Power Kite Forum - VTT Stinger Speed Buggy -- Racer X edition

VTT Stinger Speed Buggy -- Racer X edition

van - 22-5-2012 at 02:23 PM

Starting a new build today. Just got the first part in today. You can guess what the rest will look like :singing:

edit: will most likely be tested at beach until next chance to go to dry lake

more pics to come in the next 7 days ...

cheezycheese - 22-5-2012 at 03:03 PM

Unbelievable.... :bigok:

BeamerBob - 22-5-2012 at 03:11 PM

Wow, those are going to be stout wheels! I hope to have my Landseglers in time for SBBB.

van - 22-5-2012 at 04:09 PM

Harley Davidson Sportster wheels , heavy duty 3/4" ID double row ball bearings .. haha.. super stout. I need to make sure the attachment point is as stout.

Beaudryjoel - 22-5-2012 at 08:56 PM

sick.
start thinking bout something dumb like that for me Van

Cheddarhead - 22-5-2012 at 09:05 PM

:thumbup:

You are a man of awesome ideas! I like the way you think outside the proverbial box!

MDK - 22-5-2012 at 09:45 PM

very cool!

van - 22-5-2012 at 10:11 PM

It's not one of my most practical ideas but I am having a blast building this beast! Not sure how it will perform but it will look cool!! :spin:

:singing::singing::singing::bouncy:

snowspider - 23-5-2012 at 10:31 AM

Van are you going to chrome the frame , if you say yes I think my head will explode.
Cool will not be a magnanimous enough word to describe the results.

edit: AAAGH.... the pressure in my head is building!

van - 23-5-2012 at 07:51 PM

I need to finish this thing before may 31st so I can test it out at El MIrage dry lake. So the initial build will just gonna get some black paint for now. I can sandblast the paint off when I get back. Once I do finalize the build, I will powdercoat (color not chosen yet) and dress it up like a custom built motorcycle with as much chrome as I can get on it .. haha. Maybe pin striping ... :evil:

van - 23-5-2012 at 10:13 PM

ok .. it's midnite and I just got in from the garage .. neighbors are probably trying to petition to get rid of me .. haha :smilegrin:

Here's some more pics ...

Beaudryjoel - 24-5-2012 at 07:06 PM

That thing is going to be sick...

rocfighter - 25-5-2012 at 04:29 AM

Van I am not a Dr. And I don't play one on TV. But It think you have what is called BUGGY FEVER. And there is only one cure. MORE COWBELLS!! er-um I mean MORE BUGGIES!!:D :thumbup:

van - 25-5-2012 at 09:05 AM

I got the axle all welded up last night. Only thing left is to make a fork and foot pegs.
The rear wheel bolt is set at an 8 degree camber.

snowspider - 25-5-2012 at 10:02 AM

I can see saddle bags and a back seat on that ,cruising the playa. Way too cool!

erratic winds - 25-5-2012 at 10:29 AM

cotter pin or locknut those axle bolts! Learn from Brian's equipment failure!

That is a sweet, sweet looking bug.

Can't wait to see video of it in action!

van - 25-5-2012 at 10:54 AM

It will have a lock washer on the inside and nylon lock nut on the outside. Some loctite thread locker would probably help also :smilegrin:

Come to think of it , cotter pin is not a bad idea :smilegrin:

Can't wait to get the tires in so I can mount them. Looks like they won't be in until Tuesday , the earliest and I'm leaving wednesday or thursday. Cutting it close!!!

Saddle bags with chrome studs :smilegrin:

bobalooie57 - 25-5-2012 at 12:18 PM

:wow: after you break her in,(GET VIDEO!) let us know where the bidding starts! Sweet ride, man!

John Holgate - 25-5-2012 at 04:40 PM

+1 for the video. That looks awesome.

I've occasionally wondered about using a spoked wheel with a drum brake hub........

rocfighter - 25-5-2012 at 06:17 PM

Do I see another Wildwood Buggy Bash Auction donation coming?:roll: :spin:

;-)

van - 25-5-2012 at 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rocfighter
Do I see another Wildwood Buggy Bash Auction donation coming?:roll: :spin:

;-)

Haha...ticket price would be real high.. :smilegrin:

rocfighter - 25-5-2012 at 06:30 PM

How high? I got some money!!

van - 25-5-2012 at 10:42 PM

ok, it's my 4th day on this project .. almost done. Got the fork all tack up. It's about 12:40 am central time so it's time for me to go to sleep. I will weld it all up in the morning and get you guys final pics. Might need to extend the foot peg attachment back due to the larger wheels. Wish I got my tires so I can make sure it all fits wheel. I am just guessing tire height right now.

yes.. I need to clean up my garage :lol:

Beaudryjoel - 26-5-2012 at 09:31 PM

ummm i think you just might need to sell this one to me when your done with it at el mirage.
any use for my first born?

van - 27-5-2012 at 08:48 PM

I finally got everything done on the buggy, including footpeg extenders and also a cross bracing for the rear.

I just got notified that my buddy Alex will not be able to make it to the El Mirage event along with Dino. Since both of them cancelled, we are planning to meet up later in the summer instead. I will not be testing this buggy at El Mirage so will be testing it on the hard packs on Galveston beach ( East Beach). This means I have more time now. No time crunch.

A few options that I will be working on since I have more time: fender , side plates , hot wire setup , and any other ideas you guys can come up with.

Here's a few more pics .. I will get final pics of it once there tires comes in on Tuesday. Looks like i will be powdercoating it if there are not changes after my test ride.

popeyethewelder - 28-5-2012 at 09:54 AM

Nice seeing this buggy coming along Van....its gonna weigh a ton thats for sure

pyro22487 - 28-5-2012 at 09:59 AM

Keep me in mind if yo need a test pilot Van. I think its awesome how you are building a new bug every few weeks or so and they are all so different.

van - 28-5-2012 at 02:45 PM

ptw ... its pretty much finish. Yeap .. the goal was a heavy straight line buggy. The rims and ftires are 75 lbs alone. With the buggy , it will be a total of 150 lbs. This is good for dry lake runs. Might be a tad heavy on the beach :smilegrin:

popeyethewelder - 28-5-2012 at 10:37 PM

Van....I note you can raise or lower your rear axle...but you also have set a camber on it....that means you will NOT be able to rotate the axle at all, other wise you will end up with too much toe in or toe out....so the question I am asking is, why bother having an axle you have made to raise or lower when in reality you will not be able to use it?

Also why bother with camber at all anyway, camber is set to take some of the load forces off the hub, during tight speedy corners, your buggy is a straight liner, and the rims you have used will be more than capable of handling any forces a kite buggier can thow at it I would guess.

snowspider - 29-5-2012 at 06:30 AM

ptw glad you asked the camber question, was wondering that myself but figured the details would come to light in the testing. Keep posting updates Van, fellow builders are pretty excited about this buggy.

soliver - 29-5-2012 at 06:31 AM

Van, I've been following this build and man that thing is gonna look SWEET!!!

If its not to late, (no powder coat yet) you should mount the old dart style motorcycle tail lights on the rear axle and figure out some kind of actuator or accelerometer to mount to your kite handles so that when you put it in zenith the "brake lights" come on.... that'd be cool. ... :lol:

While Popeye makes good points, with all the respect in the world to PTW, it seems to me that the intention is just to look really cool, IMHO. It seems here that here function will follow form.

Have you picked a color for powdercoat yet?... WE NEED PICS MAN!!!! (vids too)

in all seriousness though, it looks awesome. Thanks for sharing.

PS. how's baby girl?

van - 29-5-2012 at 07:02 AM

The camber is on the bolt, not on the axle. Adjust your height , then tighten the bolt in position so there is no toe. The idea with the camber was to fight against the side pull of the kite. Since it's just a bolt, the camber is not a permanent part of the buggy. I just need to replace the bolt to remove camber. I've never had camber on my buggy so figure this would be fun to test out.

if you look closely , you will see a long bolt ( goes through the wheel) is welded to a shorter bolt ( goes through the axle). The heads of the bolt are welded together. I notice the folks in Europe do this to get camber and it's a great idea. By doing this kind of bolt welding, you can actually weld different size bolts together so you can use different wheel size bearing!! great side benefit.

No color picked out yet for the powdercoating. What do you guys suggest?? Yellow would really scream out!!

soliver - 29-5-2012 at 10:07 AM

i really like blue, think that might look cool, but yellow would definitely be a scream!

I like the bit about the bolt/ camber action, thats pretty cool, and very clever.

no go on the break lights eh? hahaha

Chad - 29-5-2012 at 10:20 AM

well your calling it a "stinger race" so maye a two tone = Yellow in front faded into a black in the back? sounds like fun! :frog:

popeyethewelder - 29-5-2012 at 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by van
The camber is on the bolt, not on the axle.

Got that, I can see that now you have pointed it out to me, nice job Van and usual, with every buggy you make I can see improvements...class act

And you are right, they are common in Europe, and I must have made about 50 sets myself for other people, although the UK racers on the whole prefer a separate cambered axle instead

popeyethewelder - 29-5-2012 at 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by soliver

it seems to me that the intention is just to look really cool, IMHO. It seems here that here function will follow form.

Not entirely sure what you mean here tbh...

soliver - 29-5-2012 at 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by popeyethewelder

Quote:

Originally posted by soliver

it seems to me that the intention is just to look really cool, IMHO. It seems here that here function will follow form.

Not entirely sure what you mean here tbh...

Oh, I just meant that it (at first) seemed like function follows form, in that this buggy seemed more about looking really cool over true functionality, but on second glance it seems like I may have been wrong. It looks like both how it looks and how it performs are of equal importance here. My mistake.

Not to say that Van was intending ONLY to make a beautiful thing rather than a functional thing,... just my first impression was that the look of the thing was more what it was about.

these are the kind of BS arguments we used to have in art school. :lol:

I see now that I was wrong in that impression.

Still though, it's gonna look friggin sweet

BeamerBob - 29-5-2012 at 11:50 AM

In discussing with many who have been down the cambered wheel route, all have said not to bother with camber if the wheels and bearings are up to the task of the side load. Seems like I've read somewhere that if camber is in place, a certain amount of toe-in is required to lessen drag. Can't quote or explain about it further though. I'll be running the disc wheels straight up.

I'm disappointed you and Alex won't be there this weekend. I was looking to riding with you guys and seeing this new buggy.

WELDNGOD - 29-5-2012 at 12:52 PM

One bad thing Van..... Those rims will look like crap if you get em in seawater. Keep it away from the beach,and in the desert only!

WELDNGOD - 29-5-2012 at 12:54 PM

and put some side plates on those spokes. Makes me uneasy just lookin at em on a buggy! (amputation hazard)

van - 29-5-2012 at 04:09 PM

Just to clarify , this buggy is my way of letting the frustration of the daily grind out. My original intention was to build a speed buggy with disc wheels from Seismic. There was some problems with the production run of those wheels so I figure .. why not use some Harley Davidson Sporters wheels and get some bling on my buggy. I don't know how functional the wheels are since they are heavy. You never know, it might be what helps the buggy to attain the speed. Most of you know I am an engineer and love to build but you also know I am not the most experience with race buggies. It will be a learning experience for me to build this one and see how she runs.

Soliver .. you are correct .. the intention was both form and function. I like to build functional buggies but I also try to make them pleasing anyway I can. The form part we can agree on , the function part .. haha .. we don't know yet!! :singing:

WG .. yes, I was planning on side plates and wheel covers but in the meantime , those spokes are wicked!!! haha .. yes, salt is gonna kill them. I was planning to only use it on the desert but since I am not going to El Mirage, I might do a quick test on the beach and rinse them really well.

soliver - 29-5-2012 at 05:27 PM

All I can tell you Van, is that I'm super excited to see the finished product,... can't wait to see powdercoated final pics

S

van - 29-5-2012 at 08:25 PM

Ok .. I know what I'm not good at .. and that is mounting a freaking motorcycle tire on a skinny motorcycle rim!!

Looks like I will have to take it to the shop. Got little scratches on my rims already and one bent screw driver.

I got the first side of the tire on but can't get the rest on there .. this is the furthest I can get the tire on.

MDK - 30-5-2012 at 05:52 AM

eesh those low profile tires are not easy...I use to mount dirt bike tires using lots of HOT soapy water

van - 30-5-2012 at 06:44 AM

only experience I have is mounting bicycle tires so this is a bit of a challenge so I dont' have any tools except for a couple screw drivers. Yeah the tire design for street so sits pretty flat. Also super stiff so doesn't stretch at all. Gonna check out the local shop to see if any of them can mount motorcycle tires. There's a Harley place near me but they probably charge an arm and maybe 2 legs to mount one. :spin:

labrat - 30-5-2012 at 07:03 AM

I spent Saturday night on You Tube because I was having difficulty with a farm tire. I did find my solution (turned out to be a five minute job), but you cannot care about scratches.

Here is another video I found that "might" help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6sH8WRl6yI

This one seems more appropriate. He uses three small spoon type tire irons. They should be pretty cheap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw0B2gIwbBg&feature=relat...

snowspider - 30-5-2012 at 07:12 AM

When I was still tinkering on my long speed buggy I came across some bicycle racing wheel covers , some of which may work for you if you decide thats the way to go , pricey but oh so nice. You saw my stick on shrink to fit covers at WBB a while back , very functional but proof of concept quality is not what your building there.

rocfighter - 30-5-2012 at 05:10 PM

Van you need to get the seal edge of the tire to the center of the rim. Then it will give you room to get it over. If done right it should go on just by hand or with a nylon tire bar. And lots of soap!!

van - 30-5-2012 at 08:08 PM

My attempt was a fail and also ended up pinching the inner tube so it was leaking air. Had to buy a new tube. Finally took it to the motorcycle shop and had them put it on. A little pricey just to put 3 tires on but atleast I didn't end up destroying the rims.

snowspider - 30-5-2012 at 08:24 PM

I can't stop smiling... those are beeuutifull.

rocfighter - 5-6-2012 at 05:13 AM

Is there going to be more on this machine? We can't hold out much longer!

van - 5-6-2012 at 07:08 AM

Hopefully today .. :wee: powdercoater said the parts should be done today. I'm waiting for the phone call so i can pick it up. The buggy is gonna be canary yellow, black covers and seat with yellow stripes.

bobalooie57 - 5-6-2012 at 07:27 AM

You didn't say black and yellow, did you?? snowspider, are you O.K.? I'm afraid your head might just explode, now! :bird:

edit: just like mine almost did when he posted the pics of the black with limegreen siderail covers/seat!

snowspider - 5-6-2012 at 08:08 AM

I just upped the # of posts I can view ,saw "black and yellow", felt like my head got zapped ,WOW, came out of my mouth , and visions of Black and Yellow motorcycles, cars ,buggies, bumblebees, flashed thru my brain! The cover of which magazine is that going to be on? SWEEEEEET!

van - 5-6-2012 at 07:00 PM

Ok... I didn't get a chance to put it together and also we don't have the seat for it yet. It was a last minute decision on the yellow so didn't make a matching seat yet.

Just so you get a little kite buggy porn before you go to bed ... haha.. here are the parts:

rocfighter - 5-6-2012 at 07:55 PM

OH YEAH she's beautiful... bomp bomp... OH YEAH...bomp bomp:o
Who knows that song. Who sang it? YELLOW!! Fitting I believe. This is going to be sweet. I think my ugly A$$ will look good in this. How much for the tickets??? :lol:

BeamerBob - 5-6-2012 at 08:01 PM

Is this your first powder coat buggy Van? Looks very sharp indeed. I've often considered yellow when I have toyed with powdercoating in the past.

van - 5-6-2012 at 08:26 PM

bob,

This is my first yellow powdercoat. There's a production powdercoater outfit in town that does alot of cabinets and industrial parts. Normally he does a texture flat black. I usually do texture black for my buggy because he runs that color about 3 times a week. I can have something powdercoated within one day. He happen to have one of his customer request canary yellow on some special order parts. I got lucky with the timing and threw my buggy into this batch. Came out sweet!! it looks much better in person. So far, I've powdercoated about 6 buggies and painted about 6. The paint holds up well if you don't scratch it. The texture powder coat is nice because scratches don't show up as easily as the shiny stuff.

The powdercoater told me that if it gets scratched he can actually touch it up and re-fire it up to 2 times. After that, he would just sand blast it and redo the part. He does high volume so can offer to do an entire buggy for around $150 for most colors. The part first gets media blasted in a giant spinning enclosure. It then goes through a 100 feet assembly line where it gets acid washed and etched. It then goes through a dryer and then sprayed then baked.

snowspider - 6-6-2012 at 06:25 AM

Van luck had nothing to do with the color choice. It was fate. Black and Yellow with a large dose of Bling is pure Americana. HD will be proud , you'll have to send them some pics.

Chad - 6-6-2012 at 06:47 AM

WoW that came out nice! not as bright as i first thought. i like it....:bouncing:

Looks like my old Ducati

Wolfpaklv - 6-6-2012 at 10:40 AM

@erratic winds...the bolt never came loose...We snapped it! We have since gone to military grade bolts. And with the help of A Wind of Change we are making some other mods. Live and learn, that is part of any building process.

Good luck Van! Your buggy looks pretty cool. Looking forward to seeing it at Ivanpah. Come visit us for the high winds in the beginning of march for the high wind. Winds are the best in the first week of March.

van - 6-6-2012 at 12:26 PM

That's the plan. Ivanpah or el mirage. This buggy does not belong on the beach..haha

van - 6-6-2012 at 04:33 PM

Ok, so here's the look I'm after ...

Speed Racer X !!!

rocfighter - 6-6-2012 at 04:56 PM

Van are you and your sister gonna make you up a suit like that too? And make your little guy one to match too!

van - 6-6-2012 at 09:57 PM

I haven't gone that far yet .. haha .. no suit yet. Designing the seat now ... in the meantime .. some buggy porn ...

Kober - 6-6-2012 at 10:01 PM

congrats on another beautiful product ..... very nice ...

bobalooie57 - 6-6-2012 at 10:21 PM

I hate to be bearer of bad news, but check with PTW on the orientation of your tires. If you look at his landsegler wheels/tires the "v"s in his tread point forward on all three wheels, where two of your wheels the "v"s point backwards.(the front tire and the back left tire) The back right tire has the "v"s in the tread pointing forward. I believe he had posted this info, correcting someone else that had mounted their tires backwards.

edit: actually it was danger correcting PTW in this thread.
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=22073

snowspider - 7-6-2012 at 08:02 AM

In the square dance world the caller would say "circle to the left and dosey doe." If that doesn't work its back to the cycle shop. Here's hoping it's a dosey-doe issue , looking incredably sweeeet though.

buggydanny - 7-6-2012 at 08:12 AM

Or he could just unbolt them, rotate them 180 degrees and bolt them on again.

I would like them oriented all the same. I don't think that it would make a big difference which way they are pointed, but I suppose that if the mouth of the V were pointed forward they would dissipate water better.

BeamerBob - 7-6-2012 at 08:13 AM

I saw a motorcycle parked the other day and the tires looked to be backwards to me. However they were mounted correctly with the rotation arrow pointing the right direction. I think the point of the v should always touch the ground first. I've wondered though, on a dry lake does it matter and/or does having it backwards actually help with the sideways slip angles we generate?

martinipro - 7-6-2012 at 08:24 AM

Like car tires, the tip of the tread pattern should always touch the ground first.
I doubt having it backwards would benefit sidedrag on a dry surface either.

What the Arrow shaped pattern does is displace water from the under the center of the tire to the sides. If the pattern is the wrong way, you would be sending water from the sides towards the middle of the tire, making a puddle right in the center of the tire and causing it to hydroplane.

Wolfpaklv - 7-6-2012 at 09:33 AM

So if your riding on the a buggy with flipped tires you would probably be creating a line of splash in the ceter of your tire. It would be flinging water like a saw blade. Might look pretty cool!!!

Besides that it doesn't seem like it would change drag or speed. But I'm not a tire expert.

snowspider - 7-6-2012 at 09:50 AM

Danny I think the hubs have a brake flange on one side so that has to match whatever plan Van has for them, followed by the orientaion of the tires(I assume flange inside for back brakes). In regard to asthetics ,V point forward just looks faster.

bobalooie57 - 7-6-2012 at 10:10 AM

It might be best to just give 'em a run the way they are, on the lake bed, it might not matter. Anyway, I forgot to say how cool this buggy is already, and when you work your seat/siderail magic, well, I can only imagine how sweet it's gonna look! Another classic, Van! :thumbup:

BeamerBob - 7-6-2012 at 10:29 AM

Water displacement is seldom an issue on US beaches and never on the lakebed. Just rolling along, I don't think tire rotation direction would make much difference. With the tire trying to resist sliding sideways, I've wondered if the groove aligning with the direction of the tire's slip angle might impede it's traction. Whereas with the Vs pointing backwards, the grooves would be perpendicular to the slip angle. It might take instruments to detect a difference but it's just a theory. The tires on my landseglers seem to have an X pattern with grooves pointing each way, but they do indeed have a directional arrow. I'll just point them like the arrow says. Parts are incoming so not long till I can mount them up.

van - 7-6-2012 at 12:51 PM

I noticed that I mounted the two tires backward when we were taking pictures. I was wondering how many would catch that. Yes, I saw Popeyes thread about orientation so actually ask the motorcycle shop to make sure one of the backwheels was reversed. And yes, it's because of the brake flange. I have the brake flange facing inward. The front tires need to be swap with the back tires to make things look right. Like bobby mentioned, I don't think it really matters but looks better if they all rotate the same.

van - 7-6-2012 at 09:08 PM

We probably won't get a chance to finish the seat this weekend. I have to replace the central AC at my mom's house this weekend.

I move the tires around so they all face the same direction. If you look carefully , there's a RED line on the right side of the tire. I guess this is to help you make sure they are facing the correct way.

I went ahead and put my old seat on the buggy to see how it fits.

van - 7-6-2012 at 09:19 PM

What do you think about this seat design??

Or this one??

cheezycheese - 8-6-2012 at 05:13 AM

I like the first seat...

cheezycheese - 8-6-2012 at 05:16 AM

Buggy is beautiful !! Anything available to cover those axle bolts in the rear...? Looks like a shin dinger....

cheezycheese - 8-6-2012 at 05:24 AM

BTW... I know we all tease you on all the buggies in the house, but a dual player arcade machine in the foyer....? Really...? :cool2::o

soliver - 8-6-2012 at 07:44 AM

Awesome bug Van, just really awesome,... I like the yellow, didn't think I would, but it really looks awesome, Congrats!!!!

And I agree with cheezy, I like the first seat design.

Racer X... awesome. :smilegrin:

bobalooie57 - 8-6-2012 at 07:45 AM

I like the first seat, too. Can you make the "bee" yellow and black like a yellow jacket? You could still write "stinger" in red.
@cheezy, you got eyes like a hawk. I never noticed the arcade game, was too caught up in the buggy pron(tires all sorted out, too!)! Thinking snowspider ought to buy this and let me give it a try!

cheezycheese - 8-6-2012 at 08:21 AM

BTW- Henry is getting big !!

snowspider - 8-6-2012 at 08:34 AM

Sweeeeter! I think Van will be riding this one for awhile unless someone makes him an offer he can't refuse,and I don't think I can get a loan on my house big enough to bring the yellow jacket stinger home.

pyro22487 - 8-6-2012 at 09:03 AM

I think the buggy may be a bit big for your first tester there Van. And the first pic looks better.

popeyethewelder - 8-6-2012 at 11:29 AM

Looks pretty awesme Van, how does it compare to your other buggies dimensionally

Beaudryjoel - 8-6-2012 at 06:44 PM

I say first seat
@ cheesy-
After looking again , I noticed the fill size John Deere "gator" in the background.
Just wondering how exactly all this stuff makes its way in and out of the foyer!

cheezycheese - 8-6-2012 at 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beaudryjoel
I say first seat
@ cheesy-
After looking again , I noticed the fill size John Deere "gator" in the background.

I saw that too, but I was giving the benefit of the doubt that it was Henry's...
:spin:

van - 8-6-2012 at 07:53 PM

Haha... the foyer area is small but enough to fit a buggy. The arcade is actually in the dining room. We don't use the formal dining so it became bike and arcade and crap room..haha.

The buggy is dimensionally identical to my regular stinger except for the extra length (6") that comes out behind the axle. It looks masssive because of the wheels. Like I said before, this was my fun build. No guarantee on the performance yet. Total weight came out to about 130 lbs. The 3 wheels are half of the buggy weight. It will be hard to balance it but we won't know until I can get her out to the drylake.

Btw... yellow jacket stinger it is! Yellow bee with red word as requested.

rocfighter - 9-6-2012 at 05:57 AM

I also like the first one. And I first noticed the Mig/ Plasma (which ever it is) in the corner. I'm missing metal today I guess.
Van Henry is going to be as big as you soon. Better hide the buggy keys! :smilegrin: