Power Kite Forum

Phantom 2 Jelly fish behavior; where is the support?

geokite - 1-7-2012 at 11:12 AM

I think I have been patient. An email to the PL website (http://peterlynn.com/feedback/) and two emails to Marijn at VO. No reply, and it has been a while.

Tried the 6m Phantom 2 out again this weekend, this time with the stock bridle. Tried it with the bridle adjustment knot furthest away from the kite (per recommendation from Beamer Bob), and using 20m lines. Got the jelly fish behavior, when nicely powered up, see video. This happens in straight line flight, bar pushed away, irregardless of direction of travel. Also got this behavior when the adjustment knot is in the middle.

http://youtu.be/pijcJHx08-8
http://youtu.be/_pEKqbFcOXs
http://youtu.be/v6VjPOpvj0Y


Tried it with the bridle adjustment knot closest to the kite. See picture below; the bridle line isn't even tensioned through the pulley. Did they even test this size of the P2, or did they just scale it down from one of the other sizes? REally PL? I guess this is one way of flying straight off the kite, bypassing the pulley...



Like I mentioned in the other thread, this could be just my kite (sewn wrong or something). But I'm really disappointed with the level of customer support on this. Not one reply?

Unless something happens on this issue, stay away from this kite (at least this size). I'd be wary of PL kites in general if this is their level of support.

lunchbox - 1-7-2012 at 11:38 AM

Wow....after seeing the video...I had no idea the jellyfishing was so extreme.

After seeing that happen even on 1 setting, I would not have even tried other setting's. Well maybe I would have, but still, to even have that type of behavior on one setting, would have caused me to ask for a new kite! Props to you for being so patience and for trying so many settings.

Any luck reaching out to the dealer (I'm assuming you bought it new)?

carltb - 1-7-2012 at 12:10 PM

Im sorry you're having such a bad time but im sure the boys are looking into it.
youll also need to contact the shop you bought it from.

the only times ive ever had this behaviour from an arc has been when wet and in high gusty winds.

oh yea have you checked the inlet socks are opened and flow freely?

pbc - 1-7-2012 at 12:34 PM

Steve,

Wow. That's REALLY bad. I think you should return the kite to the dealer. Your patience has been ample.

Maybe it's your kite, maybe it's the design of this size, but you will not know which until you push this back up the chain and the dealer or VO has an opportunity to give you a replacement.

They will not fully understand how you feel about this kite until your return it and ask for your money back.

Philip

mougl - 1-7-2012 at 12:37 PM

I'm sure they are on this, please be patient :) I know they have been pretty busy with a few projects lately. I know it can be frustrating. I'm not sure it's the P2 in general, my 15 doesn't act this way. How gusty are the winds you are flying in? Is it 25 g30 or more like 10 g30?

Edit: just watched the vids. Wow, that's BAD!!! I agree with Philip on this one.

geokite - 1-7-2012 at 12:42 PM

mougl: at the onset of the jellyfishing, the wind is quite steady. It was El Mirage wind in the late afternoon; overall range of wind was 15-20.

carltb: The kite fills up just fine, no different from other arcs. I'll check them out, but they can't be accessed from the inside (unless I do so unstiching)

Everyone: dealer has been notified of a probable return.

carltb - 1-7-2012 at 01:31 PM

Sorry i ment just just make sure they are not trapped under the webbing. a quick shake and pull from the outside will sort it if they are.

Feyd - 1-7-2012 at 01:55 PM

WOW! I just watched the videos. I've never seen anything like that in any of my P2 either prototype or production. My 6m has never shown that kind of behavior so I'm reluctant to blame the size.

Just to recap as I've been a little out of the loop with my summertime activities have you flown it w/o the bridal? Are your internal settings adjusted in any manner or are they full loose? Does it only doe the jellyfish bit when you are going across the window or doe it do it at other times? Doe it do it when going up or down wind? Will it do it static flying? Have you tried it on longer than 20m lines? are you running the new Navi-bar?

Sorry for all the questions especially after how long you've been waiting for some help on this but I'm very curious about why you are having this issue.

I'm really curious about what is going on with the bridal. My knee jerk reaction is that the middle bit is simpy too long. Like it's the wrong one for the given size wing. But that should only make the wing fly off the front and rear bit like it was on pigtails ? Maybe not.. If you want I can measure out my bridal components and give you the specs.

geokite - 1-7-2012 at 02:21 PM

Feyd: Yes, my first flight in the buggy with it was without the bridle (30cm difference between the top and bottom pigtails). Same behavior. All straps are loose. Jellyfishing is at the edge of the window most of the time, but I have seen it start to jellyfish right after full inflation going up in the window after launch. Doesn't matter if the buggy is going upwind or downwind, as the kite is on the edge either way. Does it when nicely powered up, not when underpowered. Except for the rare instance mentioned before, it will not do it static flying. Yes, it jellyfished with 24m lines prior (when using the direct pigtails to the kite). No, not running the navi-bar; all four lines are equal when the bar is pulled back all the way. Jellyfishing can start and continue no matter where the bar is (out or in).

Maybe mine just got the wrong bridle (I doubt it, as the direct pigtails didn't help). But if you can send the measurements that would be great, thanks

Feyd - 1-7-2012 at 03:06 PM

Here are the measurements on my 6m Ph2. I don't recall changing any of them and to the best of my knowledge they are stock.

I dissasembled the VPC and all measurements are individual and to the end of the loop.

My smarter half (she's got the most time on the Phantoms after me) and I were watching the videos and we both agree that sometimes we see a very slight oscillation in the wing during heavy acceleration if it's a little gusty but nothing close to what you have shown.

vpcmeasure6mp2.jpg - 95kB

Feyd - 1-7-2012 at 03:13 PM

Does the kite surge when it goes nuts? How does the bar react?

BeamerBob - 1-7-2012 at 03:14 PM

Mine seemed to improve as I moved the bridle attachment point, but my 6m has the same behavior. I'm running the new nav bar and stock vpc bridle. No extensions on the lines. I was running mine with straps all loose.

I agree that a kite that had this much development shouldn't have to be adjusted to minimize this kind of behavior. These were kites from the first batch out of the factory so i wonder if they got something wrong on this model. The 9m that I flew at nabx had similar behavior in powerful gusty winds. I was a bit unnerved by the way it flew because I'd never flown an arc that moved like that.

If the boys at VO are working on this, they should let us know that to avoid the appearance of not caring. These videos might put a damper on sales till it's worked out.

BeamerBob - 1-7-2012 at 03:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Feyd
Does the kite surge when it goes nuts? How does the bar react?


No reaction in the bar and there is just a reduction in power when this starts. Bar position has little effect if any.

PHREERIDER - 1-7-2012 at 04:07 PM

the pic of the bridle looks all slack, just like no bridle! balance point of front shoulder MAY not allow load being so close to front, bridle pulley should be loaded. or am i seeing it wrong .

the phantom i had P15 did the same thing more for and aft.(it also had a shoulder repair) ...that had more of tip oscillation look to me.

again from the pic, the bridle is all slack. thats maybe what you get off the bridle?


FEYD diagram has a loaded birdle

jellyfish - 1-7-2012 at 04:21 PM

Long time ago I had the phantoms when they first came out, I had the 18,12,and 9m, thy were a little slw to turn and lacked grunt needed for surfing so there was a mod developed not by pl but i think it was bob dawson and another guy his name slips me now my apologies to him, to address these issues back then. it was common for these guys to take a kite and make it better they actually had many of there tweeks incorporated into the new designs remember the TET trailing edge tuck, they also liked to adjust the straps inside the kite which led to pl putting strap adjusters into the kites one of these mods I tried was tightening of the middle strap in the shoulders I had over done it one day and went too much the p-18 would fly like your 6 not as bad but similar. it was worse as you pulled in the bar, so moral of my story is yes there is something wrong with the kite it may be the internal straps or the fabric has stretched on the skin or the strap has shrunk, who Knows only VO and as usual they are tight lipped too bad they never admitted any issues with any other kites or listened to any of there dealers like original PL kites did with bob and others, I doubt they will now, good luck chuck buyer be ware.

Jim

Todd - 1-7-2012 at 05:18 PM

I can say that in really choppy air I have video of a regular 12m Phantom behaving this way but video number 2 was a little disturbing. I'll shoot the crew at VO an email to get some input. I wish I had more time on the P2 to help, sorry.

Feyd - 1-7-2012 at 06:17 PM

YEs Phree you're correct, the bridal isn't fuctioning properly. Or it at least appears that way. I've flown the 12m without a VPC and it flew great so I'm not sure if the lack of tension on the connecting line between the fron and rear of the VPC is going to cause what we are seeing here.

It looks like there are oscillations in the AOA tho. You can kinda see it if you pause and play the vids. I dunno, I haven't see anything like it in any of the Phantom 2's I've flown.

Wolfpaklv - 1-7-2012 at 06:45 PM

Hey Geo,

Sorry for the delay in response. Please call me @ 702.813.6480.

geokite - 1-7-2012 at 09:02 PM

Feyd: The POV from the flier in the buggy is quite different; the kite surges forward, leaving the wingtips behind, then the wingtips surge forward, leaving the center behind. It is very violent, so much that it appears the kite will be damaged. The bar pulls back and forth a little bit, but holding the bar steady doesn't kill the jellyfishing.

arkay - 1-7-2012 at 10:41 PM

From the first video it looked normal, but the second video is crazy. I would think there has to be something wrong with the kite body to get that type of flight. nuts.

PHREERIDER - 2-7-2012 at 07:03 AM

wobble oscillation more than jellyfishing is what i see. getting pass the nomenclature ...from the pic alone i would say the 6m kite has the wrong size bridle. or a wrong size component within the bridle.

i'm sure ALL can be flown off the bridle but with limited range and accompanying erratic behavior.

first step at correction would be actively load the bridle , shortening the pulley line would be a good starting point ...then demand a new bridle and compare. or something like that. bob mentioned adjustments with improvements in that direction. lets us know looks like some good mileage coming on this thread.

geokite - 2-7-2012 at 09:40 AM

Phree: When the adjustment knot was set furthest from the kite (and at the middle), the pulley line is tensioned, but the jellyfishing was still present.

pbc - 2-7-2012 at 10:08 AM

I don't think the pulley line should ever be that slack. If the pulley line is only tight when it is attached furthest from the kite it is probably never putting enough load on the pulley. If it doesn't transfer load to the pulley the spars can bend and the mid-section of the foil would distort away from the flyer.

Watching the videos, the spars do appear to be bending--or at least the spar pocket is distorted. It's hard to tell as the kite is generally, hard to track when the load is highest and impossible to track when the wing tips start their undulation.

I think Phree is right that the pulley line must be shortened. Who knows if that is sufficient, but it does seem necessary.

Philip

PHREERIDER - 2-7-2012 at 10:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by geokite
Phree: When the adjustment knot was set furthest from the kite (and at the middle), the pulley line is tensioned, but the jellyfishing was still present.



then the whole thing may be too big, if its all the way tight. from the pic it appears to be the wrong size. could be, FOR EXAMPLE a 9m or 12m bridle, on your 6m.

its simple start to the problem, it will only get MORE complex as solutions are looked for in the kite itself

tridude - 2-7-2012 at 06:11 PM

I'm no arc expert but that bridal pic did seem slack...........

soliver - 2-7-2012 at 06:20 PM

Forgive me my newbie-ness, but I'm too curious to stay quiet,... Why is the "jellyfish" motion bad? what is detrimental to it?

Sorry if that's a dumb question; I am just unfamiliar with Arc's.

Any word yet from the dealer??

Feyd - 2-7-2012 at 06:31 PM

On the lighter side it's annoying and inefficient and on the heavier side of things it's potentially dangerous and judging by the amount of flex in the spars and the frequency of the osscilation it's likely to damage the kite. Arcs a known for thier smooth flying qualities. This clearly isn't right.

The bridal absoultely should be tighter. That's why I want to know the dimensions on his bridle to compare to mine but as stated before I don't think the bridle is THE issue but it is an issue and should be remedied. As it is right now he may as well be flying w/o the bridle but as we heard earlier it had the same flaws with or without the bridle. If the kite is sound it should be able to fly without the bridle.

pbc - 2-7-2012 at 07:05 PM

The oscillation can limit the maximum speed for the kite, or make for a rough throbbing ride, but the big issue is safety. The kite can fall back from the edge unpredictably. When you are go over 30 MPH you really don't want a kite falling behind you. It can result in sudden deceleration, OOBE, line breakage, line wrap around your back tires, and other unpleasant things.

I have a big Peel that flaps it's tail at higher speed. It's a big baby at low speed, but, as the wind speed rises, the middle of the trailing edge literally flaps. This creates lots of drag and slows the kite down.

It doesn't slow down on the edge, but if you cross the power zone it slows down just when you need it to move quickly to the other edge. It'll about rip you arms off as it flaps its way across the sky to the other edge of the wind window.

Philip

OmniSmurfZ - 2-7-2012 at 07:14 PM

My venom2 jellyfishes a little bit, but no where near as much as that second video shows, woowzah. I just always imagine it as pacmac chompin those gusts.

geokite - 2-7-2012 at 09:56 PM

I got word from VO on what I should do next to analyze the problem. I'll be in communication with them and get back to the group when something is determined.

I doesn't appear to have anything to do with the bridle.

Thanks for everyone's help, glad to get this sorted out (really don't want to put any more wear on my 6m P1, such a great kite...)

PHREERIDER - 3-7-2012 at 05:00 AM

glad you r headed toward resolve, update with details .

BeamerBob - 3-7-2012 at 12:09 PM

I'll be back home next week and will fly my 6m and measure it's bridle to compare to Feyd's and Geo's kites. I'll take pics of it on the ground and in flight to compare. Will video too if can roll in the buggyVery interested to see where this goes and to see if my kite has the same problem given that it behaved the same way on the same day.

zracek - 6-7-2012 at 02:05 PM

Where is the video not working?
Ziggy.

erratic winds - 6-7-2012 at 02:54 PM

GEO- why did you take the videos down? You haven't posted "problem solved", so they are still of much use...especially to anyone who might be thinking of buying a 6m PII.

carltb - 6-7-2012 at 03:32 PM

the video wasnt of a 6m charger

erratic winds - 6-7-2012 at 10:19 PM

Whoops, sorry carl, was posting in haste and made an obvious mistake. Will correct. Thank you.

-mj- - 26-7-2012 at 07:40 AM

In regards to PL customer support not being 'on it immediately' like we normally are, the guy handling the PL inbox (me) had some health issues so unfortunately some of the email we have received in that period of time were overlooked.

I am not apologizing for my personal situation, I do feel bad for Geo though and felt I had to vent this.


other note;
Carl, update ur sig mate! it's peterlynn.com (plproducts has been off for a while now :duh:

Feyd - 26-7-2012 at 10:56 AM

Just out of curiousity, did anyone get the VPC measurements for thier 6m's?

BeamerBob - 26-7-2012 at 11:33 AM

Just got mine out to measure it.
VPC measurements are taken with the VPC attached and measured from their tab attachment points.

Trailing edge pigtail - 10-13/16"
V line total length - 52-1/4"
Leading edge pigtail - 34"

My VPC adjuster seems to not begin to tension the V line until the 3rd position away from the kite. On the arc setup page there is a mod mentioned (referring to Scorpions) to add figure 8 knots in the V line to shorten it. It looks like doing this would allow the V line to be tensioned in all VPC settings instead of only the last 2 settings.

Now my curiosity is piqued and I'm going to get the 9m out and compare ratios.

The 9 has the same loose V line till it hits the 3rd position from the kite.

Trailing edge pigtail - 12-5/8" %change from 6m - 16%
V line total length - 62" 19%
Leading edge pigtail - 37.5" 10%

BeamerBob - 29-7-2012 at 12:32 AM

Any thoughts on the mod that shortens the V line on the bridle? I'm hoping to get to ride some next week and the testing will continue.

Bladerunner - 29-7-2012 at 08:53 AM

It is almost a month now and I am still wondering what is going on with this issue?

Is this just showing up on the 6m or is this an issue that amplifies the smaller the sail?

Has PL come out with an answer / explanation ?

BeamerBob - 29-7-2012 at 03:02 PM

These issues popped up at Elmers the weekend after Memorial Day. I've heard talk that something is in the works but no real resolution. Apparently, Steve and I are the only 6m PIIs sold in NA and we were riding together when we discovered the issue.

BeamerBob - 21-9-2012 at 01:27 PM

I understand that Geokite's replacement has been received and mine is on the way. Turns out that there was a glitch in mfg. that caused some tolerances to be missed in the fabric sewing. New corrected versions have been mfrd, and are delivered or on the way. I should receive shipment late next week, just in time for a bachelor weekend that I hope gives me wind to get dusty.

pbc - 21-9-2012 at 01:41 PM

Bob,

Thanks so much for the update. After all the chit chat this week about P2s on the Charger 2 thread I was jonesin' for an update to the JellyFish thread.

It's so good to know there is a diagnosis, a solution, and a good kiting weekend in your near future.

Philip

geokite - 21-9-2012 at 02:47 PM

Just gotta get some sticks! I'll test as soon as they come in, hopefully in time for Elmers on the 29th with Freddy+company.

Kite went from the blue to the green+black. I'll look at the bridle tonight and see how it matches up with the measurements that Bob posted above.

BeamerBob - 21-9-2012 at 04:02 PM

Steve, it's my understanding that the issue was in the fabric, and not necessarily with the bridle, but this is secondhand info. I never heard directly from anyone at PL.

Straight bridle might be viable now with a kite built per the design. I'll test stock again before making mods and adjustments other than probably tightening up the vpc to start.

tridude - 22-9-2012 at 09:41 AM

Or you could just go with the Escape or Fury.............they fly nice:lol::duh::duh::duh::duh::lol::lol:

Bladerunner - 22-9-2012 at 09:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BeamerBob
Steve, it's my understanding that the issue was in the fabric, and not necessarily with the bridle, but this is secondhand info. I never heard directly from anyone at PL.




I am left wondering how you got resolution ? Was it the Shop owner ( we all know who ! ) that did the digging and got you a new kite ?

This thread was all about not hearing back from Peter Lynn as part of the issue.

Did you contact peter Lynn yourself as well or leave it up to the trusty shop owner ? :puzzled:

BeamerBob - 22-9-2012 at 11:27 AM

BR my only contact through this whole issue was Brian Holgate. He has stayed on top of things, and moved things along but has had to dig and pry for information as this issue progressed. Thank goodness PL has him on this side of the pond handling things like this. I'm not sure if there is a culture difference but this was handled in a much different method that would seem prudent with a new product release with an issue. Roughly 4 months is a long time to ask early adopting customers to wait for resolution on a manufacturing or design issue. I was more than willing to be part of the solution but when contacting a PL rep directly was told it was being handled.

All is well if the new kite comes and it is all we've hoped it would be for the 3 years of development. You know I'll be vocal of how it performs! :singing:

This is the second time I've bought a kite out of the first release of a new design. I had issues both times. I'll probably wait for things to settle out if buying a new design in the future.

Bladerunner - 22-9-2012 at 11:50 AM

I am a cheap OG and have never exactly understood putting yourself on a waiting list for a new kite that you don't even know what the graphics are yet no matter how it actually performs? I got the Chargers not realizing that by outperform the Syn' they meant outperform my needs.

Without local access to PL I am back to " Buy so you can fly " ! I feel like buying PL from down south will become complicated if things go wrong since PL will be slow to deal with things.

Graphics aren't everything but I was very glad I didn't prebuy a P2 when I saw what a departure they were from that classic . It is sounding like a kite I will go to but not until they sell for about equal to the originals are now. I'll continue to enjoy the added thrill of flying the coolest looking old kite on the beach until then!

geokite - 23-9-2012 at 08:08 PM

Sorry I'm kinda late to responding.

I first got contact from people in VO in Holland, in response to seeing the video I had up on youtube (I was asked to take it down as the issue was being addressed, so I did) I was in contact with a couple of people, and then Brian came on, so I assume that's where the confusion lies with not getting the sticks when the replacement kite was sent out.

Even though the issue wasn't with the bridle, I sure hope it is tied correctly this time and supports the middle braid if I'm using the stock bridle. I measured all the cell spacing on the braids for the first kite. While I could measure this one, I'd rather wait to fly it and see how it goes.