Power Kite Forum - Born-Kite Nasa Star 2 (various sizes)

Born-Kite Nasa Star 2 (various sizes)

John Holgate - 18-3-2012 at 11:01 PM

My first Nasa Wing (definitely NOT my last....) Beautifully made. Very light - will fly in not much at all. Very stable. Constant grunty power even at slow speed and even in gusty conditions. Nothing to break. Fast turning. I don't think there's anything I don't like about this kite. Sure, the wind window is certainly not as wide as an Ozone Method so I'm not expecting it to have the same upwind ability and because it produces it's power at relatively slow speeds, I'm not expecting to set any speed pb's with it but for varied terrain (farm/dunes & the like) and solid power that really seems to smooth out the gusts...wow, I'm impressed. I had no problems going up and down my 'tracS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- with a few slightly upwind sections.

I found Born-Kite.de on the internet, shot them an email, and Steffen Born was very prompt and friendly with his replies. No problem sending me one from Germany. Got to Australia in 9 days for a very reasonable price too.

Here's the vid:

Now as this is rigged as a two line, with a third 'depower' line - a question for four line Nasa wing flyers - What percentage of power is spread between the 'power' lines and 'brake' lines? ie: is most of the pull coming from the top/power lines?

And can you steer a four line Nasa using the rear/brake lines?

herc - 19-3-2012 at 10:07 AM

very nice review !

cheezycheese - 19-3-2012 at 10:48 AM

Nice video review !!! Bobalooie, DON'T LOOK !!

Cerebite - 19-3-2012 at 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Holgate
Now as this is rigged as a two line, with a third 'depower' line - a question for four line Nasa wing flyers - What percentage of power is spread between the 'power' lines and 'brake' lines? ie: is most of the pull coming from the top/power lines?

And can you steer a four line Nasa using the rear/brake lines?

Since the other NASA flyers have not yet chimed in I will answer first. My three are all NPW5s so the flight characteristics of the NPW9 and NPW -HA may differ. Mine fly with an even split of power between power and brake lines, needs lots brake pressure to "hold" the wind. They fly, in my opinion, very much like Rev's.

Yes quite a bit of steering possible/ required with the brake lines up to and including hovering and reverse flight.

John Holgate - 19-3-2012 at 09:31 PM

Thanks Cerebite - that's exactly what I wanted to know.

Cheers guys.

Crash then swim - 25-3-2012 at 03:48 PM

If anyone wants more info on any of the line from BORN Kites let me know. I am the US distributor for them. I always have a few in stock and have even been known to send them out to demo. There will be both the depowered NASA Star2 and the NASA Star1 at Wildwood full set of each to demo and purchase. Find me at Wildwood or hit me with a U2U.

:wee:

PistolPete - 25-3-2012 at 08:16 PM

Great review John...got me interested, for longboarding :wee:

http://streetkiter.de/en/

http://www.born-kite.de/index.html

John Holgate - 25-3-2012 at 10:11 PM

The streetkiter link is interesting. Don't see anyone down this way flying no lines straight off the bar style.

Was hoping to get some footage in the buggy this weekend but the wind dropped to 3-5 knots so had to settle for a static fly instead. Got some nice video - particularly impressed with the ability of the Nasa Star 2 to nose dive it straight into the ground, take a couple of steps back and it flys up backwards, does a loop and off you go! Don't ask me how it does that, but it does. I'll get that video together in the next few days....

John Holgate - 26-3-2012 at 01:39 PM

Here is said video.....

Don't know how it manages to fly backwards to re launch when it's not a four line kite.....:puzzled: but it works and it's a hoot to fly.

bigE123 - 30-3-2012 at 12:14 AM

very nice!! Thanks for sharing, suprised at going two line with a depower line, as these things really come alive in 4 line. That said looks like someone has done a good job on improving the design.

John Holgate - 8-4-2012 at 05:16 PM

Had a good fly with the 4, 5.5 & 7m Nasa Star 2's on the weekend in gusty 4-14 knot conditions. When powered up, I had no problem getting upwind. At a very rough guess, I might lose 10-15 degrees of upwind capability compared to an Apex or Access but was still able to gain ground without too much problem...except when the wind dropped down to 4 - 5 knots and I had the 4m up. Probably no surprises there!

Was flying alongside a 6m Century and an 8m Toxic and in those light and gusty conditions, both those kites were often on the ground. I was able to keep the Nasa's up all the time. Sure, when the 6m Century was going, it passed me like I was standing still but that's to be expected.

Put the 7m up in 4-7 knots at the end of the day and it was instantly park 'n ride away. Well powered. Super stable. No problems getting back upwind. Slow (I was on grass) but heaps of grunt.

I have the bar rigged up with Born-Kite's conversion kit now (yt clip here: Nasa Star 2 conversion kit and find it very easy and reassuring to have the red ball & pulley - that is on the line above the bar - tucked underneath a finger so if I get overpowered, I can just haul back on the center line effectively killing off the power in the kite. Also handy when hot launching - just let the bar out a little to take the power out of the kite.

When 'depowering' the kite, the nose folds over and the kite slows down, which is the opposite of a depower foil. So I can't really use the depower in the same way as normal.....more for taking the power out of the kite. Not the most 'elegant' solution I've seen, but effective, nontheless.

Very smooth and responsive to fly and most of all, a hell of a lot of fun.

John Holgate - 10-4-2012 at 05:34 AM

A closer look at the 2.5m and how the depower works.....

bobalooie57 - 10-4-2012 at 06:06 AM

Very nice review, John. Makes me want to tinker with flying my NASA's on 2 lines/bar. You could take your whole quiver in one backpack!

PistolPete - 10-4-2012 at 09:18 PM

Great review John :thumbup:

Hope to see a little video review of the 5.5m and 7m in action before I dive into getting one, or two. :tumble:

John Holgate - 14-4-2012 at 08:11 PM

Here's some buggying footage taken at Truganina Park close to Melbourne with the 4, 5.5 & 7m Nasa Star 2's. The 7m can have me rolling in the buggy when bigger and way more expensive kites are struggling with the light conditions. The window is certainly narrower than foils, but even so, getting upwind did not prove to be a problem.

PistolPete - 15-4-2012 at 09:05 PM

Thanks John! Looks like the 7m might be the one to choose for very low wind conditions :thumbup:

Is apparent wind much of a factor? It appears that the kite achieves maximum powers almost instantly? Thanks again for the video post :smilegrin:

John Holgate - 15-4-2012 at 09:49 PM

Quote:

It appears that the kite achieves maximum powers almost instantly?

That was my immediate impression too. Had to work it a little when the wind dropped to 4 knots or so. I have no idea what effect apparent wind and a low friction surface is going to have - I'm yet to get them onto the sand. You've pretty well had a snapshot of all the buggying I've done so far with them. They certainly produce power and park 'n ride a lot sooner than any of my foils. I can only assume this will work against them for high speeds on the beach. Hope to find out soon!

John Holgate - 15-5-2012 at 03:02 AM

Well, finally got the Nasa's on the beach and they surprised the heck out of me. Getting up to the point at Sandy Point and back down almost to Waratah Bay wasn't a problem. (Quite a long section of beach - about 12km in a big curve, so you end up running upwind at one end or the other). Running side by side with Clive on his 4m Flow when I was on the 4m Nasa wing there was maybe 2kph difference in speed - me being faster in the lighter winds and Clive faster in 17-20 knots. Wind range surprised me too....parked it out at the point and pulled my wind meter out 19-22 knots....yet was still reasonably comfy flying it. Smoothed out the gusts nicely. Sat quite deep in the window with a fair bit of side pull so a comfy harness is recommended. Got a 49.7kph with the 4m and 48kph with the 2.5m - I'm sure the Methods would be 10kph faster and go upwind with much more ease, but I was pleasantly surprised at how well the Nasa's did on long runs (I bought them for shorter inland runs where the wind is often gusty). Very stable too. Great kites!

Check out the 'Shoot the Breeze' (in the buggying section) music video to see how well the 4m and 2.5m did on the beach. Just ignore the idiot playing electric guitar on the beach...... :smilegrin:

John Holgate - 3-8-2012 at 04:44 PM

Gave the 10m it's maiden voyage on the weekend in 5-7 knots with the occasional gust to 9. Wow! what a park and ride monster! Launched fairly effortlessly and as soon as I started to move, it just parked with enormous power. Headed slightly upwind towards the point with Cris on his 12.5m Montana (not sure if it's the IV or V). Interestingly, Cris was working the Montana pretty hard and having to occasionally tack - he caught up at one point, then had to tack and after that seemed to drop further and further behind. All this time I just had the 10m parked low in the window. Sorta like being pulled by a tractor! Heaps of side-pull, so it will test how comfy your harness is for sure. Like all the other Nasa Star 2's, it was very responsive to input - not sluggish at all with a very direct feel. Was flying it in the two line configuration with the third depower/flag out line.

Seems to me, the lighter the wind is and the bigger the Nasa Star 2, the more advantage you have over similar size foils. With the 7m currently selling at 179 Euros (kite only) they make for a remarkably good value light wind weapon.

Earlier that day I had gone from the point down to Waratah Bay - a run of nearly 14km - with the 5m Ozone Method and as the wind was dropping down to around 8 knots, I had to work the Method ALL the way down to point. I hadn't been expecting the wind to drop that much, so I hadn't put in the big kites, but I did have the 5.5m Nasa Star 2, so I launched that for the return trip. Straight away, it was park 'n ride away with only one finger needed on the end of the bar to keep it in a straight line. Mind you, half way back to the surf club the wind had dropped to 5 knots and I was having to work the 5.5m a bit......but it still got me back.

Really looking forward to summer coming back and some light wind runs with the 7 & 10m NS 2's. I've had the 7m pulling the buggy nicely in 4-5 knots. Don't know what the low end will be for the 10m - it's got heaps of power in 5 knots.

herc - 4-8-2012 at 01:59 AM

nice story !

as good old peter lynn himself said:

http://peterlynnhimself.com/Kites_For_Yachts.php

Quote:

In very light winds, the NASA type has useful upwind performance when compared to other styles of kites that are used for kitesailing. The reason for this is that, because of their highly cambered form, NASA's develop strong pull even while hanging at their maximum angle to the edge even in very light wind- whereas higher performance kites require to be 'figure eighted' in these conditions, thereby losing much of their effective upwind angle.

http://www.peterlynnkites.co.nz/news/0801news.htm

Quote:

It's true that kites are not equal- some are better in the light than others. The very best light wind fliers are NASA style single skin frameless kites- they fly in winds you can barely feel. When Chris Brent and I tested NASA's against Arcs using identical KiteCats in 2005, we found not only that the NASA's allowed kitesailing in much lighter winds, but that the performance crossover was at much higher wind speed than we expected. NASA's have L/D's of around 3, Arcs >5, but even when the wind was more than enough to allow the Arc to be parked solidly in a corner (+/-15km/hr), a NASA of similar size would still beat it around an upwind/downwind course.

http://www.peterlynnkites.com/news/0507news.htm

Quote:

Another new thing is that we did our first comparative testing with a 15sq.m NASA kite derivative for light wind kitesailing. VERY interesting!: I had expected that as soon as there was enough wind to be able to use a 19m Venom, it would be faster, especially upwind- but this proved not to be so. The cross over was at 5 to 6 kn true wind- well above the Venom’s minimum flying wind. Although the NASA has an L/D (efficiency) of no more than half that of the Venom, even from 2 kn or so it stays up easily - and pulls like a train. All it’s meagre L/D was therefore immediately available for upwind sailing, whereas to stay up in lighter winds, the Venom required figure eighting- thereby losing so much of it’s L/D potential as to drop it below the actual performance of the NASA- which was also the faster kite downwind.
I can see a real niche for kites of this type in very light wind sailing, and we will definitely be carrying this development further now. Of course as soon as the wind rose above the about 6kn crossover, the Venom powered KiteCat disappeared rapidly over any horizon you cared to point it at- but it is surprising how often we sail in lighter winds.

--- thats the reason i fly nasawings a lot lately. they are just more fun in those light summer breezes. and: nasawings are much more tame than other foils when a strong gust hits the kite. they do not accelerate and thus do not explosively jerk you around.

Clive - 4-8-2012 at 03:09 AM

I have seen some footage of your last trip John, interesting about cris not being able to keep up, amazing performance with the 10m NASA, will be looking forward to seeing it in action, BTW 5 knot winds are right in the sweet spot for my 8m toxic, so will give you a run for your money.

John Holgate - 4-8-2012 at 03:12 AM

Thanks for the quotes from those Peter lynn articles, Herc. The Nasa Star 2's may be more efficient than the Nasa wings Peter was using at the time too....

Quote:

nasawings are much more tame than other foils when a strong gust hits the kite. they do not accelerate and thus do not explosively jerk you around.

I definitely felt that should a gust hit, I would have a lot more time to react / pull the flag out/depower line if need be than I would if I was on the 9m Riot. The 10m Nasa Star certainly put a very large grin on my face!!

Quote:

BTW 5 knot winds are right in the sweet spot for my 8m toxic, so will give you a run for your money.

I would assume you'd wipe the floor with me with the 8m Toxic but I'm looking forward to the challenge :smilegrin:

John Holgate - 19-10-2012 at 05:23 PM

And a bit of footage of the 10m. er...some very bumpy footage!

John Holgate - 19-10-2012 at 07:34 PM

And the 4 & 7m....

John Holgate - 20-10-2012 at 02:41 PM

And some footage of the 5.5m with the Libre Vmax...

John Holgate - 12-12-2012 at 02:02 PM

Here's the vid of my afternoon flying the 10, 7 & 5.5m NS 2's at Sandy Point. 4 knots seems to be about the bottom end for the 10m on 20m lines. Next time I get the opportunity, I'll try 40m lines and see if I can get it down to 3 knots....

kitemaker4 - 13-12-2012 at 09:30 AM

From what info that is out there about these kites and how to fly them on a bar am I correct in saying that if you are hooked into the harness the only way to depower the kite is to grab the ball on the third line and pull it towards you. So if you want to depower the kite with the bar then you need to be unhooked. Please correct me and explain if I am wrong.

Susan (npw goddess)

John didn't make the kites but he makes the soundtrack. Kudos!

skimtwashington - 13-12-2012 at 10:33 AM

I think you are correct, Susan. The Video posted on 4/14 in this thread seem to show and somewhat explain.

It's too bad you dont have a system where you can remain hooked to harness to keep power there, and not on your arms while using depower...much like a regular foil depower does.

But It's a very different set up. Basicall y a 3rd 'brake' line(on nose) sliding thru bar hole center vs the powerlines sliding thru same on foil depower.

Seems the only way to depower hooked in(shed some full power) in fixed position with Born Nasa is to steer bar with one hand and pull ball with other hand slowly(too much it will lose all power and collapse). This seems akward.

But flying unhooked you have the depower. Tried Jens and Owen's at WBB.

Susan, you should try and make a depower like these( unless design is patented).

If you never tried one , they are an interesting step up from a simple NASA.

bigkid - 13-12-2012 at 10:38 AM

THEY HAVE A SYSTEM CALLED THE Z-BRIDLE THAT WILL ALLOW YOU TO USE HANDLES.
http://www.venturi-power.de/product_info.php?info=p199_z-bri...

good find..

skimtwashington - 13-12-2012 at 12:16 PM

Just checked it out. Defeats whole depower design.... no depower on quads.. But at least you have an option.

kitemaker4 - 13-12-2012 at 12:48 PM

Thanks for the comformation. Unless you just have to fly with a bar then I do not see any advantages flying that way. It seems that you loose a lot when you are combining the power and brake lines and flying the nasa wing as a two line kite with the third brake line and not a four line kite that had two power and two brake lines. What about launching the kite upside down.

Susan (npw goddess)

Quote:

Originally posted by skimtwashington
I think you are correct, Susan. The Video posted on 4/14 in this thread seem to show and somewhat explain.

It's too bad you dont have a system where you can remain hooked to harness to keep power there, and not on your arms while using depower...much like a regular foil depower does.

But It's a very different set up. Basicall y a 3rd 'brake' line(on nose) sliding thru bar hole center vs the powerlines sliding thru same on foil depower.

Seems the only way to depower hooked in(shed some full power) in fixed position with Born Nasa is to steer bar with one hand and pull ball with other hand slowly(too much it will lose all power and collapse). This seems akward.

But flying unhooked you have the depower. Tried Jens and Owen's at WBB.

Susan, you should try and make a depower like these( unless design is patented).

If you never tried one , they are an interesting step up from a simple NASA.

skimtwashington - 13-12-2012 at 01:18 PM

Great point Susan. :thumbup:

The control of Quad over the bar is superior. Adding a depower to the bar does nothing for contol in manuevering, really... but more for just power control or emergency release.

More interesting than a 'step up'. Maybe mispoke with that!

If you look at the Z-bridal set up.....it seem there are bridals that connect to both power(indirectly) and brake at same time... so probaly flys slightly different than standard quad set up Nasa...But more or less-independent power and brake line control

John Holgate - 13-12-2012 at 02:01 PM

The Z bridle was only ever intended for people without quad experience - you can certainly rig the kite up as a standard four line (without the Z bridle) which takes care of the upside down launching.

I do not find the 'depower' particularly useful when flying although I have had to grab the red ball on a couple of occasions. And yes, to use the bar to depower, you have to unhook which is a little awkward. I treat it more as a sort of 'flag out' option to land the kite - which is a little messy but always works. The trouble is with the depower is it makes the kite slow down and sit back in the window which is the opposite from a normal depower.

On one occasion when flying the 10m, I got hit by a gust and dragged towards some trees - I hit the safety and dumped the kite onto the depower/flag out line which immediately dumped all the power from the kite - so the system certainly has it's merits - you just have to get used to treating it a little differently.

I'm not sure if I've posted this video - flying on handles in a standard four line config...

So you can fly it standard way!

skimtwashington - 13-12-2012 at 07:05 PM

Hello down under, John..... from Up Over....and just to the left!

Lots of options then with this NASA- Fair Dinkum!

Thanks for sharing.

I went to the NASA Space center in Cocoa Beach Florida and showed them my NASA wing and they said,"What is it?" :o

I said,"first off..this is yours..."

John Holgate - 13-12-2012 at 08:08 PM

Quote:

Unless you just have to fly with a bar then I do not see any advantages flying that way. It seems that you loose a lot when you are combining the power and brake lines and flying the nasa wing as a two line kite with the third brake line and not a four line kite that had two power and two brake lines.

When flying the Nasa's on the bar, I do miss the convenience of pulling the brakes and parking the kite on it's rear. But in return for that, I get to sit quite straight in the buggy (I always find myself turned towards the kite with handles) and control with one hand is easy - which leaves me free to film/wave/gesticulate ! etc or wrap my other arm around the side rail. So for my style of riding, the bar is perfect. It's just a little more inconvenient when landing - I tend to fly it down to edge of the window, dump it onto it's third line then go and sand the kite. If I was putting the kite down all the time, then the handles would be far more convenient.

I've messed about with the turbo bar and a depower bar with dubious results although I haven't tried using the Z bridle set up with a depower bar....that could be interesting.

There's always more than one way to skin the proverbial cat.

herc - 14-12-2012 at 02:58 AM

turbo-bar + nasastar2 in 4line mode doesnt work well ?
thats a pity.. would be a perfect setup - one handed riding, but still the ability to stall (land) the kite or to release a bit of brake tension to let it fly forwards.

my personal experience: flying the nasastar2 on a bar is fine, if you have smooth, stable wind.
but if the find is very gusty as its typical for my inland conditions, its much better to fly the nasastar in quad mode. now that dreaded backwards-flying of nasawings can be avoided by easing off the brakes a little. i get the backwardsflying usually if the wind drops below a certain limit. then the kite backstalls. but it does not only backstall, but starts flying backwards if the wind pics up again. the most annoying property of nasawings in 2line mode ! all that goes away if flying in 4line mode.

what i like about nasawings: they fly in almost nil wind, have good power per squaremeter (much more than other kites) and are extremely stable especially on a short or no line setup. this makes them the perfect match for kiting in thight spots . who would have thought that? nasawings enabled a new sport or at least gave it recently a name: "streetkiting".

John Holgate - 14-12-2012 at 04:39 AM

Quote:

i get the backwardsflying usually if the wind drops below a certain limit. then the kite backstalls. but it does not only backstall, but starts flying backwards if the wind pics up again. the most annoying property of nasawings in 2line mode ! all that goes away if flying in 4line mode.

Yep, ditto that. If I try and hold the kite stationary in light wind, it can start flying backwards. A bit more wind and no problem otherwise I just consciously keep it moving - and I'm normally on 20m lines so it's no real problem.

I'll try and experiment a bit more with a 4 line depower bar in combo with the Z bridles and see what happens...

Prussik - 14-12-2012 at 09:33 AM

The main problem with the Nasa's depower system is that to be fully functional the load is on the arms - both uncomfortable and with potential safety issues. Otherwise it is one hand operation. While not particularly convenient with a bar it is quite ok with handles since only one (downwind) hand is needed to control the kite (other than the moments when both brakes need to be applied) so that there is a free hand available to pull on the nose line. At Wind Propulsion Institute we have used this 5 line configuration and it works well giving the advantage of brakes as well as "nose" power control. The 5 line has adjustable length to adjust the static power while the additional pull with the free hand controls dynamic power. Peronally, in my typically low drag (i.e. low force) applications I have not much use for dynamic power control but the 5-th line conveniently controls the kite size. I have also used short, 4 m line set in this configuration and it works very well - the difficulty being in maintaining high speed jibes - quite difficult with short lines with any kite.

John Holgate - 14-12-2012 at 02:59 PM

Quote:

While not particularly convenient with a bar it is quite ok with handles since only one (downwind) hand is needed to control the kite (other than the moments when both brakes need to be applied)

Exactly how do you do that? If I'm flying on handles I need to maintain pressure on the brakes as well as the power lines - I don't believe I am able to fly a nasa wing on handles with one hand.....unless I rigged up a strop and pulley in just the right spot on the handles. But when on handles, the depower system is not used (nor needed).

Quote:

so that there is a free hand available to pull on the nose line.

You're running a fifth line with handles?

Prussik - 15-12-2012 at 09:43 AM

I am yet to come across a kite that requires a continuous brake pressure. If I ever find one it will only tell me that the canopy is poorly designed and, if for some reason I had to use it, I would simply shorten the brake lines so I would not have to pull on them. The Nasa in question flies perfectly ok with handles and one hand, no brake input required just like any other FB.

5-th line provides depower feature (for someone who needs it) more efficiently than brakes do. It reduces the usable window less than brakes do and so lessens the effect of increase in parasitic side pull. The length can be adjusted to provide a reduced pull from a kite too big for the conditions in addition to the option of depower with the free hand.

bigkid - 15-12-2012 at 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prussik
I am yet to come across a kite that requires a continuous brake pressure. If I ever find one it will only tell me that the canopy is poorly designed and.....

Not sure I understand the your statement, you talking about the nasa wings or all fb's?

I have found that the Z-bridle(I set up the same type of thing on one of my NPW's before I switched to the PKD handles) is more or less opposite the bar. With the bar and the line to the nose, it will kill the kite rather quick. The Z-bridle set up will kill the kite also but with the brakes. Looks to be the determining factor is are you a bar or handle flyer? Both work quite well for the kite.

You can park and ride with the Z-bridle/handles if you use a strop. I use that type of idea with mine and find it is doable with one hand or no hands if I need to make a sandwich or answer the phone while riding.
For me the greatest ease of the NPW's that Susan makes is that they require brakes, much like the Rev's. One way to over come that is to move the strop down the handle towards the brakes until it balances out the kite. If your handles have the ability to adjust the brakes as the PKD handles you can tighten up the brakes as you fly until the kite balances out and it is now the same as if on a bar, one handed flying. I have set up all my NPW's this way, I like to adjust the brakes out just a hair so the kite runs about 75% and use the brakes to turn on the gas. Something about one handed flying for me that is a bit uneasy, I feel better with both hands on the handles. Not that I am hanging on for dear life, just keep the fingers on the handles to feather the kite if the wind isn't clean.

I am waiting for a couple of the Born kites to show up for a bit of playing, bar and Z-bridle to boot.

Proletariat - 8-1-2013 at 02:59 PM

Doh. I just posted an NPW question in the other forum about best 0(3) wind NPW size. Correct me if I'm wrong, John, but the answer is basically "as big as you can?"

herc - 8-1-2013 at 03:27 PM

because of the high camber of nasawings, they usually have much higher "pull" than a similiar sized open cell foil. my suggestion would be max 12 sqm, if you have very smooth but weak coastal winds.
with gusty inland winds, i would suggest a 7 sqm or 10 sqm nasawing in quad mode and on long lines. quad mode, because in lulls you can release the brakes a bit and avoid stalling and subsequent backwards flying of the nasawing ...

its true: of no other foil can fly, you can still have some limited fun with a big nasawing... for example using ski on hardpacked snow or ice; inline skates on smooth asphalt etc.

John Holgate - 9-1-2013 at 09:18 PM

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, John, but the answer is basically "as big as you can?

For buggying, yes. For static flying......maybe. If you put up a 15m Nasa in light winds, once you get it moving, it may have too much pull for general friends and family so it may be an idea to have something around the 5m mark for those duties (which will still fly in 3-4mph or so) and a 7 or 10 or 12 for yourself.

Of course the two things that weigh heavily in the Nasa's favor are: they're (relatively) dirt cheap (I think around 179 Euros for the 7m kite only) so you could get a few different sizes. And you can plow them nose down into the ground with no fear of something bursting.

I'm not convinced that Nasa's have more pull than foil kites. It's just that they produce their pull at much slower speeds, and deeper in the window than an equivalent foil. When running my 4m Nasa Star 2 against a 4m Ozone Flow, the Nasa seemed to perform better in 13knots or less where as the Flow had an advantage in 18-20 knots. Mind you, there was only ever a couple of mph between the two kites regardless of wind speed, upwind or downwind.

One thing to mention that may or may not be an advantage - they have very little lift when above your head. Great for slowing the buggy down quickly without fear of getting lofted. Not so good if you're trying to jump with one! In fact, I think you can pretty well forget jumping altogether with these....in sane conditions anyway.

Edit: After having a few sessions recently at my local beach, I was quite surprised by the Nasa Star's upwind ability. Providing you are carrying a fair bit of power, I did not feel I was getting much further upwind with any of my low to mid aspect foils. I had originally felt that I might lose 10-15 percent of my upwind ability compared to a foil but now I feel that it's much less than that.....providing you're well powered.

PistolPete - 15-1-2013 at 09:18 PM

4m Yellow and a mountian board...may be too small.

5.5m Red and a longboard looks better.
(John is in the credits for music).

7m Blue in no wind and a longboard, maybe not so fun.

Instant pull and not much apparent wind effect.

John Holgate - 16-1-2013 at 01:47 PM

Quote:

Instant pull and not much apparent wind effect.

The apparent wind effect certainly kicks in with the buggy on the beach. If the wind is too light to park and ride straight away, it usually doesn't take too much working of the kite before it 'locks in'. Mind you, unlike the videos, I have 20m lines, giving me heaps more room to work the kite in the window.

I've only tried the short/no lines in the buggy once - I had been cruising up and down the paddock with 20m lines on the 2.5m and just before I finished, I tried the 4m straight off the bar......and couldn't move the buggy at all!

First time I ever flew the 4m, I had it on 6m lines and thought.....meh, not much pull there. Then I put it on 20m lines......HUGE difference.

PistolPete - 16-1-2013 at 10:02 PM

Thanks John,

To clarify it appears the nasa shortline advantage on a longboard/landboard is for small spaces, no sine needed, direct power delivery (not an advantage if gusty...), and simple. Apparent wind is about the same as actual wind as the longboard is travelling quite slowly.

From this:

To this:

I assume your buggy can get you moving more like this?

Looks like longboarding/flying the nasa on the shortlines almost horizontally, the tension and drag vectors are near max while the lift and weight vectors are very small.

Was just trying to see in the videos real life conditions and what size might be best...a 5.5m foil kite on 20m lines and a longboard on pavement might be a handful :yes:

herc - 17-1-2013 at 03:13 AM

from my limited experience using nasawings and inline skates:

1. with skates (and probably longboard) on asphalt you need very little pull to get rolling and you accelerate rapidly.
2. with nasawing on short lines, you can very quickly regulate the angle of the kite relative to the horizon. if you feel that you are getting too fast, you can simply (and quickly!!) place the kite from a horizontal 0°, accelerating position to a vertical, 90° position that just generates lift and no forward acceleration.
3. you can even place it "behind" at 120° to get a braking effect...
4. because of the properties of the nasawing (high camber, rather high AoA) it is rather stable on short / no lines.. using for example a opencell like PL twister, i frequently got front collapes because in gusts the kite wants to fly out of the window.. you can watch it of course and brake to avoid that, but its really much more relaxing with a nasawing, that simply sits there deep(er) in the window and does no nasty things ...

John Holgate - 17-1-2013 at 04:44 AM

Quote:

Thanks John, To clarify it appears the nasa shortline advantage on a longboard/landboard is for small spaces, no sine needed, direct power delivery (not an advantage if gusty...), and simple. Apparent wind is about the same as actual wind as the longboard is travelling quite slowly.

Sounds about right to me, but as I don't use them that way, I would be guided by what Herc says.

I can tell you that once up to speed, with a 5.5m on 20m lines, there is a LOT of side pull. And to comfortably go upwind, you need to be well powered - at least with the buggy on sand. But as Herc says, you can throw the kite up and a little behind you without too much fear of getting launched out of the buggy and it makes for a very good brake.

I would guess that the closer the kite is to you, the more disturbed the airflow will be - which looks apparent to me from watching the videos.

As for throwing vector graphs at me.....that's just evil! :smilegrin:

Herc is right

skimtwashington - 17-1-2013 at 07:27 AM

.. and sums up the advantages of short lined Nasa wings nicely.

Apparently has enough, if limited experience! :thumbup:

bigkid - 17-1-2013 at 09:35 AM

I agree with Herc for the most part.
I think in the vids the reason for the no line use of the kite is for the ease of seeing the kite and the boarder in the same shot. Makes understanding of the workings of all parts easier to understand. Granted longer lines will increase power and will also decrease control to a point and then moves in the opposite direction as the lines get longer and longer. Not sure of the Born-Kites in relationship to short/long lines as I am still waiting for my order. But with the NPWs I had made by Susan, that is my findings.
The kite has to travel trough the window to generate power. I have buggied at NABX with nothing more than opening my coat. Was I able to go upwind or out and back? NO. I only went in the direction the wind was blowing. I couldnt generate any power. If I could put some string on my coat and fly it from side to side, then I would be able to generate some power to go out and back.
The fact that the vids show a boarder on a hard surface is OK for the vid, but on grass or sand the factors change. Wouldn't be a good vid for the sales department if not on asphalt. Also, using any kite on lines in an are as closed in as the vids show would not be a wise choice. I get a bit overwhelmed with 200' plus at Alvord or Ivanpah let alone the beach.

bigkid - 17-1-2013 at 09:41 AM

Anyone in the PNW that has a desire to try out the Born-Kites, let me know. I will have them to demo and will be bringing them to NABX, WWBB, and Jibe.
PistolPete, we can meet at Marymoor and cruise the bike path with them. :yes:

We can make our own vids.:bigok:

PistolPete - 17-1-2013 at 02:27 PM

All great insight, herc seems to put it in words very well.

Sorry about the math John, that was kind of evil :ticking:

Marymoor bike path no lines and soccer field with lines would be fun sometime Jeff.

Some other no-liners :spin:

John Holgate - 22-2-2013 at 02:37 AM

I've always had a little difficulty when landing the Nasa Star 2's with the third (depower) line...the kite tends to drift back to the center of the window in a bit of a heap. Turns out there's an easy way to do it.....

bigkid - 22-2-2013 at 06:53 AM

they sent this one and another to me the other day when I asked about landing them. I was under the idea the depower/center line was about landing. Wrong.
Still very happy with the new kites:bigok:

Proletariat - 22-2-2013 at 08:45 PM

So... Bar or handles, bigkid?

bigkid - 23-2-2013 at 01:34 AM

I got all 4 sizes and both bars along with the string thing setup for the handles. I have only had time to fly the kites with the basic bar set up with 20m lines. Now that I got a bit of time with the kites I hope to get out for a bit of time with the depower bar and the handle setup in a few days.
I did have a good go at the 7m on the bar without a kite killer. everyone else that day was out with 8-10m FB kites and the 7m was a bit to much even at the zenith while lifting me up a bit more than I wanted for the moment. Ended up bugging with the cute little green one. :yes:

I defiantly want to play a lot more with them, I will have them at the next 4 events(NABX, WW, JIBE, SOBB) if any off you have any interest.

lesticx - 22-3-2013 at 04:45 AM

Would this work with an ozone turbo bar? There you have brake control, and even control of individual brakes to a degree.
I'm very interested in Nasa wings, I just think that snowboarding and handles gets a bit too difficult so I'd prefer a bar..

herc - 22-3-2013 at 05:33 AM

with proper tuning, it will work for sure with the turbobar. but the brakes on nasawings have a very sharp "sweet spot" where it will fly without flutter.

maybe John could make a video, because he has both - nasawings and a turbo bar ?

bigE123 - 22-3-2013 at 07:34 AM

There is a mod you can do to Nasawings, dual the brake bridle line ups. By that I mean run a separate bidle line to the power line group. This then means it will fly with more "slack" brake lines rather than a constant input to keep the TE tension.

Prussik - 22-3-2013 at 08:58 AM

That's what z-bridle does in Nasa Star eliminating any brake pull unless brakes applied. There would be a substantial brake pull without it because brake lines control more of the trailing part of the kite rather than just a trailing edge. For that reason rigging it in 4 lines without z-bridle has little merit. I shortened the power side of the z-bridle by 1 cm (in a 4m kite) getting wider window i.e. less side pull and decreasing the tendency to backfly especially when underpowered on short lines. I still have to experiment a little to find the optimal differential brake /power lengths.

John Holgate - 22-3-2013 at 03:40 PM

I have tried on a couple of occasions to fly the Nasa Star 2 on a turbo bar and did not like the results. I find them far too twitchy to fly by steering them mainly by the brakes.

The three line bar configuration works very well.

I also rigged them up on the HQ Apex depower bar - again, trying to steer them with brake lines was too twitchy and reversing it and having the brake lines through the center also proved less than satisfactory.

Then I tried both brake lines and power lines to the bar ends with a brake strap in between the brake lines - the idea was that I could pull the brake strap, land the kite on it's trailing edge and wrap the brake strap around a buggy wheel while I took a break. That worked really well until a gust put just enough pressure on the brake lines to make the kite fly backwards while I was doing 40kph forwards and resulted in a bit of a mess.

I fixed that by using the Z bridle config:

So now I have been running brake and power lines to the bar ends with a separate brake line also to the bar ends with the brake strap between them. That seems to solve the 'kite flying backwards' senario (although it can still do that in light winds if you don't keep it moving) and allows me to park and secure the kite more easily than using the third depower line. - that's the setup in the video.

Interestingly, on this stretch of beach the day before I was using a 2m Ozone Octane and getting a fair way up the beach as it curved into the wind. The wind backed off a little and I swapped to the Nasa Star 2.5m - I didn't expect to get as far upwind but I ended up being able to go further upwind than the Octane. Their upwind ability keeps on surprising me.

dimpapadop - 16-9-2013 at 12:27 PM

hallo from Greece.
My name is Dimitrios and I'm into snowkiting, landboarding, kitesurfing etc. I fly a Matrixx HQ 15m, Neo Hq 11m, Montana 9.5m V.

I am interested in the nasa star 2 (mostly for narrow spaces, or when the wind is not safe for big foils, etc). Do you think a Nasa star 2 kite can take you uphill with skis? I cannot find anything for uphill skiing with npw kites.

Do you believe this can be achieved also @ steetkite mode? (safer for mountains)

with my big foils i manage uphill some quite stiff slopes, especially if the wind is in my back (looping) or side 90 degrees to ascending.

thank you in advance.

John Holgate - 16-9-2013 at 02:46 PM

Hi Dimitrios,

The Nasa Star 2 should easily pull you up the hills with skis. At slow speeds, the Nasa's generate more pull than most foils because of their very low aspect ratio so they will be ideal in smaller areas where there is not as much room to work the kite.

I don't, however, think it will work in 'streetkite' mode - which I believe you mean attaching the kite directly to the bar. In streetkite mode, all of the footage that I've seen is on pavement, footpaths and roads where you do not need much power to get going - I think you would still need 15m or so of lines to give you room to swing the kite around to get you going on snow. To give an example - I was buggying in a paddock at home with the 2.5m on 20m lines in 16 knots or so with ease....then I swapped to the 4m but ran it straight from the bar and I just couldn't get going at all. I've also run the 2.5m on very short (6m) lines in the buggy on a dry lake bed - had to work the kite furiously to gain momentum but once the buggy got up to 25kph or thereabouts, the kite really surged with power.

Send an email to Steffen at Born-kites and ask him about the NS2's in Snow - I believe he does a bit of skiing with them.

John Holgate - 16-9-2013 at 02:55 PM

By the way, I've rigged the NS 2's back to the 3 line mode after seeing the video that Steffen made about landing on the side of the window. I just hook the bar end around a footpeg and the kite stays put. Even if it's gusty and the kite rolls around a bit, it still finds it's way back to the edge of the window.

dimpapadop - 17-9-2013 at 02:04 AM

thank you John.
Some more questions for you because i see you tested a lot of them.
- Can you still use the streetbar with extension lines? (i see extension lines for that bar) will it be safe? Emergency line with the leash will be efficient then?
- Which way does the kite fly better?
- with or without Zbridle Do you think will it fly good with a crossover bar like http://shop.eolo.com/en/kites/accesories-spare-parts/power-k...
- Do you think a Depower bar, untouched (in 3 line mode) - i have 3-4 bars from my HQ's can work if you use the Center line of the bar (Power for the depower foils) as Brake for the nasa star 2 and use it to control the Sigma - Pi - Delta shape of the wing? (from what i see it must work)

John Holgate - 17-9-2013 at 05:24 AM

I think you should be able to use the streetbar with any extensions lines....not 100% sure on that...

I have flown it 4 line mode on handles and it's fine. With or without Z bridle is all ok.

Have tried Ozone Turbo bar without Z bridle - no good, kite does not like being steered mainly by brakes and I don't think it will work with the crossover bar....although it might with the Z bridle...have also tried a std depower bar without the z bridle (in four line mode without using the center depower line on the NS2) with the same results as the turbo bar.

You can rig it on a depower bar but, all the power is on ends of the bar (3rd line through the center) so you'll need a trapeze line to hook yourself to the bar otherwise your arms will tire out pretty quick. Now, having said that, Steffen has just released a new depower system which spreads the load 50/50 between the center line and power lines - I haven't had the chance to use it yet but it looks like it will be close to a normal depower setup. Here: http://www.venturi-power.de/product_info.php?info=p215_pro-d...

I have also run a depower bar by putting the NS2 in four line mode and running both power and brakes to the bar ends with a brake handle strap between the brake lines (also attached to a leash) and a trapeze to hook the bar to (see the last video) I used the Z bridle with this setup so I had power AND brakes on one pair of lines and a separate brake line to the other - a bit complicated to explain but that worked fine. After seeing Steffen's launch and landing on the side of the window video, I've gone back to the std 3 line setup.

There's probably a few more different ways to rig the kite to a bar that I haven't thought of but either way, I think you'll end up modifying a normal depower bar to make it work.

bigkid - 17-9-2013 at 07:15 AM

As with any kite and trying to make it work with a different style bar, you have to remember that the size of a kite in relation to the bar is rather important. The Z Bridal is a certain size in respect to the kites themselves.
it changes the reaction time of the kite itself. That's why certain bars don't work with the NASA wings.

I did try the NASA wings in snow and I found a couple little quirks about them. What are the things I found was that as the wind increases the power increases the kites do not perform as far into the window as it wood at a lower wind speed.
I was using a 15 metre NPW while everybody else was using 18 meter and larger depower kites, I found the rolling hills made it hard to keep the kite inflated as the other kites. Hard to step back and relaunch with a snowboard on. On a flat opened area the N PW would do a much much better job then a lot of the others .

bigE123 - 21-9-2013 at 04:04 AM

A comment you made there stopped me for a moment bigkid. "The Z Bridal is a certain size in respect to the kites themselves. " Do you know why this is? I was under the impression that one size would fit all, as long as the length of the Z bridle allows full handle movement, i.e. from no brake to full brake or have I missed something?

herc - 30-9-2013 at 08:08 AM

the z-bridle probably is adjusted such that without brake input it is depowered as much as possbile without the nasawing starting to flap.

bigkid - 30-9-2013 at 08:50 AM

As I said, the Z bridle is one size and the kites are different sizes. I bought one and then made up 4 of them, one for each kite. I found that they had to be adjusted for each kite if I wanted them to act the same way. Flying them on the bar is the same for all the sizes because the lines are long enough to not be a problem, but the Z bridle is so short it responds a bit different on each size. Most people wouldnt realize the difference unless they were as picky as I am. Comparing 2 kites days or weeks apart is not a comparison in my world. Do it the same time, same place, same setup, the same way is the only way to compare kites in my world. That what I did with the Susan Specials and the Born Kites.
That way you can gauge how far into the window they fly, the zenith, speed from side to side, and power.
Most of the time I do this with another person next to me as we both fly different kites and then we switch kites to see how they compare with each other, kites and persons.

John Holgate - 12-10-2013 at 03:30 AM

Got my hands on the 1.5m Nasa Star 2 the other day and have given it a few flys. Just like it's bigger brothers - wonderfully stable. Pulls hard and tracks like it's on rails. will need about 20 knots for the buggy - which I'm looking forward to. Will get a short video together.

Also had a chance to play with the new 'pro depower bar' setup Link to page which splits the force 50/50 between the harness and bar ends....and there's a little quick release to attach the bar to your harness (instead of the trapeze loop) so you end up with all the force at your harness. Push the little red ball away, the bar detaches and engages the depower - similar to the standard 3 line bar except that you're using a normal chicken loop/donkey dick setup. You can fly with the bar floating if you want to take advantage of the depower function.

I'll post up a pic of the pulley setup - it had me scratching my head when I set it up, but am becoming more and more impressed with it.

John Holgate - 12-10-2013 at 04:20 PM

A quick look at the 1.5m here:

I'll do a separate vid of the new bar setup soon...

IMK - 12-10-2013 at 05:32 PM

Nice vid there John. Can't wait to fly mine.

loftywinds - 16-10-2013 at 05:44 AM

Hi John. I tried a Nasa 3mtr here and poah! It has power!
But I found it very hard to keep it up wind on my landboard (I don't have a buggy). Anyone else been land kiting with the NASAs and how have you managed to keep yourself upwind? Thanks. Great thread here.

John Holgate - 16-10-2013 at 01:53 PM

To get upwind, you need power. They sit deep in the window and pull really hard on the harness. I have the advantage of sitting low in the buggy and having a side rail to brace against. On a landboard......hmmmmm.....that could be interesting....! Herc and BigE may have some tips?

bigE123 - 17-10-2013 at 12:45 AM

Quote:

But I found it very hard to keep it up wind on my landboard (I don't have a buggy). Anyone else been land kiting with the NASAs and how have you managed to keep yourself upwind? Thanks. Great thread here.

The holy grail of a single skin kite is how to get that extra bit of window for upwind, I'm afraid I can't give you much advice on landboarding as I went to buggying, I don't bounce as well as I used to and ended up breaking my wrist stopping a face plant off the board (looking back I should have been more confident with the kite before I went to a board).
As John says for the buggy you can go more over powered and use the extra power at the edge rather than having the kite sitting in the real power zone where it maybe too much. If I need to get up wind I really edge the buggy on the verge of it breaking sideways, then I try and gain as much upwind distance as I can on my turns using the speed I'm carrying, then you won't loose any ground as you turn. It's not easy but you end up allowing for the lack of upwind and working around it.

loftywinds - 19-10-2013 at 05:32 PM

Thanks BigE. That's how I am doing it now with my Montana 5. Upwind is no problem, even in 20knots. But I do have to keep her near the window's edge otherwise I am overpowered and tempted to jump as well. With a NASA though, I tried to keep it at the edge on 12knots once and it really struggled with me and wanted to stay in the power zone. Mind you I did not have a depower bar setup, just a FB control bar at the time.

John Holgate - 19-10-2013 at 07:32 PM

I've never flown a Nasa other than the Born-kite ones, so I can't say if they travel upwind easier than, say, an NPW 5.... In a northerly the other week at Trug, I had no problem with the 2.5m doing loops around the lookout and getting back to the main SW part of the field although I waited till the wind came up a bit to do that.

John Holgate - 8-11-2013 at 03:24 PM

Had my greedy mitts on the Pro Depower bar setup for the Nasa Star 2's recently. An unusual, but very effective way of managing the center depower line on the NS2. Connection to the harness is via a chicken loop - which I think is much better than the trapeze loop I had been using. You can have the bar 'free' to make use of the depower on the fly or hook it to the chicken loop for full power (which is what I do) and easily release the bar to completely depower the kite when needed. There are some color coded markers on the center line so you can set the bar stopper at the appropriate spot for each size kite. When using the bar un-attached to the chicken loop, the power is spread 50/50 between the bar ends and the center line.

As the Nasa's handle the gusts really well, I don't tend to use the depower system unless I need to completely depower the kite.

I have the Pro Depower setup on an older 'Caution' bar and Ozone lines that I had. Video here:

Also, had a chance to run the 1.5m in 25-35 knots and was very impressed with it's stability. Could even do a bit of filming while I was flying which I would never try with my 1.5m Imp which is quite manic by comparison. Also got a chance to use both safetys when hit by a nasty squall - hit the primary safety, then decided that I did not want to be attached to anything in that wind, so hit the second safety - kite didn't go far. 20km or so away, Wilson's Prom recorded gusts of over 120kph at the same time.

The next morning, I buggy'd upwind out to the point and back with the Access XT 4m which was pretty twitchy and slow going upwind. Got back and swapped to the 2.5m NS2 and ran out to the point again. The 2.5m was a lot more stable and grunty in the low end, nearly as fast upwind but a bit slower downwind. In the gusty conditions, I preferred the 2.5m NS2 - which I ran for the rest of the morning.

dimpapadop - 2-12-2013 at 10:42 AM

hallo.

Is anyone using the nasa stars 2 on snow with skis / snb?
If yes, can you describe them to us? (uphill, power etc) comparing to foils?
If no, do you know or found resources of other flyers?

i rarely find videos on snow with them.

alf - 26-1-2014 at 04:20 PM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&...
A mast improved upwind performance wiew from 3 m 14 s

A de power bar works extremly well.''with 4 lines nasa

John Holgate - 2-2-2014 at 07:02 PM

Here's a vid showing all the sizes and a couple in 'streetkiting' mode (straight off the bar) which Mark is enjoying with the landboard. He seems to be getting up to park 'n ride speed pretty quickly with the large wheels on the landboard.

I actually managed to catch up and pass a couple buggiers heading upwind using 4m Ozone access's with my 2.5m NS2.......until they figured out I was using the compressed air on top of the dune for extra speed....once that trick was figured out I was left looking at their rear tyres....sigh..... !

The little 1.5m really saved the day for me on the claypan on a couple days where we had winds gusting to nearly 30 knots and I had a couple of great light wind sessions of 3.5 - 7 knots or so with the 10m

3shot - 19-10-2014 at 01:53 PM

John. I know its an older thread, but did you find you needed different size Z bridles with different size NS2?

John Holgate - 20-10-2014 at 02:07 PM

Quote:

John. I know its an older thread, but did you find you needed different size Z bridles with different size NS2?

I've only run the 2.5 and 4m on 4 lines with the Z bridles and they were the same length. I think if you've got a 5" bridle on the lower Z, it should give you 10" of throw when you point the handles at the kite - that should be enough I would have thought. No point having more throw available than your handles can give. You could probably size your Z bridle setup for the largest kite and it should work for all (you probably will just need smaller movements on the smaller sizes).

I think the ones that Steffen supplied would have been either 6 or 8" ? - they worked just fine too.

3shot - 21-10-2014 at 05:07 AM

Thank you John!

Prussik - 21-10-2014 at 11:14 AM

The lengths of z-bridles (40 cm in stock configuration) is obviously more than enough for brake control. What matters more is the relative length of each part – brake vs. power side. Again, in stock configuration they are equal which – in my opinion – results in excessive brake side pull. The effect of this is the tendency to back flying and tail crashing in underpowered conditions what is quite easy to observe. What is less immediately visible but much more important is that this effect, in combination with too steep AOA, results in narrowing of the window and excessive sidepull. Now, if you start adjusting these relative lengths than the optimal combination will depend on the kite size.

3shot - 21-10-2014 at 02:16 PM

Good info prussik!