Power Kite Forum - Turns - Powered by XMB 1.9.12

Turns

MDK - 20-4-2012 at 11:25 PM

There is a turn in this vid around 124, could someone tell me what type of turn this is and explain? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnVqeiWE6kA

macboy - 21-4-2012 at 12:02 AM

LOVE that vid! One of my faves of all time. Massive skills there.

I won't try to name that tune...er....turn. I know others that were there (and know far more than I do) will chime in. I watched Eli practicing deadman turns (I think that's what it's called) at SOBB last fall. Gave me the confidence to try my hand at upwind turns which for me was more of an up-end turn followed by a crawl-out-from-under-the-buggy and check-to-see-who-saw-me :lol:

I'm learning.....Gonna load up the fridge with beer and call kiteboyza out for some training sessions ; )

If I can find the vid of Eli I'll post it.

macboy - 21-4-2012 at 12:08 AM

It's still uploading so may take a while.

awindofchange - 21-4-2012 at 01:18 AM

That turn is called a "suicide". What you do is send the kite back past you at full speed as you go forward, usually initiated with a hard fast downloop. As the kite passes you, you do a downwind turn away from the kite so you can keep full tension on the lines and keep the kite flying as fast as possible, you need to have good speed when doing this so you can continue to run downwind away from the kite, keeping the kite flying past the edge of the window and continuing around in a full 360' circle.

You can only do these turns when the wind/buggy speed/kite are perfect, otherwise the kite will eject you out of the buggy, or it will get on the upwind leg and stall/collapse into a balled mess. It usually is a high speed turn as you need the momentum to keep the kite flying when it is on its upwind arc.

If you want to practice this, I would suggest doing it in lighter winds and slower on the buggy so you can get the feel of what is going on. Just downloop the kite and send it back hard, turn the buggy downwind away from the kite so it continues past. Hold it on that course as you run the buggy around and you will start to feel what it is like and what needs to be done. In the lighter winds with lower speeds, the kite will have very little tendency to eject you backwards out of the buggy but will usually just end up in a ball on the upwind side. Once you get the feel as to what should happen, you can try it again with a bit more power and some more speed. Don't try this at high speeds unless you really know what you are doing first. I can end ugly.

Normally, lower aspect ratio kites will have a very difficult time doing this type of turn. Higher aspect ratio race kites will be much easier to complete the turn. When done right, it is really awesome in the bug and looks cool to bystanders.

Hope that helps.

awindofchange - 21-4-2012 at 01:24 AM

After viewing the video a couple more times, they are doing an upwind suicide turn. It is basically the same thing but they are looping the kite downwind and turning the buggies upwind to take up the slack. As the buggy comes around on the upwind turn, the kite is following behind doing the full 360' turn. This is even more difficult to do than the downwind suicide and you need to be quite comfortable doing upwind turns before trying this.

MDK - 21-4-2012 at 01:30 AM

okay yeah I’ve seen the suicide, it looked different in this video so I thought it might be something different but must have been the way the video was shot. thanks for the description, defiantly helps understand how it’s done, maybe someday....

MDK - 21-4-2012 at 01:35 AM

okay I thought it looked different. Definitely cool. looks efficient too

Danger - 21-4-2012 at 07:52 AM

http://vimeo.com/40679460

just some test filming, wasnt intended for publishing.. but as it fits...

MDK - 21-4-2012 at 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Danger
http://vimeo.com/40679460

just some test filming, wasnt intended for publishing.. but as it fits...

Fantastic! Thanks!

jantie - 23-4-2012 at 01:18 PM

its what we call an overloop.

ride fulltrottle downwind and pull the kite over yourself and turn your bug 90 degrees to the other downwind
direction.
as the kite slowly starts to lose pull an altitude turn more to the wind and proceed futher with a normal
90 degrees direction/wind angle.

it takes a little courage because of the lift that you experiance when you shoot the kite up un the sky
at full downwind speed..:D

BeamerBob - 23-4-2012 at 04:41 PM

In the original vid, it's my opinion that Arie and Ozzy were doing a standard racing suicide gibe. They were going away from the camera with the kites on their left then pulled the kites overhead with enough speed for the kite and wind (the buggy speed required is different when you change the wind speed and/or kite size), then with their momentum, they fly the kite like a paraglider overhead while they turn the buggy under the kite. In the end they've turned enough that the kite is flying on their right and they make their way 180 degrees from the direction they came.

This turn is different that the turn Kent described at first with a downloop to start and an extra 360 at the end. That type turn is more of a trick and the one I described above, while it looks really cool, is for maintaining speed through a downwind turn and lighting the afterburner at the end. The new Phantom IIs really pull hard as the kite sweeps back into the power when you finish the turn. Can't wait to explore them more. (Mine arrive tomorrow from Netherlands!)

Like Kent said, the larger the kite and lower the wind, the easier these are to complete since the kite will fly with less wind and is more forgiving if you lose some line tension as well as the buggy needing less speed to begin with.

MDK - 23-4-2012 at 05:22 PM

well I hope some day I will be able to do stuff like that...really cool!

BeamerBob - 23-4-2012 at 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MDK
well I hope some day I will be able to do stuff like that...really cool!

Something tells me that you could be doing those with another few days at Ivanpah!

Danger - 24-4-2012 at 03:51 AM

In my opinion its all the same move. If you want to turn fast and keep speed/momentum you have to bring the kite above you. If you want to turn upwind and have the kite low you will break hard or get pulled out of the bug, if you want to turn downwind and have the kite low you will loose line tension and it will collapse.

The rest of the execution only depends on the angle to the wind you come from - you want to go to and about the need to burn height to the wind or maintain it.

Lets say you want to turn downwind and need to burn as many height as you can to reach the next turning point on a track. Then the best move is with the kite right above like a parawing, this way and with enough initial speed you can use the momentum of the buggy to roll straight downwind for some time.
If you want to turn downwind but keep as much height as possible skip the gliding phase and just make the downwind turn in the same second the kite passes the zenit above you.
If you want to gain height in a upturn you can make the same move the other direction, go upwind to the turn point, let the kite shoot up (maybe you have to turn a bit downwind during this to keep the line tension low enough and prevent to get lifted) and than roll with the kite above you straight upwind until you want to finsih the turn or get to slow.
If keeping speed is more important on a upwind turn, again skip the gliding period and make the turn right when the kite passes the zenit above you.

etc. etc.

Looping is looking nice but you should learn all that stuff without it. On a track with friends or in a race you wont have the space to loop with people/kites/lines all around you.

ps. to execute this maneuvers, especially if you want that long gliding moves you need to have a kite with good upwind performance (state of the art race kites work best). Low aspect intermediate/beginner kites tend to stop shortly before they reach the zenit above you, so you need to drive much more radical and with more lift to club them up.

MDK - 24-4-2012 at 06:32 AM

@ Danger, Thanks! very helpful!

MDK - 24-4-2012 at 06:36 AM

Bob, I already miss it, wish I could come down when RedSkyHorizon comes over. I know, why would you ever want to leave Ivanpah, but if you ever decide to come up to Alvord let me know

bigkid - 24-4-2012 at 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Danger
http://vimeo.com/40679460

just some test filming, wasnt intended for publishing.. but as it fits...

I have to say I learned more in that short viewing than any other vid I have seen in a long time. Nice work with the repeating and different angles. :thumbup:

I usually have to spend way to much time looking, rewinding, looking, trying to rewind, looking, etc.
Would be worth buying for the learning aspect of the sport.

MDK - 24-4-2012 at 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid

Quote:

Originally posted by Danger
http://vimeo.com/40679460

just some test filming, wasnt intended for publishing.. but as it fits...

I have to say I learned more in that short viewing than any other vid I have seen in a long time. Nice work with the repeating and different angles. :thumbup:

I usually have to spend way to much time looking, rewinding, looking, trying to rewind, looking, etc.
Would be worth buying for the learning aspect of the sport.

I agree

AviN - 24-4-2012 at 12:38 PM

"..and check-to-see-who-saw-me.." you cracked me up :lol:

happens to me so many times.....

bison - 24-4-2012 at 01:18 PM

REALLY, THAT'S A SUICIDE GYBE???? Unless I missed something in the video, I've been doing that for years. I always called it a HIGH SPEED DOWNWIND Gybe.

High speed reach - bring kite overhead while turning into kite so as not to get ejected or slide - turn tight under kite while its overhead so as to not luff the kite, grab both brakes on kite to slow down kite overhead and prevent collapse - kite is now on other side hold brakes to slow down kite's progress toward ground and keep it in the power longer. That's it high speed downwind gybe.

Cool name but I think the 360 trick is more aptly named as if you screw that one up it can be disastrous.

awindofchange - 24-4-2012 at 02:35 PM

I would agree with you Bison, that is not what I would consider a suicide.

A suicide (if I am not mistaken here) is bringing the kite in a full 360' around the buggy. You actually end up flying the kite upwind of itself. This would probably not be a turn that you would ever use in a race, but they are very awesome to do.

Here is an older video of Brian Holgate - our shop rider and team rider for Peter Lynn doing a suicide.

The suicide turn is :20 seconds into the video.

jantie - 25-4-2012 at 12:25 PM

a lot of the US movie's have 1 thing in common, no helmets.
makes you wonder...

AviN - 25-4-2012 at 01:02 PM

" a lot of the US movie's have 1 thing in common, no helmets. makes you wonder..." thats because US ppl have harder heads :bouncy: :lol:

BeamerBob - 25-4-2012 at 01:35 PM

I'm not sure any particular country can be singled our as more negligent. Those push kiting guys going 30+ feet in the air on a grass field with park benches and posts along the road they're jumping over come to mind. It's the first thing I notice when watching their awesome videos.