Power Kite Forum

Advice on kite size: 8 or 10m Access?

mbkh11 - 3-4-2012 at 08:21 AM

I've been flying for about 3yrs, and buggying for the last 18 months. I currently use a 4m Ozone method but I'm looking at moving up to an Ozone Access as I would like that little bit more power or flexibility when the winds are a bit lighter. But living in the UK I'm not sure to go for the 8m or the 10m to get the most flexibility out of the kite. So just looking for second opinion really.
I have got some de-power experience as been learning to kitesurf on a 10.5m Naish Bolt.
Weight 75-80kg.

dandre - 3-4-2012 at 08:30 AM

10 is great (hooj window)
but the thing I learned from getting a 9.5m is that I wish I would have gone smaller.
Even moving slow I was "in" control but I wasn't IN control.

smaller depower kites let you feel more stable, and more confident in learning an aggressive correct style.
plus when you get ballsy you'd have a great high wind kite to go hard on.

both are great kites though!
gratz on the move

mbkh11 - 3-4-2012 at 08:41 AM

:thumbup:

Sounds good.

I do love my method and plan to keep it in my quiver as I love it turning speed (particularly on the turbo bar) and wind range, so sounds like the 8m Access would compliment it nicely as I do want that 'in' control feel and confidence that the kite isn't going to bite back lol.

Many Thanks for the advice.

ragden - 3-4-2012 at 08:46 AM

Depending on your most frequent wind conditions. If you are looking for a "light wind" kite, go larger. Like a 12m. Then for higher winds, get the 8m. I could be wrong, but I got the impression that the Access kites are much like other depower kites and their wind ranges are a bit different than what you would expect from a fixed-bridle kite the same size.

I also saw a guy flying a 4m Access in some pretty decent wind conditions. I was using an 8m Outlaw, and he was on a 4m Access. Granted, he couldn't get going as fast as I was going, but he was riding.

My only concern about the 10m Access is that it is really in the "middle" of the size range. Checked what your weight equals out to. You might be light enough to make use of the 10m Access as a light-wind engine. Hard to say really. My light wind engine is a 15m (I'm about 87 kg). Depends on your comfort range and what you are really looking for in a kite. The other thing to consider is what would your ultimate quiver would look like. Does this get you closer to that goal?

mbkh11 - 3-4-2012 at 09:09 AM

Quiver wise just want something of a sensible size really. The 8m wind range would sit in my comfort zone nicely and sounds like it would be more versatile.

Ozone Access 2012 Wind Range
4.0m 4-40 kts
6.0m 4-33 kts
8.0m 4-27 kts
10.0m 4-21 kts
12.0m 4-18 kts

I tend to go out for a buggy session with wind between 9-14knots using my 4m Method.

ragden - 3-4-2012 at 09:11 AM

Sounds like a good choice then.
If money was no object, what would your quiver look like?

martinipro - 3-4-2012 at 10:23 AM

Looking at the Wind Range tables provided by Ozone.

Method 4m 4-21knts.
Access 8m 4-27knts.
Access 10m 4-21knts.

Realistically the kite will not provide enough pull at the bottom end.
On the top end depends a lot on skills/Surface/Weight/Type of Vehicle(atv/buggy) and the depower should have a higher top end than a fixed bridle.

However I do think both 8m and 10m access would overlap quite a bit with your 4m method.

Just my 2 cents.

mbkh11 - 3-4-2012 at 12:40 PM

Very true is some overlap.

Cost wise there £30 between ($45) between the 8m and 10m, my usual retailer is recommending the 8m as being the most suitable for the average UK winds.

Is a tough one.

indigo_wolf - 3-4-2012 at 12:45 PM

Do you fly alone or are there others with depower kites that you can try out in various sizes (even if they are not Ozone Accesses).

Is the retailer a brick and mortar store or mail order?

Does he have any demo kites?

ATB,
Sam

mbkh11 - 3-4-2012 at 12:52 PM

He brick and mortar and about 2 1/2 hour drive don't think he has demo kites though but then never asked, doesn't mention on the web site.

The spot I frequent there normally 3 or 4 others and 3 of them all fly Access and are usually flying 10m (trouble is weather been pants for traction the last 2 weeks so not been able to get out, so frustrating.

John Holgate - 3-4-2012 at 02:27 PM

Those wind range charts are useless. 4 knots for a 4m Access ??? Up to 40 ?? I doubt you'd even get a 4m Access or 4m Method to fly in 4 knots without a hell of a lot of running around. And a 4m Method is still quite capable in 20 knots. Mine starts to 'worS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- in the buggy from about 13 knots up to 23 ish....that's when I'm starting to get pulled sideways. 15-18 is the sweet spot for me. Wouldn't pull the 4m Access out until 18 knots or so. Would not fly it 40 though.....

If your friends are flying 10m Access's - give one a whirl and see what you think. I've only flown the 4 & 6. An 8m should be somewhere in the range of 8 knots to 18 ish. Your friends will know the range for the 10m.

6.5m Method is nice from about 7 knots up to 14 too.....

mbkh11 - 3-4-2012 at 02:54 PM

True

About 14kts is def that sweet spot for the Method 4m when hits about 16/17kts when I start to go sideways. The main thing I'm looking for is being able to get going when maybe my method is struggling, or when have a nice breeze and just go that little bit quicker with out having to worry if it's going to splatter my across the field lol

......the 6.5m Method has caught my eye in the past.....

macboy - 3-4-2012 at 07:48 PM

My 10m Access is my "let's see how the wind really is" kite and I weigh about the same as you I think. It's so stable and forgiving and non-lifty that it's a great confidence booster. Twice this winter I unrolled it to "check the winds" and then carried onto the 13m Psycho. A 8 I think would be underpowered except in a strong wind but then again Canuck was riding nice with is 8 during a 19 FSer day so I guess the 8 would be good come to think of it.

Sorry....no help here I guess :lol:

jimbocz - 4-4-2012 at 02:58 AM

If you get the 8 now, you can always buy the 12 later. If you buy the 10 now, you could buy the 6 later. I live in England and fly at Camber sands or inland field. When inland, I always like the 6 more because it turns faster and is more responsive. At the Beach, I like the 10 because you can just throw it up there and forget about it. It just floats over your head like a big air mattress and you just give it suggestions every once in a while.

mbkh11 - 4-4-2012 at 03:28 AM

The 10 and 6 has always sounded the more likely quiver as I'm not sure about the 12m in the UK.

I do like that feeling when you can park the kite and not worry about it it just delivers that smooth power and stays put with no drama.

Almost all of my flying is done in land as finding a beach within a sensible driving distance that allows traction other then surfing is challenging (hence why I've started kite surfing as well).

Feyd - 4-4-2012 at 04:07 AM

What kind of surface are you riding. We have a guy here that rides and 8m on snow and he rides it in a pretty broad range of wind conditions. It's got a suprisingly good low range (he's been out pokin around on 15m FS SA days) if you are willing to work it and a pretty good top end if you're willing to commit.(20mph + days)

He weighs about 210 lbs.

mbkh11 - 4-4-2012 at 04:17 AM

I ride rough grass pretty much all the time as it's a trek to a buggy friendly beach.

210lb is 95kg

It's clear both sizes have decent potential and certainly a close run thing.

PHREERIDER - 4-4-2012 at 05:25 AM

i would go with the bigger unit at 210

mbkh11 - 4-4-2012 at 09:59 AM

I'm 165lbs

Feyd - 4-4-2012 at 11:55 AM

@ 210, the 10m for sure. @ 165, hmmm you're kinda on the fence IMO. Sort of the max weight I'd consider for a 8m and the min for a 10m if you know what I mean.

I'm a proponent of being overpowed than under. Assuming you have the flying skills to deal with being overpowed. In general you can always take power away from the wing, it's harder to get more power into a wing. And flying underpowed is a lot more work than flying overpowed.

The Access is a great kite. It does what it's supposed to and it does it well. As a touring kite the lift is minimal and lift (when you don't want it) is always a concern with flying overpowered. My feeling is this, if you can fly confidently in a slightly overpowered state go with a 10m. If you happen to be out and the wind gets beyond your ability to handle it and you've maxed out your depow range on the trim strap you can alway double back the lines so they're half as long and kill a bunch more power.

mbkh11 - 4-4-2012 at 12:43 PM

Definitely in between things weight wise certainly doesn't make it easy. That is a point that it's easier to de-power then to be under powered.

mbkh11 - 5-4-2012 at 02:24 AM

Well here is the blurb for the 2 sizes

Ozone Access 2012 - 8m:

The 8m is the perfect kite for learning in moderate wind speeds for a light weight rider.

Rider weight range from 65+kg, Wind range depends on rider ability.
 
Ozone Access 2012 - 10m:

The 10m is the perfect kite for beginner to intermediate riders in Light to moderate wind speeds.

Rider weight range from 75+kg, Wind range depends on the rider ability.
 

dandre - 5-4-2012 at 04:03 AM

you know feyd is one of the fastest kiters in the world right?
take his advice on power with a grain of salt.

God bless, but I'm telling you you can always trade up later.
access kites have a high resale value, and learning solid agressive technique is important.

either choice you're going to be fine, but we're the same weight and my 9.5 has a lot of power for me.

depower is much different than FB while you're learning

mbkh11 - 5-4-2012 at 07:30 AM

Guess the other Aspect is would an 8m be better then a quiver of a 6m and 10m for low wind days.

dandre - 5-4-2012 at 07:59 AM

thats conjecture at this point.
the stuff of imagination. Don't think about other kites, think about the kite you're buying in terms of what your needs are now.

you never know when you're gonna see a sweet deal, or tweak your riding style.
seriously my 9.5 is all the kite I need for atleast a year or two. but I wish I would have gotten a 7.5 and learned the ropes in a more practical way.

If your winds are typically low, under 12mph, get the 10m. but if it averages 7-20 then the 8m is probably a better choice. Big kites are slower, and the access kites are low aspect as it is.

I'm just sharing the mistakes I made to help you make an informed decision. buy whatever it is you want the most.

like I said, both kites are awesome.
10/6 is a great combo, but so is 8/12 for low aspect foils.

Feyd - 5-4-2012 at 09:05 AM

Dandre has a point, I don't think I saw much discussion about wind here. Beyond that you wanted something for lightish winds.

Dandre's right tho, if you are in a wind range where it's gusty as (7-20) hell 8m would be the safer pick. And like I said the guy in town here rides his 8m in all kinds of stuff from pretty damn light to around 20+.

But in my defense, my opinion, inspite of what I do with kites, comes from a lot of hours on the wing and literally 1000's of miles of riding. I'm very safety conscious, I can't afford not to be. Yes I'm a Peter Lynn sponsored speed freak :duh: but I'm also an IKO snowkite instructor and I tend to err on the side of safety. I've no problem with taking my opinion with a grain of salt, I'd be concerned if you didn't, but unless you have first hand expirience either riding or seeing the kite ridden you should take anyone's opinion with a grain of salt.

I don't know that I would disregard my opinion because of what I do.

mbkh11 - 5-4-2012 at 09:21 AM

That does sound like a plan, being my first land based de-power the 8 is more what I probably need now and what the shop is recommending. I've flown 10 & 12m Naish bolts but know ILEs can be a different beast. Think make go for the 8 now and trade up when feel confident with de-power. Can't see myself at my weight going for a 12. At the mo I'm between 165-176lbs and the ave wind is 12-15mph

dandre - 5-4-2012 at 06:13 PM

in my defense feyd I never said he should disregard your opinion. I think you were being very practical, but you do have those 1000s of hours experience and an adrenaline style. emotional needs are very different is my point, even in recommendations.

Mb enjoy your access!! I'm really jealous you're getting such a sweet new kite, everyone on here speaks VOLUMES about how much they love the access

shaggs2riches - 5-4-2012 at 07:20 PM

An 8m is a good starting point to learn the ropes. It will have you through a wide range and then some. However for myself at 185-190lbs a 12m/8m(or 9m)/6m quiver. If I dropped to 160-165 I might like a 10/6/4 quiver. The access is such an easy kite, that beginners can learn on a bigger than usual kite and still feel safe if they take it easy. But I would be surprised if you completely outgrew the 8m for a long time. The clearest advice I can honestly give is to go with what the local who has flown the area is telling you. Sadly it's a real tough call on those two. Sorry I can't be much more help.

Edit just noticed the 10.5m bolt in your quiver. There is nothing stopping you from using a tube with a buggy. Lots of people do it. In 12mph you should be okay as long as you aren't planning on slamming it into the groud over and over and over. Just a thought.

mbkh11 - 6-4-2012 at 02:14 AM

I've considered using my bolt but new more practice with it water b4 I trust myself on land, it is a really sweet kite lovely an smooth. Anyways I digress.
Think the real factor that making things awkward is most of the time because I fly inland the winds are gusty and turbulent plus the 8 is clearly right in the middle of the Access range.

mbkh11 - 15-4-2012 at 03:38 PM

Well I bit the bullet and went for the 8m Access thanks for all of your posts :spin:

dandre - 15-4-2012 at 03:49 PM

let us know how it goes!

Bladerunner - 16-4-2012 at 06:50 AM

I met up with a fellow snowkiting in Calgary ( Canadad ) this winter who has used an 8m as a one kite quiver for 3 years with no complaints.

Winds can really pick up there and He found 8m gave him a huge range.

Good Choice.

Chicagokitejumping - 19-4-2012 at 04:13 AM

10 mtrs i fly a 8 mtrs ozone access when is really windy 25 knots to 30 and i am 163lb

This kite is super solid no problem with 10 mtrs ....the transition is very easy from you kite to the access.

This kite has some lift too

John Holgate - 19-4-2012 at 02:54 PM

Quote:

i fly a 8 mtrs ozone access when is really windy 25 knots to 30 and i am 163lb


goes to show the difference between landboarding and buggying. In 25 knots, I'm pulling the 4m Access XT out of the bag. (actually, I'll pull the 4m XT out of the bag around 18 knots and still be nicely powered). There is no way I could handle an 8m in 25 knots. In the buggy I keep the kite low, I guess on a board, you're using the kite high.

Feyd - 19-4-2012 at 04:21 PM

Now I'm cornfused. The buggy weighs a shload and then you have a rider in 18 knt you run a 4m XT? I agree you have the wing lower than I see most boarders. When you say you couldn't handle the 8m in 25knts what exactly would happen?

I ask because on skis I'm having a ball on the 12m Ph2 or a 7m Apex 2 in 30knts and working really hard but hauling the mail at about 35knts +. And this is with a kite low in the window and in cold dense winds.

I don't get to play with buggies here so i'm very curious about this.

shaggs2riches - 19-4-2012 at 10:33 PM

With my limited buggy experience I found that I had less rolling resistance in the buggy than the atb. I was rolling nice on a solid reach with my 6m access in the buggy. But I could only roll down winders on the atb in the same winds and same kite.:crazy: So with that in mind I think you could go violently fast in a buggy and take the same kite onto an atb and find yourself well powered but in control. Maybe it has something to do with body positioning.

John Holgate - 19-4-2012 at 10:50 PM

Holy smokes - a 7m Apex in 30-35 knots??? I'm starting to go sideways in the buggy at 22 knots with that kite. In 30, I'd just be yanked violently sideways with no control.

In 18 knots, I have plenty of power with the 4m XT and have nearly hit 70kph in 20-25 knots with that kite. I simply could not handle a 7-8m depower in those sort of winds. You are talking knots, not kph ???

Sorry for the mini hi-jack!!!

Feyd - 20-4-2012 at 04:26 AM

Second the apologies on the mini hi-jack. Yes I'm talking knots. =)

I thought it might be an issue of edge hold. Beamer Bob and I had discussion about this in the past.

My goto size for speed is the 12m Phantom2 (prior to that the 10m Venom, 12m Syn and 12m Charger) so roughly 7.5 m PA. And most of my fast days are in winds gusting up to 30mph gusting 40mph+. And I need the gusts to get what I'm looking for.

I'm thinking that my runs are much shorter than a buggy run? Also my runs tend to follow an arc, getting max speed right at the sweet spot in the balance point between the crosswind/downwind point and edge hold while a buggy run is more straight?

Edge hold on skis (assuming my legs are up to it) is like rails. If I'm moving forward I only get downwind drift if my legs give or my edges are sharp enough. That is if I'm on a kite with fast forward speed. A kite like my 12m Ranger has too much grunt and the extra power with wind increase DOES pull me off edge as the max forward speed on that wing is around 45mph. (I've had it up to 50mph but was being pulled off edge.)

I gotta get out on a buggy and see what its like. I assumed that the extra weight of the buggy would help offset the lack of edge hold when on dirt vs. skis. This doesn't sound like its the case. Now I'm starting to wonder what sizes of Arc a buggy guy would ride vs. a snowkiter in the same wind conditions.

John Holgate - 20-4-2012 at 03:14 PM

All of my buggy runs that get any speed are on the beach and are usually between 3 - 7km long depending on where I am. Not many arc flyers down this way...only one is regularly out in a buggy. I think he has a 14m Synergy/Scorpion hybrid which I think he runs up to around the 20 knot mark...maybe a bit more. Only ever flown it once briefly myself but was hugely impressed by the depower range. Our runs are pretty much straight line. Tend to keep the kite very low to the deck. Above 30knots, for me, too much can go wrong too quickly and the danger v fun ratio is too much. In those sort of wind, I'll watch from a sheltered spot....but you've got my respect!

There's a vid with the Synergy/Scorpion hybrid in it here: Sandy Point Feb 2012 Nigel (the bloke flying it) has the fastest speed in Aus at the moment at 98kph which I think he got with an 8m Scorpion ??

Figure if we're gonna hijack a thread....may as well do it properly!!!

mbkh11 - 20-4-2012 at 03:37 PM

Lol don't mind the hi jacking def interesting. I've not been bugging long only about 18months, finding locations large enough is the problem. The longest near me is 1.5km and is a 2 hr drive to get to. Most beaches and open spaces frown apon and even ban traction kiting. Hence why I'm in the progress of learning kite surfing as well. I'm itching to get some good long runs, the best I get locally is between 50-100m.

BeamerBob - 20-4-2012 at 04:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Feyd
Now I'm cornfused. The buggy weighs a shload and then you have a rider in 18 knt you run a 4m XT? I agree you have the wing lower than I see most boarders. When you say you couldn't handle the 8m in 25knts what exactly would happen?

I ask because on skis I'm having a ball on the 12m Ph2 or a 7m Apex 2 in 30knts and working really hard but hauling the mail at about 35knts +. And this is with a kite low in the window and in cold dense winds.

I don't get to play with buggies here so i'm very curious about this.


Feyd, in a buggy on the playa, we run in a straight line if we aren't well powered. If you get an increase in wind and you ease into overpowered as your speed builds, you deal with the power and build the speed by making a parabolic "bearing off downwind" till you can handle the power and not be sliding sideways. My 63 mph run was very surreal because the pull from the kite was very low but still accellerating me. That's the vapor running way out front and me pointing probably 45 degrees towards downwind by then.

I can't wait to get a database of knowledge about the phantom IIs in my world to compare to yours. I'm guessing in 30 knots, I would be holding on for my life with the 9m and pretty sure the 12 would be out of the question. If I was overpowered, the buggy would slide sideways with any angle much above dead downwind. I can handle sideways but I have to get back to the car. upwind isn't so bad since I can control speed with my upwind angle and speed is kite power. Disc wheels are on the way and I understand they will be more rail like in their ability to maintain angle. Lots to test and learn about soon.

Feyd - 20-4-2012 at 06:00 PM

Hey Bob, we get that same parabolic effect. But it's almost immediate. Like 1) I'm hooked into the gust 1...2....3.....4.....5...maxing into the apex of parabollic....6......7......8 ...... out of parabolic and losing speed and bearing downwind. Total distance between 700-1600 feet.

The disc wheels, what is the tire width and what type of air pressures are you running?

BeamerBob - 20-4-2012 at 06:12 PM

new world for me. Tires look to be about 2.5 to 3 inches wide. No idea on pressure, but that's something I'll fiddle with to balance traction and comfort. Link to Landsegler is in my signature, so you can take a look at the wheels/tires.

At the point where you feel the power increase, our distances could be the same in the parabolic curve. I wouldn't let it take me downwind and double my speed though if I'm approaching a mandatory turn around. I bet you know where the surge of wind is going to catch you as well and you seek that out. Even with the lakebed being 2 by 6 miles or so, I'll use probably a 2 by 2 mile section for set up and then the run downwind for speed along with room to slow down. You seem to slow down from top speed in 50-75 feet! I could only do that if I tossed the kite loose.

Feyd - 21-4-2012 at 03:40 AM

Correct, we have the luxury off killing off our runs in between 45-100 feet. Stopping in a short distance really kills skis and takes a toll on your body so I like to feather the stop out. Sometimes we know where ther surge is but alot of the time you catch a gust at a random point and just redirect to get the most out of it. It's handy that we can see the snow, even if it's just a little bit of snow, blowing across the ice. We can usually see gusts and hook into them.:wee:

I looked at the wheels on thier site. Interesting that the lace a radial pattern instead of a 2,3 or 4 cross pattern. When I build wheels (assuming no disc brakes) I will usually do a radial for the front and mixed raidal on non drive side and 3 cross on drive side for XC bikes. Basically going for low rotational weight over survivabilty.

If I'm building a bomb proof wheelset it's 3 or 4 cross, destressed a minimum of 5 times (via side load). If the wheel is is going to be REALLY thrashed I'll wire wrap and solder the crosses. Those wheels can take serious load side or otherwise but they ride ungodly stiff. On a DH bike with 8" of travel it's not much of a problem tho.

It looks like you ar running 20" wheels. The short spokes help a lot with strength and it looks like a pretty stout guage. I wonder what durometer the tires are.

BeamerBob - 21-4-2012 at 04:54 AM

The wheels are 16". They get away with the radial spoke pattern because the wheels don't drive or brake. Their only real load is vertical and lateral. 16" is much less vulnerable than a 26 or 29 bike wheel that takes stress from virtually all angles. Stephan and Mano dished out untold abuse to the wheels and they looked good as new after more than a week of it. I don't think I'll ever ride as aggressively as they do since I probably won't ever race much. They should be great for Wexler and I.

I never thought about brake type changing the load on the wheel but yes it is night and day different.

Feyd - 21-4-2012 at 05:27 AM

Holy 16'? Wow, limits your tire options I bet but definately helps the strength end of things. Lowers your COG too I bet.

I was thinking about the differences in buggy and snowkite riding and one thing I keep forgetting is you guys are usually on fixed bridles where we are always trimming in and out. Like when I stop I bring the kite to the edge, feather out the skis (hard edging on ice blows ski edges out) in a slide and trim out the wing.

I gotta get my hands on a buggy and poke around on the coast.

BeamerBob - 21-4-2012 at 09:21 AM

There are tire options in that size and they tend to be cheaper as well.

That's a difference I noted from one of your videos. I have the Phantom IIs on order(still) and frequently fly the HQ Montanas so depower gets to ride about half the time for me. I tend to trim and forget unless conditions change. I see you running with the bar all the way out and working your trim strap often and usually its a big adjustment from all the way in to all the way out. I tend to set it so I can backstall with the bar all the way in and I'm very depowered with the bar out. I usually run with the bar about 2/3rds to 3/4 pulled in.

Feyd - 22-4-2012 at 04:33 AM

I was thinking about this yesterday. There are some really nice tires in that size range actually, mostly fort the recumbent market. I have some Maxxis Hookworms in that size from when I was making chopper bikes.

Yeah I like my bar at an arm's reach but still generating power. So fully sheeted out she isn't as depowed as she could be. Close but not quite. The depow available with these new arcs allows me to set it up this way and if I really need the full depow range I can still get it with a little or a lot of trim.

I like being able to trim, lock into the run, spool up speed, pop the trim and get the kick in the pants speed increase.:tumble: