall.

The day I first flew Angus's 18 I had flown my 15 for a couple hours before that and the first thing I said was that it flies exactly like the 15. Also like the 12m but it turns faster and finds itself in a slightly different category.

Feyd - 1-2-2012 at 02:29 PM

You want a light wind Arc the F-arc has them all beat.

I flew my 18m Phantom against my 16m F-arc and sold the Phantom the next day. Nothing against the Phantom, it's a great kite as many will attest but the F-Arc made the Phanny feel like an old ladie's kite.

The F-Arc is just raw power and fast. Very narrow wind range compare to the Phanny for sure but way more power when you want it. Just when the Phantom starts getting you going the F-Arc will have you fully powered and hauling the mail.:wee:

God help you if you set her down wrong tho. You can pull the center lines all you want but with such a high AR 2/3's of the kite will move whil the center just sits there.

pbc - 1-2-2012 at 04:54 PM

I finally got to fly an F-Arc in December and it was everything you say. It trade back and forth between it and my Scorp and the F-arc could absolutely point higher into the wind.

The ground handling was atrocious. I was flying solo and despite having an inflator I could not do a conventional solo-arc launch. I found I had to lay it straight down wind in a U-shape, palms up, pull back till it stand up. Inflate it in the wind at ground level and then take off. It's the only thing that worked for me. But yes quite fun in the air. I forgot I need to budget for one of those. I think I need a 10 :-)

Philip

Feyd - 1-2-2012 at 05:40 PM

They get easier with practice especially if you have a little wind. But yeah, Peter said in his blog that if the 1600 goes in the water it's damn near impossible to relaunch.

The 12m is a lot friendlier and still a machine in light winds. And both are supreme hucking machines. Very FS speedesque in the hangtime.

They mad a few 9m F-Arcs but I don't think they ever went to market. Chris Brent designed the F-Arc and he told me the 9m was basically a 12m with some cells removed. So one would assume that the AR would be lower as a result which I'm not sure I would like in my F-Arc. But then again it might be awesome.

I bounce back and forth from the Phantom 2's to the F-Arcs. I really love how both designs fly and I love having the option to play with either. Both are equally fun in thier own ways.

PHREERIDER - 1-2-2012 at 06:19 PM

sounds like you have it down. heres my tipping points on light air on an arc , the launch to ride when its light maybe 8mph.

low wind launching, fill 3-4 cells down wind tip, with the up wind tip zip open, pump it forward roughly a cell width. back and forth. the down wind zip HAS TO BE SUPPORTED AND FLAT not sagging ...thats the go sign few more pumps and close.

when hooked in, grab the main, BAR IN and take several BIG quick steps backwards into the wind, kite rolls and shapes(KEEP MOVING!) add a few deep pulls on the main and you are set. immediately add input to "FLY it FULL" ....and keep it moving.

light air REQUIRES constant movement, the kite , you on your ride... all moving.

got to set you free from the rust

Feyd - 2-2-2012 at 07:15 AM

Light wind launches are alway a balancing act. The video that I posted of myself launching the 1600 F-Arc while stranded 3 miles out at sunset does a good job of illustrating the balancing act.

http://youtu.be/sdBV2njwwJg

I don't think I would have pulled it off if I wasn't at risk of a 3 mile walk of shame in 2' of packed powder on top of 8" of slush. If I didn't get her in the air i would have stashed her on the island a flown out the next day to pick her up.

Thanks to Chris Brent for putting 4 big intakes in my 1600. If you can get her moving she swallows air super fast.

barnes - 2-2-2012 at 08:07 PM

Just picked up this conveniently shaped fan. Bunch more where this came from too, so if this doesn't supply enough, I can always stack another set on top.

Details to come when I've actually got the unit put together.

100_0115.jpg - 41kB

PHREERIDER - 2-2-2012 at 08:19 PM

check out hardrocks set up. tidy ! self contained.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PALpQyj_rcQ&feature=playe...

barnes - 2-2-2012 at 10:43 PM

Mine will be pently tidy and self contained!:bigok:

barnes - 4-2-2012 at 10:45 AM

Low wind day today, time to test out this set up. Should be handy with or without battery power just keep the flap open.
:thumbup:

pbc - 5-2-2012 at 06:09 AM

With that design you could explore the jet-pump effect wherein the flow of high speed air pulls a much larger volume of low speed air with it. This could be perfect for the high volume/low pressure needs of arc inflation. As always, there's a Wikipedia article for that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injector

Philip

acampbell - 5-2-2012 at 10:11 AM

Late to the party here but remember that Scorps can benefit fom Pigtails on the rear bridles. Make'm 10" long with knots every 2 inches and start with 6".

+ 1 for the PC fan. Got a 12v 6" fan and 9v rechargeable RC car battery with charger at Radio Shack all for lest than $30. Together weighs less than a pound, will slip in a pocket and fills the kite enough to bounce a quarter off it in the time it takes to lay out the lines.

g00fba11 - 5-2-2012 at 10:53 AM

barnes..... awesome inflator setup..... is that a 3 or 5 gallon pail you are using??? What size battery you got driving those fans????

My Scorps have the additional rear bridle pigtails Angus mentions and which are also talked about in the arc set up doc found here Arc Setup FAQ just go to the kite specific section for the Scorpion......

I had my pigtails made by fixmykite.com.... I cut and pasted the info from the setup doc into an email and sent it off to them..... got back a couple of perfect sets of pigtails for my Scorps..... these along with uber inflation really solved the issues for me.......

barnes - 5-2-2012 at 11:57 AM

g00fba11,

Right now, I have standard 9v batteries. Currently on the prowl for something better, haven't had much time to start crunching number on it yet...I may make a DC-DC converter to take super common cell phone / camera batteries from 3-5v up to 12v. (A 1500mA cell battery should be able to run both of my fans for ~5 hours from my math...)

g00fba11 - 5-2-2012 at 05:25 PM

Page 2 glitch....