Power Kite Forum - Are big kites worth the big headaches?

Are big kites worth the big headaches?

dandre - 28-3-2012 at 07:10 AM

So I've never seen this topic come up except in passing,

Do you think bigger kites(15m+/19m+ARC) are worth all the hassle of luging them around, longer setup times, working HUGE kites in little air, fickle "on" window..

Is there truly a "low wind" kite?
I feel like thats kind of an oxymoron now with a little experience.

I can see the value on water.. Larger LEIs seem to turn a little faster but I'm not sure about RAM yet(I never tried inflating/very expensive new models)

I'm thinking, if you have a 9/13 and a 13m isn't cutting the mustard is it REALLY worth flying if the 13m won't go?

granted weight issues always come in, but as a 170pound rider, I can't imagine needing anything more than 13m, unless I'm trying to go big in light light wind, which once again... I feel like is a little kite fantasy

dandre - 28-3-2012 at 07:13 AM

Are we just kidding ourselves trying to work a frustrating session, when it's really not worth the effort?
Are big kites really THAT great?

I feel like jumping to FB at that point is just a much better choice

ragden - 28-3-2012 at 07:43 AM

Really a matter of personal opinion and conjecture.

For me, on the water, it is definitely worth having the 15m S3 Deluxe. There have been many fun sessions I would not have been able to do without that kite. I enjoy it immensely.

Ask anyone who has been at the WildWood Buggy Bash when winds are light. Most folks are sitting and watching while I cruise the beach doing 20mph. Only the folks with big kites were riding.

I think it is worth my time. But you may not. Like I said, personal opinion. I'd rather ride.

flyguy0101 - 28-3-2012 at 07:51 AM

Just spent 4 days flying and brought all of my kites (watch for upcoming sales) and flew my 19m v2 and never took another kite out of the truck- had one day winds in the 20s was really fun, and other days winds were 10-15 so yes big kites are worth it for me.
Scott

BeamerBob - 28-3-2012 at 07:56 AM

I have a weekend I'll never forget that I spent with Angus on Jekyll Island with light winds. We rode our 10.8m Reactor IIs the whole day in the mid 20s range with 4-7 mph winds. Nothing smaller would've given us that good ride in those winds. The next day, we stepped down to our 8.6m RIIs because the wind was 9-11. Still well powered and still a smaller kite wouldn't have done the job except maybe a race kite which would've been fine with the smooth onshore winds.

So yes, I have had many days that I rode with a "wall of power" at my side that without the large kites, I would've been doing something much less fun.

Feyd - 28-3-2012 at 08:04 AM

HEHEHEHE, wow D, did you just have a bad light wind session or what?

For Arcs IMO big kites are totally worth the effort especially with arcs like 19m Charger or the 24m Phantom 2 where they actually make a turn before the end of the day. The inflation part is an issue and some say "if there isn't enough wind to inflate my arc it's not worth even trying to fly." I use an inflator on all my wings because its fast and we never have steady winds to inflate the normal PL way. So for me it's not a change from my normal procedure beyound the extra time to inflate the extra volume. I've had some really good cruising days on the 19m Venoms, Syns, Charger and now the 24m Ph2 that I would have missed if I didn't have those kites. If Molly is on the 19m Charger I ride the 24m Ph2. If I'm on the 19m Charger she'll ride the 15m Ph2. So if you ride with you smarter half it's good to have the sizes.

Last season was so windless we were on big kites probably 40% of the time.

Then, take into account days when the conditions warrant more power like if you're on the water or in deep snow a big kite can be a ton of fun.

And we can't talk light wind without taking into acct. kites like Speed 3 SAs and Psycho 4 SAs. Molly's 19m P4 is a sweet low wind rig and there is something to be said for being well powered on days when you can't even hear the wind when you stop moving. My Big Blu Arc and the 24m do a good job compared to the FS's but they have just fly a little bit better in the stupid light winds. If the 24m were mad of the same material I think it would be closer to even.

Then there's the 12m Ranger which still amazes me how well it flies in light wind.

No doubt, a FB would be a good choice on those days. Especially if the wind isn't going to pick up. But where I live there are no sure things about the wind and I don't want to get caught out with a big FB and have the winds spool up from 5mph to 20mph.

I agree tho, I hate light wind flying and this is the first year that I've actually let a few days go where I could have flown but didn't because poking around at 8mph didn't interest me. I hate working the hell out of a big kite in the window. If I have to work the hell out of it then I'm not interested anymore unless I have to be.

If given a choice though, @200lbs I'd go with a 15m Arc before I'd go with a 12 or 13m.

revpaul - 28-3-2012 at 08:31 AM

some folks can easily pick/choose when to go ride, some can't.
so when the occaision(perhaps mainly time permitting and not so much ideal winds) to ride presents itself the "can't" folks will need to have kite to cover as great a range as possible.

g00fba11 - 28-3-2012 at 08:57 AM

My favorite kites are in the "big" sizes. If I didn't have these there would be many days I would be just sitting around. Had great fun on the lake this winter with my 19m Venom.

Also really like my 18m Phantom, 18m Guerilla 2 and my 17m Bomba.

Most of the time I use an inflator (my 16 year old and an LEI pump) but I do also have a small rechargeable.

I am a rank ameture at this sport, but if not for the big kites I'd really suck.

Pardon the spelling mistakes.... Typing with swype....

PHREERIDER - 28-3-2012 at 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dandre

I feel like jumping to FB at that point is just a much better choice

choice discernment....pilot knows the difference. we all go to fundamentals that work. and knowing that, will guide you.

for your weight a 13m arc would fit like a nice pair of all-terrain shoes. land or water. FB and depower are really different flying skills for both. if you wait for perfect powered conditions, harness time will be very little.

fun, smooth light air riding comes much later. powered riding is so much easier and breeds confidence. do it if you got the wind or go to what works for you, which sounds like thats what you're doing.

Bladerunner - 28-3-2012 at 01:38 PM

I have given up on the idea of jumping in winds below 10mph .
I am very impressed with the bottom end of my 18m Phantom. I don't need much more than 5mph to get moving with it on land. Unfortunately we have far too many sub 5mph days and for that I need my 10.8 Reactor II.

With our winds I end up asking myself if I'll ever get to fly my smaller kites. Rarely get to fly the 10m Syn or Sarc 460. When I do have the wind for these kites I start to get concerned about jumping / paying for mistakes. Bigger kites in lower winds are slower and more forgiving IMHO.

I think my favorite days are high teens for wind and a 15m arc .

Riding in low wind is better than waiting for wind but can be like sex without climax.

John Holgate - 28-3-2012 at 01:49 PM

As far as buggying goes - it's a question I've pondered a lot. My biggest is a 9m Riot and it's a big heavy beast (comparatively) that's a bit of a truck to get going.

I'm very keen to give a 7m Nasa Wing a try - comparatively cheap as chips, I've seen a clip on Herc's site of it flying in 2.5 knots and producing power in 5 ? Obviously, jumping is out of the question as there's no power if you can get it over your head. But considering the price, well worth a look.

Check out this video of a 7m in very little wind - kiteboarding and pretty well powered by the looks with barely a ripple on the water And has been previously mentioned about Nasa wings - someone was buggying in next to zero wind at Nabx a year or two ago with a 15m? on long lines......?

Kiteboarding with a 7m Nasa

dylanj423 - 28-3-2012 at 05:10 PM

my 19m synergy was def my most used kite up till now.... unless it was near 20 or higher, it was my go-to... i suspect my new go-to will be my 21m... so thats another resounding YES.... they are worth it... both the cost and the extra effort (which honestly is minimal)

shaggs2riches - 28-3-2012 at 05:12 PM

I frequently fly in 15-20km winds with my 12m speed 2. It would be a godsend to have a 19m or 21m deluxe in the same winds.

Example: Early this month when I went to the Edmonton snowkite festival, I flew my 12m speed 2 while there were others on 19 and 21 speed 3 deluxe. The conditions allowed for me to ride, but I had to work the kite a bit, and couldn't climb upwind as well as I'd like. The 19&21 guys didn't look like they had to work it at all, and I could see them moving upwind well. Could blame skill but I believe the bigger sail would have been the way to go. Later in the evening, winds climbed about 5-7ish km and I was able to cruise upwind easily. The 19&21m guys were still good to go. One thing that RevPaul pointed out to me though was that if you are the only one with a big kite, the ride could get boring if you are use to riding with other people. Like the others said it. Ones down to personal preference really. As for me I think that a big FS is what my next purchase will be. But it might take a whole cause the price is as huge as the kite. :lol:

shaggs2riches - 28-3-2012 at 05:16 PM

And honestly asking.... How much more effort would it really be to set up a 19m FS versus a 12????? I doubt that much.

PHREERIDER - 28-3-2012 at 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shaggs2riches
I frequently fly in 15-20km winds with my 12m speed 2. It would be a godsend to have a 19m or 21m deluxe in the same winds.

Example: Early this month when I went to the Edmonton snowkite festival, I flew my 12m speed 2 while there were others on 19 and 21 speed 3 deluxe. The conditions allowed for me to ride, but I had to work the kite a bit, and couldn't climb upwind as well as I'd like. The 19&21 guys didn't look like they had to work it at all, and I could see them moving upwind well. Could blame skill but I believe the bigger sail would have been the way to go. Later in the evening, winds climbed about 5-7ish km and I was able to cruise upwind easily. The 19&21m guys were still good to go. One thing that RevPaul pointed out to me though was that if you are the only one with a big kite, the ride could get boring if you are use to riding with other people. Like the others said it. Ones down to personal preference really. As for me I think that a big FS is what my next purchase will be. But it might take a whole cause the price is as huge as the kite. :lol:

right shaggs. each unit has threshold needs for easy up wind and full window power, bigger units just are satisfied in lower air

dandre - 28-3-2012 at 06:26 PM

yeh I think my next "big" kite will be a 19 venom.
I think inflating is just good business.

dave brown - 28-3-2012 at 07:19 PM

A 19m Venom although big is NOT a lightwind kite :no:

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=10874&p...
If you are looking for lightwind you are better off with a Speed 15, 19 or 21 :yes:

There's a lot of love for the big Arcs on here.. 19m Venom was my least favorite.

ripsessionkites - 29-3-2012 at 12:34 AM

There is a difference between sitting and flying.

joedy - 29-3-2012 at 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ripsessionkites
There is a difference between sitting and flying.

I agree; I don't care how big the kite is. I'd rather be flying than sitting on the beach lamenting my kite philosophy.

-joedy

shehatesmyhobbies - 29-3-2012 at 06:51 AM

I bought an 18m phantom last year with intentions on saving the first flight for JIBE in the spring. I sid so and the first morning I was there, Todd and I both inflated our 18m phantoms in around 10mph winds. It took a while to get them inflated, but ince we did, we were off to the races. The kitea launched and took us down the beach with no problems. It was well worth the wait and also worth the time it took to inflate them. I have had it going in 8mph winds at home and still worth the effort as long as the buggy got moving. I love my big kite and dont have any problem throwing that bar around tk get it turnimg as fast as it can in low wind speeds.

Any time I can get my kite in the air is better than watching t.v. or playing video games.

dandre - 29-3-2012 at 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ripsessionkites
There is a difference between sitting and flying.

Why not just do something else? Rock climbing, kayaking, paragliding?
My point is, at what point is kite flying ends justifying the means?

Glad to see the big kite love though. I think I might have to look into larger kites in the future.

Drewculous - 29-3-2012 at 09:05 AM

^
Cuz the minute i drag the bike out, or go hiking, the wind will be just right for my biggest kite.... and in my book anyway kiting > the rest of my hobbies :D

dandre - 29-3-2012 at 09:11 AM

difference of opinion I suppose.

in the meantime, as long as I get my kicks somehow... whateva whateva
I was just thinking about the onset of summer (no wind)

does lead into (hurricane season))) east coast is pretty awesome brutal in fall

BeamerBob - 29-3-2012 at 10:12 AM

The difference is between you deciding you will kite today if the wind is blowing or there you are after planning all week to be somewhere to fly kites and you have to deal with what wind you get.

No you don't load up to go on a whim because it's whistling outside at 4-6 mph. That's when you do something else. Big kites are for the other scenario where you had a big plan that places you at your flying place and now you want to fly.

When we lived in GA, we would go camp somewhere at the beach anytime the boys had a long weekend. After getting skunked a couple times by 6-8 mph winds, I told Angus "I can't afford to not have the 8.6 and 10.8 RIIs."

lamrith - 29-3-2012 at 11:00 AM

You got your big kite now Bob!:bigok:

PHREERIDER - 29-3-2012 at 12:12 PM

a little more to add. going "big" in light, a big FS/blade gonna do the trick for sure . aerial based stuff is only one element. SPEED thats where big air comes from, either your speed or kite speed has to be in there somewhere.

going FAST is the buggy game. apparent wind generation!

not just big air, a big race kite, reactor and Phantom deliver efficiency and mad speed.

and big kites in light air a little more manageable,

kitedelight - 29-3-2012 at 01:06 PM

a 12m foil is the biggest in the quiver for me, but got to try a 19m speed2 SA macbod brought along on a snowkite meet up last year. At around 12mph, the kite felt like it had LOADS of power. I was cruising upwind like crazy. When I went back to my 12, it felt like a toy kite after the big 19.

With hardpack, you can get away with a lot less kite. But, as soon as the surface resistance goes up (deeper snow/water), bigger kites have their use in my books.

BeamerBob - 29-3-2012 at 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lamrith
You got your big kite now Bob!:bigok:

I'm not sure I can bring myself to get that 19 dusty. I'm afraid I would be blown out overpowered by just rolling away on the lakebed with that kite. Might have to try it one really light wind day though. It's not considered a light wind kite and even though I'm heavy, lakebed riding isn't much of a high torque need.

dandre - 30-3-2012 at 07:17 PM

jo what you guys know about about FS psycho low end.
don't they have middle aspect RAM foils you all seem to buy alot of?
I notice big sizes of pulse seem to be more preferable from a market perspective than speeds/ other LEIS.
please no talk speed 12or3

I don't want a big race kite.

kitedelight - 30-3-2012 at 08:29 PM

psycho4 can do okay in low winds but are technically not a lightwind kite. You can make up quite a bit on the low end if you work it, edge it right to build the speed, and not kill the power on the bar. But, it still not a 'light wind kite'. psycho3 are more powerful but heard the 17 isn't really a 'light wind' kite.

"please no talk speed 12or3
I don't want a big race kite."
:rolleyes:

Speed3 are used for racing but are not racing specific.

Kamikuza - 30-3-2012 at 08:49 PM

Bigger kites - bigger boosts! :D especially for the bigger gents

Biggest jump of my life - so far - on Thursday... I was actually looking down on someones kites as they were riding :o
Sure, I was over-powered on the S3 15 but that's the price you pay for a more ample figure...

On the land though... I prefer to be only just powered cos I'm a sissy :yes:

dandre - 30-3-2012 at 11:40 PM

I'm sorry what I meant to say is I do not want a speed.
I do not want speed/green eggs & ham.

Kamikuza - 31-3-2012 at 02:08 AM

Why not? They're freakin awesome... S3 15 is my kite of the year.

dandre - 31-3-2012 at 07:18 AM

because I'm not spending 800+ for a kite.
& The bridle is a huge turnoff.

I do not need a high performance XL kite.
I just want a stable well preforming kite that gets me smiling around 8mph in snow. I got crusing in powder with my 9m sabre in that much so I'm not drinking the koolaid

There are a million reasons I don't want a speed. I had one(granted an older model), and it was a huge hassle.

I was thinking (15m psycho or pulse)
If I then see the light I'll buy a speed but I'm not ready for one.

Kamikuza - 31-3-2012 at 09:47 AM

Psycho is still going to have the 'same' bridle... Speed3's are very stable and a big step up on even the Speed2 which is 'only' one model previous. And aside from the AR, the Psycho4 and the Speed3 work the same.
I had a P4 15 and I didn't like it as much as my S3 15 :dunno: prefer the Speed feel... although I need to try a P4 again and see :D

macboy - 31-3-2012 at 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shaggs2riches
And honestly asking.... How much more effort would it really be to set up a 19m FS versus a 12????? I doubt that much.

I've been watching the thread but too tired/busy to stop and chime in. Everytime I saw it I thought ^^

Other than the inflation thing but at SOBB we used the leaf blower to fill up Stetson's SPeed.......inflated like a champ. I was surprised.

canuck - 31-3-2012 at 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dandre

I do not need a high performance XL kite. I just want a stable well preforming kite that gets me smiling around 8mph in snow. I got crusing in powder with my 9m sabre in that much so I'm not drinking the koolaid

I have to say that a smooth 8 mph wind in snow gets me smiling with my Quadrifoil XXXL (9.66m) but the gusts over 12mph can get you going downwind sideways so I often go to the XXL (7.09m) or the Bego 600. I had the 600 up at the Alberta Kite Festival on Cooking Lake when there were many 19 - 21m Flysurfers in the air but the gusts took me out of my comfort zone. Spend $300 :thumbup:

kitedelight - 31-3-2012 at 11:50 AM

Dandre, i think I remember you picking up a 17m speed 1.5. The bridles were more prone to tangle because they were thinner. Bridles were thickened up on the psycho4 (and newer kites) to resist tangling as easy. Like Kami says though....Psycho4 still has bridles.

What's in your current quiver?
if you don't have a 12/13, I would pick that up first. A 9-15 would be too much of a gap for me.

shaggs2riches - 31-3-2012 at 11:57 AM

I think you might be looking at a big fixed bridle or lei by your criteria and budget. Everything seems to not be good enough for ya anyway. Not trying to be rude just running out of ideas. One thing that might work if you are confident enough in your skills is that VIP blade in the for sale section. Definitely got power to get you moving and should be quite versatile. Not sure about gusty winds and how clean your winds are though. But with lei maybe you could find a used ozone zephyr. Suppose to be a good light wind machine.